Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-02-06, 07:49 PM	HI everyone, THis is my first post, i have been lurking for some time, but now I have a problem with my local DM and need some ideas. We just started a game, we all drew up our characters with him ahead of time, so the first night we could get right to play... but then I relized what the others were. I am playing a 4th warlock(Complete arcane) spell scale (Races of dragon) Ok, well then there is my best friend playing a 2nd rouge/1st fighter teifling (monster man I) He let him buy a gun from the DMG, except he made it touch attacks. They also discussed that he can use the enchantment form the realms to autoload the gun (It was for crossbows) Then our other good friend playing 3rd cleric 1/2 giant (Psi hand book) THen comes the DMs younger brother, normaly I call him a friend, but I think the relationshop to the DM may be important. He is playing a HUman samurai, but the DM didn't agree with complete warrior stats, so here is what they came up with Gestalt Fighter/Knight (Knight from PHBII) but swap out the first level bonus feat of fighter for the ancestral disho from oriental campaigns. THen, on top of this the Katana does 2D6 damage instead of bastard sword damage, and it has an 18+/x3 crit range. Now, I told him (The dm, a good friend of mine) after game that I felt that the samurai rules were a little unfair. He and his brother went on to tell me for hours how much better samurai were to knights, and the katana was to Europe swords. well I rolled with it, becuse we have never worried about 'balance' before, but this is the first time I have ever noticed the scale tip so much. Every Monday, Wednesday, and Sunday I role-play, and once a month I larp. so this is far from my only game, but what does everyone here think?
Voldar_Mecorthio 07-02-06, 08:02 PM	He's a jerk. DMs who favor some players over others should be shot in the with seventeen hammers, one of which should be aimed below the belt. I don't care how much "better" samuri or katanas were, balance is good. Very good. Better than shreding the rules because he thinks that asian mideval combat was better than european. Tell the brother and the DM that he should make the katana a masterwork bastard sword, the samuri either the complete warrior class or maybe just a knight or fighter with asian flavor but no change to the mechanics, and if they refuse give them an ultimatium. They balance his character or you leave. If they refuse, leave. The DM would probibly give his bro tons of powerful items, he could probibly get away with anything, and other very bad things that stem from DM favoritism.
GMforPowergamers 07-02-06, 08:05 PM	is your DM named paul? ok sorry on a seriuse note, I have a group of friends that think that think that way too. "ANything oreantal is BETTER" DOn't let it get you down. my advice bring up the balance issue in your own head: Here is what I read you have here: a fighter with D12 hd (1-2 hp better per level) with a magic sword (there is an exulted feat that gives the same) that gave up a feat for that, has a good will save and some funky challange ablities. Since you will be magic support, be happy for a meatsheild that has better hps and the ablity to call threats to him. I would be more upset with that gun if I were you, you are a range blaster, that could end up competing with that gunsligner in a few games.
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-02-06, 09:29 PM	Voldar_Mecorthio He's a jerk. DMs who favor some players over others should be shot in the with seventeen hammers, one of which should be aimed below the belt. I don't care how much "better" samuri or katanas were, balance is good. Very good. Better than shreding the rules because he thinks that asian mideval combat was better than european. Tell the brother and the DM that he should make the katana a masterwork bastard sword, the samuri either the complete warrior class or maybe just a knight or fighter with asian flavor but no change to the mechanics, and if they refuse give them an ultimatium. They balance his character or you leave. If they refuse, leave. The DM would probibly give his bro tons of powerful items, he could probibly get away with anything, and other very bad things that stem from DM favoritism.. 1st, the DM is NOT a jerk, he may be wrong, but he is a great guy, all be it wrong 2nd I hope you were joking about the Hammers, I am not normally that violent...1 hammer below the belt should do ;) 3rd as far as balance goes, normally we don't worry about it, we PCs balance ourselves pretty well, but this whole gestalt thing is a bit much... 4th he already gave him a powerful item, by letting him power up his sword at levels. GMforPowergamers is your DM named paul? ok sorry on a seriuse note, I have a group of friends that think that think that way too. "ANything oreantal is BETTER" DOn't let it get you down. my advice bring up the balance issue in your own head: Here is what I read you have here: a fighter with D12 hd (1-2 hp better per level) with a magic sword (there is an exulted feat that gives the same) that gave up a feat for that, has a good will save and some funky challange ablities. Since you will be magic support, be happy for a meatsheild that has better hps and the ablity to call threats to him. I would be more upset with that gun if I were you, you are a range blaster, that could end up competing with that gunsligner in a few games. 1) no not named paul, I take it something like this happened to you 2) I forgot about the exulted feat ,you said something, so I guess that isn't so bad, but the rest still feels overwhelming even after what you said. 3) as for the gun, I don't plan on fighting much, I am the party 'Face' with all my skills and feats going toward cha skills. thanks for the two different view points. you both gave me some great ways to think about this, even if I think both of you are too extreme, either to forgiving or too opposed
Damior 07-02-06, 09:38 PM	ugh... another "katanas are uber" idiot. Please direct him to the thread on these boards that dispells the myth. I do not know exactly were it was located, but its here somewhere. Also, what is he thinking making a gun be a touch attack!? So having a plate of solid steel between you and the bullet is no better than if you had no armor at all!? Your DM deserves to not only be shot with a hammergun, but to be shot from it. At a clone of himself.
