Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alathriel 11-30-04, 10:23 PM	Hi there. My group plays a variety of games, but when it comes to D&D our usual DM only likes to run games where we start off at 8th level+. His reasoning is that things are more interesting at 8th level+, and he can do more as a DM. Plus he hates the idea of "waiting" for characters to do all the levelling up. Back in high school I came from a group of gamers who tended to only play Level 1 campaigns and build up. If a character died later on, then he could maybe start off at the same level of the group, though sometimes he'd be a level or two behind. Sometimes he'd start off at Level 1 again and just have to hang in the back a little and try to take it slow. We're going to be starting a new campaign in the next two months, and I am certain he wants it to be high level. Frankly, I don't find it rewarding to start off at a level that I haven't properly earned. I don't have any 3rd edition characters of 8th level, nor do I have any 2nd ed. chars I'd want to convert. Last time we ran a campaign he refused to budge when it came to the 8th level+ issue. He would absolutely not do level 1. I just don't enjoy playing from higher up and just going higher. I think it takes alot of the great roleplaying out of D&D. When characters are level 1 they meet one another, learn to depend on each other as a team, and learn each other's strengths and weaknesses as they grow and face challenges. I've played with this current group for 2 years, but I'm not sure how we may come to a reasonable solution. Am I just too picky, or do I have a valid point? Any suggestions in how I can convince my DM to start a Level 1 campaign? P.S. In the past 2 years I have never seen him run a level 1 campaign where our characters actually grow and gain levels up to level 8, not do we ever have a longlasting campaign that lasts more than 5 or so sessions. They are more like mini-campaigns. So I'd really love for something like this to happen. Thanks for the help!
sgingell 11-30-04, 10:26 PM	Run a 1st level game yourself. So long as he's the only one willining to put forth the effort to run something you'll have to live with his preferences. Alternately, if your heart is set on playing rather than DM'ing, convince another member of your gaming group to run a 1st level game. -Stephen
devinmdp 11-30-04, 10:37 PM	It's his choice as the DM. Most campaigns don't last long enough for people to experience the higher levels organically. In that case, it makes sense that they'd want to sample the higher levels. Personally, my campaigns last for years and years, so I have the luxury of starting my people at 1st level. But overall, it shouldn't matter. While I agree your situation is the ideal, unlike 2nd edition, 3rd edition D&D does a much better job of scaling up to match higher level players well. In other words, even at 8th level a group of PCs can get a can of whoop-arse easily opened on them and a good party will not survive if it does not cooperate and learn to depend upon each of its members. The problems that come with starting at high level are: 1. The DM has not graduated into the position. He doesn't know the PC's tendencies and capabilities by having run the PCs for a long time. He also may have no idea how to balance high level encounters. They are much harder to handle. 2. The PCs will be prone to take character builds that might have a "dues paying" process at lower levels that reaps rewards at higher levels. For example, low level monks or certain multiclass builds or some PrCs like Mystic Theurge. 3. The DM will have had no chance to fashion the type of magic items and treasure the PCs have accumulated. This means that the PCs will be entirely at their leisure to equip themselves with whatever uber-combinations they can come up with. Devin
Cold Napalm 11-30-04, 10:44 PM	Humm I always considered level 5-12 to be mid level games, not high. Also nit picking aside, where does it say that level 8+ characters can't have thing develop in game? If you can't wrap your head around your level 8 character learning something new with a new group of adventurers, I think you might be the one with a problem. Finally you said that your games last a short time right? Like 5 sessions? Umm you know what, playing a level 1 character for 5 sessions gets you nowhere and you'll find the experience boring and the DM will find it boring (in fact I bet he already has which is why he won't do that).
75RD Drum Clip 12-01-04, 12:29 AM	As a DM, I can say form my own experience that low levels can a little stagnant when you play with the same players all or most of the time. In my case I have played with my group for 17-18 years. I prefer high levels, though sometimes I can think of good not overly lethal low level adventure.
