Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Erelamar 07-30-04, 03:36 AM	Right off the bat, the DM is a min/max, optimization machine whenever he actually plays in a game…and he always plays Wizards, can’t think of time when he didn’t. Our party is six people, some characters are optimized, some aren’t, but think they are and brag all the time about it. This is really just a blurb about the campaign in general: Anyways, I think the DM has found a clever way to work in his Dues Ex Machina without just throwing it in our faces. We have found this magical device that locates these sacred jewels that must be gathered to save the world from impending doom. The device fell into our laps because the NPC who was doing the job died (which I guess was our fault seeing as he was kind of a dick and none of the players liked him, so we let him die). Now, after talking with an ancient druid, we learned that we screwed up and have to find the jewels in his place. Now we basically follow the device to the closest jewel and battle or talk our way into getting it, with several subplots that we get embroiled in. Also, the BBEG, or who we assume is the BBEG, also wants the jewels to control the evil Blight that is supposedly ready to destroy the world. Now I guess you can right that off as giving the campaign direction, and its not like it hasn’t been unentertaining. This is the real topic: I just want to know what some of you people would think if thrown in this situation as players. Is the DM just showing off his too-cool NPC or does our party just not like anybody stealing our spotlight? Mind you I play a barbarian and am mostly there just to roll dice and kill things, so I really don’t care about what the DM does, but I have just heard complaining about this subject for so long that I want to know if more players see it as my fellow party members do. So the DM loves the idea of reoccurring NPCs, and it does add flavor. Again I will have to reiterate that half the party is full of themselves and would show little respect to Eliminster if he just happened to pop up. So as we are on the way to reach the first jewel, we meet up with a squire who wants us to help his master fight these trolls in the direction we are going, so we all figure, “Yea, some easy money,” and accept. We later learn that his master (who the squire referred to as a “Paladin”) was some Gray Elf Knight (I think he is a Cleric supremely optimized), who was perhaps the most arrogant SOB we have ever met. We quickly got the impression that the squire might have hired us without the Gray Elf’s consent. In the middle of the night as we journeyed to the Troll’s lair, we are attacked by some of the BBEG’s minions (pretty standard really), the Gray Elf wanders off every night, so he’s not there for most of the fight. We battle the poison using rogues and finally kill them, but not before we get a nice little display of power as a rogue attempts to kill the squire, but is quickly dismembered by the Gray Elf who popped out of nowhere. The squire then goes around and heals everyone; the Gray Elf leaves again after giving the group a sneer of contempt (we start to really like the squire at this point, of course out loathing of the Gray Elf grows). At the Troll’s lair, we discover it’s an abandoned Dwarven stronghold and as we enter we discover that there are two separate paths that can be taken into the dungeon, we finally decide on one, and the Gray Elf deliberately walks down the other, the squire apologizing and chasing after him. So after a descent dungeon delve, killing some monsters and a small dragon, we slip through a secret door an into another part of the dungeon where we find all the monsters in the rooms to be already slain, which angers us as we are missing out on EXP. As we travel down the corridor we finally find the Gray Elf, who is battling a Hydra and has just cut off the last of its heads (so at this point we pretty much figure that we are here to watch the GM’s NPC slaughter everything). Then unfortunately…or fortunately I don’t know which, the Hydra sprouts two heads from each of its stumps, instead of showing us up though the Gray Elf tells us to, “Earn our pay,” then walks off leaving the Hydra to us. Yet another reason why we hated the NPC, so we get messed up pretty bad, but kill the Hydra, afterwards the squire helps heal everyone and again tries to defuse the situation. Now that I think about it the DM did do a good job of slipping from character to character, seeing as the sniveling, placating squire and the supremely arrogant elf were totally different. At this point we join the Gray Elf and enter the den of Trolls, and there are quite a few, with one being exceptionally huge and most demonic looking. The Gray Elf