Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Erelamar 08-21-04, 05:19 AM	Well this is a side addition of my series of threads that can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=284986) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=286420) that is usually about the same guy who DMs. Well that player is now playing in a game, and we have a newer, less experienced DM. He's running Return to Temple of Elemental Evil and converting the adventure to 3.5 as we go. So anyway, the usual DM plays a Wizard (as he always does), though instead of playing his usual utilitarian he has gone for trying a specialist (evoker?) based off of Black Mage from the 8-bit Theatre Comic Series, he's even evil as well (Neutral I believe, maybe Chaotic). Anyways, the newer DM allowed it. So as the game progressed and we learned from a little girl in a potion shop that her father (a Wizard) had gone missing around the local Moathouse (bad move letting the fact that the NPC is a Wizard around the Evil Wizard player; who by the way has pretty much brow beaten the rest of the party into doing his will). So we go to the Moathouse and we are attacked by a Blue Dragon, all the Dragon does for the next two hours of game play is fly around and breathe lightning once every 1d4 rounds (there are some ****** off Dwarven Fighters about not getting to do anything for so long), anyway the Wizard calls a general retreat and announces that after "he collects further knowledge and spells they should be capable of returning and defeating the Dragon" (that equivocated to the Wizard needs to gain a level to get to 5th where he'll ready up Fly spells for all the fighters and Fireballs so that they may remedy the Dragon problem). Again OOC the Wizard Player tells everyone he plans on finding the Potion Shop Wizard and either taking his spellbook off his corpse or killing him to get it, and that is the entire drive for the next for sessions for him to do everything. We all laugh... During are time back in the city we watch and learn OOC just how evil the Wizard is (and unstable) as he kills a guy for slighting him (I think he might have been an assassin [spellcasting Rogue?]), also he casts several Mount Spells and Disguise Self and goes sells about a dozen horses around town (one stable manager turned him down, the Wizard found him at a later time away from everyone and killed him as well, taking all his gold). Well we head out to the Temple of Elemental Evil that is infested with Hobgoblin pests and some Gargoyles. We were able to commission a cleric from the local Temple (we didn't have one), anyways he gets fed up after the Wizard casts Sleep on hobgoblins and then begins Coup De Grace'ing them with the Greataxe he carried around everywhere. The Cleric then turns and walks off back to town. OOC we know that the Wizard killed him and got rid of the body because he didn't want anybody besmirching his name in the city. We finish up the hobgoblins/orcs/goblins/gargoyles, then we finally level up. Also we rested a night in the Temple, and the Wizard enjoyed sitting on the throne in the Temple of Elemental Evil (most characters in the group know he's evil, they just don't care, or are evil and like to have him as an ally, or are afraid of him). Also there was a slight altercation with the Sorcerer in the party (who the Wizard Character constantly ridicules IC because he's just a magician not a "real spellcastor" [Good description of a situation: Sorcerer - "Meanoth how do your suppose I should go about gaining more arcane power?" Wizard - "Get a spellbook and a tutor."]), and if not for the Rogue and Fighter calming the Wizard down, I believe the Sorcerer would have died right there. The next two weeks the Wizard says we're spending in the city, everybody pretty much agrees (I'm not arguing with the Wizard), and I believe he makes a Wand of Magic Missile 5th level (unless he managed to loot somebody he didn't tell us about, I wouldn't be surprised) anyways he also makes a ton of scrolls, and off we are back to the Moathouse. Well with the Wizard buffing the entire party with scrolls of Fly/Bull's Strength and throwing an opening salvo of Fireballs from scrolls we gain a huge advantage (the Sorcerer seems to pale in comparison to the Wizard's usefulness, I think that might be because of the player’s inexperience with the class though). The Fighters in the party take the Dragon down in no time. We search the upper complex, fight an ooze, then descend (at the this point I can tell the Wizard player is ripe with anticipation he had been very thorough of his search of the upper Moathouse for the Potion Maker/Wizard's body). We fight some Gnolls, then two members of the party take up watch and two others search each of the two