Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Erelamar 08-02-04, 03:18 AM	This is a continuation of the last thread with a different situation, same group, same DM. You may want to read the very first part to catch yourself up with the campaign environment. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=284986 I just want to know what some of you people would think if thrown in this situation as players. Is the DM Nerfing the players to make his own villains tougher (which some in our group complain about), or perhaps is he beating us over the head with impossible situations to advance his own plot, or are we making too big a deal of it? To start off, I will say that the DM hates the idea of Psionics and Magic overlapping (despite how game breaking it could be), he chooses to use the Psionics are different approach (by the way, this whole event took place back in 3.0). Also in the beginning no one was allowed to play psionic characters because the region we started in they weren’t prevalent, later about perhaps a session before this one, we learned that psionic characters could now be made if our own died, or someone really wanted to give up their current character and make one. No one died and no one changed in that session, then this one happens. Anyway, we continue on our little quest, found two jewels already, going on our third. Our “compass” homes us in on the next one, but its detection system fails just as we enter the forest that surrounds a particular city, we quickly discover that the rest of our magic items are failing us, we have entered a Null Magic Zone. By the way my Barbarian died, and I am playing a Wizard now who focuses completely on Polymorph Other (3.0), and had bumped out incredibly high DC’s for the saves, and I am loving turning things into turtles. So as you can imagine, I just became a 12th level commoner now in the Zone. So we continue on to the city, unsure of how we will find the 3rd jewel here. On are way we run into one of the DM’s reoccurring NPCs who is heading to the same place. He’s an assassin (or at least we believe he is), we met him when he was in the employ of a King who possessed one of the jewels, we were able to roleplay that one into our hands (though we have fought with him and believe him to be our level, which ultimately pleases most of the group). So the Assassin mentions that this city has been in a Null Magic Zone for the better party of a century, some day in the past it just sprung up, very strange. We ask him why he’s here and he says, “business.” We split ways there and head into town on separate paths (we think the Assassin slipped over the walls because he didn’t seem to want to go anywhere near the gate). So at the gate of the city we are drilled with questions by the guards before being allowed into the city, and escorted to the only inn for foreigners. We quickly notice a very oppressive (quasi-communistic type) city that is in the grips of some sort of tyrant. We have papers from the Arcane Order (big mage guild in the world that everyone recognizes) that should get us in to speak with the King, he’s busy that day so we are scheduled in for tomorrow. As we spend the day in town we quickly get the feeling that the city is pretty somber and hateful of the rulership. During the night, which there is a curfew, one of party members slips out of the inn and goes on a roof-jumping spree. He dodges guards but catches notice of strange dark cloaked figures darting from side street to side street. So he follows them to one of the residences (they all look exactly the same), and sets up surveillance, he spots like thirty people dodge patrols and enter the domicile’s basement, a little latter a strange shadow moves through the streets and slips into the basement after them, he only barely notices the figure at all. Half an hour passes then he catches the shadow for a second as it departs, then the people start leaving. We quickly realize that it was probably the townsfolk hiring the assassin to do something (probably kill the King). So we go and see the King, we enter his royal great hall and find it lined with some forty guards, twenty to a side, and we walk up the red carpet to stand before the thrown. There we find a Gnome (ruling a over a human kingdom mind you), and next to his throne on a pedestal is the 3rd sacred jewel, or what we assume to be. Well I do little talking, and the arrogant PCs take a stab at trying to finesse it out of the Gnome, which doesn’t work. Then they threaten him, of course, and his guards attack, without the slightest motion from their “King,” and they all know to do subdual damage. We fight a loosing battle, (especially without our magic) and one of our players finally goes for the Gnome, to grab the jewel. At that moment the Gnome himself attacks with a Mind Blast, stunning all of us, where at that point the guards that were outside the blast knock the rest of us unconscious. Well that entire scene riles up the party pretty good, about that being an impossible scenario and they couldn’t have gotten around it and blah, blah; I mostly just angry over the fact that I’m, in effect, a 12th level commoner. When we wake up in the dungeon we find that in the cell across from our own is the BBEG’s primary henchman (who we’ve dubbed the Red Man due to the color of his clothes and his hair) who has hounded us for levels, the same fate befell him as us. Anyway the Red Man manages to escape right in front of our eyes when his ranger (an ex-player who moved away that the DM turned into a traitor NPC) shows up and frees him. We escape later by our own means and have to fight our way out of the dungeon, dodge guards in the castle while we search for the armory where our stuff is…would you believe its not anywhere near the dungeon? More arguing over the fact that the DM wouldn’t “throw us a bone.” Anyways we discover this enormous steam/psionic powered machine that filled a room that runs from ground level up to the top of the castle, and appears to slowly start to be activating itself. After we find the armory we discover the Gnome is on the top level of his “machine,” and rush there. We find him on the top of this tower, outside. He’s got several guards with him (in addition to 3 jewels and the “compass”). Also at the same time, the Red Man and the Traitor Ranger show up at the other flight of stairs. So anyway a massive battle ensues, mostly us and the bad guys against the Gnome’s forces. We all are trying to get to the jewels first, of course the Ranger and one our people make it to the Gnome at the same time and the little Psionic **** blows both of them away. About halfway through the fight, one of the guards that has been standing next to the Gnome the whole time kills the other Guard standing next to the Gnome and then reveals himself to be the Assassin, who starts to attack the Gnome. Soon the guards are all dead and the bad guys turn on the players. At this point I should mention that each of the sacred jewels seems to possess a power, and finally we grabbed the 3rd jewel out of the Gnome’s hand and we were able to will its effect to stop, which of course was the creation of the Anti Magic Zone surrounding the city (we later learned that that jewel’s powers was Duration: Permanent (D) and was a 1/year thing). My little rant came when my spells were finally restored and I went to Polymorph the Gnome into a frog. It would seem that the Gnome had planned for the contingency of spells being cast at him and possessed a Ring of Spell Turning that rebounded my own spell back at me, and of course there was no way in hell I could make my own save, so I became a frog for the rest of the encounter until the Cleric could come to my aid with a Dispel Magic. I thought that was a little underhanded. With our magic restored and the Assassin on our side (sorta), the Gnome gave up the jewels and compass and fled, and the Red Man and the Ranger teleported away once things started looking bad for them. After the battle we found the real King in the dungeon and he told us that they activated the jewel to protect their Kingdom from enemy magic, feeling safe with their armies. Well the evil Gnome Psion came along and pretty much wrestled control of the Kingdom away from him, Dominated a good portion of the guard and took command of the city, later the nation from there. So I want to know if you people would have reacted to that particular scenario. If our own group is just whiny (which I wouldn’t be surprised), or perhaps the DM did kind of pull a fast one on us with the whole psionics thing (of which there still aren’t any in our party).
