Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ski309 05-05-06, 12:19 PM	Our DM decided a while back that our town's potionmaker had level 7 potions of mage armor available for 50 gold. Our group decided it was a good deal and bought one for each of us. After our last session tho, our DM realize that he sold us a lvl 7 potion for the price of a lvl 1 potion. He decided to tell us that our potions are actually lvl 1 potions of mage armor and that we can sell them back in town if we don't want them anymore. However, he's still making us do the half-price penalty for selling back items (so I guess we could sell the potions back for 25 gold). I'm at a bit of a loss. I feel it's wrong that he suddenly decided to make the potions we bought lvl 1 potions, but hey DMs make mistakes, no biggie. lvl 5 characters having a level 7 mage armor potion might be a bit of overkill anyway, and according to our DM a lvl 7 mage armor potion normally costs like several thousand gold. What I really have a problem with is that, if we choose to sell back any of our potions, we're losing gold for something that wasn't our fault. I don't know if 50 gold is a good buy for a lvl 1 mage armor potion, I'm new to d&d, but that's not really the point of it. Should the DM be allowed to make us lose money on his mistake, or should we be allowed to sell back the potions at full price?
Felyndaer 05-05-06, 12:23 PM	It was the DM's mistake, not yours. You should be allowed a full refund, as you didn't get what was advertised. That's what I would do, and I like to think I'm a pretty fair DM.
Whim 05-05-06, 12:24 PM	I believe you should be able to get full value back since it was his mistake. However, it's not that big of a deal and as long as he's not constantly doing stuff like that, you'd probably do well to just go with the flow and enjoy the game rather than possibly starting a drawn out arguement over it. 25 gold is not that big a deal. You'll somehow manage, I promise. But you are right to complain if you really must complain.
Illion the Red 05-05-06, 12:32 PM	Well, in the end it is up to your DM. If I was the DM, I would encourage you to use up the potions and probably make some sort of adventure arc out of a spell gone awry that causes the potions to lose potence (caster level) over time. That would make them virtually unsellable, but would motivate you to use up the potions before they became nothing more than water. Since they are consumable 1-shot magic items, it's no so bad a mistake. It's not like he gave you a wand of charm monster for 100 gp or a +5 Adamantine Vorpal Sword for 10,000. People make mistakes. Since you paid a lesser price for these potions, you shouldn't have all that much complaint about getting a similarly lower price for their sale. After all, you did get to use them at a higher level than you paid for and received their benefit for a while.
Bruunwald 05-05-06, 01:26 PM	There's an old DM mindset that says that it's in the best interest of challenge to the party (and medieval realism) to always buy things back at a lower price, just to bust their chops. If it were me, I'd just bust the potion to something comparable to your level, apologize and move on. Or, yeah, I'd probably give you back your 50 gold. (It's not real gold, by the way. Try to keep in mind that it is imaginary and there is plenty of imaginary gold to go around in most any game. It's not like you're really getting ripped off here.) It sounds like you guys are new to the game and that your DM is, too. He's bound to make some mistakes while he gets to understanding the encyclopedic rules while still trying to be fair and give you guys a good time. DMing is hard work. Nobody begins an expert. The best thing you can do for him and for the game, and for your future gaming career, is not to dwell on these little things. Mistakes happen. The forgiving get over them and have more fun. The petty complain a lot and take the fun away from everyone. Use this as an opportunity to be a bigger person.