rooms we found. Myself and a Dwarven Fighter find an empty room, the Wizard and the Rogue find the Potion Maker alive. The Wizard is shot with a Magic Missile by the startled potion maker who quickly begins apologizing, the Wizard closes the door...with himself inside, the Rogue stands to block anyone’s entrance into the room (obviously they had had a talk about this beforehand) and the fight begins. The wizard goes for the Old Human Potion Maker with a Shocking Grasp and keeps missing his touch attack (which he complains over seeing as his highest roll is a 13 which he believes should hit the guy). The guy starts shouting, running around gets through the door but the Rogue attacks him, he then tries to Suggestion the Rogue to get him to tell the rest of the party that the he is good, the Wizard continues to attack, fearing that he's running out of time. The Potion Maker goes Gaseous Form (even I at this point was like "why was he trapped down here if he had all these spells?" We are beginning to think that the DM really doesn't want us to kill the Potion Maker, despite the Wizard's blatant statements that he'll have his spellbook). Well our wizard sees to that and starts yelling that the Rogue has been charmed at that our foe is a Vampire! We'll the entire party comes to the Wizard's aid and starts attacking the Gaseous Form. The Potion Maker goes through holes in the ceiling outside, the Wizard and the party chase him through the stairway and continue to shoot him with Magic Missiles and swing their magic weapons. The Potion Maker is still standing then floats into the air, threatening to get away (though the Wizard player vows that the Potion Maker will not), and eventually we do kill him. At this point the newer DM tries to say that the cloud disperses and the there is no body! Well the Wizard player argues over the Gaseous Form spell's description and eventually a body falls to the ground instead. The Wizard goes into a frantic looting spree to get the book and freaks when its not there, the DM has him make a Spellcraft check and he tells him that the Potion Maker had a Contingency that destroyed his spellbook in the case of his death (I was like if he could cast Contingency why didn't he just teleport away?), also when the Wizard pulled the Headband off the corpse and was able to identify it on the spot (the DM allows that certain items Knowledge: Arcana will identify for you) and he learns that its a Headband of CHARISMA +2!!! We'll I can tell at this point the Wizard Player (regular DM that I have written threads about in the past) is practically shaking with rage, and he finally just decides he'll get back at the inexperienced DM, I guess. He explains that his character places his hand on the Sorcerer's shoulder finally expending his Shocking Grasp that he has been holding the whole battle (the whole thing he didn't get to hit him or cast other spells) which drops the Sorcerer into the negatives right out. The rest of the players stare blankly and the Wizard takes the initiative to Levitate into the air. A well-placed Fireball (Rogue actually failed save - the Wizard geared himself for save DCs) kills the Rogue who had been low on hit points from the Dragon fight, and injures the rest of the party. The Cleric (we got player one at this point) goes to try and heal the Sorcerer with hopes of he'll be able to stop the Wizard, the myself and the other Fighter pull our bows and fire which is stopped in Protection from Arrows spell. The Wizard drops another Fireball bringing the Cleric and other Fighter down, I book it, but am cut down with a Scorching Ray. The Wizard then kills anyone that is just unconscious, loots everyone's body including the Potion Maker (that one he also flays and cuts up real good) tosses our bodies in the moat, and on his way back to town he goes and finds some Hunter/Trapper who lives around the Moathouse we had spoken to earlier and kills him as well. Now the Wizard Player explains that his character was prone to violent outbursts (which we had seen OOC somewhat), and that his character was furious over all the work he had put into finding this Potion Maker/Wizard and not seeing a damn thing for it. The Party is completely shocked (though our numbers are split over anger at the DM [because we believe he changed the module to nerf the Wizard because he instigated the potion maker's death] and angry over the Wizard for KILLING THE ENTIRE PARTY). I personally found it humorous, I hadn't really taken the game too seriously anyway, and had nothing really invested in my character. So my question out there is, is the DM (for so obviously nerfing the Wizard out of a Spellbook he worked for) or the Wizard player (who killed the whole party to get back at the DM) in the Wrong?