Cifer 07-02-06, 09:48 PM	Let's just say there is a reason why katana-threads were banned from the equipment forum (*) - fanboys (or possibly otaku?) often get a bit... enthusiastic about them. I'd advise arguing with the game balance here - Samurai may be stronger than others and katana mightier, but so are demiliches and fire giants. Player characters should have one level of strength and if a class and/or weapon is obviously better than others, it should not be available. And yes, this argument is of course more than flawed, but it might work. Oh, about the gun: If you want some historical backing, full plate armor was invented after guns and every suit was only given approval of the guild masters when it sustained a shot from musket from close range. It would have been stupid to invent a protection which was obsolete at the time of its invention, and the world has always been anything but stupid regarding ways to kill each other or preventing others from doing so. (*: general thread style: "Katanas are uber kewl l331 weaponz. The best stats for them would be 1d20/15-20/*5."-"Actually, they are not. Scientific sources X, Y and Z show that, on the contrary..."-"Yes, they are! Everyone knows that Katanas are uber kewl l331 weaponz! The best stats for them would be 1d20/15-20/*5.")
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-02-06, 09:58 PM	Damior ugh... another "katanas are uber" idiot. Please direct him to the thread on these boards that dispells the myth. I do not know exactly were it was located, but its here somewhere. Also, what is he thinking making a gun be a touch attack!? So having a plate of solid steel between you and the bullet is no better than if you had no armor at all!? Your DM deserves to not only be shot with a hammergun, but to be shot from it. At a clone of himself. OK, so beating sense into him is a reacurring theam here... The gun thing came from an arguement that the resone armor stoped being used was becuse of guns...I don't know if it is true, I almost failed history, so maybe there is a reason maybe not... Cifer Let's just say there is a reason why katana-threads were banned from the equipment forum (*) - fanboys (or possibly otaku?) often get a bit... enthusiastic about them. I'd advise arguing with the game balance here - Samurai may be stronger than others and katana mightier, but so are demiliches and fire giants. Player characters should have one level of strength and if a class and/or weapon is obviously better than others, it should not be available. And yes, this argument is of course more than flawed, but it might work. (*: general thread style: "Katanas are uber kewl l331 weaponz. The best stats for them would be 1d20/15-20/*5."-"Actually, they are not. Scientific sources X, Y and Z show that, on the contrary..."-"Yes, they are! Everyone knows that Katanas are uber kewl l331 weaponz! The best stats for them would be 1d20/15-20/*5.") I hope the 1D20 15+/x5 crit is a joke, but if not then boy am I glad it is only 2D6 18+/x3 in this game. no I take that back, the more I think about it the more I am leaning toward that hammer...hammer gun what ever it was. what is the matter with 1D10 19+/x2????????????????? thanks again for answering my quastions :cloud9:
Cifer 07-02-06, 10:00 PM	About the guns, please regard my edit.
JayDubya 07-02-06, 10:04 PM	Uber katana that self upgrades. Gestalt Fighter / Knight (good idea, but no one else is gestalt, yes?). Player is the DM's little brother... Yeah, I'd tell him to fix it or I'd bail. That's just stupid. I'd probably just bail anyway because just griping about it isn't going to fix the problem if the DM was dumb enough to allow for it. I've DM'd for my wife and vice versa in probably close to 100 sessions by now, and we've never displayed favoritism or pulled punches in combat or given special items... well, I take that back. I did give her a Rancor mount when we played in d20 Star Wars, but it was too young to use until the very, very end of the campaign, and then too big to be involved in the final fights (Rancors don't fit on most space stations afterall). That, and I made a very angry Hutt want what he considered his pet back. It was more a plot device / comic relief element than anything else. :rofl: Usually, we go out of our way to show that we're not biased by being slightly biased against one another in arbitrations. The point is, if your DM already doesn't understand WHY he shouldn't do things like this, that's a problem. * * * HOWEVER. You obviously love D&D and are involved in many games. There's not neccessarily harm in being in one totally screwball unbalanced game as long as it is fun.