starfire311 05-05-06, 01:28 PM	Our DM decided a while back that our town's potionmaker had level 7 potions of mage armor available for 50 gold. Our group decided it was a good deal and bought one for each of us. After our last session tho, our DM realize that he sold us a lvl 7 potion for the price of a lvl 1 potion. He decided to tell us that our potions are actually lvl 1 potions of mage armor and that we can sell them back in town if we don't want them anymore. However, he's still making us do the half-price penalty for selling back items (so I guess we could sell the potions back for 25 gold). I'm at a bit of a loss. I feel it's wrong that he suddenly decided to make the potions we bought lvl 1 potions, but hey DMs make mistakes, no biggie. lvl 5 characters having a level 7 mage armor potion might be a bit of overkill anyway, and according to our DM a lvl 7 mage armor potion normally costs like several thousand gold. What I really have a problem with is that, if we choose to sell back any of our potions, we're losing gold for something that wasn't our fault. I don't know if 50 gold is a good buy for a lvl 1 mage armor potion, I'm new to d&d, but that's not really the point of it. Should the DM be allowed to make us lose money on his mistake, or should we be allowed to sell back the potions at full price? really no big deal ... 25gp is nothing, if he is using the recommended wealth, I really have no idea why everyone bought them, it's not like a 7th level potion of mage armoris all that great... most fighters already have better armor. oh and FYI... 7th level potion of mage armor is worth 350gp and most of the time is no better than a 1st level potion of mage armor. Both of them last at least one encounter and the 7th level one may get to last 2 encounters
ski309 05-05-06, 02:52 PM	really no big deal ... 25gp is nothing, if he is using the recommended wealth, I really have no idea why everyone bought them, it's not like a 7th level potion of mage armoris all that great... most fighters already have better armor. oh and FYI... 7th level potion of mage armor is worth 350gp and most of the time is no better than a 1st level potion of mage armor. Both of them last at least one encounter and the 7th level one may get to last 2 encounters yes, i agree, 25gp is nothing. But it's not the amount that we're losing that's the problem, it's the fact that we're losing money because of a mistake not our own.
Whim 05-05-06, 02:56 PM	yes, i agree, 25gp is nothing. But it's not the amount that we're losing that's the problem, it's the fact that we're losing money because of a mistake not our own. Again, I think most agree with you, but as long as the DM doesn't make a habit of it, it's not that big of a deal. I'd say tell the DM you don't like how it was handled and then move on in hopes that something like that doesn't happen again.
ski309 05-05-06, 03:08 PM	Again, I think most agree with you, but as long as the DM doesn't make a habit of it, it's not that big of a deal. I'd say tell the DM you don't like how it was handled and then move on in hopes that something like that doesn't happen again. Let's hope so
ashcat_lt 05-05-06, 03:34 PM	really no big deal ... 25gp is nothing, if he is using the recommended wealth, I really have no idea why everyone bought them, it's not like a 7th level potion of mage armoris all that great... most fighters already have better armor. oh and FYI... 7th level potion of mage armor is worth 350gp and most of the time is no better than a 1st level potion of mage armor. Both of them last at least one encounter and the 7th level one may get to last 2 encounters Actually, a 7th level potion of mage armor lasts exactly 7 hrs. This is most of a normal adventuring day. Drink your potion in the morning and you're covered all day long. If it was me as DM, I'd just eat it. Chalk it up to the half-wit boy that helps around the apothecary shop putting the wrong price tag on the bottles. No you can't have any more at that price, but you can go ahead and use the ones you've got. You can sell them off at half price, but it's half the 7th level price, or 175 gp. I will calculate the full (correct) price of the potions when I look at your character wealth and use that to modify the treasure I hand out for a while. Of course, the solution should be figured between your group. It's not a big enough deal in any case to ruin anybody's fun. If someone is really upset about it, then everybody should get together - before or after a session - and talk it over.
SureFoot 05-05-06, 03:53 PM	I agree with most of the previous posts. In principle, you are every inch within your rights to gripe about this, because it is, as my DM calls it, "DM mistake in player favor"--and when he says this, he recognizes that he goofed, but the goof normally stands (like when a teacher accidentally marks your wrong answer right, most non-draconic teachers will keep that mark). However, being too unforgiving might cause tension and problems in the future as everyone looks at what everyone else does under a microscope. In reality, this is so utterly insignificant that you should not waste your energy. The DM should have handled this "transparently," either by simply making the potions L1 without your knowledge, or by sucking it up using ashcat_lt's method (I was going to suggest exactly the same thing!!). If I were you, I'd use teh potion and say to the DM "just tell me when it expires." So, let me sum up. In principle: give 'em hell, but expect the DM and the group in general to "respond in kind" in the future. In reality . . . don't sweat the small stuff--and this is very, very small stuff.