Kiri Sittori 08-21-04, 08:10 AM	First off, basing ANYTHING off eight-bit theatre is wrong, by definition. That said, if the newbie DM knew what he was getting into, then he's just as guilty as the *entire party* for tolerating the wannabe Black Mage. In short, the sort of mass murder perpetrated by the wizard shouldn't be tolerated. At least, if you care about such things as party cohesion and actually trying to operate "somewhat within" the module's goals...
Derren S. 08-21-04, 08:26 AM	If I were the DM I would throw out the wizard player (actually I never had allowed somewone to play evil). The DM should learn out of this, not letting players getting away with evil deeds. The wizard was a mass murder, so he should have been persecuted, arrested and killed. PS: The easier way to deny the spellbook to the wizard would have been to make the potionmaker a sorcerer.
Sacrusha 08-21-04, 09:21 AM	Honestly, I do not know why nobody in the party did (a) turn the wizard to the authorities (b) kill the wizard off long ago, what is extremely easy to do. Every level 5 wizard is weak, a single power attack with a 2-handed weapon can kill him, as do three arrows shot from a +1 mighty composite bow (protection from arrows is useless against magic weapons). (c) prepare for this, as it had to happen. (a) or (b) are a must for anyone who is good, and any evil character with less than 6 int (c) is a must for any evil character with more than 6 int. The GM only needs to step in if the party is completely unable to handle the character, what was the case. This however is something you simply cannot expect an unexperienced DM to do, so you have to take the responsibility yourself.
Methos of Aundair 08-21-04, 11:01 AM	Normally when a DM steps down to let a newbie DM try his hands at judging, the former DM would help him learn, not hinder it. First off, he should have never chosen an evil character, especially one that is so ruthless. Newbie DM's are still understanding the differences of playing and DM'ing, adding on evil and cruel characters makes it even tougher for the new DM. The first time I DM'd 3rd ed the majority of my players were DM's and helped me tremendously. That campaign is still going after 2 years and it's a blast. Since then I have ran several campaigns and people seem to like my games. Had my first campaign been like this one there is a chance I would have quit DM'ing and become a full-time player. The fact that the newbie DM was, and I agree, intentionally nerfing or robbing the wizard character, was simply he didn't have the experience as a DM to propperly deal with the situation. Had that individual been more experienced he could have dealt with it better. But thats the problem, he doesn't. The DM playing wizard appears to have been intentionally making it hard on the new DM, rather than helping him learn the ropes. Without experience as a DM he was attempting to get back at the wizard character the only way he knew how. Yes, it was wrong, but so was the former DM who took advantage of the newbies inexperience.
trapspringer 08-21-04, 11:09 AM	This kinda thing is always the DMs fault. It was a newb's mistake, how ever, and your more experienced DM should know better. But, the fault still lies in the curret DM for allowing a character who is not motivated to work with the party. I have only done this once, I am DM. PC: My character is a skitzo who doesn't like working with people or adventuring, and kills things that make him mad. Kinda like black-mage. DM: Make a will save. PC: 19+4 is 23. Not bad for a level 5 wizard, huh. DM: Yea, that is a good save. You die. Roll up a character who DOES want to adventure with a group.
