Post/Author/DateTime	Post
High Octane 01-10-06, 12:48 PM	Things to note: I love this DM, he is both well prepared and experienced and is the best DM I have ever had. It is also important to note I have been his player for about 3 years and have a lot of respect for him, and he has 22 years of D&D experience verse my 3. Also, we play first edition. This is a weekly game that lasts from 7:30 to about midnight every night. There is one problem in his campaigns: Our characters die. A LOT. In the total span of 3 years, the following deaths (and almost deaths) have occured: Wasps nest killed: Half-Orc fighter, a paladin, and a sorcerer. (3 deaths) Mugging assassins killed: My thief. Mob boss killed: Female Cleric Drowned/sea wolf killed: My ranger (rezzed) and a mentat (1st edition sorcerer) halfling and a cleric. Garfits (mini-gargoyles) killed: My ranger (rezzed, this is #2) and a thief/fighter (Rezzed) Stone Giant killed: My ranger (#3) and a magic user (both rezzed by Deus ex Machina, specifically the minor artifact weapons we were using) Hobgoblins killed: My ranger and the same magic user, both stayed dead. 100 Orcs killed (This was a bad situation where if we hadnt acted, a bunch of slaves would have been taken into a fortress, but we were dumb to attack): My paladin, a cleric, and a magic user/thief. (TPK) A titan: Basically killed my thief, but a minor artifact instead stopped the damage from landing (Had to talk my DM into it) A pirate captain kiled: A samurai, but he was brought back via Deus ex Machina. (Literally. A god raised him. Long story.) A riddle puzzle killed: A halfling cleric played by a non too bright player. Point of note: Up until this point, all characters involved in the campaign were never over level 4. A gang killed: My thief (Rezzed by Deus ex Machina) Some lucky thieves killed: A magic user. A robot (LOOONG story) killed: My thief (rez #2) and a halfling assassin. Some oriental monster killed: My mentat (sorcerer equivelant, we were playing 2 characters each at this point) A demon spawn Coup de Gras'd: My thief, now thief/cleric (Rez #3) A bag of many things killed (via lightning, long story): A ninja and his magic user wife (both player characters, played by different players) A door we were busting all our resources out to open killed (via traps): A cleric and my Bushi (Oriental fighter) The latest death was my thief/cleric and my DM had recently passed a 3 rez limit. He died because he, like the rest of the group that was out, started running from an obviously uber-powerful threat. No big deal, we got away, but my thief/cleric became separated from the rest of the group, and had no skills in survival or finding everyone, and the DM was rolling encounters. Eventually he was robbed by the natives down to his armor and then died from giant ants. Im mad because he was my favorite character and died in a less than fashionable way. What I am actually asking is this: How do I talk to this guy or convince him, IN A MATURE FASHION, that he has to ease up on the challenges? Or is he not REALLY being that bad? I think it should also be noted that some characters have overpowering abilities, one in particular has 24 strength due to a magic weapon, and if you know first edition, 24 strength is reserved for Titans and deities.
Black Kitten 01-10-06, 04:33 PM	Killer DM on the loose! Clearly, your DM tends to make for very hard campaigns and encounters... But also simply have your characters run into bad luck a lot. In our group we have a general rule for that: The lucky rule. The Lucky Rule: You are a lucky adventurer, even though it often doesn't appear so. You survived the dragon landing on your house when you were 4, you were not with your first party when they ran into a group of murderous succibi on lvl 2, you were missed by the titanic avalange and while with this adventuring group you didn't run into the annoyed epic-level wizard that was killing random people. In other words: You do not have all the bad luck in the world. You are not getting yourself robbed by locals when they find you, don't encounter monsters that will kill you (unless it's a plot item) etc, etc, etc. Try passing this rule and gaming may become far less lethal.
High Octane 01-11-06, 08:43 AM	I can handle the idea of a tough killer DM, but honestly, his biggest problem is railroading. Notice all the ressurections from deus ex machina.
Bruenor CrimsonHammer 01-11-06, 09:14 AM	you should talk with your master because the whole thing why this game exist is to make the player of this game to have fun the question is..... do you have fun???
RedWizard 01-11-06, 09:57 AM	24 strength is reserved for Titans and deities Correction, in 1st ed. Titans have a 25 str, storm giants have a 24. Gods vary. That aside, it does seem that you guys occasionally bite off more then you can chew. But the nature of the game is that characters die. In the end it's a piece of paper. I ran in a campaign where the DM refused to let players truly die. He would kill half the party it seemed in every adventure but always brought us back. It started to get ridiculous and was a lot like the movie Groundhog Day with people dropping like flies just to show back up. Have you guys always gone head first at his creatures, perhaps you should try a different tactic. Or just speak with him and point out how often your characters seem to die.