Ics 05-05-06, 11:40 PM	Your DM could easily have resolved this problem without you ever knowing. As starfire311 already mentioned, the potions are only worth 300 gp more than they were sold for, and, depending on your level and the number of potions you originally purchased, the problem could have easily been solved by lowering the amount of gold you gained from encounters, evening out the power level of your characters' wealth.
starfire311 05-06-06, 12:23 AM	Actually, a 7th level potion of mage armor lasts exactly 7 hrs. This is most of a normal adventuring day. Drink your potion in the morning and you're covered all day long. sorry, for some reason I got it into my thick skull that mage armor was nerfed in 3.5 to be 10 min/level... yeah your DM isn't handling it the best way... if I were him I would let it stand as is... not like it is gonna matter after you use them.
stabs 05-06-06, 02:20 AM	o_O I'm surprised you care that much. Personally I'd handle it in game, as a player or a DM. IF my character knew enough about potions to know that one costing that much should last longer, then I'd go complain to the -shopkeep-, not the DM. If I was the DM, I'd admit my mistake, but tell the players they should rectify it in game. Now there's an interesting little mini story arc, the rip-off merchant! Of course, he offers them some compensation, a +1 sword on the cheap, until the Nystal's Magick Aura wears off and they come back to find he's skipped town!
syntaxerror37 05-06-06, 03:59 AM	Do you have an Unarmored PC in your party? A wizard, sorcerer, or even a monk perhaps? Then just give all the Lvl1 MA potions to him. Chances are he/she will plow through them before they get anywere close to a bracer of armor. If you do hapen to still have one left, well, maybe you can toss it to a needy NPC later on in the game. In short, don't even worry about selling them back, get your full 50 gp out of them in use. As a DM in that situation, I would just let you have them at the lvl I said they were. My mistake, you win. I'll take it out of your hides later ;)
atog_eater 05-06-06, 05:51 AM	its a bit of bad DMing but if hes new to the game then he'll make mistakes (we all make mistakes). your problem isnt that you were ripped off - its that your DM told you you were ripped off. to sort the problem your characters have to realise they were ripped off but without you using your players knowlage. your DM just shouldnt have told you he messed up and everything would have been ok.
Thelandrach 05-06-06, 08:48 AM	I agree that the GM is making a bad call here--he screwed up, he should either let you have level 7 potions or let you have your money back (if I go to the store to buy a $7 bottle of cheap booze and grab a $35 bottle by mistake, and the cashier rings it up as $7, I get to keep the booze once I'm out of the store; it doesn't magically transmogrify into a $7 bottle of booze; likewise, if I decide to violate federal law and sell that bottle of booze, my sale price is based off of the $35 value, not the $7 value, so if your PC's are able to sell the potions back to the vendor at half price, it should be 175 gp (half of the 350 gp price somebody mentioned above), which is really just a good argument for the GM to let you have level 7 potions). If the GM insists that they're 1st level potions which you can sell for 25 gp, sell them back, take the money, and hire the services of a couple bards to write songs & stories about the mischievous, untrustworthy, forgetful skinflint of a shopkeeper who tells poor adventurers they're getting 7th level potions when in fact he's selling them the cheap stuff, then refuses a refund or fair exchange. Make sure that in the songs and stories, things end badly for the shopkeeper.
celtredleg 05-06-06, 10:42 AM	I never penalize the party for my mistakes. I would have let you keep the potions, and paid a little more attention next time. Ask him if he is always going to penalize you for his mistakes?? I agreee that the amount is not very important, but the idea is. If he is a rookie DM, then he should not form bad habits early. If he is a vet, watch out, he may have other bad anit-player habits.