says he’ll take the big one and leaves the rest to us. Well we get into the fight, but one of the PCs (female Elf) decided that she’s taken enough of the Gray Elf’s crap (really I think she wanted to spite the DM), and went to attack the big Troll. So the rest of us battle the Trolls to death, and she fights with the Gray Elf. Unfortunately she gets caught up with the Demonic Troll in some of the Gray Elf’s area of effect spells, and when the troll dies, she is dropped to negatives. The Gray Elf then leaves her to die and makes to leave, well one of the other players was playing the female elf’s twin and after hearing a haughty remark from the Gray Elf about, “don’t give help where its not wanted,” attacks him, which I think immediately is a colossal mistake seeing as we really probably don’t want to fight this guy. The squire tries to fix things by healing up the female elf, but the attack is on, which really doesn’t go anywhere seeing as the elf twin tries to throw oil on the Gray Elf and set him on fire, at which point he misses and manages to do nothing but create a wall of flame that allows the Gray Elf to leave unhindered. The squire, which the majority of the party likes mind you (including me), heals people up and hands out the gold we were promised. At this point the female elf (by the way she is one of the three arrogant PCs who think their optimizers but aren’t) holds a sword to the squires neck and says that the next time they see his master they will kill him. I’ll have to give the DM credit on the squire’s come back line, “Little girl, are you dreaming?” At that point the squire sidles out of the room and runs to catch up with his master. We haven’t seen them since, but in casual talk with the DM he let slip that the Gray Elf and the squire will be one of his reoccurring NPCs, that have really nothing to do with the overall storyline. So is the DM at fault here by showboating his NPC? Or were we players making too big a deal about how powerful the Gray Elf was or was not (we did get the feeling he was powerful, but the DM never let anything like level or any of his modifiers slip, and none of the spells were above what our own members could cast) to let anyone other than ourselves in the spotlight?
Redding MTG Player 07-30-04, 03:47 AM	Well if used well it is ok to have a powerful npc to advance a story but you can't just have a npc be the only one playing while you sit back in a chair and listen to your dm talk. But I think this npc did a good job, hell it evoked emotion, some of the dialog sounds a bit corny and a dm who is better with story telling could have made it more interesting but all in all I say it sounds ok.
Hochi-min trail 07-30-04, 03:56 AM	ok... hmm........ look. the DM shouldn't have made him that powerful, and then, when wanting him not to fight, just tell you the dumb overused line: "earn your pay." in essense, he could have done it all by himself, so why use you? on the other hand, he migh want him to battle you at some point, so he makes him frightening. i think he should have just lowered the CR of the cave. what level are you? and none of the spells were above what our own members could cast) which spels can you cast? p.s i like the squire. how did he have so many healing spells? or maybe potions? a staff?
Tenzhi 07-30-04, 03:57 AM	So the DM had the party involved with a signature NPC for an adventure - no big deal. The party still got to do stuff. The only problem I see, is that if this character truly is a Paladin he wouldn't be catching bystanders in his area effect damage and then leaving them to die from it.
Erelamar 07-30-04, 04:10 AM	We got the notion, or really I got the notion, that it was the Squire who was worried over his master's safety and hired us to help him (which he may or may not have needed, there were alot of Trolls). The squire was using a staff, I think he might have been a reformed rogue or something, because he had to shake it a couple of times just right to get it work all the time. The party was 9th level.
White Mage 07-30-04, 06:13 AM	I really don't see the problem. Obviously the gray elf was not supremely powerfull because he failed with the hydra and needed the party's help on other occasions. I think the DM is doing a good job with the two different peronalities (squire and master) and their interaction. The party got enough to do; probably the gray elf would not even have survived without the party. Missing out on eperience points is really no argument. Especially not in-game! And you already fought some monsters, what's the problem? These dead monsters were just part of the cenery (sp?) Lastly, the DM is obviously portraying the gray elf as an arrogant SOB and it seems to work like a charm. :D So the DM is doing a good job.