Elvesir 07-02-06, 10:08 PM	well im sorry to admit it but your friend is right, asian weapons were superior to medievel weapons, nut theres to things you can point out first in what way is d&d based on real history, and second in d&d terms thats why a kitana is masterwork. AS for the brother thing noth my bros play with me and I dont give them a damn thing extra. as a matter of fact i make things harder on them than other players cus I know they can handle it. If you want to get back at your friend buy a Kitana and beat at his own game
Cifer 07-02-06, 10:20 PM	well im sorry to admit it but your friend is right, asian weapons were superior to medievel weapons Mind giving a source? For everything I have learned from the history geeks of this board, the "superior smithing technique" of japanese smiths was basically the only way to get something one could fight with out of the inferior material available on an island with few metal resources. As Wikipedia put it: The european had the choice between good expensive swords and bad cheap swords. The japanese had the choice between good expensive swords, bad slightly less expensive swords and no swords at all.
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-02-06, 10:37 PM	Cifer Oh, about the gun: If you want some historical backing, full plate armor was invented after guns and every suit was only given approval of the guild masters when it sustained a shot from musket from close range. It would have been stupid to invent a protection which was obsolete at the time of its invention, and the world has always been anything but stupid regarding ways to kill each other or preventing others from doing so. OK, I failed history, but what about other armors, did all armor stop bullets if so maybe I say something, but again that rule doesn't bug me that much JayDubya Uber katana that self upgrades. Gestalt Fighter / Knight (good idea, but no one else is gestalt, yes?). Player is the DM's little brother...[/QUOTE [QUOTE]The point is, if your DM already doesn't understand WHY he shouldn't do things like this, that's a problem. * * * HOWEVER. You obviously love D&D and are involved in many games. There's not neccessarily harm in being in one totally screwball unbalanced game as long as it is fun. no one else is gestalt, as I posted before, but I guess you are right about one screw ball game not being too bad trust me I have been in worse. Trust me nothing in D&D is worse then as a Female player a Male GM has a crush on you :inlove:, wont admit it, but gives you everything in game, and makes you the center point of a game. as fun as it sounds, remember the other players are not nice to you about these things... Elvesir & Cifer well im sorry to admit it but your friend is right, asian weapons were superior to medievel weapons Mind giving a source? For everything I have learned from the history geeks of this board, the "superior smithing technique" of japanese smiths was basically the only way to get something one could fight with out of the inferior material available on an island with few metal resources. nut theres to things you can point out first in what way is d&d based on real history, and second in d&d terms thats why a kitana is masterwork. please don't fight about this, I would hate to think I started a fight here. The rules for the katana wouldn't be so bad if they didn't come with an over powered class to go with it
JayDubya 07-02-06, 10:55 PM	Trust me nothing in D&D is worse then as a Female player a Male GM has a crush on you :inlove:, wont admit it, but gives you everything in game, and makes you the center point of a game. as fun as it sounds, remember the other players are not nice to you about these things... What you're describing is probably annoying, but also very similar to games like Diablo or World of Warcraft in which people just give Amazons or Night Elf Warriors things for free just because "OMG R U A REEL GURL?" :rofl: I wouldn't know what that is like, but I imagine it would get irritating, and would also undermine your ability to be taken seriously as "one of the guys" in the gaming group. I think from a player's perspective, that would be pretty irritating. Like I said, the wife and I are very careful not to give any special treatment to one another in-game. This helps when we're playing board games as well, avoiding the "you're sleeping on the couch!" thing when I totally betray her (or usually vice versa). :D
Cifer 07-02-06, 10:58 PM	OK, I failed history, but what about other armors, did all armor stop bullets if so maybe I say something, but again that rule doesn't bug me that much They didn't stop bullets, in the same way that not all armor did stop all melee weapons - in fact, just about every new generation of weapons was built to get through the armours of the period, while every new generation of armour was built to hold off the new weapons. The fact that some scraps of leather protect less well than a masterful suit of full plate is reflected by their difference in armor bonus. Trust me nothing in D&D is worse then as a Female player a Male GM has a crush on you Well... seems as if I had to trust you on that one, since I am lacking that second X-chromosome and female DMs are hard to come by and usually more direct in their approaches... please don't fight about this, I would hate to think I started a fight here. You did read the boards, didn't you? This was a mere debate, which is more or less what the boards are there for. For actual fights, go to the alignment threads or those where people debate whether optimization is compatible with good RP.