valcarde 05-06-06, 12:44 PM	I agree that the GM is making a bad call here--he screwed up, he should either let you have level 7 potions or let you have your money back (if I go to the store to buy a $7 bottle of cheap booze and grab a $35 bottle by mistake, and the cashier rings it up as $7, I get to keep the booze once I'm out of the store; it doesn't magically transmogrify into a $7 bottle of booze; likewise, if I decide to violate federal law and sell that bottle of booze, my sale price is based off of the $35 value, not the $7 value, so if your PC's are able to sell the potions back to the vendor at half price, it should be 175 gp (half of the 350 gp price somebody mentioned above), which is really just a good argument for the GM to let you have level 7 potions). However: If you brought said item back to the store you bought it from and wanted to return it, you would be given a refund based on what is on the reciept, what you -actually- paid, not the 'normal price of the item'. DM should either give you the same amount of money back, or your could simply say 'That snake oil salesman nailed us bad, we should be careful of this in the future and make sure next time' in an IC concept. Either way, don't obsess over money in a fantasy game, it's not worht having a heart attack over :D
bob_the_great 05-06-06, 02:15 PM	the npc sold you lvl 7 potions for 50 gp. you've discovered them to in fact be lvl 1 potions. threaten to nuke his shop if he won't give you a full refund. what? evil? nah, he cheated you and had it coming. as long as you don't kill him in the process you're safe. still evil? fine, report him to the town guard.
DracoPhoenix 05-07-06, 07:04 AM	Personally I'm not too keen on dms who use dm0 (or similar justification) to fix mistakes, penalising you in the process, when they would penalise you for your mistakes. Ok, he goofed. It happens, but you shouldn't be the ones who ends up paying for it. He should either stand by his ruling and say they are level 7 potions, or offer a full refund on the grounds that you wouldn't have bought them if you knew they were level 1. the "but you can sell them back at half price" bit is a red herring - you could have done that even if he didn't expressly state it. That said, it is a fairly minor issue that shouldn't be allowed disrupt the game. Though if it does snowball, remember player equivilant of dm0 (player0) - a dm with 0 players isn't a dm.
Cifer 05-07-06, 02:01 PM	Don't you think you are going a bit too far? Of course the DM made a mistake and maybe he should have made you get back the full price. On the other hand side, he may as well have thought: "Hey, we are looking at 100 gp (25*4 for assumed 4 party members) difference for a level 5 party which should have about 36000gp in cash and items. This is nothing! I'll just put 100 gp more into one of the next encounters and be done with."
shadowmimiiru 05-07-06, 08:23 PM	Your DM could easily have resolved this problem without you ever knowing. As starfire311 already mentioned, the potions are only worth 300 gp more than they were sold for, and, depending on your level and the number of potions you originally purchased, the problem could have easily been solved by lowering the amount of gold you gained from encounters, evening out the power level of your characters' wealth. Heck what I would have done as a DM is never have told my players till they used the potions and realized oh no! The deal was really too good to be true and they got had! later shadow
ski309 05-07-06, 09:25 PM	just as an FYI, the DM finally gave in to our arguments and will let our characters sell our potions back at full price. I was going to let it slide until he said something akin to "if I fix this mistake then I'll have to fix every other mistake, and I don't feel like doing that." That wasn't cool. I'm not selling mine back tho; that was never the intent, the intent was to make sure we're not penalized for something that wasn't our mistake to begin with.
Pandaemoni 05-07-06, 10:04 PM	I likely would have handled it by saying "You were tricked! These potions aren't nearly as potent as the potionbrewer claimed!" Then let you go back and hassle the merchant for his false advertising. I rivalry with a local potion merchant can be weaved into many different types of plotlines. That said, I assume you're aware that mage armor doesn't stack with regular armor? I've just never seen a party that needed a one mage armor "for each member of the group" since only the unarmored people (or those wearing studded leather or worse armor) really need them.
