DM Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

DM Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Steelgryphon
06-06-05, 07:41 PM Ok, Ive started this new game with a DM that ive been playing with for a few years. But hes done a "House Rule" on XP. Basicly he gave for 50 xp for taking out 3 normal orcs, a lvl 2 orc sorc and a lvl 1 "soup nazi" orc. I was unarmed and level one and alone. The other person started with a cleric in their cell, i really dont see how this is fair. I managed to fluke a win out of this somhow. (trickery and tactics) How is this fair? my calculations put that at either 1650 or 1500xp. Thats a whole lot more then 50, yes, you heard me 50 flucking exp.

How can i get him to relise that throwing encounters at us THAT hard and expect us to survive.

Note, the player with the cleric died before he got out of his cell, the cleric got hit with 2 magic missiles, couldent heal himself.
Shaken, not Stunned
06-06-05, 08:03 PM Just play. He will see when you die that you will die. If you don't then maybe he was right.
Radijs
06-06-05, 08:06 PM I'm more concerned with the cleric who was killed so quickly. did he have a chance to defend himself?
The Half-Orc Wizard
06-06-05, 08:18 PM Prithee, what is a "soup nazi" orc?

I love that episode so much... :rofl:

Anyway, your DM needs a good smack on the head. As a lone first level character, that is a very difficult task. Assuming he has no other reason for denying you 1000+ experience you earned (and I can't see any that he could have), you have every right to demand more experience. Yes, I know he runs the game and can change any rule he wants, but that act is lowering the enjoyment for you (which I can understand). Remind him the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, and at this rate, you won't level for the next year. Not any fun at all.

G'luck.
Shaken, not Stunned
06-06-05, 08:39 PM Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, they weren't full CR orcs? Maybe they were just really, really stupid gaurd types who have 1hp because they just got back from a huge fight? Maybe they were zombie-orcs. My point is, you really don't understand what is going on as well as your DM does, and before you go off and 'demand' experience, why don't you wait and be sure you deserve it.

In fact, let's do a little math, here. A level on orc has a cr of 1(-1) for NPC class. That puts it at 1/2, I think. So, two orcs are CR 1. the exp for a CR 1 encounter is 300. if the soup nazi was somehow enough to boost it to CR 2m (which would put him at a CR over 1, I think), that is 400. If they weren't going to kill you if you lost (which seems unlikely given the cleric was killed, but they may not have intended to), that halfs the EXP IIRC. 200 exp. If they were already tired or had already been fighting and taken damage, that halves it again. So that is 100exp. So. Maybe 1500 exp is a little much?

And, BTW, 3 orc fighters would have killed you barring DM intervention, so maybe he already realized his mistake and fixed it, halfing the CR again.

Now, I am not saying that he did what he did because of all this math above me, only that what he did is ok based on all this math above me.
The Half-Orc Wizard
06-06-05, 09:06 PM You're taking a lot of assumptions in that, Shaken. Is it possible that's the way it happened? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no. And you are still forgetting about the level 2 sorc.
Shaken, not Stunned
06-06-05, 09:22 PM Oh, admittedly. But so to is the OP, and that is my point.
Lord Schpungus
06-07-05, 12:32 AM microleveling of this caliber can't be enjoyable for players. Talk to the DM and see if you can't come to a compromise about more xp for overcoming grave challenges. If he tries to come at you with some misguided "players shouldn't know the rules" idiocy, then, well, he's a bad man.
Steelgryphon
06-07-05, 08:49 AM Prithee, what is a "soup nazi" orc?

It was an orc with a giant bowl of soup and a renforced ladle as a weapon

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, they weren't full CR orcs? Maybe they were just really, really stupid gaurd types who have 1hp because they just got back from a huge fight? Maybe they were zombie-orcs. My point is, you really don't understand what is going on as well as your DM does, and before you go off and 'demand' experience, why don't you wait and be sure you deserve it.