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-02-06, 11:37 PM	You did read the boards, didn't you? This was a mere debate, which is more or less what the boards are there for. For actual fights, go to the alignment threads or those where people debate whether optimization is compatible with good RP. Yes I did read these boards, I just didn't want my first post to be one of 'THose threads' Well... seems as if I had to trust you on that one, since I am lacking that second X-chromosome and female DMs are hard to come by and usually more direct in their approaches... ok, but trust me, it is bad. when I was in Highschool and playing 2e I had a DM leave a book with every spell in the PHB and Tomb of Magic in it in a 3rd level dungeon. When I was a Mage. latter, in hte same dungeon we found potions that gave you perm hitpoints, 2 that had 1D6 in it, and 1 that had 1D12 in it. We were going to give them to the Fighter and Paladin in the group when all of a sudden we found out they only work for mages. then as we left the dungeon a Drow attacked the party, and when he died we found he had a magic quarterstaff, and I was the only PC that could use one. the next game in town he had a handsome Elvin prince give me Mithral Elvin chain +5. so going out on our second adventure I as a mage had a better adjusted thac0, a better AC, and more HP then either of our two combat players. yea, so that went over soooo well :twitch:
RoamingArcher 07-02-06, 11:41 PM	The way I see things, you could point the DM to Oriental Adventures to solve the gestalt issue. The firearms should be fine as regular attacks. For example: The bonus from padded armor is minimal, while full plate's bonus is massive. So argue that with your DM. :teach:As for the katana, you have to argue that while the Japanese made better swords than the average European blade, that doesn't mean that Europeans couldn't make well made swords. The katana is a well made sword, so it's masterwork, and the katana can be held in one or both hands, so it is quite similar to the bastard sword, so the katana is a masterwork bastard sword. If you gain no ground on the issue, it's time to find a hammer gun. :angelhide
sneak_Blast 07-02-06, 11:44 PM	GUNS DO NOT MAKE TOUCH ATTACKS! A gunshot will not necessarily go through full plate. Same with a greataxe. If a gunshot hits the tip of your finger, it is not the same as if it hit in the head. Tell your DM this.
Kapalen 07-03-06, 01:03 AM	I argued for about a week with a friend why guns shouldn't automatically kill anything they touch. I did this in the most humorous manner of yelling at him and making a stabbing motion. In the end the point is, how is a chunk of lead anymore likely to go through armor than a sharpened piece of steel designed to do just that? As for the whole samurai/katana thing.... my God. ASk him to post a thread on here asking if that sounds legit and then let him defend his position against the board members.
Kagetto156 07-03-06, 01:43 AM	I say bite him works for me :D
kelvinaw273 07-03-06, 04:36 AM	I think you need to speak to your DM in terms of Game Balance, not "Samurai were Kool!" Agree with him that Samurai were indeed cool, and highly trained, but that game balance requires that player characters all be of approximately the same power, and gestalting a character class effectively gives it +1 ECL. Regarding katanas, I can speak with a little authority having practiced with both the katana and the bastard sword: katana is smaller and lighter than the bastard sword, and is used in a completely different manner. That said, it inflicts comparable damage and is of exceptional quality. 1d10 19+/*2 is perfectly reasonable for a katana. The tachi is a sword often confused with the katana - basically the same but bigger. A tachi was the same size as a bastard sword, but had the quality and edge of a katana. A tachi would only be used two-handed, but 2d6 19+/*2 would be very much appropriate for it. Lastly, back on the subject of the medieval knight vs the samurai, it would be reasonable to say that the knights armour was of the same quality and workmanship as the samurai's katana. The knight's heavy sword would go through the samurai's armour easier than the katan would crack the knight's armour, but the samurai was more likely to connect. In other words, the knight vs samurai was actually pretty much a stand-off - both were trained from childhood in combat arts. Just because they were different arts does not make either less effective.
draco1119 07-03-06, 05:17 AM	This is actually the first time in history that they have made armor which is actually better than the weapons trying to penetrate it. And they only managed to do that with 70 ton tanks. :rolleyes: Seriously, I'm not going to say anything about the base damage for the katana, but 18+/x3 is too extreme. A longbow (which is actually the reason for armor becoming extinct) is a 20/x3 weapon, I'm sorry, but no matter how good the katana may be, it's not that good.
Gilean 07-03-06, 07:21 AM	The stats of the katana are relevant exactly as much as they make the game less fun for the participants. They are not realistic, of course, but who cares? If the game is made less fun by some out-of-game component (such as favouritism), it must be dealt with outside the game. Talk to the GM. Not about realism, not about balance, but about fun. "This rule makes my play not fun, because it marginalises my character." If the GM likes you, the matter will get fixed.
JayDubya 07-03-06, 08:06 AM	If we're talking katanas again (wasn't this banned from the Equipment subforum lol?) a nodachi would be a masterwork greatsword, for the 2d6 19-20, x2, +1 to attack. Damage is increased by increasing size, not quality. 2d6 one handed for a base weapon is absurdist. Furthermore, d20 Modern should fix the gun thing - a gun is not a touch attack. Full plate can be worn in d20 Modern as well, and it still provides a flat +8 to AC. Knight / Fighter gestalt in the absence of other gestalts is something that's just outright stupid. If one player is gestalt, all players must be gestalts. The rules on these things are pretty clear, and pretty clearly noted in the apropriate sourcebooks.
