Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RavingDork 09-04-07, 02:57 PM	I got an E-mail from my DM with a list of "rules" for our upcoming Undermountain campaign. I find some of them to be extremely disturbing and I wanted other player's opinions on them. In other words, how would you feel if it was your game and you were reading the following? The below text also includes my responses (in italics) in a reply E-mail. Character Creation: Everyone will be creating his or her initial characters at the same time. This is to allow everyone to plan their characters out together to cover any group weaknesses and so on. No problem, save one: Everyone has already created his or her character. What’s more, they did it individually. Coincidentally, some of them don’t fill the party rolls very well—thereby reinforcing your reasoning behind the rule. Characters will be created using the standard point-buy system. Each will have 32 points to spend. No problem here. Most of the players prefer this method. Druids are banned. They get hosed anyway, so no biggy. Druids are never hosed. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game regardless of what terrain they face. Not having one in the group is more likely to decrease our chances of success. If you feel it doesn’t fit the theme of the campaign, say so, but don’t ban it. Only the following books are allowed: 3.5 Player’s Handbook, 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide (for prestige classes), the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Magic of Faerûn, Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, and the Book of Exalted Deeds. If any other books are used the DM will have to review them and okay them. Technically, everything requires the DM’s permission. Your list of allowed books doesn’t make much sense though. Maybe you’re mistaken? Are those books what the modules says you the DM need to run the module? Some races, classes, feats, etc. may not be allowed. Not because the DM does not like them, but because the nature of the Undermountain makes them unusable. Example: Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Like druids, Vow of Poverty might actually increase our odds of survival. Most every class (or race or feat) is designed for almost every adventuring situation (Wizards of the Coast doesn’t have any reason to stat out non-adventuring things for an adventure game). Feel free to discourage certain things as you see fit, but don’t ban them without putting in some serious though first. It’s quite simple: More restrictions means less fun. For the sake of playability, wizards will be allowed to utilize their 2 gained spells per level if they've been able to study arcane tomes within a reasonable period of time gaining the level. If that is not possible, the unused spells are saved until the wizard finds suitable tomes to study. To place spells from scrolls into their spellbooks however, the standard rules apply. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue. I will get you a list of important & relevant skills at a later date. You mean recommended skills for the Undermountain environment? If you really think we are incapable of picking the right skills ourselves, go ahead and send us the list. Mind you the characters have already been created, and some might not want to change. Any skills that cannot be used untrained they will have to be trained in. (After I give you the list.) You already can’t use trained skills untrained. That’s what that means. Or do you mean we will be forced to train in certain skills once you get the list ready? If it is the former, you need to learn the rules a little better. If it is the latter, than I’ll say it again: the more restrictions there are, the less fun everyone will have. Do it enough and you won’t have an Undermountain game at all. Tracking works for short distances. For long distances the spooky aspects of Undermountain severely inhibit tracking. If something actively interferes with tracking (like little invisible oomp-loompas sweeping up tracks everywhere) than fine. If this is your way of banning it because it would give us too much of an advantage, than it is not fine. Keep in mind that our party will probably try and track monster a lot since we are there to study them. William has already stated that his character would be picking up the Track feat before long. All alignments are allowed. But the nature of the game requires a good aligned outlook. Requires a good aligned outlook? Your statement is outright contradictory. Either disallow evil characters (my recommendation for ease of play) or don’t restrict alignments at all. There will be little to no natural light in most parts of the dungeon so bring plenty of light. That goes without saying. The Forgotten Realms feat "Spellcasting Prodigy" is only usable by dwarves and half-orc wizards. Why? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The feat is open to all races regardless of where they adventure. Also, why just those races? General rules and such: Experience will be given based off of Encounter Level instead of Challenge Level. This is the way the rules work normally. You always base XP off of encounter level instead of challenge rating if it is given. Experience will be based off of individual character level. This is to boost those who lag behind for whatever reasons. Again, this is they way the rules already work. Perhaps you should read the DMG some more. Only 2 ways to leave Undermountain. One is easy, the other is hard. I assume the easy way is death. Short of some outside influence keeping us from leaving (such as a collapse in the tunnel behind us or one of Halastar’s portals swooping us up and depositing us in an unfamiliar area) there’s absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t be able to leave whenever we want. Extradimensional travel and its ilk into Undermountain is okay. Leaving via such methods on the other hand… Again, teleporting in and out of Undermountain should work fine barring some external influence (like Halastar using powerful magic to prevent it for example). Food will be consumed at a rate of 1 day is sufficient for 1 week (Forgotten Realms tenday week). Water will still be a 1:1 ratio. Why not just 1 ration per day as the rules state? Keeping track of food and water is easy enough already. If anything, changing the rules will only complicate the matter further. If you are concerned about us running out of food and/or water, there are numerous ways to fix it (perhaps one of our contacts gave us more before we entered the dungeon, we can hunt for food via survival, maybe we come across an underground stream). Making a house rule seems arbitrary and highly unnecessary. Because you can't leave Undermountain, if a player cannot make a game either the DM will play the PC or another player will run the PC. That PC will only get ½ xp. If you are taking steps to keep PCs balanced with one another and to keep from from falling behind, why are you making rules that may cause them to fall behind? Still, such a rule may encourage players to work harder at showing up to the games. If a player's PC bites the big one, the player may make a new character with an ECL one level less either than that character or the lowest level PC in the group (whichever is higher). A common house rule among DMs with advantages and disadvantages to it. More than anything it keeps balance with those who want their characters restored to life (via raise dead which causes level loss) and those who want whole new characters. So long as a rogue keeps his Appraisal skill maxed out, except for a few special circumstances, no roles are necessary and appraisal will be automatic. So if my wizard maximizes his Appraise skill, it doesn’t guarantee automatic success? Sounds like you’re just too lazy to learn the appraisal rules (which actually goes very quickly in-game if you learn them). Still I doubt you will get much complaint from this (unnecessary) house rule. Please keep in mind though that anyone has the potential to max out Appraisal, not just rogues. If a caster investigates a magic item for an hour, he can identify it if his spellcraft skill is high enough. The player will automatically be assuming a "Take 20" on this. If this process is interrupted it must be started again. There may be modifiers to this check. Read up one the rules for identifying magical items in the Magic Item Compendium. It will make your life easier. If you really don’t want the game to focus around identifying magical items, you can just tell us what they are (I believe that is actually one of the options outlined in the Magic Item Compendium).
Eater_Of_Souls 09-04-07, 03:09 PM	So boohoo you can't beef up a combat monster of your liking and DM deciding the style of a campaign before hand ? I would include other official FR products though and would leave spellcasting prodigy as it is. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue. A wizard don't gain his spells out of thin air this also shouldn't be an issue, you only gain spell slots not spells if we go by the rules. Also judgin from your whiny attitude I wonder why your GM cares to have you in the group. :rolleyes:
Ecalsneerg 09-04-07, 03:16 PM	So boohoo you can't beef up a combat monster of your liking and DM deciding the style of a campaign before hand ? I would include other official FR products though and would leave spellcasting prodigy as it is. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue. A wizard don't gain his spells out of thin air this also shouldn't be an issue, you only gain spell slots not spells if we go by the rules. Also judgin from your whiny attitude I wonder why your GM cares to have you in the group. :rolleyes: How constructive. Tell me, if your DM said restricted things like a Wizard learning new spells (y'konw... kinda like the entire point of the class) would you be happy? Also: why ban Druid? Is it for flavour? If so, mock him with a Cleric with Animal and Plant domains. :P
kriskey 09-04-07, 03:31 PM	Again, teleporting in and out of Undermountain should work fine barring some external influence (like Halastar using powerful magic to prevent it for example). In fact, it doesn't -- per the module. There's an explanation for this in the adventure. Really, though, your DM should probably have revealed this in game. .. As far as the banning of certain things, I really don't see the big deal. It increases the challenge, surely, but having to overcome challenges with new or less optimized strategies can be fun (IMO) with the right mindset. However, if you don't think you'd enjoy that challenge, then I can understand wanting to pass.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-04-07, 03:49 PM	The only one I would have a real problem with is the Wizard one. The others are stupid, but wouldn't really come up a lot.