Enslaved DM 08-21-04, 02:46 PM	Both dropped the ball. The newby for nerfing the Wizard and the Wizard for creating a character like that with a newby DM
Seraph of Babel 08-21-04, 03:16 PM	I think the wizard player, being an ex-DM, should have been more helpful to the newbie DM. It seems that he may be just taking advantage of the situation that the DM is inexperienced. How did the wizard go around murdering villagers without repercussions from other parties of do-gooders? The dead cleric - his fellow clerics are going to come looking. With divination spells, it's only a matter of time before they find out what happened... Also the wizard did not "work" for the spellbook. Just because the player wants it, takes steps to get it, doesn't mean that the DM is obliged to give it to him... What makes the wizard think that the potion maker has the spellbook with him in the temple? If he was kidnapped with his spellbook, then it's probably confiscated by his kidnappers. And just because an NPC says the potion maker is a wizard doesn't necessarily mean that he is really one. NPCs may not even be able to distinguish between wizard, sorcerer and adept. I admit some of the newbie DM's ruling is a bit cheesy, but what the wizard player should do - and he ought to know better since he was a DM - is to talk to the DM OOC and sort out any issue instead of creating DM-player conflict in-game to the detriment of other players. Personally, I think both have problems. But the DM is new, so perhaps it's understandable if there are glitches in the game. I'm not so sure about the wizard player. It may be in-character, but nobody would trust the wizard enough to adventure with him... then he can play alone and DM his own wizard. Oh, and with the clergy and do-gooders after him, he wouldn't survive.
Lord Arawn 08-21-04, 04:53 PM	Well it appears I may have to come to my defense on this one, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my Player’s (Erelamar) threads in the past about my game, I believe in this situation the rest of you might need to know some facts before passing judgement so quickly. When this group was formed I was invited in, I did not stop running my game, its on a different day. Also half the party (including the DM) are a group of people I have never roleplayed with before. In my talks with the DM he seemed to have a descent grasp of the rules (though not an optimizer by any means), not inexperienced. So I decide to create an evil character for a change, and do (the 8-bit theatre was actually more of joke and in passing). Once we get into the game I quickly learn that the DM is totally into the mentality of DM vs. Players. He passes 95% of the saves that the Sorcerer and myself through at his monsters (effectively making the Sorcerer look useless; his flaming sphere spell might have cause about 8 points of damage in all four game sessions). Another example is when we first go to fight the Blue Dragon. It Flyby Attacks twice at the party members in the courtyard, I get around to my action and I hold one to cast Web the next time the Dragon flies through the courtyard…it never does again, just starts circling and shooting lightning down at us. It wouldn’t even come down to get more than one person in its breath weapon. I dare say that brims of metagaming…from the DM. About the Potion Maker: we discover from his Daughter, who is running the Potion Shop, that he has gone missing and that he is a Wizard, I subtly inquire as to the location of his Spellbook and she flat out tells me that he always has it with him, so I am thrilled. I also did not kill throngs of people in town, just two. One was some sort of Rogue/Assassin secret agent for some group of bad guys that I ferreted out on my own. I managed to get him alone and killed him, disposing of the body. The stable guy, well he also just went missing (no witnesses, I’m not stupid) and as I figured the city guard isn’t going to pay for powerful divination just for one missing guy. As for the Cleric, I killed him away from the group (as I did virtually all my evil acts) and disposed of his body. I separately went to his Temple alone and tell his clergy that we are sorry but he had fallen in battle to the Hobgoblins (I of course have the proper protections against Detect spells cast on my person at the time), that’s why they don’t follow up. I was not quite the completely foolish spree killer I was quite made out to be…though I did have a temper, and was ready to kill the Sorcerer that one time, I’ll admit. Again this whole time I just affixed that the DM was just DM vrs Players, not inexperienced, which I think is still debatable from the way he was talking. Finally, one of the few things that irked me was the favoritism that the DM was showing his two buddies who were best friends in the game as well, always having each other’s back (LE Fighter/ CN Rogue), they probably would have killed me if they had gotten the chance. Also I discovered IC and OOC that before we even returned to the Moathouse that they had found Rings of Invisibility…no not