White Mage 08-02-04, 04:43 AM	I still don't understand you. Your group's got a DM others would dream of; Dramatic plot twists:one of the guards that has been standing next to the Gnome the whole time kills the other Guard standing next to the Gnome and then reveals himself to be the Assassin High action: We find him on the top of this tower, outside. Victory: With our magic restored and the Assassin on our side (sorta), the Gnome gave up the jewels and compass and fled Nice roleplaying opportunities: So we go and see the King, we enter his royal great hall Sneaking and plotting: During the night, which there is a curfew, one of party members slips out of the inn and goes on a roof-jumping spree. He dodges guards but catches notice of strange dark cloaked figures darting from side street to side street. Good atmosphere: As we spend the day in town we quickly get the feeling that the city is pretty somber and hateful of the rulership From what I can read I have to answer: Yes, you are whiny. Second, maybe is't your DM who should be complaining on these boards about his players. From your previous post one could judge the players to be of powergames, complaining about lost EXP. Your save DC's seem consistent with that. If your DM makes a, only so small, change in the way psionics are handled, you are complaining. Remember, it was that way from the start and the PC were given the oportunity (later on) to play psionics themselves. Why are you complaining? (By the way, psionics is not even in the PHB and in many campaigns it's not even there). How is your DM nerfing you to make his NPC's stronger? The way I read it, he (or she?) is just setting up a challenging scenario. How is he beating you over the head with impossible situations? In the end you prevailed and won! The fact that you couldn't win a the fight in the grand hall only strengthenes my perception that your DM is good. It was a stupid action to attack the gnome then and there: you should have lost that fight. Please, just enjoy the game. It really makes it more fun for everyone, including yourself. Please, stop seeing problems as "nerfing the PC's" but as interesting challenges.
Mockingbird 08-02-04, 05:20 AM	<<<If our own group is just whiny >>> Yes, they are. If your group is sniveling over this scenario (which I think is imaginative, challenging, original, and well done), then I'm surpirsed your DM hasn't quit playing with the group already. Anyways, good gaming!
Naeron 08-02-04, 05:23 AM	This scenario seems entirely reasonable. Eell thought out and balanced and, except for a slight overuse of DMPC's, a credit to the DM. You main peeve seems to be that the powerful Gnome Psion had a Ring of Spell Turning. Well if the campaign is playing "psionics are different" then a Psion lacks the ability to protect themselves from offensive magic in the same way as a Wizard/Sorceror so such an item would be exceptionally high on the list if those you would want. And as King the gnome would have much greater resources available to acquire items than normal. Having the guards attack would probably be triggered from a otherwise innocuous action (e.g. if I put my left hand on the armrest of the throne) or a mental command. And they probably had standing orders to go for subdual except for certain conditions (e.g. more than half are down or the "king" shouts a command etc). These are the sort of things that a royal bodyguard would be well trained in. The telling point is that although the party were operating without magic you still won. All in all I'd say the DM ran a good adventure.
Welcome 08-02-04, 06:27 AM	O noes, a zone of anti-magic !! Yeah, they turn wizards in a commoner. Should they be banned for that ? Wizards have weaknesses, that's one of them. O noes, the King (or the Gnome masquerading as the King) won't just hand the jewel over ! And he's actually good at something else than just sitting on a throne ! O noes, the prison guards don't store the weapons within arm's reach of the prisoners ! O noes, the King has *gasp* defenses against spells ! I see absolutely no problem with any of this. So your DM seems to like NPCs ; I don't have a problem with that either, as long as you still have things to do.
Bait the Bard 08-02-04, 06:40 AM	AHahahahahahahahahahahah! Oh god! Ahahahahahhahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Nothing against you and your group, just the second post :rolf: As for the actual question posed, I think your DM, while not being entirely unreasonable, is certainly screwing over your character. Rings of Spell Turning and an Ati-Magic Zone?! Why not just be lvl one commoner while your at it?! While this may be reaonable up to a point, I would say, if it continues, that you want to make a new character, or stop screwing my wizard over. In my opinion - the annoying bard
Beamup 08-02-04, 08:19 AM	So, let's take a look at what's going on here. The DM doesn't let extraordinarily stupid tactics work. (Threatening the King in his throne room in front of his guards) The DM doesn't let PCs use their specialties all the time. (AMF - yes, that hurts Wizards badly. That's one of the prices you pay for the power. Also, a Wizard can easily be built to still be effective under such circumstances - not in combat, but out of it. Knowledges are your friends.) The DM doesn't have his NPCs be utter idiots. (Weapons aren't stored right next to your cell, the Gnome had defenses against magic.) The DM has interesting recurring NPCs. Then, we put this together with the complaints in the other thread (which boil down to "There's an NPC who claims to be more powerful than we are"). Conclusions: This is one of the better DMs I've ever heard of. He has a credible campaign plot, what I can only describe as brilliantly done recurring NPCs, presents the party with interesting challenges (but ones the PCs can overcome), lets the party fail when PCs do stupid things, and plays his NPCs as if they have an IQ greater than 50. Yet his players (apparently incessantly) complain. Sounds to me like what the players here want is the style of game where you just go around killing things that are deliberately designed to be easy to deal with, and when the PCs make bad choices, the DM makes them into good choices. And probably for the DM to fudge any rolls that might be bad for the PCs. There's nothing inherently wrong with that game style, but it's definitely elementary-school-level D&D, while this DM is PhD-level.
Darkwin6 08-02-04, 10:42 AM	It certainly does sound like you're a bunch of whiners. You're lucky. You have a great DM. Enjoy it.
Revelation 08-02-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Erelamar Is the DM Nerfing the players to make his own villains tougher (which some in our group complain about), or perhaps is he beating us over the head with impossible situations to advance his own plot, or are we making too big a deal of it? No, no, YES! To start off, I will say that the DM hates the idea of Psionics and Magic overlapping (despite how game breaking it could be), he chooses to use the Psionics are different approach (by the way, this whole event took place back in 3.0). So do I, and always have under every edition Also in the beginning no one was allowed to play psionic characters because the region we started in they weren’t prevalent, later about perhaps a session before this one, we learned that psionic characters could now be made if our own died, or someone really wanted to give up their current character and make one. No one died and no one changed in that session, then this one happens. So? I'm firmly with the "Yes you are whiny" brigade. From your description I'd have loved to play in this game, it had everything! Enjoy a good plot, sometimes you can't play to your strengths but the ability to play well when weakened is always to me the mark of a good improvising role player.
