DM's "plot hook" [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM's "plot hook" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nani?
01-18-05, 10:53 PM I am in a game, playing a CG Sorceress who is Chaotic for a very good reason. On one hand she is from a upperclass/noble family, however, at age 9 her family was massacured by the new Emperor. Father was a paladin, and the whole family had a reputation for goodness that very well might be blood related.

Needless to say, she had to run for her life, spent time begging and even prostituteing herself before magic started to return her sense of dignity and self respect (which in turn caused her to have more concern for others). Her father, in her opinion was an idiot for walking into a massacure with most of his family.

Problem is, the DM want to rewrite this, suggesting I was the victim of a programmed amnesia or the like. He is trying to involve me in a plot hook, I think he is going a step too far.. While I don't nessacarilly mind finding out part of my history is not as I percieve it, He is hinting that I should alter how I play the character so that in time I can become the new ruler. I'm not sure if I like this.
This DM is not a tyrantgenerally, and I can talk to him. Question, how would you approach him, trying to get him to revise his well ment "plot hook".

All the Best,

Nani?
Thorak
01-18-05, 11:24 PM If you haven't started the game yet, he's not rewriting anything. He's telling you what your character's background will be, adjusting what you propose to fit his concept of the world. This is necessary, so that PCs don't just declare themselves to be royal princes who then proceed to knock on the castle doors and demand access to the treasury.

If you have started the game yet, the DM deserves a smack. He obviously approved the background, in the process I detailed above, and therefore has no right to be changing it. Any more than he can say "Oh, the BBEG isn't that anti-paladin any more, I changed it into this kobold sorceror." It's just bad DMing.
was_fired
01-19-05, 12:05 AM Awwww I always liked the kobold trick. Nothing confuses PCs more than defeating the BBEG only to find out he was a cohort, mind controlled, or an illusion. :P
e-z0r
01-19-05, 02:33 AM I say hold on to your character. Especially since your BG was so much better anyway.
Thoronmir
01-19-05, 01:02 PM As is usually the case, your solution lies in simply repeating what you posted here to your DM. In fact, you’re better off than most posters since your DM isn’t “generally” a tyrant. As for how to discuss this issue with your DM, my only advice is to make sure you speak English (unless your DM doesn’t understand English, in which case, you may need to improvise). But, without knowing you and your DM, we’re not well situated to hand out pointers on how to communicate. You know your DM better than we do … you have the best chance of knowing how to effectively resolve the dispute.

That said, if you’re just looking for ammunition to show your DM that you’re right, I agree with the other responses. While a DM is free to tweak PC backgrounds to suit his world, he ought not to rewrite them entirely. While it’s appropriate for the DM to decide that not all of what a PC knows is actually true, he ought not to render all of the PC’s memories illusions. Most importantly, while a DM can certainly set parameters for backgrounds to make sure the PCs all have roles to play in the DM’s “grand design,” he ought not to force any PC into a particular role.

On a side note … am I the only one who read “massacured” and envisioned a Benny Hinn telecast?
e-z0r
01-19-05, 01:26 PM Besides if you were going to use mysterious hints from a forgotten past as a plot hook, why would you tell about it BEFOREHAND?

You'd ofc use the confusion and paranoia as a RP tool to create emotions..
Thorak
01-19-05, 02:44 PM If you haven't started the game yet, he's not rewriting anything. He's telling you what your character's background will be, adjusting what you propose to fit his concept of the world. This is necessary, so that PCs don't just declare themselves to be royal princes who then proceed to knock on the castle doors and demand access to the treasury.

If you have started the game yet, the DM deserves a smack. He obviously approved the background, in the process I detailed above, and therefore has no right to be changing it. Any more than he can say "Oh, the BBEG isn't that anti-paladin any more, I changed it into this kobold sorceror." It's just bad DMing.
But even then, the BBEG is the same guy. You just didn't catch him that time. I'm talking about stopping your quest to catch and kill Keergor the Slayer, the horrible anti-paladin slaying innocents all over the land, and declaring the Keergor never existed. Not in a "he was actually an illusion" kind of way, in a "rewind time, none of that happened, nor am I even going to come up with a decent copout like "it was a vision" or some such garbage" kind of way.

As for the rest of the comments; and to reiterate what I first said; DMs can tweak histories. They can muck with what a character thinks they know. But they shouldn't pull a lame copout like amnesia to force them to actually have the history they want them to have. It's lame in fiction, it's even lamer in an RPG.