CzarGarrett 07-30-04, 08:42 AM	Unless you find out otherwise, I'd guess the squire is the BBEG. He was helping you along because he wanted to somehow or another get whatever jewels you have and/or let you keep going and do his dirty work for him. Keep in mind, that is the guess of me, a random guy from online. Therefore, it's not show-boating the NPC, its getting the players into nasty situations in an attempt to kill them, without actually killing them.
Arrowhen 07-30-04, 11:24 AM	...half the party is full of themselves and would show little respect to Eliminster... some Gray Elf Knight... who was perhaps the most arrogant SOB we have ever met... Heh. Maybe he's there in part to show you guys how obnoxious your behavior is. I'm not too worried about the DM's behaviour in this game. It's doesn't sound like he's throwing impossible encounters at you just so he can have his 'favorite kewl NPC' come rescue you. Creating memorable NPCs is an important part of a DM's job and the fact that this particular NPC has got you all talking about him so much shows that your DM is performing this function of his job admirably. If I were you, I'd be more worried about THIS... one of the PCs (female Elf) decided that she’s taken enough of the Gray Elf’s crap (really I think she wanted to spite the DM) If it's just a matter of the PC acting in character, that's fine, but if the player is really doing things to spite the DM then you have a very serious problem. This is the kind of behavior that KILLS campaigns and ruins real-life relationships. It sounds like you are one of the more level headed players in the group, so you might be the one who has to do something about this player's behavior. You DO NOT want to be part of a game that's devolved into a DM vs. PC grudge match.
Kaminton 07-30-04, 11:41 AM	Hmm, reminds me of that article about that arrogant planetar on this website... You sure he's not some archon in disguise? :) But I do like the "squire is the BBEG" idea.
Camellan 07-30-04, 12:03 PM	Hmm. Everything the GM did sounds fine. Arrogant NPC for them to hate and want to outdo, check. Sympathetic NPC for them to like and want to help out, check. Players did most of the work killing stuff, and hence got the XPs, check. Players got to play. Their major complaint seems to be "there's someone more powerful that us." So what. Sounds like the players are being whiny gits.
Thelandrach 07-30-04, 01:31 PM	What a massively not-fun kind of adventure. The PC's are doing this just to earn some easy cash. They're not needed. The knight could take this dungeon by himself. He goes off and kills all the tough monsters by himself, leaving the party to their own devices. He gets the hydra all riled up, could have killed it and instead makes it TOUGHER, then walks away. If I was playing a character in that game, I'd have walked at that point.
FitzNighteyes 07-30-04, 02:57 PM	Sounds like a great game. I know some players hate it when there is a more powerful character involved even for a short time, but if it's not overused it brings a sense of realism to the world. Sometimes your group will need to accomplish a goal in which there is something too powerful for them (if they don't, the world isn't very real). They need a powerful NPC involved. Sometimes the group needs to accomplish a goal in which there is something only they are powerful enough to take on, but lots of dinky things to deal with at the same time. They need some weaker NPCs along with them to take care of the Dinks, or else they will be overwhelmed by the BBEG(s) while dealing with the Dinks. The PCs can't always be the heroes, but they should of course be the heroes most of the time, or else the fun begins to wane. In this case, I think the DM did a great job of playing a character who needed assistance who was probably more powerful, but was too arrogant to accept that help. Furthermore, it sounds like for the most part, he kept you apart during fights, which is a very smart way to keep the "powerful NPC" gambit from becoming a negative. In addition, he set up the last fight the right way. The NPC took on something only he could fight, and you took on the stuff that would have led to his defeat without you involved. Perfectly executed "powerful NPC" usage for a short adventure. If this happens more than this one time, then you have a problem.