Quartermain 08-02-04, 11:25 AM	That is one great adventure! I wish I could think of things like that... Well, as soon as I read about the oppressive, communistic society, the first person that came to mind was stalin. Short, oppressive ruler? What? The ring of spell turning is probably just probably from paranoia if he has so many measures to protect himself. The fact that he's a psion and vulnerable to magic is even more reason. I sure wish I was a player in your campaign!
lord_blackfang 08-02-04, 12:12 PM	I'd love to play in that campaign. What was the whining about again? :rolleyes:
Kilamar 08-02-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by lord_blackfang I'd love to play in that campaign. Me too. Sounds like much fun. Kilamar
Astanphaeus 08-02-04, 12:43 PM	Given my reply to your first thread, you can probably guess what I'm going to state here... Yeah, it sounds like a group of whiners. Based on your two threads, my impression is: when things don't go the group's way, everyone starts complaining out of character. Again: keep it IC. That said, you certainly had a frustrating session. It seems to me that the intended pay-off for suffering through commoner status was to have your character suddenly at full power at a critical moment in the game. Unfortunately, when you got your magic back, the first thing you did was target the gnome, and he had a defense. But things like that happen. Live and learn. Your wizard is now aware of a weakness in his general approach, and he can compensate (he also might develop a little compassion for the people he's been turning into frogs). You've built a single-class character focused on a particular stunt. As a result, your character has weaknesses. They were exploited. That's what opponents generally try to do. You should expect it. Do not blame your failure to think tactically on the DM. The psionics thing is just silly. You knew psionics were part of the campaign world. You knew they were primarily regional. You knew that they did not overlap with magic. You were even given an opportunity to create a psionic character. No, it was not inappropriate to use psionics in the adventure. If he starts using them in every adventure, maybe then you'd have a genuine gripe. In this singular instance, it was used to create a unique and "exotic" challenge. If the stone shut down all magic except enchantment, and the gnome was an enchanter, I'm pretty sure the players would've still complained... so, really, the problem wasn't the psionics, the problem was that it wasn't a direct and easy scenario. You should all know by now that this DM isn't going to make everything a cakewalk for you. However, there were many ways in which this scenario could've been handled. It might actually have been easy had your group taken another course... but you chose a rather direct approach, and dealt with consequences for that. Don't try to hang your mistakes on the DM... especially when he telegraphed something to you early on, by having an NPC scale the wall rather than walking right in via the front gate. Theoretically, given the ease by which your rogue skulked about the city, you might have been able to avoid confrontation entirely. Your character's weakness was also the city's weakness. You didn't exploit that. Obviously, the assassin did. You could've, you didn't, that's not the DM's fault. Finally, there were no "DMPCs" in this scenario (oh, how I hate that phrase). There were NPCs of comparable and perhaps slightly higher level: a scoundrel (the assassin) and recurring villains. Those aren't DMPCs. Please read page 103-104 of the DMG. ~ A.
CrimsonRyoko 08-02-04, 01:11 PM	Im with the majority when i say your DM plays his games very well, and that its an awesome gaming session. BUT I too am considered a whiny player, thou i try my damndest to NOT do it in game :D So i guess i can understand where yall are comin from, whenever my DM does something that i cant understand (Recently he ruled that NO spell can crit, and also that Elves have to sleep for 8 hours. . . . . ) All i can say is that you either have to learn to deal and get over it, realize that it is just a game thou it prolly is very important to ya like it is to me, or find a group more fitting to your tastes, Just think of the times when the game is fun, and tough it out. Also might try to Adapt to his world instead of just doing whatever ya feel like. Also - on the whole 12 level commoner bit, well it happens, If you are ganna play a one trick pony, learn that sometimes that one trick isnt going to work.
eudas 08-02-04, 02:00 PM	eh, your group probably is a bit whiny. i will say, with the ring of spell turning thing, that's completely fair, you deserved that. :) and it's funny. :) the only thing that worries me a little about the dm is that i do also get the feeling that you are a little railroaded, or locked into working within his domain instead of being a bit more free to do things your way. the scene in the throne room was a decent example, though as it turns out there was a good reason why it went down the way it did. it just feels like, at certain points, the dm won't hesitate to bring out the big guns to ensure that certain critical plot points go down as planned, and that hurts the players' suspension of disbelief, thus bringing them discontent and to the point where they are bringing it up here in a thread. hm, ok, one other thing that bugs me, i'm not so sure the dm's recurring npc's aren't DMPC's... in the sense of "these NPC's you can never beat/touch, they are off-limits, period." sacred cows or something. "they will always win/escape"... i understand if you don't want your story ruined but again you need to do things in such a way that it doesn't hurt the players' suspension of disbelief; if they think you're protecting an npc unreasonably through meta-gaming or whatnot then it hurts the campaign. other than that, the dm's plots look fairly decent, if a bit "Epic"... i'd say talk to the DM about how some NPC's seem to be "untouchable", and also about how some of the scenes seem to have pre-determined outcomes; maybe they can explain things in a way that will satisfy you, or change their style to be a bit more subtle in those regards. and also maybe ask them to reconsider the "psionics are different" rule; personally i think it's much easier if they can interact on the same level. if not, then get some rings of psionic resistance... you'll need 'em for the mind blasts if not more. eudas
Derren S. 08-02-04, 02:00 PM	If your group doesn't want the DM, can you convince him to do online/pbem games?
Simi 08-02-04, 02:03 PM	Hmm... your DM reminds me of both my current DM and one I had before. I love both of them as DM's! They make you actually think and roleplay. Sometimes the straight out attack is not the best thing to do (especially in a king's throne room surrounded by guards). When I do something stupid in game I fully expect to pay the consequences. It happens. Also, you have to remember that while you may not be useful at one time or another to your party there are other times that you will be more usefully and others will not be. It goes with everyone having thier strengths and weaknesses.
MrkGrismer 08-02-04, 02:46 PM	Fabulous! I'll add myself to the list of people that would love to be in your DM's game. A couple of recommendations: 1) Anytime you optimize a character, ask yourself could you defend yourself against yourself? 2) Remember that cruches can be misplaced. Make sure you can walk without one. 3) Wizards can use bows now.
Astanphaeus 08-02-04, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by eudas hm, ok, one other thing that bugs me, i'm not so sure the dm's recurring npc's aren't DMPC's... in the sense of "these NPC's you can never beat/touch, they are off-limits, period." sacred cows or something. "they will always win/escape"... i understand if you don't want your story ruined but again you need to do things in such a way that it doesn't hurt the players' suspension of disbelief; if they think you're protecting an npc unreasonably through meta-gaming or whatnot then it hurts the campaign. Playing an NPC villain as a pushover will not only hurt a player's suspension of disbelief, it will cheapen the game for both the DM and the players. A player can have the perception that an NPC is getting preferential treatment, but that player's perception could very well be wrong. Just because it's perceived doesn't make it valid or true. No one should have to accommodate unreasonable and/or knee-jerk, slanted conclusions. What we have here, it seems, is a group that is quick to assume that, whenever something doesn't go their way, it must be because the DM is doing something wrong, or is being unfair somehow. An NPC thwarted the PCs or escaped from them? Oh, it must be a "DMPC"! Whatever you do, don't try to employ IC ingenuity and try to rise to the challenge! Instead, complain OOG and demand that the NPCs be more easily vanquished! :rolleyes: Here's some key quotes from the DMG: "Flesh out enemies. Give thought to why NPCs are doing what they do, why they are where they are, and how they interact with all that's around them. If you don't think of them as just bad guys for the PCs to kill, the players won't either." "Play enemies as smart as they are--no more no less." "A well-played villain can become a recurring character who is a constant thorn in the side of the PCs." Pointers for well-played villains: "Use all available options to foil the PCs." "The basic idea to keep in mind is that for every ability the PCs might have, an NPC villain might be able to counter it wiith the right spell, item, or ability." "Have an escape plan." "A smart villain fights PCs only when he has to, and only when he's prepared." In order to have a recurring villain, said villain must have the capacity to escape and must be fully willing to utilize that capacity... otherwise he won't be recurring. This tactic will be employed at least once, and if the PCs don't take steps to prevent it, it is reasonable to conclude that it will continue to be employed until they take those steps. If they don't take those steps, and the villain routinely escapes, that doesn't make the villain a DMPC. If the villain picks the time and place of confrontation, that's not only sound (and basic) tactics, it's smart and to be expected. It doesn't make him a DMPC. As for railroading... the PCs chose to walk through the front gate (even though they saw the alleged assassin do otherwise). They chose to seek an audience with the king. They chose to become adversarial (with a known tyrant) during that meeting. How was this, by any stretch of the imagination, "railroading"? This DM is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing, and more. I can say from experience that its difficult to maintain a recurring scoundrel character (an NPC who can be an ally one day, and at odds with the PCs the next). This DM has introduced one such character in the assassin and perhaps another in the knight (see previous thread). He has smart, recurring villains. He's provided interesting situations that are not just: Enter Dungeon, Kill Monster, Collect Treasure, Repeat. He has a campaign with a cosmic element, but manages to keep the actual adventures "down to earth" (a balance that can be hard to pull off). His NPCs have personalities and their own agendas. The PCs, despite the obstacles, have come out on top thus far (do the villains have 4 of these stones? Doesn't seem so). This is, by all appearances, a good campaign. It may even be a great campaign. The problem is not, by my reckoning, the DM. The problem is players who are participating with a CRPG mentality. They want a video game. They have to break from that and... keep it IC. ~ A.