I recall one similar recent post, about a ranger whose history was that he was orphaned and raised by elves. The player's complaint was that the DM tweaked this, such that the character's father was not only alive, he was a nasty kind of guy, the kind of person who wouldn't have any compunctions about abandoning their son. My position in that thread was that the DM didn't change your stated history that he'd approved. He'd pointed out that some of what your character had believed was in fact untrue, and in a really interesting way.

As opposed to here, where the DM is trying to not only say those things were misinterpreted, but that they were entirely fallacious and didn't exist.

If it were me, my character would go insane. Literally. Memories define who we are. Knowing those aren't true, the character would be utterly lost. Nothing like the main caster going catatonic mid-dungeon because the DM's being a wanker to get the whole party miffed at the DM. As long as you're very clear what's making you RP it this way.
Nani?
01-19-05, 03:37 PM Two things I found out as to why he's doing this.

1) My character has a high enough dex/con + a cloak of protection +3. Therefore, I feel more comfortable staying in the line of fire a little longer then the "typical" spellslinger. He interprets this as bad tactics on my part and is trying to "help" me.

2) Also, he has seen me take actions to protect the party which he didn't see as such. Specifically, we were dealing with a guide to the ruin we were supposed to visit. Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight. I tried smooth over the situation, make sure the guide was not alienated etc. This was especially important because we were in a desert not all the party was particularly good at survival. Also this NPC might alienate the local nomad tribe against us, or at least that was my interpretation. To him, that was not a possiblity.
In the end, considering the stakes (many lives beside the party's were at stake) when this NPC was unwilling to deal and he insulted me, I finished him off. That way the tale wouldn't get out. As far as I was concerned I was looking out for the greater good, though not through a good act.

I meet with him in 20 minutes. Thanks for your help.

All the Best,

Nani?
e-z0r
01-19-05, 07:24 PM Don't change the way you play a character because a DM tells you he doesn't see eye to eye with what you're doing. Unless he means that you're disrupting the game and making it less fun for everyone else.

Until such a time, roleplay your character. Sometimes things happen to us real people and to RPG characters that open up our eyes, and we change the way we act. Until the world tells your character to change, I see no reason why she should. Unless she feels like it, of course.
Thorak
01-19-05, 09:30 PM Two things I found out as to why he's doing this.

1) My character has a high enough dex/con + a cloak of protection +3. Therefore, I feel more comfortable staying in the line of fire a little longer then the "typical" spellslinger. He interprets this as bad tactics on my part and is trying to "help" me.
Bad tactics aren't the DM's problem. And I don't see how changing your background "helps" you in changing them, anyway.
2) Also, he has seen me take actions to protect the party which he didn't see as such. Specifically, we were dealing with a guide to the ruin we were supposed to visit. Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight. I tried smooth over the situation, make sure the guide was not alienated etc. This was especially important because we were in a desert not all the party was particularly good at survival. Also this NPC might alienate the local nomad tribe against us, or at least that was my interpretation. To him, that was not a possiblity.
In the end, considering the stakes (many lives beside the party's were at stake) when this NPC was unwilling to deal and he insulted me, I finished him off. That way the tale wouldn't get out. As far as I was concerned I was looking out for the greater good, though not through a good act.
Perfectly reasonable. If you weren't Good. But you know that, from your last sentence.
That said, you're not forced to act your alignment in every instance. You'd just feel really awful about killing him, no matter how you justified it to yourself (in-character, of course). If you don't feel awful, then your character probably isn't really Good any more, in which case an alignment, not a background, change is what's required.

Not that an alignment change is even a bad thing. Too many people think you've failed if your character changes alignment. That's bunk. People change, especially under the kinds of stress a D&D character sees. My current paladin has skated on pretty thin ice at several times, at one point raging against his God, who he at the time felt abandoned by for no good reason. If things had continued that way, he very well might have fallen from paladinhood and become at least Neutral Good, if not Chaotic, eventually. And probably less Good as well, since he keeps getting screwed in trying to do the right thing. Does this mean I'm playing him improperly? No, it means I'm deliberately playing someone who doesn't find the mantle of paladinhood an easy one to bear. Which I find fun and interesting.
MrkGrismer
01-20-05, 03:42 PM Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight.

There is always one. :rolleyes:

This is what happens when humans interfere with evolution. Let the defect die!