Bulletproof_Condom 07-03-06, 08:14 AM	So you're in with a half-giant cleric (which could be worse), a tiefling rogue with a self-loading gun, and a gestalt character. You got hosed. Gestalt characters are simply not supposed to be mixed with nongestalt characters under any circumstances. If he's a gestalt fighter/knight with the 3.0 ancestral daisho, that basically gives him three classes, not two. I mean, I don't like the Complete Warrior samurai class either, but replacing it with a gestalt is like trying to patch up a hole in the bathroom wall with an entire tool shed; it's over the top and problematic. I'd just leave. But you may want to try it for a session or two. Could be fun anyway, but I doubt it.
CryoSilver 07-03-06, 09:47 AM	I say you just roll with it; it isn't worth arguing over. Rather, you should try and get yourself some free candy. If the kid gets a sword thats basically a Balanced, Keen +1 Greataxe, and someone else gets a free gun enhancement, you should get something of comparable value; a +2 weapon or the like. If your DM likes you, this should not be a problem.
Garr123 07-03-06, 10:21 AM	If he's so down on it being an "omg honest real samurai", regardless of quality of weapon, samurai didn't wear heavy armor, they wore a combination of leather and wood. You can explain that while he thinks samurai may have had super weapons compared to european knights, that they sure as hell didn't have better armor.
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-03-06, 11:39 AM	just so you all know I am on the phone with the GM now Garr123 If he's so down on it being an "omg honest real samurai", regardless of quality of weapon, samurai didn't wear heavy armor, they wore a combination of leather and wood. You can explain that while he thinks samurai may have had super weapons compared to european knights, that they sure as hell didn't have better armor. The samurai in question doesn't wear heavy armor. so that isn't a problem. He is in an armor from oriental campaigns call ashagaru (I think I spelled that wrong) and he uses expertise. CryoSilver I say you just roll with it; it isn't worth arguing over. Rather, you should try and get yourself some free candy. If the kid gets a sword thats basically a Balanced, Keen +1 Greataxe, and someone else gets a free gun enhancement, you should get something of comparable value; a +2 weapon or the like. If your DM likes you, this should not be a problem. He didn't give out the gun enchantment, they only discussed that it will work when the teifling can afford it. Bulletproof_Condom So you're in with a half-giant cleric (which could be worse), a tiefling rogue with a self-loading gun, and a gestalt character. You got hosed. Gestalt characters are simply not supposed to be mixed with nongestalt characters under any circumstances. If he's a gestalt fighter/knight with the 3.0 ancestral daisho, that basically gives him three classes, not two. right now the gun isn't self loading, it will become that when they can afford it, and the 1/2 giant is a race any of use could take. SO I don't see the problems JayDubyaDamage is increased by increasing size, not quality. 2d6 one handed for a base weapon is absurdist. Furthermore, d20 Modern should fix the gun thing - a gun is not a touch attack. Full plate can be worn in d20 Modern as well, and it still provides a flat +8 to AC. Knight / Fighter gestalt in the absence of other gestalts is something that's just outright stupid. If one player is gestalt, all players must be gestalts. Well thank you for the D20 modern that I have pointed out, I should have remembered that myself. As for the game, well here is what the Dm is saying: "THe katana is from a 3rd part supp. It is call Laminated serrated Master work and it costs over 1500gp for it, so I think it is balanced, you can buy weapons like that too, he just got it early" "THe gun you are just wrong about how it works...IT ignores light and medium armor, but not magical enhancements to them, and it reduces heavy armor by 2 pts. it only seamed like touch attacks against the orcs because they had chain shirts on, and the 1/2 drow at the end that had the magic leather, I still counted the +1." "I didn't think the gestalt would be a problem, it gives him the challenge ability and the bonus feats, except no feat at first level." then I reminded him about the HD increase and the will save increase and the skill increase, and then I read him some of these responses... "Boy am I glad I don't go on those boards, they would kill me for what I do to sorcerer...but hey, they may have a point let me talk to {his bro}" so maybe this will make things much better. I am going to lunch with some friends, then going to game, so I will let you know how it is latter.