I asked him about there levels and thats wht he told me

the 3 orcs were normal half CR orcs
the sorc was lvl 2
and the soup nazi was a level 1 fighter.

and i was mistaken about cr 1 i thought it was 350 lol

thius is my math

normal orcs (150xp each) 3x150=450
Sorc 600
Soup nazi 300

ttl 1350xp=450+600+300

and i was alone, and i managed to kill 2 in 2 hits, 12 and 11 damage to the sorc and a normal orc, then the AoOs kill the other 2 orcs (combat reflexes with 16 dex) so that left me with 2, then the other 2 attackd, with crappy rolls in the open, droped me to 2, then i proceded to kill the soup nazi with a crit, and the the other orc cower in a corner, then i smote him. All his rolls were in the open.

And the other 2 characters were in a differnt cell away from this encounter.
Marialice
06-07-05, 09:24 AM Well, consider this. The other PC died the first session, so there will probably be a new PC next time, starting at 0 xp. Could it be possible that your DM didn't want to a large xp gap at the beginning of his campaign, so he chose to give you a (very large!) bit less this first session?

You really should talk to your dm about this if you feel you aren't having fun. After all, that's what the game is all about. But try to be a bit reasonable, and allow your DM his own mistakes ;)
Shaken, not Stunned
06-07-05, 02:15 PM One does not add the base EXP to be awarded fro every monster killed to get total EXP to be gained. You combine the CRs to get a EL, and earn experience based off of that. if something has a CR less than 1, you need a number of creature sufficient that the total would be 1 to get a EL 1. After that, every time you double the number, you add two to the CR. Fractions of the doubling don't count.

If you have monsters of different CRs, then you have to use a more complex formula which is explained in chart form in the DMG.
Steelgryphon
06-07-05, 02:53 PM Oh, well, then, dident know that. We always did it that way lol, thanks for the insight. But still, either way, it comes out to be a whole butt load more xp then i got. And i did my fight before the other guy, so the dm wouldnt have known hed die at such inferior odds.

So lemme see if i get this

the table in the DMG (the one with the xp values right) you would get the EL like this

for 1 orc, its EL half right?
for 3 orcs, is it EL 1 right?
for a lvl 2 sorc its EL 2 right?
and for a lvl 1 soup nazi fighter its EL 1 right? so an EL of 4 for a 4 PC party right? so 1200xp? (My Xp may be off, i dotn have the book infront of me, but are my ELs right?
NinjaPenguin
06-07-05, 07:09 PM Shaken, your statement is false according to the DMG. You earn XP based on the CR of creatures you defeat. EL is simply a convient measuring stick for the DM to tell him/her how likely a party it to deal with it. XP awards are based on CR of monsters (and traps, of course)
Steelgryphon
06-07-05, 07:20 PM so then would I be right for the xp?
450 for 3 normal orcs
600 for lvl 2 sorc
300 for Lvl 1 fighter
ttl=1350?

Im so confused
NinjaPenguin
06-07-05, 07:29 PM That is right... 1350 XP

Your DM just either doesn't wanna give you XP, or doesn't understand the XP system
Steelgryphon
06-07-05, 08:55 PM Oh he understands it, I think he was just on a power trip then.
OctoberRaven
06-07-05, 10:06 PM Unless he fudged that battle big-time, I'd say winning (hell, even surviving) a 5-orcs-on-1 unarmed is worth at least 1500. I'd bonus it to the max of 2999 (highest you can get without leveling up twice in one day) because that fight was extremely lopsided in the Orcs favor (even if one was a soup nazi).

Even if he fudged it, I would object to anything less than half the normal XP.
20goingon1232
06-07-05, 11:00 PM He didn't fudge it. All the rolls were in the open. Steelgyphon posted that earlier. It seems to be more a case of good rolls vs bad rolls to me....
Phrennzy
06-08-05, 10:25 AM Have you asked him why he is giving you 50xp? And does this new house rule change how much XP it takes to go up a level?