Camellan 07-30-04, 03:16 PM	Originally posted by Thelandrach What a massively not-fun kind of adventure. The PC's are doing this just to earn some easy cash. Which they received. They're not needed. The knight could take this dungeon by himself. That's what he said. None of the NPCs in the games you play in lie or misstate things? Remember the original: by Erelamar we did get the feeling he was powerful, but the DM never let anything like level or any of his modifiers slip, and none of the spells were above what our own members could cast Hmmm. My personal guess is that he's not all that much tougher than the players. He goes off and kills all the tough monsters by himself, leaving the party to their own devices. Nope, to get their own kills/xp without having mr irritating elf steal all the credit/get a share. He gets the hydra all riled up, could have killed it and instead makes it TOUGHER, then walks away. Actually, It's just as probable that he couldn't kill it and that's why he ran like a pansy. Sure he said something arrogant like, "you peons handle it. It's not worth my time." That doesn't make it true. He's arrogant, that doesn't necessarily make him any good. If I was playing a character in that game, I'd have walked at that point. That'd be too bad, doesn't sound to me like the GM did anything wrong. The PCs got to do plenty, kill plenty, and get some good role playing in. They weren't useless, they killed lots of stuff. They weren't overshadowed, after all, mr arrogant elf couldn't kill the big bad without splattering the PC in the process. The rest of the players got to keep the critters off the arrogant elf's back. How is that different from having the fighters engage the monster, while the party wizard flash frys the trolls? One's an NPC seems to be the objection here. Now, if it kept happening, or the PCs were continually forced into the role of "Mr Arrogant Elf's Cohorts" then there'd be room for complaint. One time sounds pretty cool to me. Of cource, to each his own.
MrkGrismer 07-30-04, 03:26 PM	It sounds to me like your DM is working you, and doing a fine job of it. [salute] I've had players in the past mention out-of-game how much they like or dislike certain of my NPCs, at first I was concerned but then I discovered that they loved the fact that they got involved. They didn't hate all of my NPCs, nor did they like all of them. Also, they didn't necessasarily like the ones I wanted them to like or dislike the ones I wanted them to dislike. All in all it adds spice to the game. I don't really see how you can both complain about the NPC killing stuff AND then chopping all the heads off the hydra and leaving it to the party. I will admit, the dungeon was very strange (and the campaign concept sounds like FF7). But it sounds like the DM wants you to dislike this NPC, and maybe wants some of the PCs to learn to be able to deal with things they don't like.
eudas 07-30-04, 03:37 PM	in the words of grandpa simpson, "a little from column A, a little from column B." the grey elf guy (as presented) was a total ass. that sets off anybody who has a decent self-respect. OTOH, your party sounds like they have a few people who are "*I'm* the PC, *I'm* the most important person in this game!!!", which is a dumb attitude if you are in-character, because it's meta-gaming at its worst, and will lead to a lot of "My DM killed us!" or "My PC's don't know how to friggin' run away from danger" threads. in summary, both. eudas
Pentar 07-30-04, 04:03 PM	From the display of how passionately you hate the gray elf knight and how much you like the squire, I'm going to have to applaud the DM on evoking such emotions from the players in a play session. Obviously, he played the Gray Elf knight to be disliked and the squire to be liked. Obviously, he made the Gray Elf Knight powerful, so no matter how much you disliked him, you would not be able to best him. And he set up enough scenarios to display just how unlikeable this Gray Elf knight was. I think you guys are being a little bit too Xp hungry, if when you walk into a room and you see dead creatures, you get ****** off at missing out on XP. That... honestly, smacks of power gaming, and very little roleplaying. Meanwhile, the DM seems to have introduced a LOT of roleplaying with the Gray Elf knight, which again, I have to applaud. If you've ever been a DM, you have to know that if you want to have a re-occuring unlikeable NPC, you have to make him powerful enough that the players; a) cannot kill him, because players are blood thirsty, loot-hungry wolves who will kill anything they don't like just to see if any good loot drops b) are forced to give grudging respect because they can't kill him In your campaign notes alone, you indicated that an important NPC was left to die because the party disliked them. This of course, only managed to complicate matters for yourselves. So there is already a history of this playing group that NPCs you don't like, you let die, or kill off. If the DM wants to keep these characters for the plot, then he has to make sure he reads the party history enough to know how you guys would react, and be able to plan accordingly. I think the DM did a great job, introducing both a good NPC and a bad one, and played them out to the point it evoked real emotion in the players, not just the characters. Bravo.