ring, RING(S). Which I highly doubt there is one 20,000gp magic item this early in the module let alone TWO! I figured that you didn’t know that Erelamar, because I know they weren’t telling and I’m fairly tight lipped as well, but I didn’t care, it wouldn’t save them from me if it ever came to that. So we go and fight the Dragon and thanks to me we win, fairly boring fight really. At this point I do become fairly meticulous in searching for the Wizard. I mean I’m looking everywhere (I also had paid off the Fighter/Rogue pair to turn a blind eye if he should be around and promised that they would get his gold and other magic items beyond the Spellbook (if he had any)). Once we go downstairs I do find him and it pretty much unfolds as Erelamar describes, and he does have me make a Spellcraft that tells me that I have figured out that the Potion Guy has used a CONTINGENCY Spell to destroy his Spellbook should something happen to it! There is no way that a minimum of 11th Level Wizard would ever get trapped in the Moathouse by a CR 5 or 6 Dragon, does anybody agree! I mean he doesn’t even just tell me that I don’t find it, he explicitly tells me its destroyed. Then when I go to inspect the Headband he tell me it’s of CHARISMA! Well I was ready to pack my bags and leave at that point, but decide that my character (who has had temper tantrums in the past) would probably do something radical. Also I will admit I knew what I did was wrong, but was so fed up with the game that I thought the DM needed a little taste of what he had been doing to the players (again I know its wrong, and I wouldn’t have allowed it in my game, but then again I would never have pulled the kind of stuff this DM did). Thought that might give people a new perspective.
Remnant 08-21-04, 07:58 PM	If the DM in the above scenario were experienced at all, I would perhaps be harsher on him, but as I understand it, this DM was still learning the ropes. As such, the DM-turned-player, mechanically at least, easily outclassed and overwhelemed the rookie DMs abilities. Given this situation, I find the rookie's actions regarding the victim mage to be within reasonable expectations, though by the same token his actions made the game unpleasant for at least some of the players involved. Regarding the DM's favortisim, I fully understand the frustration this caused- it is definitely one of my most disliked DM traits, and IMHO, even a rookie DM should have the common sense to know better. (Of course, there are a few instances where this is more acceptable, such as doing so as not to alienate a new player in a group of vetrans, etc.) It is unfortunate that this rookie feels the need to beat the players. Players are usually far more inventive than the DM in finding ways to kill their characters anyway. Regardless or the silly nature of the game however, the vetran DM's actions as a player leave a bad taste in my mouth. If I were him, I would worry about his players following his example in his own campaign. While he would likely be better able to manage such players, having excessively evil characters that kill every NPC that angers them and even party members gets very old very quickly, as that is often all such characters ever manage to do.
Cymraegmorgan 08-21-04, 10:24 PM	I agree with Remnant on his last point, gratuitous killing of NPCs is boring. Another in the long list of reasons I do not allow evil PCs. Sounds like the Wizard Player is just a bad sport.
Telperion 08-22-04, 02:36 AM	Having read trough the posts I thought I'd add in my two copper pieces. Lord Arawn: I'm mainly curious as to why you didn't try and correct the obvious mistakes your DM was making? Since you are more experienced it is your place to advice and correct a less experienced DM when necessary. This doesn't mean that you should slap him on the wrist for every little detail, but there were some very obvious mistakes been made there. When the group takes a break that would be an excellent time to have a chat. Feeling annoyed isn't an excuse. Erelamar: You made your point, and it was fairly well articulated. However, I would have loved to see some constructive criticism. As it is your original post borders on a rant, and that's never a good starting point. From that point on you can only expect two kinds of replies: friendly and hostile, which leaves a whole lot of posts out of this thread.
ImmortalBlueMage 08-22-04, 04:46 AM	First of all, playing an Evil character in TEMPLE: Mistake. Allowing an Evil character in TEMPLE: Also a mistake. Arawn: I've got to be honest, I'm really not coming down on your side here. I realize I'm not privvy to everything, but in the story told here you come off as petty, immature, domineering, unimaginative, and generally unconcerned with the welfare of the group as a whole. Although the DM in question was obviously in way over his head, it looks to me like you were taking advantage of his inexperience, and when he finally attempted to curb you (by poorly thought out means, I'll concede), you threw a temper tantrum and ruined everyone else's game.