Have you asked him why the house rule exists?
Cymraegmorgan
06-08-05, 02:17 PM Ok, Ive started this new game with a DM that ive been playing with for a few years. But hes done a "House Rule" on XP. Basicly he gave for 50 xp for taking out 3 normal orcs, a lvl 2 orc sorc and a lvl 1 "soup nazi" orc. I was unarmed and level one and alone. The other person started with a cleric in their cell, i really dont see how this is fair. I managed to fluke a win out of this somhow. (trickery and tactics) How is this fair? my calculations put that at either 1650 or 1500xp. Thats a whole lot more then 50, yes, you heard me 50 flucking exp.

Maybe he gimped your XP because his years of experience DMing for you told him that this was not much of a challenge for you, the player. It could be that your DM expected such experienced players to handle the situation better. Maybe you were meant to keep one or more of the orcs alive, or coordinate your PCs better. Maybe math is not your DM's strong suit. Maybe it was all a bad dream.
CelineSSauve
06-08-05, 05:28 PM I've read most of the DMG (I've just skimmed the magical items section but read all that comes before that) and it says that if the PCs won an overly hard challenge due to luck (as you seem to be saying happened with the rolls) there should not be full XP granted.

Now, I'll also point out that I only have the 3rd ed books so if that advice changed in 3.5 please correct me. And I'll make a note.

*Cel
Capt. Pixel
06-08-05, 05:52 PM I understand that many of you are trying to fill the 'Devil's Advocate' role here. But the fact is, regardless of the 'unknowable circumstances', the OPs PC should have been awarded far more than 50xp. If he was 1st level as seems to be implied, he accomplished a major feat of tactics, skill and no small amount of luck. :rolleyes: (I award 50xp for a really bad joke at the table sometimes.)

I vote the OPs PC should go directly to Second Level, do not pass GO, do not collect more than 1000xp and start rolling your hit points for second level. :cool:
Steelgryphon
06-08-05, 06:12 PM I understand that many of you are trying to fill the 'Devil's Advocate' role here. But the fact is, regardless of the 'unknowable circumstances', the OPs PC should have been awarded far more than 50xp. If he was 1st level as seems to be implied, he accomplished a major feat of tactics, skill and no small amount of luck. (I award 50xp for a really bad joke at the table sometimes.)

I vote the OPs PC should go directly to Second Level, do not pass GO, do not collect more than 1000xp and start rolling your hit points for second level.

I so agree lol. I had been playing Splinter cell earlier taking out gaurds without them knowing what happend (shoot one, then KO another from behind and grab a third and interogate him before they really knew what was going on lol. So i described it as Splinter Celling lol.

But i agree, i shouldnet go to 2999xp, cause thats just sick lol. But i should atleast get to lvl 2.

Also when were on the subject.

I have another question about the xp system

For example, your XP to go from lvl 4 to 5 is 10000(lvl 4 min) and 15000 (lvl 5min) When you hit level 4, does your XP go back down to 0? or does it stay at 10000, so you only need 5000xp?
CelineSSauve
06-08-05, 06:21 PM You keep the same XP as before, so you'd need another 5,000 XP to advance.

*Cel
was_fired
06-08-05, 06:22 PM Your XP is a cumulative total. When you level you often get a chunk of the XP which you will use to complete that level. ie I have 912 XP and get 100 more, I now have 1012XP.
NinjaPenguin
06-09-05, 12:15 PM Yes... the XP table is slightly ambiguous to some folks. The totals are cumulative in that...

Level 1 you have 0 XP
Level 2 you have 1000 XP (total)
Level 3 you have 3000 XP (total), meaning you needed 2000 more to get from 2 to 3.

Personally i scrap that table entirely for an equivalent, but simpler system.

You are level X. You need X*1000 XP to be able to level. Pay that much XP to level up to X+1. Since you can't spend enough XP to lower your level, it makes the most sense to me to just keep an 'until next level' sort of system.