Erelamar 07-30-04, 04:28 PM	Another factor which I forgot to mention is the way the Gray Elf treated the Squire, which led to our believing that he may be evil. The Squire for all intents and purposes worships the Gray Elf as if you were a living god, and tries to rationalize everything he does in the best of light. When being hired, we asked the Squire about what his master was, and the Squire called him a "something like a Paladin." Now the Gray Elf has absolutely no respect for the Squire (who is a halfling by the way). We see it in the way he barely ever speaks to him, and when he does it is only to give orders. Also in one instance, the morning after we were attacked in the woods by the rogues, the Squire stood on the Gray Elf's horse's saddle and was calling out his name (loudly) trying to get him to return for breakfast. That ended up with a rock clocking the halfling squire in the head and knocking him off the horse to boot, the Gray Elf walked into camp saying something to the effect of, "don't disturb the forest." Also after besting the Demonic Troll, the Squire ran up to his master first, and the Gray Elf did seem to be injured, to tend his wounds and congradulate him. The Gray Elf literally stepped on him and walked out (that was right before his comment about not giving help were it wasn't needed). All the while the halfling squire was never unflinching in his loyalties (though he did save the squire that one time when he was in danger). Just remembered that and thought it might effect what some of you had to say.
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-04, 04:57 PM	This is a real tough one. The DM is clearly very good at acting. He has created memorable NPC's- and that is great. OTOH, there are some danger signs that he may be running a "DMPC" or is "railroading". For now, it sounds OK. But.....:twitch:
Frodo Lives 07-30-04, 10:04 PM	Well, I don't think the DM really did anything wrong. The NPC may have overshadowed the PCs, but the PCs were still important and needed. I'm willing to bet that the NPC isn't any more powerful on paper than the average PC, but simply acts like it. It is amazing how many players take everything NPCs say as gospel. The DM sounds very entertaining and played both NPCs very well. This is much better than some DMs who can't convincingly role play a human being. I would be concerned about some of the party members who would get so enraged at an NPC that is (supposedly) more powerful then they are to the point that they would attack him! I mean really, ever heard of talking? Or even threatening to leave him to his own devices unless he changes his attitude a bit? A much better way of handleing things.
LostDM 07-30-04, 10:58 PM	Doesn't anyone have a dectect evil?
Astanphaeus 07-31-04, 11:19 AM	This seems like a solid campaign to me. The issue appears to be certain players keeping things IC. "Really I think she wanted to spite the DM" is the most glaring occurance of the problem, but not the only one. After reading this thread, I'd like to point out some things that I think should be remembered by players: * NPCs are not just backdrop or cardboard stand-ups. Ideally, they are characters with backgrounds, motivations, and personalities, just like the PCs. To anyone who disagrees with this: read the DMG. Thinking an NPC is going to defer to your character, just because it's a PC, is metagaming, and nowhere in the PHB does it give you any basis for that expectation. Keep it IC. * The world does not have to be tailored to the level of the PCs. Anyone who disagrees with this: read the DMG. Assuming that it will be tailored that way -- that everything will be scaled to the power level of the PCs -- and then basing IG decisions on that assumption, is metagaming. Not only is it metagaming... it's often a very quick way to get a character killed if you're wrong. Keep it IC. * A character can be arrogant, a show-boater, and a liar. Just because a character is, doesn't mean that the person playing it is. It's called roleplaying. Try to keep it IC. * NPCs can be more powerful than PCs. In fact, if the PCs are low level in a status quo world, that'll happen a lot (and less as they gain levels). In certain circumstances, the PCs can be shown up by the NPCs, outclassed by them, and even defeated by them, especially if the PCs have brought that circumstance onto themselves. No, there is nothing wrong with that. If this is a significant issue for you, you might want to stick to CRPG video games... or make a concerted effort to keep it IC. ~ A.