Seraph of Babel 08-22-04, 10:41 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arawn Also I will admit I knew what I did was wrong, but was so fed up with the game that I thought the DM needed a little taste of what he had been doing to the players (again I know its wrong, and I wouldn’t have allowed it in my game, but then again I would never have pulled the kind of stuff this DM did). Well, yes. I can see why you may be fed up with the DM... but still, by killing the other PCs, you are messing up with other players, not the DM. If you have some issues with his DM style (metagaming, favoritism, etc.), talk to him. If he doesn't listen and you couldn't stand it, then walk. You can DM your own game. Try not to take OOC unhappiness into the game world.
Crossover-Chronicler 08-22-04, 11:51 AM	Well it appears I may have to come to my defense on this one, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my Player’s (Erelamar) threads in the past about my game, I believe in this situation the rest of you might need to know some facts before passing judgement so quickly.Well, I don't see how this makes you look that much better, but I'll go with it and respond to your own version of events.When this group was formed I was invited in, I did not stop running my game, its on a different day. Also half the party (including the DM) are a group of people I have never roleplayed with before. In my talks with the DM he seemed to have a descent grasp of the rules (though not an optimizer by any means), not inexperienced. So I decide to create an evil character for a change, and do (the 8-bit theatre was actually more of joke and in passing).But you still made a character who seems to murder at the drop of a hat, and unleashes excessive violence on innocents and allies as eagerly as upon your enemies. Even BM only attacked his companions when they did something to set him off.Once we get into the game I quickly learn that the DM is totally into the mentality of DM vs. Players.Which is common for new DMs, and could have been handles as well or possibly even better by voicing OoC complaints instead of just waiting 'til it got to be too much and then bombing the game.He passes 95% of the saves that the Sorcerer and myself through at his monsters (effectively making the Sorcerer look useless; his flaming sphere spell might have cause about 8 points of damage in all four game sessions). Another example is when we first go to fight the Blue Dragon. It Flyby Attacks twice at the party members in the courtyard, I get around to my action and I hold one to cast Web the next time the Dragon flies through the courtyard…it never does again, just starts circling and shooting lightning down at us.That's poor DMing, and should have been addressed to the DM instead of added to the list of reasons to wipe out the party. I'm not sure why the DM bothered, since it's wuite likely the dragon could have escaped the web in any case. It wouldn’t even come down to get more than one person in its breath weapon. I dare say that brims of metagaming…from the DM.That's right - of course, the Dm must by necessaity metagame all the time; but that's not the point. The point is that you acted out instead of either voicing a complaint of just diotching the game.About the Potion Maker: we discover from his Daughter, who is running the Potion Shop, that he has gone missing and that he is a Wizard, I subtly inquire as to the location of his Spellbook and she flat out tells me that he always has it with him, so I am thrilled.And you decided the thing to do was to kill him, an obvious plot hook most likely designed to get you into the temple and/or provied additional information while he's at it?I also did not kill throngs of people in town, just two. One was some sort of Rogue/Assassin secret agent for some group of bad guys that I ferreted out on my own. I managed to get him alone and killed him, disposing of the body.Why?The stable guy, well he also just went missing (no witnesses, I’m not stupid) and as I figured the city guard isn’t going to pay for powerful divination just for one missing guy.But why kill him? You'd apparently already scammed several others out of their wealth...As for the Cleric, I killed him away from the group (as I did virtually all my evil acts) and disposed of his body. I separately went to his Temple alone and tell his clergy that we are sorry but he had fallen in battle to the Hobgoblins (I of course have the proper protections against Detect spells cast on my person at the time), that’s why they don’t follow up. I was not quite the completely foolish spree killer I was quite made out to be…though I did have a temper, and was ready to kill the