Frodo Lives 08-02-04, 05:50 PM	quote: Well that entire scene riles up the party pretty good, about that being an impossible scenario and they couldn’t have gotten around it and blah, blah; I mostly just angry over the fact that I’m, in effect, a 12th level commoner. ************************************* Impossible scenario? How about not attacking! It’s the king in his throne room! It’s supposed to be a no win situation if you are so stupid to do something like that, especially without powerful magic. quote: while we search for the armory where our stuff is…would you believe its not anywhere near the dungeon? More arguing over the fact that the DM wouldn’t “throw us a bone.” **************************************** **** Why, because the king isn’t an imbecile? You’ve watched to many James Bond movies if you think that your equipment is supposed to be right next to you jail cell, any self respecting jailer knows that. quote: It would seem that the Gnome had planned for the contingency of spells being cast at him and possessed a Ring of Spell Turning that rebounded my own spell back at me, and of course there was no way in hell I could make my own save, so I became a frog for the rest of the encounter until the Cleric could come to my aid with a Dispel Magic. I thought that was a little underhanded. **************************************** *********** So good planning for survival by the BBEG is underhanded? Your previous DMs must have been spoon feeding you, because if a King isn’t able to defend himself for simple contingencies he had planned against (magic), then you might as well have the encounter set at CR 0 because that is the effective threat of it. question: If our own group is just whiny Yes, Yes, Yes! question: perhaps the DM did kind of pull a fast one on us with the whole psionics thing No, he gave you and the rest of your party a chance to play a psionicist and everyone turned down the opportunity. How is that a fast one at all? The DM seems to be quite imaginative and runs a game quite well. NPCs that are realistic and challenging are the sign of a good DM not a bad one. Like many others, sign me up! I'd play under this DM any time. *Sorry, but my quote button doesn't seem to be working, I hope that this isn't to difficult to read or follow
wereooze 08-02-04, 06:37 PM	Holy Crap that is a good adventure! If I were the DM I would have made the BBEG a Mind Flayer :88E: instead of a gnome. A Mind Flayer :88E: that made liberal use of its (spell-like) psionic abilities to mass Suggestion the entire city into thinking he was the real king. (Instead of a gnome, which kinda gives something away). Can You imagine a Mind Flayer :88E: who lived in a no-magic area? With no pesky wizards it would be nearly invincible! Plus the latent psychic abilites of the Mind Flayer :88E: could have provided 'psychic powers' in-game without having to use the unbalancing Psychic class. IMHO psychic powers belong to monsters and the rare NPC gypsy fortune-teller. Its just way to much stuff to keep track of when you're a DM. BTW: This is seriously among the best adventures I've heard of in years. I'm gonna make the Mind Flayer :88E: substitution and use it myself. Tell your DM "Thanks for the Module, sucker!" This post was brought to you by the Cthulhu/Mind Flayer smiley :88E:
Dark151 08-02-04, 06:51 PM	I don't know why you post another one, when everyone thinks your DM is the best DM. I agree with the rest of them and say that your DM is good at what he does. I have a DM that sounds like yours. It sounds like you guys like to win everything you go up against. Like my DM says "You can't win every battle you go against." And there is always someone more powerful than you. You just have to think of different ways to confront them. You don't always have to battle everything that you come up against.
Mike the DM 08-02-04, 07:32 PM	Wow. What an ass-kicking. And on the WAPTD? board, no less. Erelamar, you been served! Sorry, I ended up here by mistake. I'm going back to the DM's board now to laugh about this. Just say no to whining. :D
Willie the Duck 08-02-04, 07:33 PM	The only thing (and I mean ONLY thing) you have a legitamate complaint about is the whole "psionics in the campaign" thing. Psionics are a cool addition to the game if and only if both the players and DM like the idea. When the DM tried to add psionics to the campaign and all the players yawned, he might have gotten the picture that no one was interested. Sure, someone could argue that it was your fault for leaving yourself open to a form of attack you new existed, but I say that you shouldn't be expected to pick up another book and learn a whole 'nother rules set just because your DM likes the genre. Other than that though, you guys had the best adventure around. Obviously your character didn't do too well, maybe he should have some backup abilities (good skills, bow proficiency and rapid shot, heck in an anti-magic zone he can strap on some armor and shield).
clanner 08-02-04, 10:41 PM	Iwish I could be part of a campaign like that. your dm rules. he's better than the one I'm under right now and he seems to tell an awesome story. next time you seem them give them a big hug and bow down and grovel. he rules. you are whining, and even though I just started I know that attacking a king in his thrown room is a bad idea. I would have left and had the rogue go in at night or search around or something. your group has the mentality of my dm an other players who tend to want to kill. remember to hug your dm.