Cifer 07-03-06, 12:38 PM	"THe gun you are just wrong about how it works...IT ignores light and medium armor, but not magical enhancements to them, and it reduces heavy armor by 2 pts. it only seamed like touch attacks against the orcs because they had chain shirts on, and the 1/2 drow at the end that had the magic leather, I still counted the +1." And why should it do that? Funnily enough, breast plates were used by cavalry units even in modern ages. If you start doing that, you can go on to say that rapiers should be quite effective against chain armour since they circumvent the idea behind them and apply pressure to one or two links only. Also, you might want to add that you should stop daggers from hurting people in full plate altogether since there is about no way a plate could be penetrated by a feeble dagger. Once you start thinking about how realistic certain rules are, it will become hard to stop. "THe katana is from a 3rd part supp. It is call Laminated serrated Master work and it costs over 1500gp for it, so I think it is balanced, you can buy weapons like that too, he just got it early" Sounds very, very fishy. D&D has basically established that no weapon can have a crit multiplier over *2 if it has a threat range bigger than 20 or vice versa. Also, 1500 GP will be peanuts as soon as you go up in level - but the 18-20/*3 will stay or rather become a 15-20/*3 as soon as the thing gets a keen enchantment for a mere +1 price. (*) Surely not every 3rd party supplement is automatically broken, but this is over the top. (*) The weapon statistics that will stay important through the levels are usually: Finesseability, possibility to use onehanded, crit rating, reach and special stuff (like the guisarme's trip ability). The damage done by the weapon will soon become irrelevant since you will do the most damage by strength bonusses and enchantments.
RoamingArcher 07-03-06, 04:34 PM	I agree with cifer. That 3rd party supplement is as broken as psionics in second edition. Use historical referecnes, wikipedia, and argueing about balance. But if nothing else works, you have three options: #1: Invoke Rule -1: Players don't have to put up with :censored:. #2: Reap the windfall, pick up exotic weapon profiency (katana), buy one and know with each broken swing and critical, you tried. Or take #3: The Katanaxe-Chucks! First, you take a katana, and put an axe head on the handle. Then, link it to another katanaxe with some chains. Now apply poison to it. Always use them until your DM fixes the katanas.
simon_tage 07-03-06, 04:48 PM	Ask him to read Samurai vs Knight in Dragon #323.
Leagle 07-03-06, 08:24 PM	is your DM named paul? Are you from the PUGS?
taradusis 07-03-06, 08:52 PM	Ask who the samurai is loyal to and if he follows a code of bushido?A samurai who becomes a ronin loses some benefits and a samurai who dishonors himself is in trouble also.
a_psh 07-03-06, 09:58 PM	"THe katana is from a 3rd part supp. It is call Laminated serrated Master work and it costs over 1500gp for it, so I think it is balanced, you can buy weapons like that too, he just got it early"Sounds like one of those old "we can sell more of these books if we just make everything ridiculously overpowered!" books that flooded the market shortly after 3.0 came out. Mongoose and many smaller companies. Definitely not something that's very compatible with the core D&D system. Just because someone published it doesn't mean it doesn't suck. ;)
Jere_RB 07-04-06, 12:41 AM	Honestly, it doesn't seem so bad. No DM will be a perfect DM: every one will have their own predilictions and preferences. If his only misstep is giving his kid brother a bada$$ katana, count your blessings that you have an efficient meat shield and go along with it. So long as everyone else at the table gets the spotlight from time to time and all are enjoying themselves, then all is well.
TheMeanOne 07-04-06, 01:13 AM	The gestalt things bugs me, I'd point out that in Unearthed Arcana it clearly says This variant works only if every PC in the campaign uses it If I was you, I'd simply ask to be able to create a gestalt character as well. It could help balance things out, and it'll make for an exciting campaign.
Rogue_Jedi_99 07-05-06, 09:33 PM	You just need to speak to your DM. I almost lost a cool group of guys to the fact we didnt communicate between players and the DM. We get into arguements sometimes but we always end up with a solution and everyone knows what exactly the beef is.
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-06-06, 04:37 PM	well here we are, game ran monday night, and it kicked ass. The DM took a look at the board for me, and here is what happened, his brother got a level adjustment of +1 for the gestault. that was all that was needed too, becuse yea, he kickes ass in fightes, and has lots of options, but I still do all the social intaction, and still have eldritch blast for combat, the teifling is still not any sort of problme, and the cleric just is a great all around character, he fights front line withte h warrior, and heals us after the fight. Both the teifling and the Samurai bought off there LA this game as per the rules in unearthed arcana. I also am going for the prestige class Spy master, so I picked up a level of rouge this level. As per that book with the swords, it is Mercenaries from AEG. It seams a good book, yes the weapon is a little overpowered, BUT since he is the onyl front line fighter, who cares. I wont weild a katana, neither will anyone else, heck, me and the teifling only have knives as back up weapons for melee. SO thanks for everyones ideas, but I did blow it out of proportion, it wasn't that bad after all... :D
Cifer 07-06-06, 06:51 PM	Both the teifling and the Samurai bought off there LA this game as per the rules in unearthed arcana. This might be considered funny... the samurai is now one level behind you. He gets more XP than the rest of you do and will be back on-par pretty soon. Balance-wise, the LA-buyoff works only as long as there is one boost of abilities which becomes more and more irrelevant when advancing in levels. The tiefling illustrates this quite well: He gets one spell-like and some resistances, which can be replicated easily in later levels so his lost level becomes less worth than the abilities it granted him -resulting in the possibility to buy it off. If you have fun with it, that's ok, but be aware that the samurai has only been made marginally weaker, if at all.
wonlee76 07-06-06, 08:16 PM	In all honesty, I'd ask if I could play a gestalt PC (presuming I'm not one to begin with) and whatever I did choose uses the uber katana. Balance is balance but hell, if your DM is allowing one PC a huge advantage in powergaming, may as well ride the wave. Get a solid gestalt PC who likes katanas because they are far superior to any other melee weapon in the PHB.
clarkvalentine 07-06-06, 08:35 PM	The gun thing came from an arguement that the resone armor stoped being used was becuse of guns...I don't know if it is true It's not. The reasons heavy armor fell out of fashion were many, but the biggest were economic.