I has a DM that misread the table that you restarted at 0 each level and had to reach the new total... um... that sucked a lot :P We 'corrected' him gently, as we couldn't find the hammer gun. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelgryphon 06-06-05, 07:41 PM	Ok, Ive started this new game with a DM that ive been playing with for a few years. But hes done a "House Rule" on XP. Basicly he gave for 50 xp for taking out 3 normal orcs, a lvl 2 orc sorc and a lvl 1 "soup nazi" orc. I was unarmed and level one and alone. The other person started with a cleric in their cell, i really dont see how this is fair. I managed to fluke a win out of this somhow. (trickery and tactics) How is this fair? my calculations put that at either 1650 or 1500xp. Thats a whole lot more then 50, yes, you heard me 50 flucking exp. How can i get him to relise that throwing encounters at us THAT hard and expect us to survive. Note, the player with the cleric died before he got out of his cell, the cleric got hit with 2 magic missiles, couldent heal himself.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-06-05, 08:03 PM	Just play. He will see when you die that you will die. If you don't then maybe he was right.
Radijs 06-06-05, 08:06 PM	I'm more concerned with the cleric who was killed so quickly. did he have a chance to defend himself?
The Half-Orc Wizard 06-06-05, 08:18 PM	Prithee, what is a "soup nazi" orc? I love that episode so much... :rofl: Anyway, your DM needs a good smack on the head. As a lone first level character, that is a very difficult task. Assuming he has no other reason for denying you 1000+ experience you earned (and I can't see any that he could have), you have every right to demand more experience. Yes, I know he runs the game and can change any rule he wants, but that act is lowering the enjoyment for you (which I can understand). Remind him the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, and at this rate, you won't level for the next year. Not any fun at all. G'luck.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-06-05, 08:39 PM	Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, they weren't full CR orcs? Maybe they were just really, really stupid gaurd types who have 1hp because they just got back from a huge fight? Maybe they were zombie-orcs. My point is, you really don't understand what is going on as well as your DM does, and before you go off and 'demand' experience, why don't you wait and be sure you deserve it. In fact, let's do a little math, here. A level on orc has a cr of 1(-1) for NPC class. That puts it at 1/2, I think. So, two orcs are CR 1. the exp for a CR 1 encounter is 300. if the soup nazi was somehow enough to boost it to CR 2m (which would put him at a CR over 1, I think), that is 400. If they weren't going to kill you if you lost (which seems unlikely given the cleric was killed, but they may not have intended to), that halfs the EXP IIRC. 200 exp. If they were already tired or had already been fighting and taken damage, that halves it again. So that is 100exp. So. Maybe 1500 exp is a little much? And, BTW, 3 orc fighters would have killed you barring DM intervention, so maybe he already realized his mistake and fixed it, halfing the CR again. Now, I am not saying that he did what he did because of all this math above me, only that what he did is ok based on all this math above me.
The Half-Orc Wizard 06-06-05, 09:06 PM	You're taking a lot of assumptions in that, Shaken. Is it possible that's the way it happened? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no. And you are still forgetting about the level 2 sorc.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-06-05, 09:22 PM	Oh, admittedly. But so to is the OP, and that is my point.
Lord Schpungus 06-07-05, 12:32 AM	microleveling of this caliber can't be enjoyable for players. Talk to the DM and see if you can't come to a compromise about more xp for overcoming grave challenges. If he tries to come at you with some misguided "players shouldn't know the rules" idiocy, then, well, he's a bad man.