DungeonMaster 08-02-04, 11:54 PM	Hmm... I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar scenario before, in an old module but it wasn't a gnome... I'll have to check. I think that the probability of the gnome having a ring of spell turning in a strictly psionics/magic divided world is pretty slim. That's a 150 000 GP item and by the rules only a 19th or 20th level NPC should have the wealth to really own one of those. My feeling is he threw that in there to avoid you killing his NPC. In fact, reading both threads I think that he is bending the rules to keep the NPCs alive. I'm personally of a different breed of DM, I don't try for hollywood moments and if you catch the NPCs with the right spell, they're down for the count, and vice-versa. There are ups and downs for both sorts of DM of course and neither is going to have you feeling fantastic all of the time. It can be just as irritating to have a status-quo encounter that mops the floor with you because you barked up the wrong tree. One thing as a DM I tend to avoid are "dead magic" zones. I've never liked these. I've found them to be the hallmark of inexperience with the magic system rather than good DMing. Anti-magic field is a 6th level spell with a limited radius for a reason. Don't get me wrong, these are old ideas and really quite a part of D&D (just like wildmagic zones) but if overused they are in fact nothing more than punitive measures against a particular character class. It's like being a warrior in a repel wood zone, but worse. All in all I think your DM is set on trying to tell a story, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as you're entertained by it and willing to go along for the ride. Without knowing the specifics, I'de say talk with him about his style in a frank way. You could even rearange your spell list to have it suit his campaign needs, this would honestly save both of you headache and potential malcontent. If you really don't like it, and prefer a clear and open game, then move on! To each his own, even the best deep-immersion storytelling DM isn't going to be fun for a group of hack-and-slashers. This might just be a case of a group who prefer status-quo to tailored campaign. It happens. To each his own.
Phrennzy 08-03-04, 12:42 AM	that rebounded my own spell back at me, and of course there was no way in hell I could make my own save, so I became a frog :rofl:
Astanphaeus 08-03-04, 01:18 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster I think that the probability of the gnome having a ring of spell turning in a strictly psionics/magic divided world is pretty slim. That's a 150 000 GP item... 98,280 gp. and by the rules only a 19th or 20th level NPC should have the wealth to really own one of those. Could you point to that rule? An NPC ruler is going to have plenty of wealth. I don't recall any mechanical restrictions on that. In any event, my impression is very different from yours. If this DM is bending anything, I'd say it's the reaction of the NPCs... so that they don't kill party members outright. ~ A,
Welcome 08-03-04, 05:49 AM	In fact, the original poster spent so much time writing the post and has been so fair in recounting the events (I mean, he didn't go to crazy lenghts to make his DM look bad), added to the fact that judging by the responses it's pretty clear everyone thinks that he has a good DM, that I wonder : could it be that Erelamar posted this on purpose, with the intent of having a good laugh at our reactions ? Meh, I'm probably just paranoid. Or am I ? ;)
Glak 08-03-04, 06:23 AM	I was just thinking that. I am sure that this is being posted by a DM. Very entertaining read, I wish I were that good of a DM.
DungeonMaster 08-03-04, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus 98,280 gp. No, 150 000 GP. 3rd edition DMG p.195. To top it off it's command word activated (a standard action) and the spell turning effect lasts only 150 minutes. I find it a litte odd that the gnome rather than fleeing chose to activate his magic item after the anti-magic field dropped, to again protect himself from magic. It doesn't really gel with the rules. Could you point to that rule? An NPC ruler is going to have plenty of wealth. I don't recall any mechanical restrictions on that. Table 2-44 p.58 of the DMG. A king's wealth is mostly in land, and his strength is mostly in power over other people - not amazing magic items. If he has high levels then he has gear, just like any other NPC, and that gear value is that from the table. Just because your NPC is a king doesn't mean you can give him a rod of rulership, a vorpal sword, a ring of spell turning and full plate +5 of greater fortification. If the king is intended to be a reasonable challenge as an NPC, where the PCs actually have a chance to defeat him, then he should follow the rules on NPC design. p.171 of the DMG, "the gear that NPCs carry serve as the bulk of their treasure". The standard table already assumes that an NPC has roughly 3 times the average treasure value for an encounter of that level. It might be tempting to deck out NPCs with increadible items but when the players do take them down you're left with a party that has far too much wealth for their level. Of course if you never intend the players to take the NPC out, then it's not such a problem, but when they say foul that it's not a balanced encounter - they're right. If this DM is bending anything, I'd say it's the reaction of the NPCs... so that they don't kill party members outright. Well reactions are pretty standardised as well but I don't know how the diplomacy roll / charisma checks went. In my world, a by and large status-quo world if you were to simply walk up to and try to kill a tyrant in his throne room whilst in audience with him and you failed he would take special care and effort to torture you to death in the immediate future . There would be no great escape and in fact there would likely be no dungeon scene. Court would be adjourned, the unconscious bodies dragged down to the dungeon and the rest would fade to black. Without some sort of contingency planning for the advent of a failed coup the PCs would likely all be rolling up new characters. It's a different outlook on the game. The tyrant has a CR, follows the rules for an NPC, is a ruthless murderer who will kill you if you cross him but , but you can actually kill him. We roll dice to see who wins. In the case of this DM, clearly they needed the jewel, clearly they needed to get through the gnome and clearly the gnome was not going die and rules were bent to make it so. It's a story - a good story clearly as many here seem to enjoy it! These are two competing outlooks on the game and I don't think the players - if they are complaining should be necessarily slammed by saying they're "whinners". Maybe they just want a different style of game and the storytime DM is not their cup of tea.
Astanphaeus 08-03-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster No, 150 000 GP. 3rd edition DMG p.195. Ah, that's right... it's a 3rd edition game. Sorry about that. To top it off it's command word activated (a standard action) and the spell turning effect lasts only 150 minutes. I find it a litte odd that the gnome rather than fleeing chose to activate his magic item after the anti-magic field dropped, to again protect himself from magic. Depends on the details of the situation and the general mindset of the character, I'd say. Given the care that this DM has taken in running his NPCs (illustrated more clearly in the last scenario with the knight and squire), I think it likely that the gnome was intitially (and recklessly) determined to get that stone back. After all, everything he had made of himself hinged upon it. A king's wealth is mostly in land, and his strength is mostly in power over other people - not amazing magic items. That's your take. However, what makes up a king's wealth is a matter for campaign and setting design, so your take doesn't necessarily apply. Certainly, a great many people in positions of power in established campaign worlds don't fit your description. This is, as I thought, a point left to DM discretion. If he has high levels then he has gear, just like any other NPC. I have to very much disagree with this one. An NPC who happens to be 1. a ruler with subsequent access to considerable resources, and 2. an antagonist for the PCs, does not have to be dealt with "like any other NPC", and probably shouldn't be. He was given an item, and item that made sense for him, and countered the typical tactic of the PC, thereby making him a challenge... which is what he's supposed to be. Just because your NPC is a king doesn't mean you can give him a rod of rulership, a vorpal sword, a ring of spell turning and full plate +5 of greater fortification. Doesn't mean I can't either. It'd be foolish, but that's under my discretion. Much of this under the DM's discretion, which is the salient point. But let's remember: we're talking about a single ring -- one that made a lot of sense -- not a host of huge items. If the king is intended to be a reasonable challenge Bingo. Of course if you never intend the players to take the NPC out Which is not a given here. Well reactions are pretty standardised as well but I don't know how the diplomacy roll / charisma checks went. I think it's pretty clear how the roleplay went. The knight was not presented as the type to walk away from someone trying to kill him. Were I running the scene, I would not roll for something like that. That's strictly in the realm of roleplay, and the NPC is going to behave according to his personality. I think