DracoPhoenix 05-08-06, 05:17 AM	just as an FYI, the DM finally gave in to our arguments and will let our characters sell our potions back at full price. I was going to let it slide until he said something akin to "if I fix this mistake then I'll have to fix every other mistake, and I don't feel like doing that." That wasn't cool. I'm not selling mine back tho; that was never the intent, the intent was to make sure we're not penalized for something that wasn't our mistake to begin with. Glad it worked out. As for the "If I fix this..." line, yes uncool and bordering on immature. Not every mistake needs time to turn back on itself, and often it is probably easier to just do what you can to avoid it happening again. Butter him up - tell him you appreciate his efforts, you know mistakes will happen, but it's how you deal with them that's important. Or you could be a right one and say as it was his mistake in the first place, if he doesn't want to fix mistakes, you should have the level 7 potions - not level 1 and out of pocket as a result :devil:
Nyaz 05-08-06, 05:34 AM	Bottom line: he messed up. But it's no big deal. What if he'd messed up in combat and you all ended up dead? And potions of mage armour are totally ineffective to most of your party members as most of them (I'm assuming) wear armour, and the effects don't stack. He was wrong, but it's not a big deal. Just think of all the calculations he has to make in every single session. Move on and don't dwell upon it.
Sphyre 05-08-06, 10:53 AM	"if I fix this mistake then I'll have to fix every other mistake, and I don't feel like doing that." That's a load of feces. He makes a mistake by giving you level 7 mage armor potions for 50g. He decides to "fix" his mistake by ripping you off. You convince him to fix that mistake by not ripping you off. He's basically saying "If I don't screw you now, then that means I get to screw you over later, because I don't feel like being fair."
geekling 05-08-06, 11:47 AM	That said, I assume you're aware that mage armor doesn't stack with regular armor? I've just never seen a party that needed a one mage armor "for each member of the group" since only the unarmored people (or those wearing studded leather or worse armor) really need them. Like to keep them around, especially for the heavily armoured partymembers. Think it's the getting woken up by attacks in the middle of the night, when those who relies most heavily on their armour is... well not in their armour. After a few times a little habit of keeping a potion of mage armour within reach from the bed, starts looking like a very good idea indeed.
SureFoot 05-08-06, 12:24 PM	I was going to let it slide until he said something akin to "if I fix this mistake then I'll have to fix every other mistake, and I don't feel like doing that." That wasn't cool. Knowing only what you've said to us so far in this thread, this DM sounds, at best, exTREMEly inexperienced and exTREMEly lazy. I don't mind the inexperienced so much--everybody's got to start somewhere. But there is *so much* wrong with his paraphrased statement above that it's difficult to decide where to start with "what's wrong with this statement?" too much effort, so I won't bother. Suffice it to say, he sounds like either this is his first session ever as a DM, or is experienced but just a very, very poor DM. If the former, help him out by pointing him to this forum--there is a lot of good advice here. If the latter, find a new DM who is neither lazy nor unwilling to learn from thier mistakes.
ski309 05-08-06, 12:40 PM	Knowing only what you've said to us so far in this thread, this DM sounds, at best, exTREMEly inexperienced and exTREMEly lazy. I don't mind the inexperienced so much--everybody's got to start somewhere. But there is *so much* wrong with his paraphrased statement above that it's difficult to decide where to start with "what's wrong with this statement?" too much effort, so I won't bother. Suffice it to say, he sounds like either this is his first session ever as a DM, or is experienced but just a very, very poor DM. If the former, help him out by pointing him to this forum--there is a lot of good advice here. If the latter, find a new DM who is neither lazy nor unwilling to learn from thier mistakes.yes, he's a very new DM. He played 2.0 or 3.0 in the past but I think this is his first time ever DMing. Despite that, he's doing a very good job, there are just a few kinks such as this one that need to get worked out every once in a while as he learns. But the combat is fun and the storyline he's building is good, and I know he does his homework beforehand. Yes he's a lil lazy :P, but that usually doesn't affect the game. When it does, like this time, we set him straight.