High Octane 01-11-06, 10:33 AM	Tactics? Its FIRST EDITION! There are no tactics! Of course I could be wrong, but I have tried tactics and failed. Tactic #1: Thief tries to get backstab. Ruled that its impossible after combat has started. Tactic #2: Flanking. Only 1 character gets a +2, and it puts someone besides the main tank in range for squishing. Tactic #3: Tripping. No. Tactic #4: Buffs. First edition buffs are pathetic, and there is no spontaneous turning of spells into heals. Every one of the clerics spells is a heal. Trust me, we need every one of them. Tactic #5: Hit the enemy casters. I tried this. This generally is a bad idea since the enemy "casters" turn out to be better at melee than our fighter. These arent human casters, they are monsters. Tactic #6: "Hostile counterspelling." There is no counterspelling in first edition, so I made my own. Wait for an enemy caster to begin casting a spell, and ready a magic missle. Soon as I did it a few times, casters became monsters with spell like abilities instead. Also, any creatures we face that have these kind of abilities have spell resistance. Tactic #7: Running. Do this, you get lost and separated from the group. Separation = death.
babysamurai 01-11-06, 10:45 AM	Correction, in 1st ed. Titans have a 25 str, storm giants have a 24. Gods vary. Yeah, if I recall, Thor had 25 special for Str, due to his natural 25 and his magical girdle Meginjarder.
RedWizard 01-11-06, 10:55 AM	Its FIRST EDITION! There are no tactics! Umm, I'm beginning to see why you keep dying. All your listed tactics include direct combat to beat the opponent. The ed. of the game does not change the goals or the manner in which you handle them. I run a 1st ed. game and often my players have to try negotiation or just flat out avoidance and retreat when faced with superior opposition. Your DM may be trying to get you guys to try a different strategem. Yeah, if I recall, Thor had 25 special for Str, due to his natural 25 and his magical girdle Meginjarder. Yep, gods vary in str depending on the god.
High Octane 01-11-06, 11:39 AM	Negotiation: Although this tactic is definitely worth considering, you really tend to have difficulties negotiating with giant ants. I think its because of cultural barriers. We dont end up facing humans or humanoids very often, or any sort where negotiation is a possibility. The only time we are given an option, its generally "Leave all your belongings." In other words, its a mugging. Otherwise, we were given the option of serving a demon master. Although interesting, we were sadly good aligned. And we do have the option of running, as mentioned. We did that. My thief/cleric got separated from the rest of the group when we were running. Lead to his death. No amount of screaming carried and he had no survival skills. Also: Game rule is you get a free attack ON YOUR BACK (translate, +2 no dex, no shield) if you run. You can disengage and back up without it, but the enemy will be able to stay on you if it chooses. Also, a good percentage of monsters have faster movement speed, And even if the movement speed is the same, they have a good chance of catching up. Plus you can only run as fast as the slowest party member (GOOD ALIGNED, cant leave the chainmail or plate wearers behind.) The Stone Giant was supposed to get us to retreat, unfortunately we didnt catch on since he was blocking where we should have been going.
RedWizard 01-11-06, 12:28 PM	Well did your DM do anything to tip you off that you were entering an area infested with giant ants? Where there is one there are likely 100 in the area. Might be best to not go that way and avoid the situation altogether. The Stone Giant was blocking where you were going? As in your forward path? In that case think outside the box and try a diversion so you can retreat the other direction and rethink your route. One giant means one direction blocked, choose the other one. As for retreat killing your character, one failure should not mean discounting it as a future option. In the end, prudence and forethought will keep you out of 50% of the situations that you cannot retreat from. Get a history of the area while in the town to find out what native fauna exists that you are unprepared to deal with. Look for signs while traveling that something nasty has recently been in the area. Plan out diversions that can be used later when needed to allow retreat, a simple grease spell works wonders when retreating. Your DM should respect these preparations and act accordingly, of course if he just likes springing random monsters on you because he thinks they are cool then it would seem you need a new DM.
Dragen White 01-11-06, 12:29 PM	The problem is really probably the DMs fault, over a prefered way of DM'n. Not to say its wrong its his perogative. All i am saying is it seems that he tends to set you up with artifacts or some item that makes you God like in only one or two abilities, at only like level 4 on average. The problem with this is, when you fight CR4 creatures you will tottally own them, no challenge due to the artifact overpowering you, this can be resolved in the DM's discretion by increassing the CR, or the ER. Unfortuantly, you have only been overpowered in one or two abilities, and the other abilities such as your Con or AC remain at level 4, allowing you to be tottally owned by anything over your level, sure you may deal alot of damage but effectivly you are only level 4 and you will wear out like a level 4 (in the case with a 100 orcs) you may be able to totally turn an orc to mush but you cant take the other 99 on per round as they dish you up damage to you low level hit points. Its an issue that many games face with being unbalanced, getting to powerful to quick without having the experiance to back it up, it ruins experiance output, and all sorts of things. but essentially i think thats where the problem lies.