the NPC, based on the description of him, didn't behave consistently in that one scene. On the other hand, I don't know his full background, so I may be wrong. It's a different outlook on the game. That pretty much sums it up right there. In the case of this DM, clearly they needed the jewel Clearly. clearly they needed to get through the gnome Not so clear, no. and clearly the gnome was not going die and rules were bent to make it so. Not clear at all. Again, there were many ways in which they could've approached this situation. Judging by their initial encounter with the assassin, and the ease by which the rogue moved through the town after curfew, I suspect that they actually took a course the DM was trying to nudge them away from. You and I don't know what would've happened had they taken another course. But in both scenarios, they were given choices every step of the way. That suggests that the DM is not railroading anything. I also run a very status quo world, to the point where I will design things in a way that makes sense in the setting, even if it happens to not fit so neatly into all the tables and charts. I left GURPS and came back to D&D specifically to get away from that. I can see this situation playing out in exactly the same manner in my campaign as it did here. No pre-ordained survival of any of the primaries, no pre-ordained encounters, no railroading at all, and yet the same outcome. You're making an assumption that this was rigged, and you may be right, but I don't think it jives with both situations taken as a whole, and it certainly could've played out in the same way without being rigged. "We have found this magical device that locates these sacred jewels that must be gathered to save the world from impending doom. The device fell into our laps because the NPC who was doing the job died (which I guess was our fault seeing as he was kind of a dick and none of the players liked him, so we let him die)." Does this mesh at all with the "DMPC" and "unkillable NPC" suspicions? Doesn't appear to. In any event, it's not as clear as you claim. These are two competing outlooks on the game and I don't think the players - if they are complaining should be necessarily slammed by saying they're "whinners". Maybe they just want a different style of game and the storytime DM is not their cup of tea. Again, the situations don't paint that picture for me. I don't see this as a case of conflicting outlooks. That's always the first thing I look for, because it's usually the true root of any problems in a campaign. What I see here is OOG complaints everytime something doesn't go the way the players want it to. What I see is consistent metagaming on the part of the players ("really I think she wanted to spite the DM"), and a clear Players vs. DM attitude perpetuated by them. It comes down to: who are you going to extend the benefit of the doubt to? Given the described behavior of the DM (and the overall quality of his campaign), and the described behavior of the PCs (presented, I might add, by one of those same players), I think you have to bend over backwards pretty far to extend it to the latter. ~ A.
flex 08-03-04, 03:18 PM	maybe a normal king wouldnt have many magic items, but if i have just taken over another kingdom and the people wasnt too happy i would get all the protective items i can get... btw i love the campain...
amalcon 08-03-04, 04:26 PM	Originally posted by flex maybe a normal king wouldnt have many magic items, but if i have just taken over another kingdom and the people wasnt too happy i would get all the protective items i can get... And let's not forget that it's going to be tough for anyone to "take over" a kingdom without having some magic items to begin with...
DungeonMaster 08-03-04, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus I think it likely that the gnome was intitially (and recklessly) determined to get that stone back. After all, everything he had made of himself hinged upon it. I could except "recklessly" if it didn't involve activating a magic ring as a standard action whilst the stone is being taken from you. We don't have all the details but that's not a fair assumption. That's your take. However, what makes up a king's wealth is a matter for campaign and setting design, so your take doesn't necessarily apply. Certainly, a great many people in positions of power in established campaign worlds don't fit your description. This is, as I thought, a point left to DM discretion. Everything is left to DM discretion, any and all aspects of the game. As soon as you try to contradict the rules, or bend them in favor of the opposition then you are not by definition offering a fair or beleivable challenge. I have to very much disagree with this one. An NPC who happens to be 1. a ruler with subsequent access to considerable resources, and 2. an antagonist for the PCs, does not have to be dealt with "like any other NPC", and probably shouldn't be. Sure throw the rules out the window. You could have the king with total control over all wizards in the kingdom, a dragon for a mount, etc... Will the players care? Yes. He was given an item, and item that made sense for him, and countered the typical tactic of the PC, thereby making him a challenge... which is what he's supposed to be. No. It makes nill sense to have an active ring of spell turning the instant your anti-magic field that's been protecting you for centuries drops. You misunderstand what a "challenge" is for the players. A challenge isn't giving the NPC the gift of foresight or increadible wealth or spontaneous magic items to counteract the PC's abilities. A challenge is working within the framework of what's possible for the PCs to defeat while seriously threatening at least one of them. That's the very definition of CR. This is my opinion, working off of the facts presented, an NPC that the DM kept alive by bending the rules for his story purposes. It's not a "challenge". There is no "challenge", that's a hoop the players must jump through and accept. we're talking about a single ring -- one that made a lot of sense -- not a host of huge items. I still don't see how an active 150 000 GP ring of spell turning on a psionic gnome in a null magic field that's been there for centuries against PCs who's "killer" spell is polymorph other is making a lot of sense. Again, there were many ways in which they could've approached this situation. Judging by their initial encounter with the assassin, and the ease by which the rogue moved through the town after curfew, I suspect that they actually took a course the DM was trying to nudge them away from. It doesn't matter. The end encounter is with said psionic gnome with said items under said anti-magic field. You and I don't know what would've happened had they taken another course. But in both scenarios, they were given choices every step of the way. That suggests that the DM is not railroading anything. The DM is not railroading in the sense that the players follow the one guiding track. He's railroading in the sense that X event must occur. Where event X is survival of NPC. I also run a very status quo world, to the point where I will design things in a way that makes sense in the setting, even if it happens to not fit so neatly into all the tables and charts. I left GURPS and came back to D&D specifically to get away from that. Sure, whatever, do what you want. The players crying foul isn't "whinning" then, it's pointing out that you're not playing by the book and the book was written for the purpose of fair gameplay. I can see this situation playing out in exactly the same manner in my campaign as it did here. No pre-ordained survival of any of the primaries, no pre-ordained encounters, no railroading at all, and yet the same outcome. You're making an assumption that this was rigged, and you may be right, but I don't think it jives with both situations taken as a whole, and it certainly could've played out in the same way without being rigged. I do think it was "rigged" for the survival of his NPCs. I don't see a psionic ruler sitting in an anti-magic field with an active ring of spell turning for centuries as anything but a bit odd. What I see here is OOG complaints everytime something doesn't go the way the players want it to. What I see is consistent metagaming on the part of the players ("really I think she wanted to spite the DM"), and a clear Players vs. DM attitude perpetuated by them. No, I'm in total disagreement. I've never honestly seen a more polite "complaint" about another DM in my entire life. Players don't complain when you follow the rules and they do something stupid. Players complain when the DM bends and twists the rules. That's really the heart of the matter here. I'm quite convinced with the given information that rules are being bent for story purposes. I'm not saying you can't do that. I'm saying not all players appreciate it - it's a question of game style. Maybe the players may want a different sort of DM. Not everyone likes the "storytime" DM. Some do. That's really all there is to it.
trapspringer 08-03-04, 06:31 PM	My unreality senses are tingling. I don't know many players who would whine about all this, and you sure remembered a lot of the details. Your theories on the various things going on are awfully logical for a player, too. Now I'm not sayong your the DM, just implying it heavily.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-04, 10:22 PM	Wow, sounds like one of the DMs from my group, if not myself. The spell turning ring inside and antimagic field was a little cheesy, but still the rest as solid gold.