Draconian220 07-07-06, 12:21 AM	Trust me nothing in D&D is worse then as a Female player a Male GM has a crush on you :inlove:, wont admit it, but gives you everything in game, and makes you the center point of a game. as fun as it sounds, remember the other players are not nice to you about these things... Ive been that girl.... and your right, nothing worse. Cause yes, getting cool items is fun, but not when the rest of the party hates you for the reason you got them :tantrum: lol
RoleplaygirlTabby 07-07-06, 03:46 PM	Ive been that girl.... and your right, nothing worse. Cause yes, getting cool items is fun, but not when the rest of the party hates you for the reason you got them :tantrum: lol can I ask you, have you ever had a male GM that didn't know you treat you like one of the guys? Many say they do, but I either get the watered down make things easy for you, or the let me give you stuff cause your cute thing. Once DMs know me, they normaly treat me like any other player, but I find it harder to begin with...
clarkvalentine 07-07-06, 07:20 PM	My wife is a player in the game I DM, if I treated her with kid gloves I'd end up on the couch.
ShadowDragon8685 07-07-06, 08:16 PM	To the OP: You obviously need one of these: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif Because your DM is either blatently letting his bro cheat, or he's a complete and total ****tard. Samurai were not 'better' than medieval Knights. A Knight in full plate would have handed a samurai his ass. And platemail is in fact effective against muskets. Full Plate Armor didn't go out of vogue because it was ineffective, it went out of vogue because it was [explitive] and [explitive-explitive] expensive, and as armies shifted away from noblemen in full plate to a ****ton of commoners armed with muskets, and the noblemen stayed out of the way where they woulden't be shot anyhow, there was no need for it.
TheMeanOne 07-07-06, 11:12 PM	In a funny fluke almost all the people I game with regularly are women. My girlfriend DMs for a game where out of 5 player we have only one guy!
LuckyLeprechaun 07-07-06, 11:29 PM	Full Plate Armor didn't go out of vogue because it was ineffective, it went out of vogue because it was [explitive] and [explitive-explitive] expensive, and as armies shifted away from noblemen in full plate to a ****ton of commoners armed with muskets, and the noblemen stayed out of the way where they woulden't be shot anyhow, there was no need for it. Also because it was getting heavier and heavier to keep up with the muskets, and it got so heavy they had to remove the legs from it. Which naturally opened them up to fire. Plus, if you fell over in the platemail, it would be unlikely that your getting back up.
Trobon the Orange 07-09-06, 02:15 AM	Ok. I tryed to restrain myself, but I can't. Katanas, while better made and usually sharper and more deadly, were fragil as glass. Using a Katana against someone who was wearing armor would almost certently break the Katana. So if he want realism keep the stats but when it hits an armored foe the Katana breaks 70% of the time. There I sadi it and can move on.... whew.
draco1119 07-09-06, 03:21 AM	In a funny fluke almost all the people I game with regularly are women. My girlfriend DMs for a game where out of 5 player we have only one guy! I wanna join your group! :D
Elemental 07-09-06, 09:13 AM	Mind giving a source? For everything I have learned from the history geeks of this board, the "superior smithing technique" of japanese smiths was basically the only way to get something one could fight with out of the inferior material available on an island with few metal resources. As Wikipedia put it: The european had the choice between good expensive swords and bad cheap swords. The japanese had the choice between good expensive swords, bad slightly less expensive swords and no swords at all. I wonder, is there a Western weapon that's as idealised in Japan as katanas are over here? Maybe somewhere in Japan, a DM is wearily listening to a player argue that his greatsword should be able to cut through a tank, and his longbow should be a touch attack, because it punches through any armour.
clarkvalentine 07-09-06, 02:31 PM	Plus, if you fell over in the platemail, it would be unlikely that your getting back up. Plate armor was heavy, but no heavier than a modern infantryman's full kit - they manage to fight OK. Heavy and cumbersome? Yeah. So heavy you're dsiabled if you end up fallen over? Not quite.