Loki_God'o'Chaos 01-11-06, 12:30 PM	Personnally, if that all happened in a span of 3 years, Id say your DM is playing fairly lightly. I had a DM a couple years back who made an average of 3 pc deaths and 12 npc deaths a week. So, really, he isnt doing half bad your dm.
High Octane 01-11-06, 12:48 PM	Well did your DM do anything to tip you off that you were entering an area infested with giant ants? Where there is one there are likely 100 in the area. Might be best to not go that way and avoid the situation altogether. It was a random encounter. While my character was sleeping. The Stone Giant was blocking where you were going? As in your forward path? In that case think outside the box and try a diversion so you can retreat the other direction and rethink your route. One giant means one direction blocked, choose the other one. There was no other way in that we were aware of. Underground cave. As for retreat killing your character, one failure should not mean discounting it as a future option. Retreating would end in leaving someone behind in most cases. The only way we know we CAN'T win is when someone gets KO'd. In the end, prudence and forethought will keep you out of 50% of the situations that you cannot retreat from. Get a history of the area while in the town to find out what native fauna exists that you are unprepared to deal with. Look for signs while traveling that something nasty has recently been in the area. Plan out diversions that can be used later when needed to allow retreat, a simple grease spell works wonders when retreating. Maybe. But I get the feeling that its the DM's intent that we have NO idea about our enemies. He rarely sends us anything from Monster Manual 1. Usually its something we as players have never heard of. And we are experienced players. I have yet to have a repeat enemy. (besides certain undead) Your DM should respect these preparations and act accordingly, of course if he just likes springing random monsters on you because he thinks they are cool then it would seem you need a new DM. I think this is the problem. He actually sends a lot of homebrew things at us.
RedWizard 01-11-06, 12:54 PM	There was no other way in that we were aware of. Underground cave. Ok, great case where you need to find another way to get past the giant. Combat wont work so discount it. Giants are not real bright, clever yes, but not high on the IQ chain. Find a way to trick him into leaving his post then go in behind him. There are plenty of low level spells that emulate sights and sounds and even scents. Appeal to his sense of greed, maybe you can bribe him (I know it's a riskier option as your DM from the sound of it will just have him attack you). Other then that it really sounds like you have a DM who railroads your party into encounters with creatures he wants to "try out". You need a new DM.
carioca 01-11-06, 01:14 PM	gosh, the guy is a killer. i had a dm like that back in 2nd edition but we didn't know that game could be better than thatat the time. i may be wrong, not having more details about your campaing, but i think that level 4 players don't mix well with artifacts, god-like strenght and lots of random destruction like that. i mean, are you players having fun with it? my opinion: he's being 'that' bad. i think that you, players, should come to him at next session and explain that it's not fun anymore. there's more in dnd than dying and getting raised.
High Octane 01-11-06, 05:14 PM	Ok, great case where you need to find another way to get past the giant. Combat wont work so discount it. Giants are not real bright, clever yes, but not high on the IQ chain. Find a way to trick him into leaving his post then go in behind him. There are plenty of low level spells that emulate sights and sounds and even scents. Appeal to his sense of greed, maybe you can bribe him (I know it's a riskier option as your DM from the sound of it will just have him attack you). Other then that it really sounds like you have a DM who railroads your party into encounters with creatures he wants to "try out". You need a new DM. Actually our cleric first tried some diplomatic negotations. It almost sounded like it would work. Then a large stone landed on us. Guess what threw it. One thing though, I dont want to make it sound like hes a poor DM. Hes not. This death count problem and railroading is not his entire DMing style. Hes actually very creative and gives interesting plots and is very helpful in character development. Once more, he doesnt get JOY out of killing characters, at least I dont think. He actually goes out of his way to have helpful obvious ways for our characters to come back to life (As stated before with the Deus ex Machina thing) I just think he has trouble giving us challenges without destroying our characters. Its not ENTIRELY his fault in my opinion. First edition had no "ECL" or "CR" that DMs could use as a guideline. Hes not sadistic, or mean, or angry or vengeful, in fact he is a very nice DM who gives a lot of thought and care towards his players and their characters. He just has a SERIOUS railroading problem.