Astanphaeus 08-04-04, 12:19 AM	DungeonMaster, I do in fact understand what a challenge is. I've been running games -- and running them successfully -- for a lot of years, in multiple mediums, using a variety of genres and systems. I'd ask that you keep that in mind if and when we have any further conversations. As for this situation, given your last post, I think it's enough to say that we disagree. Happy gaming. ~ A.
TripleF 08-04-04, 02:22 AM	Just a thought but maybe the ring of turning was little more than a message to the wizard to stop using polymorph all the time. Over usage of some spells can ruin encounters for other players and the dm especially under 3.0 spell DCs. Like in one of my games where a gnome illusionist went around spamming none stop Phatasmal Killers. His character was built around that spell it seemed. Then the DM threw at us enemies that were immune to illusions or basically fudged rolls so that most of the foes passed the saving throws.
Lokiyn 08-04-04, 02:39 AM	Of course as a psion in a non transparent world i would probaly give my soul(or some one elses) for said ring. The psion might have had the ring before entering the antimagic field. The ring might have been in the vaults or city but unrecognized due to the antimagic effects and the fact that wizards would avoid that area. along comes a psion with some cc spellcraft points and there you have it. and it sounds like the antimagic field only went up during the kings reign but that may just be my interpretation.
Magus, prince of Darkness 08-04-04, 11:58 AM	In my opinion a few things seemed to have been looked over. The PC`s who is playing in this game may feel that the npc`s are unbeatable. That they fight them at every turn and even thought they get more powerfull its still the same struggle of fighting those npc`s, nothing gets easier and the enemies always manages to escape. Now I`m not saying that this is the case here just that it might be. Or rather that thats how they feel. Or the DM might give them the feeling that all npc`s they meet are more powerfull than they are, regardless of how many levels they have gained or how much more they have learnet its still the same scenario. The npc`s new and old are always equal to the group (even if they are of less numbers than the group). This can get old very fast. And the person posting this thread has been taking a few beatings, while he clearly state that he only was bummed about the ring but there are other players in his group who complains about more things and then he describes what happponed, and most objectively from what I can gather, not many people can do that. Now for the ring, the gnome could have had another ring, which functions the same way but differently, let me explain. Say its a ring of spell turning, always active but can only turn 1d6+4 spell levels. Or some such. A DM is never chackled to the magic items thats official, he can create hos own. And to say the gnome has been ruling the kindgom for centurys is pretty bad since the real king is still alive. And tells the pc`s how the gnome wrestled the power from him. Now this rant is soon over. And to the starter to this thread who I hope still reads all these replies. Gather what you and your group thinks and feels about how the campaing has played out, good stuff and bad stuff. Write it down then calmly talk to the DM, not just over the bad stuff but the stuff you liked and want to have in your game. I`m sure you all can reach an agreement on how you would want to play through this campaign.
TsuDhoNimh 08-04-04, 12:59 PM	It might seem unfair that the gnome had a ring of spell turning. On the other hand, any polymorph-specialized magic-user has a rock-solid defense vs. his own spells: having polymorph self active. So what if you just turned yourself into a frog. Just use next round to turn yourself back, or into something nasty with big teeth... So, always cast Poly self BEFORE poly other. You're lucky you didn't try to polymorph the gnome into a fish!
Beamup 08-04-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by TsuDhoNimh You're lucky you didn't try to polymorph the gnome into a fish! Such things are very bad ideas. You don't want to grant them a save bonus for a lethal form when you can just turn them into a toad and step on them.
Astanphaeus 08-04-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn and it sounds like the antimagic field only went up during the kings reign but that may just be my interpretation. No, I think that's right on the mark: "So the Assassin mentions that this city has been in a Null Magic Zone for the better party of a century, some day in the past it just sprung up, very strange." and... "After the battle we found the real King in the dungeon and he told us that they activated the jewel to protect their Kingdom from enemy magic, feeling safe with their armies." ...pretty much paints that picture. ~ A.
DwarfSmithy 08-04-04, 02:46 PM	I have read both threads. I would say two things: 1) Yes, you all are a little whinny, but you alluded that we may deduce that 2) The only thing the DM could have done better is throwing an occassion bone. (This is a good DM and not throwing a bone is not that big a deal) Here are some thing to think about: So you did not get XP you wanted because the NPC took it from you. You mentioned that the Squire keeps healing you guys. Just how exactly is this squire going to heal you everytime? Does he have tons of cure potions...if it is spells eventually he will run out for the day. Allowing a NPC to do fighting before generally means that the encounter would kill your entire party because of all the resources you would use because eventually you would have no more. There really is no problem in this. You were getting XP, but I guess not as much as you wanted. I am a player but also a DM. When DM-ing I have had NPC do the work where the PCs were not there. It speeds the game up and if another NPC is doing all the healing, it allows them to keep doing it, instead of running out potions/spells. It also drives the point home, "DO NOT attack this NPC, because he will kick your trash! You are NOT ready yet, even if you think you are!" It is humbling to meet someone, that could seriously kick your butt and you could do nothing about it, but that is the realistic. People think that their LVL 11 PC should never meet a LVL 20 Sorcerer and if they did, there should be a way to kill them. Or that the sorcerer should only be able to cast cantrips. That is not true and ruins a realistic world. As a DM I have made arrogant NPCs, they are fun to play. They are made to get under your skin. So far I see nothing wrong with the DM except maybe giving a couple of bones to his PCs to help them a bit. (For Example, he could have given a few more clues, in prison for you escaping, a few more clues about the weaknesses of others, especially the "red guy" you saw in prison, since you got be next to him for awhile across his cell.) The fact the Gnome has a powerful ring? Not a big deal. If the place looks like communism he is going to have tons of money, because he has taken it all from the people. Sometimes the point is that you are not supposed to beat the NPCs....at least at the time you meet them and subsequent times after. You can't be them until you gain the proper levels or the proper items. In games I run there are NPCs that no matter what my PCs did they could not beat them. Does that mean I shaft them continually if they get the guts/stupidity to attack them? No. They actually did kill one of my NPCs. It shocked me, but they were clever enough to figure out a way to do it and I rolled terrible. Now if you never get a chance later to take these NPCs out then that is messed up. Judging from most of your party as you report them (not you) the issues seems to be more so that they are whinning about not getting enough XP, they are too impulsive, lack the patience to try other avenues, prideful and play arrogant PCs as you yourself admit. I mean honestly, they try a few things with the King it doesn't work and then they threaten a him in his own court/hall?!? :looloo: in front of his own gaurds?!? :uh-huh: Brilliant idea on who ever did that. :tiphat: That is asking to die and I think the DM saved your party by making the guards do subdual damage. So really no one has any reason to complain about that, because normally that would get you killed. I would tell you party to try other avenues. Spying, gathering information, this was done a bit, but why not done more to see when the best time of night would be to steal the gem from the Gnome. It is a heck of a lot easier to take out a few gaurds at night than in broad daylight on the Kings own turf. And with the Gray Elf Knight...Did you ever try complimenting him on his wonderful fighting abilities? (You have obviously have people in your group that have good charisma. This does not always mean good looks, it can mean charm.) or after his rudeness was that abandoned entirely? I ask that because perhaps there were avenues to explore that were not explored, perhaps this Knight, if you could have won him over, and a good DM will provide a way for you win over any NPCs of similar alignment, would have taught you several things. Sure he would have been a jerk about it, but any PC can use advancements in skills. Anyway those are my thoughts. ~DwarfSmithy
NeutralNeutral 08-04-04, 05:28 PM	Surely the wealth tables for NPC's are just there for CR purposes, and as a general guideline for adventurous NPC's? The idea that an NPC .must have x gp at y level is ridiculous. What if they are lazy but have inherited wealth, or won the lottery? What if they are powerful but just escaped from imprisonment with nothing but rags and a pointed stick?