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nani? 01-18-05, 10:53 PM	I am in a game, playing a CG Sorceress who is Chaotic for a very good reason. On one hand she is from a upperclass/noble family, however, at age 9 her family was massacured by the new Emperor. Father was a paladin, and the whole family had a reputation for goodness that very well might be blood related. Needless to say, she had to run for her life, spent time begging and even prostituteing herself before magic started to return her sense of dignity and self respect (which in turn caused her to have more concern for others). Her father, in her opinion was an idiot for walking into a massacure with most of his family. Problem is, the DM want to rewrite this, suggesting I was the victim of a programmed amnesia or the like. He is trying to involve me in a plot hook, I think he is going a step too far.. While I don't nessacarilly mind finding out part of my history is not as I percieve it, He is hinting that I should alter how I play the character so that in time I can become the new ruler. I'm not sure if I like this. This DM is not a tyrantgenerally, and I can talk to him. Question, how would you approach him, trying to get him to revise his well ment "plot hook". All the Best, Nani?
Thorak 01-18-05, 11:24 PM	If you haven't started the game yet, he's not rewriting anything. He's telling you what your character's background will be, adjusting what you propose to fit his concept of the world. This is necessary, so that PCs don't just declare themselves to be royal princes who then proceed to knock on the castle doors and demand access to the treasury. If you have started the game yet, the DM deserves a smack. He obviously approved the background, in the process I detailed above, and therefore has no right to be changing it. Any more than he can say "Oh, the BBEG isn't that anti-paladin any more, I changed it into this kobold sorceror." It's just bad DMing.
was_fired 01-19-05, 12:05 AM	Awwww I always liked the kobold trick. Nothing confuses PCs more than defeating the BBEG only to find out he was a cohort, mind controlled, or an illusion. :P
e-z0r 01-19-05, 02:33 AM	I say hold on to your character. Especially since your BG was so much better anyway.
Thoronmir 01-19-05, 01:02 PM	As is usually the case, your solution lies in simply repeating what you posted here to your DM. In fact, you’re better off than most posters since your DM isn’t “generally” a tyrant. As for how to discuss this issue with your DM, my only advice is to make sure you speak English (unless your DM doesn’t understand English, in which case, you may need to improvise). But, without knowing you and your DM, we’re not well situated to hand out pointers on how to communicate. You know your DM better than we do … you have the best chance of knowing how to effectively resolve the dispute. That said, if you’re just looking for ammunition to show your DM that you’re right, I agree with the other responses. While a DM is free to tweak PC backgrounds to suit his world, he ought not to rewrite them entirely. While it’s appropriate for the DM to decide that not all of what a PC knows is actually true, he ought not to render all of the PC’s memories illusions. Most importantly, while a DM can certainly set parameters for backgrounds to make sure the PCs all have roles to play in the DM’s “grand design,” he ought not to force any PC into a particular role. On a side note … am I the only one who read “massacured” and envisioned a Benny Hinn telecast?
e-z0r 01-19-05, 01:26 PM	Besides if you were going to use mysterious hints from a forgotten past as a plot hook, why would you tell about it BEFOREHAND? You'd ofc use the confusion and paranoia as a RP tool to create emotions..
Thorak 01-19-05, 02:44 PM	If you haven't started the game yet, he's not rewriting anything. He's telling you what your character's background will be, adjusting what you propose to fit his concept of the world. This is necessary, so that PCs don't just declare themselves to be royal princes who then proceed to knock on the castle doors and demand access to the treasury. If you have started the game yet, the DM deserves a smack. He obviously approved the background, in the process I detailed above, and therefore has no right to be changing it. Any more than he can say "Oh, the BBEG isn't that anti-paladin any more, I changed it into this kobold sorceror." It's just bad DMing. But even then, the BBEG is the same guy. You just didn't catch him that time. I'm talking about stopping your quest to catch and kill Keergor the Slayer, the horrible anti-paladin slaying innocents all over the land, and declaring the Keergor never existed. Not in a "he was actually an illusion" kind of way, in a "rewind time, none of that happened, nor am I even going to come up with a decent copout like "it was a vision" or some such garbage" kind of way. As for the rest of the comments; and to reiterate what I first said; DMs can tweak histories. They can muck with what a character thinks they know. But they shouldn't pull a lame copout like amnesia to force them to actually have the history they want them to have. It's lame in fiction, it's even lamer in an RPG. I recall one similar recent post, about a ranger whose history was that he was orphaned and raised by elves. The player's complaint was