Commander of Chaos 05-08-06, 03:04 PM	I think that its not the DM's job to know all the rules. None of you saw the mistake, and if you did and didnt say anything, than it serves you right. If you take the loss in stride your DM will appreciate it and might reward you in the future. Also, as everyone has been saying 25gp is nothing, its not that big a deal. you could always keep the potions. You never know when you will be fighting a wraith.
ski309 05-08-06, 03:18 PM	I think that its not the DM's job to know all the rules. None of you saw the mistake, and if you did and didnt say anything, than it serves you right. If you take the loss in stride your DM will appreciate it and might reward you in the future. Also, as everyone has been saying 25gp is nothing, its not that big a deal. you could always keep the potions. You never know when you will be fighting a wraith. I don't mean to be rude but you obviously only skimmed thru the thread, at most. There was no mistake for us to see until our DM said our lvl 7 potions were lvl 1, about 2-3 sessions after buying them. And I already said I'm keeping my potion; in fact, our characters are in town now and I'm buying another lvl1 mage armor potion for 50gp. The point wasn't to save us 25gp, the point was to save us from losing out on things that aren't our fault.
Sphyre 05-08-06, 07:25 PM	I think that its not the DM's job to know all the rules. None of you saw the mistake, and if you did and didnt say anything, than it serves you right. Who are the players to contest the DM and tell them that the NPC is selling them for too little? Much as if he was trying to sell them for 1000g each, the Players would know that was a rip off and not buy them. Also, I think there's a different approach to this. The DM could say the NPC advertised them at 7th level when they were 1st level. When the PCs found it out they could go back to the merchant and get him to talk, or even get the authorities involved for ripping them off. At least in game, 25g is a lot of gold. It's more than a peasant makes in his life. Obviously the PCs are going to be ****** at being ripped. This takes the burden of who's right and who's wrong off the DM and makes the NPC account for the DM's poor actions. As long as the DM treats the situation fairly and doesn't say "nope, he's invincible, you can't get your money back, and the authorities back him up" then things could work out fine.
DracoPhoenix 05-09-06, 08:01 AM	I think that its not the DM's job to know all the rules. None of you saw the mistake, and if you did and didnt say anything, than it serves you right. Intresting (not really, but true) story: Last night we we're playing a game (level 3 party, fairly new players) Someone wanted fire arrows, to which the DM said 5gp for 20, I didn't think that was right (ok, technically meta-gaming, but I didn't know the actual cost) for arrows that did ~1d4+1 fire dmg. Suffice to say we were a bit surprised by the 75gp each cost we were given after the dm looked up. (Though I have a funny feeling arrows are usually sold in stacks of 10-50...) Lesson learned? None, I'm inherently LG (irl), I would have questioned it dispite the fact that I knew we benefitted from the error. I dont hold anything against the OP's party for taking advantage of the dm's lapse of judgement though. How many dms call dm0 at the first sign of a dispute? (btw "I don't" is not the same as general guesstimates (sp?))
Archangel62 05-10-06, 12:34 AM	[QUOTE=DracoPhoenix]Intresting (not really, but true) story: Last night we we're playing a game (level 3 party, fairly new players) Someone wanted fire arrows, to which the DM said 5gp for 20, I didn't think that was right (ok, technically meta-gaming, but I didn't know the actual cost) for arrows that did ~1d4+1 fire dmg. Suffice to say we were a bit surprised by the 75gp each cost we were given after the dm looked up. (Though I have a funny feeling arrows are usually sold in stacks of 10-50...) QUOTE] Stacks of 20 actually, at least if memory serves, depends on which method you decide to use.