Steelgryphon 06-07-05, 08:49 AM	Prithee, what is a "soup nazi" orc? It was an orc with a giant bowl of soup and a renforced ladle as a weapon Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, they weren't full CR orcs? Maybe they were just really, really stupid gaurd types who have 1hp because they just got back from a huge fight? Maybe they were zombie-orcs. My point is, you really don't understand what is going on as well as your DM does, and before you go off and 'demand' experience, why don't you wait and be sure you deserve it. I asked him about there levels and thats wht he told me the 3 orcs were normal half CR orcs the sorc was lvl 2 and the soup nazi was a level 1 fighter. and i was mistaken about cr 1 i thought it was 350 lol thius is my math normal orcs (150xp each) 3x150=450 Sorc 600 Soup nazi 300 ttl 1350xp=450+600+300 and i was alone, and i managed to kill 2 in 2 hits, 12 and 11 damage to the sorc and a normal orc, then the AoOs kill the other 2 orcs (combat reflexes with 16 dex) so that left me with 2, then the other 2 attackd, with crappy rolls in the open, droped me to 2, then i proceded to kill the soup nazi with a crit, and the the other orc cower in a corner, then i smote him. All his rolls were in the open. And the other 2 characters were in a differnt cell away from this encounter.
Marialice 06-07-05, 09:24 AM	Well, consider this. The other PC died the first session, so there will probably be a new PC next time, starting at 0 xp. Could it be possible that your DM didn't want to a large xp gap at the beginning of his campaign, so he chose to give you a (very large!) bit less this first session? You really should talk to your dm about this if you feel you aren't having fun. After all, that's what the game is all about. But try to be a bit reasonable, and allow your DM his own mistakes ;)
Shaken, not Stunned 06-07-05, 02:15 PM	One does not add the base EXP to be awarded fro every monster killed to get total EXP to be gained. You combine the CRs to get a EL, and earn experience based off of that. if something has a CR less than 1, you need a number of creature sufficient that the total would be 1 to get a EL 1. After that, every time you double the number, you add two to the CR. Fractions of the doubling don't count. If you have monsters of different CRs, then you have to use a more complex formula which is explained in chart form in the DMG.
Steelgryphon 06-07-05, 02:53 PM	Oh, well, then, dident know that. We always did it that way lol, thanks for the insight. But still, either way, it comes out to be a whole butt load more xp then i got. And i did my fight before the other guy, so the dm wouldnt have known hed die at such inferior odds. So lemme see if i get this the table in the DMG (the one with the xp values right) you would get the EL like this for 1 orc, its EL half right? for 3 orcs, is it EL 1 right? for a lvl 2 sorc its EL 2 right? and for a lvl 1 soup nazi fighter its EL 1 right? so an EL of 4 for a 4 PC party right? so 1200xp? (My Xp may be off, i dotn have the book infront of me, but are my ELs right?
NinjaPenguin 06-07-05, 07:09 PM	Shaken, your statement is false according to the DMG. You earn XP based on the CR of creatures you defeat. EL is simply a convient measuring stick for the DM to tell him/her how likely a party it to deal with it. XP awards are based on CR of monsters (and traps, of course)
Steelgryphon 06-07-05, 07:20 PM	so then would I be right for the xp? 450 for 3 normal orcs 600 for lvl 2 sorc 300 for Lvl 1 fighter ttl=1350? Im so confused
NinjaPenguin 06-07-05, 07:29 PM	That is right... 1350 XP Your DM just either doesn't wanna give you XP, or doesn't understand the XP system
Steelgryphon 06-07-05, 08:55 PM	Oh he understands it, I think he was just on a power trip then.
OctoberRaven 06-07-05, 10:06 PM	Unless he fudged that battle big-time, I'd say winning (hell, even surviving) a 5-orcs-on-1 unarmed is worth at least 1500. I'd bonus it to the max of 2999 (highest you can get without leveling up twice in one day) because that fight was extremely lopsided in the Orcs favor (even if one was a soup nazi). Even if he fudged it, I would object to anything less than half the normal XP.
20goingon1232 06-07-05, 11:00 PM	He didn't fudge it. All the rolls were in the open. Steelgyphon posted that earlier. It seems to be more a case of good rolls vs bad rolls to me....
Phrennzy 06-08-05, 10:25 AM	Have you asked him why he is giving you 50xp? And does this new house rule change how much XP it takes to go up a level? Have you asked him why the house rule exists?