MonkeyPaladin 12-01-04, 01:15 AM	Well, he's the DM, so if he's doing the work he ought to be able to decide these sorts of things. If you have a low level character you like, level him up a bit and give him more equipment. You can still develop the character and the group will still have some dependency on each other, especially if the DM makes the challenges appropriate to your level. It's not as if eighth level characters had unlimited resources or are major powers in the world. What do you feel like you're missing by not starting at first level? I know it is an easier starting point for character creation, and maybe it's easier to do a background for someone just starting out, but it's not this great difference. It's not something I would make an issue out of in any case; if starting level is your biggest problem the DM's probably pretty good. My question is, if you've known him for two years and you have a stable group, why the mini campaigns? 5 sessions, unless really long, isn't enough time to develop a really good party no matter what level you start at. It's more satisfying if you run the same characters for a while.
DylanW 12-01-04, 01:20 AM	It's not being picky to want to play a low-level game. A low level game is definitely different than a high level game. I've played with a lot of people who like higher levels, but I'm a fan of DMing and playing lower level games for several reasons. (Granted, a lot of these reasons are probably biases or misunderstandings.) Lower-level characters are underdogs. They have to improvise because they don't command a massive array of powers. (Then again, I feel munchkiny if I create anything that even feels slightly overpowered, and I don't have the patience for spec'ing out characters) This also means that low-level characters are more specialized. Magic items, high modifiers, and massive amounts of skill points can combine at later levels to blur the distinctions between classes. Thus, while a low-level party that's missing a key type of character might be hurting, a higher-level party can work around it. And, of course, you can watch characters grow into their abilities. In some ways, you take them for granted if you can just start out at level 10 or 20 any time you want. A lot of this is just because I have a preference for low-fantasy and want characters I can identify with. Someone who plays as more of an escapist hobby, or likes high-fantasy, would probably rather play a high level game. If you want to introduce low-level games, try offering to DM a low-level game in between one of the mini-campaigns. If you like to play lower-level games, you will probably do a better job of running it than someone who's stuck on high-level games will do (assuming you have the requisite playing/DMing experience) because you won't be trying to force a high-level playing style into a low-level game. If you do it well, perhaps you'll get a little more support for the genre (and if things go really well, you might even try running longer campaigns, or carrying characters over between campaigns, so you get the satisfaction of getting to level up and use a character over the course of several levels).
Cold Napalm 12-01-04, 01:26 AM	Dylan, you know I HATE low levels games for the exact reason that if your missing a character type, you end up hurting. It usually means somebody has to play something they don't wanna or the party suffers.
StevenO 12-02-04, 12:16 AM	If starting with higher level characters they should have been built one level at a time starting from first (without equipement of course). Since everyone should know what their characters looked like at any given level I'd recomend asking for a "flashback" adventure where you use your characters at a level lower than what they started playing. The DM may need to keep any PCs from getting killed and could assign future penalties if any would be killed. Adjusting equipment down shouldn't be too hard and any treasure gained would simply be things you already have at a higher level. It should be used as a way of advancing whatever story there is and also showing the PCs how they got to where they are.
Cold Napalm 12-02-04, 03:37 AM	Or you meet somebody new while in your travels... Nothing says all adventuring parties MUST start off together at level 1. What exactly stops a level 8 character from interacting with another level 8 character? NOTHING. Why would like minded low level people band up but not high ones? Humm see no reason really. Going level by level is a waste of time in my opinion...just have a back story and maybe some memorable adventurers. Heck you could newly meet those other level 8 character to form your party too...what a concept!!! Really I don't see why that is such an issue that people wanna have people know each other from level 1...it's like saying all your friends must have known you since you were 3 or they can't be your friends.
Kyy'Dakh 12-02-04, 10:58 AM	I tend to prefer mid to high level campaigns, but even I need a change in pace once in a while. Sometimes it's more rewarding to overcome obsticles with limited supplies and improvisation, rather than routine abilities. Example: "We tricked the monster into falling into the pit trap by covering it up with the wizard's obscuring mist spell. It climbed out, but it was injured enough for the fighter to finish the job."
Lincoln Hills 12-02-04, 04:55 PM	I prefer to start my character at low levels, and to earn XP fairly slowly. Successfully climbing up from the bottom gives you a sense of having overcome adversity, and your personality tends to be developed a lot more in the first few levels - sets the tone, you know. And each level you earn feels like a reward rather than an entitlement.