Tonymitsu 01-11-06, 06:31 PM	It seems to me like your DM might need to re-check some of his rulings. From my personal experience: 1. Backstabbing in combat. It's always been my experience that the theif can backstab anyone who is not aware of his presence. My 2E theives used to always have a Ring of Invisibility, Potions of Invisibility, or both. If I am not hiding when combat starts, I pop a potion and gank the first person I see making funny gestures. Failing that, if a thief gets out of line of sight from his enemies, he can freely Hide in the Shadows and backstab them when they get too close. Notable examples I've encountered include darting around a sharp corner in the underground cave, and dashing through a crowded marketplace. 2. Counterspelling. The archer is the counterspell. All any ranger, or theif, needs to do is lock that caster in his sights. Beyond that, 2E magic users were, in my experience, very powerful opponents and it was a matter of your own magic users breaking down their shields (like Protection from Normal Missiles, spell resistance, Fire Sheilds, etc.) in order to effectively deal with them. Also in my experience parties that were not well balanced in terms of classes had a difficult time in general. 3. Buffs. Potions :) Make use of that belt pouch. My best successes were always, without fail, attributed to the help of potions. Although I do agree with you on buff spells in 2E and lower. A cleric without mostly heals and a mage without mostly magic missiles and fireballs was all but useless baggage. Sorcerors on the other hand... ;) In the end, you may have a problem with the DM entirely. I also know from experience that it is very possible to love the way a DM tells a story, creates a plot, or sells a character yet despise the way he runs a game.
Varia 01-12-06, 06:01 AM	He's a killer DM. And he has no sense of game balance if he's giving you wierd artifacts and uber strength at lvl 4. Thats his damage, and I cant help you with that I'm afraid. Retreating from fights- yes, turning your back and running has the free attack problem, but for the pursuit may I suggest that caltrops are your friends? Flee, scatter them behind you, instant slow monster. Getting seperated- have pre-agreed upon strategies, like meet at the big oak, take all lefts, whatever. Should help some. *Hugs* Varia
RedWizard 01-12-06, 08:05 AM	Its not ENTIRELY his fault in my opinion. First edition had no "ECL" or "CR" that DMs could use as a guideline. I run a 1st ed. game and my characters don't die on a regular basis. The ECL and CRs are nice but nothing beats simply being familiar with the creatures and their capabilities vs. knowing what the party is capable of handling. D&D worked well for many years without CRs.
strcpy 01-12-06, 08:26 AM	The problem I see is that your DM treats your character like stat sheet instead of an investment of your personal time. As DM I love to see my player characters grow, get stronger. Make allies and enemies with my NPC's, make mistakes and learn. What your DM needs is, is to be a player again. So he can see what it's like to have his well thought out character being killed for just about any reason.
DarwinX 01-12-06, 08:36 AM	Put the issue of tactics aside for moment, because there's really only 1 thing that matters: Are you enjoying your play sessions? If not, try to convince him to tone it down a bit, and if he's unwilling, quit the campaign. Campaigns that are more frustration than fun simply aren't worth bothering with.
High Octane 01-14-06, 01:47 PM	I found the perfect solution. I asked him to be a player in MY campaign on a different night. He'll start remembering what its like to have a character at the mercy of a DM and the pain of loss again :)
deafbymetal 01-14-06, 02:01 PM	I found the perfect solution. I asked him to be a player in MY campaign on a different night. He'll start remembering what its like to have a character at the mercy of a DM and the pain of loss again :) This is not the answer either. It seems to me that you guys die way too often, and are brought back to life way too often. D&D is not about how many times you've been raised from the dead. It's about learning through experience (therefore, gaining levels) and having fun. If you guys have been playing for three years, and no one has lived past 4th level, I suggest a different DM. That kind of kill ratio can't all be laid at the players feet.
Treebore 01-14-06, 03:48 PM	Yes, DM are like normal people, they may be older (have 22 years of experience) but that doesn't mean they act like it. Your fellow gamers have problems with this too, right? Well, tell him as a group to quit killing your characters all the time, tell him to quit giving you uber stuff at low levels, tell him to quit making you guys so powerful he feels he has to railroad you into situtaions to challenge you. Tell him to really challenge himself, run a game where your characters are "normal" and fight normal encounters, and have a "normal" amount of magic items and wealth. Of course in 1E the real challenge is to figure out what "normal" is. Good luck.
Used-As-A-Shield 01-14-06, 04:04 PM	just a thought, but would switching to a different version of DnD alleviate some of the problems?
SamualT Barronsword 01-14-06, 04:38 PM	Might you or someone else want to try your hand at being DM for a while, say alternating the new DM's campaign with the old DM's campaign every few game sessions? Could be the current DM has been DMing for so long he's forgotten to some extent, what it is that motivates players to keep playing. Reversing roles might be a good thing for him. Besides, the new DM might run an enjoyable game from a fresh perspective that avoids some of the problems that you find annoying, and the old DM, seeing this, might modify his own game to some extent.
ghost_image 01-14-06, 11:41 PM	Whenever the group gets a little tense from a campaign, our DM gives us a random adventure ment to be stupid and funny. ex: We found a fountain with an incaporeal fish from another plain which we proceeded to poke for hours on end. Our reason, how often do you get to poke a ghost fish?