Cymraegmorgan 06-08-05, 02:17 PM	Ok, Ive started this new game with a DM that ive been playing with for a few years. But hes done a "House Rule" on XP. Basicly he gave for 50 xp for taking out 3 normal orcs, a lvl 2 orc sorc and a lvl 1 "soup nazi" orc. I was unarmed and level one and alone. The other person started with a cleric in their cell, i really dont see how this is fair. I managed to fluke a win out of this somhow. (trickery and tactics) How is this fair? my calculations put that at either 1650 or 1500xp. Thats a whole lot more then 50, yes, you heard me 50 flucking exp. Maybe he gimped your XP because his years of experience DMing for you told him that this was not much of a challenge for you, the player. It could be that your DM expected such experienced players to handle the situation better. Maybe you were meant to keep one or more of the orcs alive, or coordinate your PCs better. Maybe math is not your DM's strong suit. Maybe it was all a bad dream.
CelineSSauve 06-08-05, 05:28 PM	I've read most of the DMG (I've just skimmed the magical items section but read all that comes before that) and it says that if the PCs won an overly hard challenge due to luck (as you seem to be saying happened with the rolls) there should not be full XP granted. Now, I'll also point out that I only have the 3rd ed books so if that advice changed in 3.5 please correct me. And I'll make a note. *Cel
Capt. Pixel 06-08-05, 05:52 PM	I understand that many of you are trying to fill the 'Devil's Advocate' role here. But the fact is, regardless of the 'unknowable circumstances', the OPs PC should have been awarded far more than 50xp. If he was 1st level as seems to be implied, he accomplished a major feat of tactics, skill and no small amount of luck. :rolleyes: (I award 50xp for a really bad joke at the table sometimes.) I vote the OPs PC should go directly to Second Level, do not pass GO, do not collect more than 1000xp and start rolling your hit points for second level. :cool:
Steelgryphon 06-08-05, 06:12 PM	I understand that many of you are trying to fill the 'Devil's Advocate' role here. But the fact is, regardless of the 'unknowable circumstances', the OPs PC should have been awarded far more than 50xp. If he was 1st level as seems to be implied, he accomplished a major feat of tactics, skill and no small amount of luck. (I award 50xp for a really bad joke at the table sometimes.) I vote the OPs PC should go directly to Second Level, do not pass GO, do not collect more than 1000xp and start rolling your hit points for second level. I so agree lol. I had been playing Splinter cell earlier taking out gaurds without them knowing what happend (shoot one, then KO another from behind and grab a third and interogate him before they really knew what was going on lol. So i described it as Splinter Celling lol. But i agree, i shouldnet go to 2999xp, cause thats just sick lol. But i should atleast get to lvl 2. Also when were on the subject. I have another question about the xp system For example, your XP to go from lvl 4 to 5 is 10000(lvl 4 min) and 15000 (lvl 5min) When you hit level 4, does your XP go back down to 0? or does it stay at 10000, so you only need 5000xp?
CelineSSauve 06-08-05, 06:21 PM	You keep the same XP as before, so you'd need another 5,000 XP to advance. *Cel
was_fired 06-08-05, 06:22 PM	Your XP is a cumulative total. When you level you often get a chunk of the XP which you will use to complete that level. ie I have 912 XP and get 100 more, I now have 1012XP.
NinjaPenguin 06-09-05, 12:15 PM	Yes... the XP table is slightly ambiguous to some folks. The totals are cumulative in that... Level 1 you have 0 XP Level 2 you have 1000 XP (total) Level 3 you have 3000 XP (total), meaning you needed 2000 more to get from 2 to 3. Personally i scrap that table entirely for an equivalent, but simpler system. You are level X. You need X*1000 XP to be able to level. Pay that much XP to level up to X+1. Since you can't spend enough XP to lower your level, it makes the most sense to me to just keep an 'until next level' sort of system. I has a DM that misread the table that you restarted at 0 each level and had to reach the new total... um... that sucked a lot :P We 'corrected' him gently, as we couldn't find the hammer gun. ;)