Frodo Lives 08-04-04, 10:54 PM	I don't have a problem with the ring, it may be a good item but it is only one magic item, and it's not one typically used as an offensive one either. I will agree that the DM might have a bit of a fetish for using NPCs, but then again it sounds like he is playing them quite well so I can't see a problem there either. It's not like every NPC you meet has to be either a wimp or a one shot deal. It sounds like the group make several bad decisions that lead to this being much harder than it could/should have been. 1) It seems obvious that stealth and secreacy would have been a much better option than kick in the door and fight everything approch. This is evident by how easy it seemed to do things by being stealthy. 2) Threatening or being anything but cordial to a King in his own throne room is the surest way to get your butt handed to you. I don't know what the heck the players thought that they would accomplish there. 3) Meta gaming. Thinking about XP? Not showing respect to any NPC because I AM THE PLAYER! and no one is more powerful or important than me! There was probably many ways to solve this adventure and I am willing to bet that there was more than one way to kill the king (if that is what they wanted to do) but they played a hack n slash style that wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't work in this situation and I doubt that they even considered another way.
DungeonMaster 08-05-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by NeutralNeutral What if they are lazy but have inherited wealth, or won the lottery? What if they are powerful but just escaped from imprisonment with nothing but rags and a pointed stick? What if it's a 6000 year old venerable lich? He's only a level 11 wizard but let's say he's accumulated in his 6000 years a treasure hoard of 10 million GP - a staff of power and a cube of force among others? Does that still make him CR 13? Is a 20th level fighter with only rags and a pointed stick a CR 20 threat? No, the rules are not perfect but it's best to adhere closely to them at least when you want to present the players with an actual challenge. People can reasonably complain you're making the NPCs harder/impossible to kill by granting them all sorts of nifty (and conveniant no less) items. That sort of complaint I can fully understand.
Bob123 08-05-04, 12:54 PM	But how do you know the DM did not give an ad hoc XP adjustment?
amalcon 08-05-04, 11:02 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster What if it's a 6000 year old venerable lich? He's only a level 11 wizard but let's say he's accumulated in his 6000 years a treasure hoard of 10 million GP - a staff of power and a cube of force among others? Does that still make him CR 13? Is a 20th level fighter with only rags and a pointed stick a CR 20 threat? I don't think anyone has a problem with this logic. My question is, who says the gnome has to have a CR equal to the players' level? I don't think anyone said that all enemies of the players have to be things of their CR. Sure, things you face in direct combat should probably be things around your CR +/- 4. The fact that he has something you want does not imply that you must best him in direct combat. If a level 3 party comes across a Great Gold Wyrm which happens to be in posession of the magical map to the dungeon of adventure, the level 3 party would do well to not fight the Wyrm for it. Use diplomacy (Perhaps you will give us the gem in exchange for some service?--not likely in this case, but a valid option at times), use stealth, use misdirection ("Hey, some kind of shady meeting is going on in the basement of this house."), use better timing (why fight the gnome when you can just fight his guards?), or just wait for the bloody gnome to be assassinated and take the jewel then. This is a classic case of the players not considering their options. If you know your magic protection is going to drop (because the PCs grabbed the thing that's keeping it up), why would you not be prepared to activate your backup protection (which you probably had before you came to the area?)
danielinthewolvesden 08-31-04, 07:56 PM	From this and the other post it is now clear you are on a railroad. Now, the DM is an excellent storyteller, so that the view from the windows of the train is fantastic. But it doesn't matter squat what you do. Basicly, the DM is reading a story to you. This is great if you are 8 years old and it's time for bed. :rolleyes: Note the extreme use of NPCs, and the stuff that "just happens' to happen to prevent the players from doing other than what is expected of them as bit players in a story. He's NOT a "great DM'- but he is a great Storyteller. If you can be both, the players are in for a fantasic campaign. This DM is not both. You're not being whiny, but if you are going to continue in this game, understand that what you guys do is nothing but "dungeon dressing". All you can do is go along and watch the pretty scenery and make appreciative comments. Note this isn't terrible- but get used to it, and either go along or find another DM.
Lincoln Hills 09-23-04, 03:24 PM	(refers to screen, then scribbles notes to himself) ...psionic... mmm... throne room... (cackle cackle)... armory NOT near dungeon - hm! Makes sense... all right, now I know how to deal with MY Hack'em PCs. ;)
hopoate!!! 09-23-04, 11:21 PM	My unreality senses are tingling. I don't know many players who would whine about all this, and you sure remembered a lot of the details. Your theories on the various things going on are awfully logical for a player, too. Now I'm not sayong your the DM, just implying it heavily. Yeah I read the bottom posts on the first page before the actual story, and either Erelamar has a very good ability to remember the kind of things his DM would want him to remember about the game, or he's the DM. It's sad but true to say that a player would have jumped to "we got screwed here, here, here and here again" not described the mood they got from the city and the backgrounds of the NPCs. Either way, it'd be interesting to hear the other side of the story.
Vintar 09-24-04, 12:03 AM	Just an FYI about your main complaint (gnome with ring of spell turning) you seem to be forgetting the fact that the gnome came from outside the gem's radius originally. Any lone Psion with half a brain (as a psion gonna have a very good brain) will have some sort of anti-magic defenses. So... he didn't take off his ring when he got within the anti-magic zone. *gasp*
Naeron 09-25-04, 07:51 AM	No, 150 000 GP. 3rd edition DMG p.195. To top it off it's command word activated (a standard action) and the spell turning effect lasts only 150 minutes. I find it a litte odd that the gnome rather than fleeing chose to activate his magic item after the anti-magic field dropped, to again protect himself from magic. It doesn't really gel with the rules. 3.5 SRD - Rings Spell Turning: Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly as if spell turning had been cast upon the wearer. Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Forge Ring, spell turning; Price 98,280 gp So once you activate it it is the next nine spell levels and then you have to reactivate it. And the NPC wealth guidelines are just that, the actual king of a country will have personal wealth but they will have access to many additional items acquired over the years by the royal line. By usurping that position the Gnome would have gained access to the royal vaults which would certainly have had some very useful defensive items.