Sorcerer that one time, I’ll admit.Still sounds like it to me. Multiple homocides based on only the shakiest of motivations ("He wouldn't buy my fake magic horses," for example).Again this whole time I just affixed that the DM was just DM vrs Players, not inexperienced, which I think is still debatable from the way he was talking.So you took it out on the other players?Finally, one of the few things that irked me was the favoritism that the DM was showing his two buddies who were best friends in the game as well, always having each other’s back (LE Fighter/ CN Rogue), they probably would have killed me if they had gotten the chance.And so your first target of choice was the Sorcerer? Also I discovered IC and OOC that before we even returned to the Moathouse that they had found Rings of Invisibility…no not ring, RING(S). Which I highly doubt there is one 20,000gp magic item this early in the module let alone TWO!Which is a. OoC motivation, b. Not even remotely close to explaining your attacks against the other party members even if it weren't, and c. Possibly an attempt to bring the less capable PCs closer to the power level of the wizardd who seemed to be running things.I figured that you didn’t know that Erelamar, because I know they weren’t telling and I’m fairly tight lipped as well, but I didn’t care, it wouldn’t save them from me if it ever came to that.And apparently id didn't.So we go and fight the Dragon and thanks to me we win, fairly boring fight really. At this point I do become fairly meticulous in searching for the Wizard. I mean I’m looking everywhere (I also had paid off the Fighter/Rogue pair to turn a blind eye if he should be around and promised that they would get his gold and other magic items beyond the Spellbook (if he had any)). Once we go downstairs I do find him and it pretty much unfolds as Erelamar describes, and he does have me make a Spellcraft that tells me that I have figured out that the Potion Guy has used a CONTINGENCY Spell to destroy his Spellbook should something happen to it! There is no way that a minimum of 11th Level Wizard would ever get trapped in the Moathouse by a CR 5 or 6 Dragon, does anybody agree! I mean he doesn’t even just tell me that I don’t find it, he explicitly tells me its destroyed. Then when I go to inspect the Headband he tell me it’s of CHARISMA!That's tell me that he was a Sorcerer, and he never really had a spellbook; everything else was just misinformation (do you really expect a little girl to differentiate between a real Wizard and a professional Sorcerer who carries a spellbook for appearances?) But I'll admit that overall it was a poor way to run the encounter; had it been me, I'd have made him weaker, and had his spellbook contain few if any useful spells (several of them from whatever schools you had banned as evoker, and most of the rest devoted to the potion-maker's craft: buff spells that are more useful to the other party members).Well I was ready to pack my bags and leave at that point, but decide that my character (who has had temper tantrums in the past) would probably do something radical. Also I will admit I knew what I did was wrong, but was so fed up with the game that I thought the DM needed a little taste of what he had been doing to the players (again I know its wrong, and I wouldn’t have allowed it in my game, but then again I would never have pulled the kind of stuff this DM did).How did the DM get a taste of anything? You flip out anmd wipe out the party, why does a DM who's as "DM vs. Players" as you say he is even care?Thought that might give people a new perspective.Not really.
Kilamar 08-22-04, 12:22 PM	Looks to me that all PCs and NPCs were afflicted with feeblemindness. Kilamar
Cymraegmorgan 08-22-04, 03:57 PM	Crossover-Chronicler's post was a ideal bit of deconstructionism. Great thoughts. C-C caught something I missed. Arawn, if you wouldn't allow players to pull in your games what you pulled in this Novice's game, then even more heaps of shame upon your head. I DM 90% of the time. When I play in another's game I strive to be supportive of the DM, even when they make obvious mistakes. After the game is the time to talk about mistakes and differing opinions on style. Being a good sport in this situation means helping everyone have a good time, not trying to give the DM a hassle by killing your fellow players. Imagine how fun the game might have been if you had not been so obviously intent on showing up the new DM. If I were Erelamar, I would steer clear of your games. If this s how you act as a player, Arawn, I cannot imagine that your DMing skills are not just as offbalance. Keyword for DnD, as I have said before, is fun for everyone.