that the DM tweaked this, such that the character's father was not only alive, he was a nasty kind of guy, the kind of person who wouldn't have any compunctions about abandoning their son. My position in that thread was that the DM didn't change your stated history that he'd approved. He'd pointed out that some of what your character had believed was in fact untrue, and in a really interesting way. As opposed to here, where the DM is trying to not only say those things were misinterpreted, but that they were entirely fallacious and didn't exist. If it were me, my character would go insane. Literally. Memories define who we are. Knowing those aren't true, the character would be utterly lost. Nothing like the main caster going catatonic mid-dungeon because the DM's being a wanker to get the whole party miffed at the DM. As long as you're very clear what's making you RP it this way.
Nani? 01-19-05, 03:37 PM	Two things I found out as to why he's doing this. 1) My character has a high enough dex/con + a cloak of protection +3. Therefore, I feel more comfortable staying in the line of fire a little longer then the "typical" spellslinger. He interprets this as bad tactics on my part and is trying to "help" me. 2) Also, he has seen me take actions to protect the party which he didn't see as such. Specifically, we were dealing with a guide to the ruin we were supposed to visit. Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight. I tried smooth over the situation, make sure the guide was not alienated etc. This was especially important because we were in a desert not all the party was particularly good at survival. Also this NPC might alienate the local nomad tribe against us, or at least that was my interpretation. To him, that was not a possiblity. In the end, considering the stakes (many lives beside the party's were at stake) when this NPC was unwilling to deal and he insulted me, I finished him off. That way the tale wouldn't get out. As far as I was concerned I was looking out for the greater good, though not through a good act. I meet with him in 20 minutes. Thanks for your help. All the Best, Nani?
e-z0r 01-19-05, 07:24 PM	Don't change the way you play a character because a DM tells you he doesn't see eye to eye with what you're doing. Unless he means that you're disrupting the game and making it less fun for everyone else. Until such a time, roleplay your character. Sometimes things happen to us real people and to RPG characters that open up our eyes, and we change the way we act. Until the world tells your character to change, I see no reason why she should. Unless she feels like it, of course.
Thorak 01-19-05, 09:30 PM	Two things I found out as to why he's doing this. 1) My character has a high enough dex/con + a cloak of protection +3. Therefore, I feel more comfortable staying in the line of fire a little longer then the "typical" spellslinger. He interprets this as bad tactics on my part and is trying to "help" me. Bad tactics aren't the DM's problem. And I don't see how changing your background "helps" you in changing them, anyway. 2) Also, he has seen me take actions to protect the party which he didn't see as such. Specifically, we were dealing with a guide to the ruin we were supposed to visit. Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight. I tried smooth over the situation, make sure the guide was not alienated etc. This was especially important because we were in a desert not all the party was particularly good at survival. Also this NPC might alienate the local nomad tribe against us, or at least that was my interpretation. To him, that was not a possiblity. In the end, considering the stakes (many lives beside the party's were at stake) when this NPC was unwilling to deal and he insulted me, I finished him off. That way the tale wouldn't get out. As far as I was concerned I was looking out for the greater good, though not through a good act. Perfectly reasonable. If you weren't Good. But you know that, from your last sentence. That said, you're not forced to act your alignment in every instance. You'd just feel really awful about killing him, no matter how you justified it to yourself (in-character, of course). If you don't feel awful, then your character probably isn't really Good any more, in which case an alignment, not a background, change is what's required. Not that an alignment change is even a bad thing. Too many people think you've failed if your character changes alignment. That's bunk. People change, especially under the kinds of stress a D&D character sees. My current paladin has skated on pretty thin ice at several times, at one point raging against his God, who he at the time felt abandoned by for no good reason. If things had continued that way, he very well might have fallen from paladinhood and become at least Neutral Good, if not Chaotic, eventually. And probably less Good as well, since he keeps getting screwed in trying to do the right thing. Does this mean I'm playing him improperly? No, it means I'm deliberately playing someone who doesn't find the mantle of paladinhood an easy one to bear. Which I find fun and interesting.
MrkGrismer 01-20-05, 03:42 PM	Our party idiot insulted him and got in a fight. There is always one. :rolleyes: This is what happens when humans interfere with evolution. Let the defect die! :D