FeceMan 07-09-06, 04:21 PM	Longsword > katana.
a_psh 07-09-06, 04:24 PM	I wonder, is there a Western weapon that's as idealised in Japan as katanas are over here? Maybe somewhere in Japan, a DM is wearily listening to a player argue that his greatsword should be able to cut through a tank, and his longbow should be a touch attack, because it punches through any armour.Yes, the symmetry exists. Mainly in the form of drooling over big two-handed swords. Good examples include Cloud's insane-o sword in Final Fantasy VII or the weapon wielded by the protagonist of Berserk.
Psychoticpsymon 07-09-06, 05:34 PM	Yes, the symmetry exists. Mainly in the form of drooling over big two-handed swords. Good examples include Cloud's insane-o sword in Final Fantasy VII or the weapon wielded by the protagonist of Berserk. You, symmetry boy (this is not meant to be an insult), in america people who idealise japanese things idealise real things, for example the katana (A weapon widely used in the time period). FF and movies are not very good examples... do they enjoy the average knight's sword as well?
a_psh 07-09-06, 08:40 PM	You, symmetry boy (this is not meant to be an insult), in america people who idealise japanese things idealise real things, for example the katana (A weapon widely used in the time period). FF and movies are not very good examples... do they enjoy the average knight's sword as well?A katana that can cut through 20 people and never loses its edge and was made by folding steel two-hundred thousand times and is 1000 years old is not a real thing by any measure of the word. That's what the popular American version of the katana tends to be like (c.f. Highlander). Just because the Japanese exaggerate the shape of greatswords more than we exaggerate the shape of katanas doesn't mean there isn't the same kind of obsessive hyperbole. Note also: anything associated with ninjas.
Psychoticpsymon 07-09-06, 09:00 PM	Mmmm, 'kay. Sounds funny. I listen to some japanese music too, and I note that they randomly insert english sentances and words in occasionally, which I always thought was cool in american music too :D
ShadowDragon8685 07-09-06, 11:32 PM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/KatanaMotivator.jpg A picture is worth a thousand words, and I have said enough.
FeceMan 07-10-06, 12:53 AM	Longsword > katana. ._.
kelvinaw273 07-10-06, 07:58 AM	Ok. I tryed to restrain myself, but I can't. Katanas, while better made and usually sharper and more deadly, were fragil as glass. Using a Katana against someone who was wearing armor would almost certently break the Katana. So if he want realism keep the stats but when it hits an armored foe the Katana breaks 70% of the time. There I sadi it and can move on.... whew. A katana was not as 'fragile as glass' unless it was very badly made - a good one could bend through 45 degrees and spring back. The secret was in the folding that layered the metal and the final heat and quench. In this latter process the katana was tempred so that the edge was very hard (and this would normally make it brittle) but the back of the blade was softer (and tougher, reinforcing the edge so that it would not break) by using varying thicknesses of clay on the blade before the quench. This combination of hard and tough was what made the katana able to hold such a sharpe edge and yet not break when it hit something. The katana was good ... but it wasn't that good. It was not easy to use, you had to cut in certain ways to do so effectively, and thrusting was never easy. But if you knew how to use it it was the finest and deadliest personal melee weapon a man could wield. In any event, western swords also broke a great deal of the time, save for the very best made ones. They had the same problem, in that sharpness, hardness and toughness had to be compromised with each other. The best way of forging a western sword was to twist and forge together long rods of steel of varying composition of hard and tough. By binding these together a composite could be made. Quenching in snow helped by cooling the edges faster than the centre to get a similar effect to the katana quench. A well-made katana had a pattern of heat tempering down the edge like waves, whereas a well-made western sword had a 'serpent pattern' of plaitwork visible down the length of the blade. Getting around problems: using some magical metals could get around these problems. Mithral and adamantite would have properties that make them very strong, and in the case of mithral very light. Mithral could be used to enhance weapons like the rapier, elven thinblade and longblade, and the katana (perhaps lightening it enough to make it a finessable weapon?). Adamantite could be used to make blades that were tougher and unbreakable. Perhaps the failure of weapons to break in D&D is due to them having alloys of such, or a core of adamantite?
ShadowDragon8685 07-10-06, 10:16 AM	Perhaps the failure of weapons to break in D&D is due to them having alloys of such, or a core of adamantite? Sure. For the weapons that aren't forged out of the metal, you're SOL, though. D&D weapons don't break until sunderized because it's entirely unheroic and entirely more bookkeeping than most DMs want to put up with. And most DMs realize that if they make a habit of sunderizing their player's weapons, the players are going to sunderize their DM Screen with a thrown DMG. :D
TarlSS 07-10-06, 11:31 AM	The Japanese obsess over mayonaisse. There's a restaurant featuring all mayonaisse dishes. It's horrid.
feartheinvinceblehamster 07-10-06, 03:09 PM	Yes mayonaisse is rather awful. I think that Hellman was just that: A man from hell. Wow, that got of topic fast.