Veton 08-22-04, 06:47 PM	DM (New) or DM (now player) in the Wrong? Both. However, I feel that the DM-turned-player was a little more "in the wrong." The new DM obviously shouldn't have metagamed against the DM-turned-player, or played favorites. But the previous DM played an Evil character, which can be a little hard for a new DM to handle. He also pushed the other player's characters around, which (speaking from experience) isn't fun for them. He also played "Psychotic Evil" which might explain why the new DM punished him in that manner. And at the end, instead of killing NPCs in a rage (which would make more sense), he kills his party members, which again, isn't that much fun.
NeoZanmato 08-22-04, 07:29 PM	Hey I feel your pain, I really do. I'm even going get into the details of my Dm gone PC
Enslaved DM 08-23-04, 02:59 AM	The greater fault lies with player. The DMs wrongful nerfing was provoked by his running roughshod over everyone and everything. It was the powermongering of the player that caused the problem, which the DM handled by nerfing his loot instead of having the consequences of the character's repulsiveness catch up with him.
FreeTheSlaves 08-23-04, 07:35 AM	The newbie DM needs to read the DMG, particularly the "how to run an adventure" chapter (good/bad structure). Seriously, every good dm has read it (or something of comparable quality) cover to cover. Ditch the antagonistic DM v Player stuff, it is absent in the best adventures. Ex-DM player needs to go. He should have been setting the highest standard of roleplaying and facilitating good play with helpful advice (at discreet moments). Instead he raped the adventure with an overbearing personal dominance and exploitation of the others ignorance of the rules (2 weeks= 1 wand + 10 scrolls). Oh well, you'll just have to chalk up as experience.
Mel Kio 08-23-04, 05:24 PM	Most of what the DM did wrong was due to inexperience but I seriously doubt he's trying to ruin the game for everyone. On the other side, the wizard/ex-DM has experience yet ruins the game for everyone. It could be alignment, but it's probably due to a personal issue with the person being unable to control the DM and wanting to end the game. Not cool.
MysterYvil 08-31-04, 04:06 PM	...Another example is when we first go to fight the Blue Dragon. It Flyby Attacks twice at the party members in the courtyard, I get around to my action and I hold one to cast Web the next time the Dragon flies through the courtyard…it never does again, just starts circling and shooting lightning down at us. It wouldn’t even come down to get more than one person in its breath weapon. I dare say that brims of metagaming…from the DM.An INT 14+ creature learning from its mistake, then capitalizing on its strengths and the party's weaknesses is not metagaming in most people's books. It's playing the creature properly.
a18ffe 08-31-04, 05:41 PM	LoL. That was great! At least he was *somewhat* playing in character...he should have at least kept the fighter alive. Now who's right or wrong.... The DM was in the right. His world...his campaign. You shouldn't be using OOC information anyways. No matter how rediculous the explaination is, there is always a reason why the potion maker couldn't escape, or why he has a contingincy on his spellbook. Your character's just don't know. After the *spite* killing. Without a beat...he should have said roll up new characters.
Phrennzy 08-31-04, 07:16 PM	"The stablehand turns into a dragon and eats you!" That would have been the end of that sociopathic wizard. I would expect better behavoir from an experienced DM taking a turn at playing.
danielinthewolvesden 08-31-04, 07:58 PM	Boot the Wizard player from the game. Seriously- he's a bad sport, he plays with OOC knowledge, he's a bully, and he's disruptive. He also killed a PC for no good reason- thus lessening that players fun. He also choose to be Evil. the DM didn't do that, he did. I am glad the Wizard came in here and posted- it confirmed that he is a poor sport and a bully powergaming player. Sorry, guy. No hard feelings, but it is right there in your own words. Next- to the Newbie DM: TttToEE isn't a very good module (altho famous). And- NO EVILS . Never allow a CN or an Evil PC into a game if you aren't extremely experienced. Take this from a DM with 30 years experience.