Nephlite 09-04-07, 04:28 PM	So boohoo you can't beef up a combat monster of your liking and DM deciding the style of a campaign before hand ? I would include other official FR products though and would leave spellcasting prodigy as it is. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue. A wizard don't gain his spells out of thin air this also shouldn't be an issue, you only gain spell slots not spells if we go by the rules. Also judgin from your whiny attitude I wonder why your GM cares to have you in the group. :rolleyes: Yes, his free spells do come out of thin air: he just thinks about them (upon gaining a level) gains insight and adds them for free. Anything else doesn't make sense. He doesn't need to learn them from outside sources: that is what scrolls are for. Granted, there is an optional rule I think in DMG, but that was for Sorcerors.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-04-07, 04:43 PM	I got an E-mail from my DM with a list of "rules" for our upcoming Undermountain campaign. I find some of them to be extremely disturbing and I wanted other player's opinions on them. In other words, how would you feel if it was your game and you were reading the following? The below text also includes my responses (in italics) in a reply E-mail. I'd think that maybe the DM is new to the job, but I'd give him a shot. If any of the rules were a particular nuisance to me, I'd talk to him about it. For example if my character was a wizard, I'd try to talk him into rethinking that rule. Overall, you're coming across as whiny. Maybe you're not, but that's how you sound. To me it sounds like your attitude is "I guess I'm going to have to teach this DM the error of his ways." If you end up talking to your DM about these house rules, I recommend that you watch what you say and how you say it so that you don't come off this way to him.
wonlee76 09-04-07, 04:46 PM	I'll limit my comments on what you find objectionable. Character Creation: Everyone will be creating his or her initial characters at the same time. This is to allow everyone to plan their characters out together to cover any group weaknesses and so on. No problem, save one: Everyone has already created his or her character. What’s more, they did it individually. Coincidentally, some of them don’t fill the party rolls very well—thereby reinforcing your reasoning behind the rule. Oh well... don't cry over spilt milk. The DM made the rule in the hopes of creating a well balanced party. If you folks went off on your own to create your own PCs without consulting with each other, then don't be *****ing about the amount of PC death in Undermountain. Druids are banned. They get hosed anyway, so no biggy. Druids are never hosed. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game regardless of what terrain they face. Not having one in the group is more likely to decrease our chances of success. If you feel it doesn’t fit the theme of the campaign, say so, but don’t ban it. Though I'm not a big fan of this rule, its not the first time I've seen the ban stick waved around the druid (though obviously for different reasons). Perhaps he's indicating that druidic abilities in general are not that great in Undermountain (Wildshape not that hot due to size of tunnels; certain druidic spells not helpful, etc. etc.). Only the following books are allowed: 3.5 Player’s Handbook, 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide (for prestige classes), the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Magic of Faerûn, Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, and the Book of Exalted Deeds. If any other books are used the DM will have to review them and okay them. Technically, everything requires the DM’s permission. Your list of allowed books doesn’t make much sense though. Maybe you’re mistaken? Are those books what the modules says you the DM need to run the module? Hmmm... Undermountain is in the FR campaign setting (near Waterdeep). His list makes sense from the perspective of FR books that the DM may own thus allowing him to simply allow whatever materials are within those books for his campaign. He even left a back door open for materials he may not be familiar with. Some races, classes, feats, etc. may not be allowed. Not because the DM does not like them, but because the nature of the Undermountain makes them unusable. Example: Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Like druids, Vow of Poverty might actually increase our odds of survival. Most every class (or race or feat) is designed for almost every adventuring situation (Wizards of the Coast doesn’t have any reason to stat out non-adventuring things for an adventure game). Feel free to discourage certain things as you see fit, but don’t ban them without putting in some serious though first. It’s quite simple: More restrictions means less fun. So now he's made an exception to the general rule of permissible materials. Its good that he told you this up front. He even gives his reasons for banning VoP (maybe a reason you don't buy or believe but its a reason). For the sake of playability, wizards will be allowed to utilize their 2 gained spells per level if they've been able to study arcane tomes within a reasonable period of time gaining the level. If that is not possible, the unused spells are saved until the wizard finds suitable tomes to study. To place spells from scrolls into their spellbooks however, the standard rules apply. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue. Based on the way he phrased this, I'm presuming that its his usual houserule to let a wizard learn new spells via "downtime" requiring reading of tomes or access to a arcane library. Essentially, he's relaxing that houserule. I may not like his original houserule but if you don't like it and were planning on playing a Wizard, don't play one. I will get you a list of important & relevant skills at a later date. You mean recommended skills for the Undermountain environment? If you really think we are incapable of picking the right skills ourselves, go ahead and send us the list. Mind you the characters have already been created, and some might not want to change. I agree this is a bit ambiguous but maybe he has newbies playing this game? Then such recommendations are nice to get from a DM so the newbie doesn't feel useless compared to the more experienced players at the table who knows what skills to pick. Any skills that cannot be used untrained they will have to be trained in. (After I give you the list.) You already can’t use trained skills untrained. That’s what that means. Or do you mean we will be forced to train in certain skills once you get the list ready? If it is the former, you need to learn the rules a little better. If it is the latter, than I’ll say it again: the more restrictions there are, the less fun everyone will have. Do it enough and you won’t have an Undermountain game at all. I agree with you whole heartedly on this one. Repeating the standard rules is pretty much stupid but if he has newbies in his game, then a reminder to the newbies may be nice. That may be why this was prompted (or basically he's used to players who ignore this rule). Tracking works for short distances. For long distances the spooky aspects of Undermountain severely inhibit tracking. If something actively interferes with tracking (like little invisible oomp-loompas sweeping up tracks everywhere) than fine. If this is your way of banning it because it would give us too much of an advantage, than it is not fine. Keep in mind that our party will probably try and track monster a lot since we are there to study them. William has already stated that his character would be picking up the Track feat before long. Or maybe he's hinting at a certain aspect of Undermountain as a "heads up" warning to the players? Sure, he poorly phrased it but there may be a reason for this (I don't own the Undermountain book so can't comment what rules or situations they have within regarding tracking). All alignments are allowed. But the nature of the game requires a good aligned outlook. Requires a good aligned outlook? Your statement is outright contradictory. Either disallow evil characters (my recommendation for ease of play) or don’t restrict alignments at all. This is poorly worded but I think he means if you're playing evil, don't be sociopathic evil but more of a pragmatic evil PC that can work with others. The Forgotten Realms feat "Spellcasting Prodigy" is only usable by dwarves and half-orc wizards. Why? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The feat is open to all races regardless of where they adventure. Also, why just those races? Based on his list of books, he's unaware of the 3.5 version of Spellcasting Prodigy (in Player's Guide to Faerun) which is substantially weaker than the one in the FRCS (I think that's where it is originally). Point that out to him and maybe he will lift the restriction. Otherwise... the only reason I could see this restriction being placed is the feat is being treated as a regional feat that in this particular region only a dwarf or half-orc in the area would be able to get. *shrug* General rules and such: Experience will be given based off of Encounter Level instead of Challenge Level. This is the way the rules work normally. You always base XP off of encounter level instead of challenge rating if it is given. Experience will be based off of individual character level. This is to boost those who lag behind for whatever reasons. Again, this is they way the rules already work. Perhaps you should read the DMG some more. Based on his book collection, he may be thinking of the old 3.0 rules for xp distribution. So basically he's using the 3.5 rule system instead. Only 2 ways to leave Undermountain. One is easy, the other is hard. I assume the easy way is death. Short of some outside influence keeping us from leaving (such as a collapse in the tunnel behind us or one of Halastar’s portals swooping us up and depositing us in an unfamiliar area) there’s absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t be able to leave whenever we want. Remembering 2nd edition Undermountain boxed set... those are pretty decent guesses as to why you can't get out of Undermountain easily. My other guess, you're reading too much into this. "Easy" may actually mean as easy as walking back the way you came where applicable. Extradimensional travel and its ilk into Undermountain is okay. Leaving via such methods on the other hand… Again, teleporting in and out of Undermountain should work fine barring some external influence (like Halastar using powerful magic to prevent it for example). Have you read the Undermountain book? Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. There "might" be a reason for this which IC you wouldn't know but your DM basically told you ahead of time its not possible. You should be thankful to him this information ahead of time. Food will be consumed at a rate of 1 day is sufficient for 1 week (Forgotten Realms tenday week). Water will still be a 1:1 ratio. Why not just 1 ration per day as the rules state? Keeping track of food and water is easy enough already. If anything, changing the rules will only complicate the matter further. If you are concerned about us running out of food and/or water, there are numerous ways to fix it (perhaps one of our contacts gave us more before we entered the dungeon, we can hunt for food via survival, maybe we come across an underground stream). Making a house rule seems arbitrary and highly unnecessary. At this point, you're sounding a bit too whiny about the rules. This is a rule that benefits the players yet you still find a reason to complain about it. A DM that creates a more "beneficial" houserule for the players and gets grief for it because its makes things "more complicated"??? Come on... now we're just complaining because you want to complain. Because you can't leave Undermountain, if a player cannot make a game either the DM will play the PC or another player will run the PC. That PC will only get ½ xp. If you are taking steps to keep PCs balanced with one another and to keep from from falling behind, why are you making rules that may cause them to fall behind? Still, such a rule may encourage players to work harder at showing up to the games. YOur DM is being nice here. My usual rule as DM is if you don't show up, your PC gets zip. No one plays your PC (to avoid being blamed for that PC's death) but he gets no benefits for being "safe". So long as a rogue keeps his Appraisal skill maxed out, except for a few special circumstances, no roles are necessary and appraisal will be automatic. So if my wizard maximizes his Appraise skill, it doesn’t guarantee automatic success? Sounds like you’re just too lazy to learn the appraisal rules (which actually goes very quickly in-game if you learn them). Still I doubt you will get much complaint from this (unnecessary) house rule. Please keep in mind though that anyone has the potential to max out Appraisal, not just rogues. So basically he's giving an auto success rule limited to a certain class and a few exceptions. He's trying to minimize dice rolls which isn't a bad thing. I presume he would use the normal appraise skill for non-rogues on the other hand (such as a wizard using cross-class skill points to keep appraise at maximum). My only criticism is this should be a benefit for a class that gets appraise as a class skill (bards and rogues are the only ones I believe). Griping about the fact that non-rogues don't get this benefit sounds a bit whiny. If a caster investigates a magic item for an hour, he can identify it if his spellcraft skill is high enough. The player will automatically be assuming a "Take 20" on this. If this process is interrupted it must be started again. There may be modifiers to this check. Read up one the rules for identifying magical items in the Magic Item Compendium. It will make your life easier. If you really don’t want the game to focus around identifying magical items, you can just tell us what they are (I believe that is actually one of the options outlined in the Magic Item Compendium). #1: You're presuming he owns the MIC. #2: You even say the MIC rule (which I don't believe exists) is optional. If he owned MIC and saw this optional rule, its safe to say that he didn't like it. #3: This houserule is basically a free chance to identify without wasting money on a 100 gp pearl and a 1st level spell slot. I would think you would actually be happy about this option. #4: If he stuck with the PHB rule, would you be happier forcing the Wizard/Sorceror PC to dedicate spell slots on Identify and carry around a bunch of 100 gp pearls?
DrMorganes 09-04-07, 04:46 PM	A wizard don't gain his spells out of thin air this also shouldn't be an issue, you only gain spell slots not spells if we go by the rules. Actually, this is not precisely correct. Wizards gain two spells of their choice, of any spell level they can cast, each time they gain a wizard level. There are no rules in either the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide placing restrictions on gaining these spells. In fact, the justification for gaining these spells automatically is that a wizard spends a portion of his non-played "downtime" each day experimenting with magic (just as fighters are practicing their combat forms, and all classes work on increasing their skill ranks). As with all things in a level-based progression, the wizard manages to learn two previously-unknown spells in the time it takes to gain an experience level. Mucking with how this works severely limits a wizard's effectiveness, especially in an environment like Undermountain. Additionally, the class already has a built-in mechanic for learning new spells over the course of his career though captured spell books and found scrolls.
danzig138 09-04-07, 05:20 PM	To answer your basic question, whatever. I wouldn't care about these No problem, save one: There is no "no problem save one" here. He's running the game. If you agree to play in the game, then you suck it up and reroll the damned characters and you do it as a group. Sorry, but your post does come off a touch whiny. I don't see a problem here with his rules.
Krusk 09-04-07, 06:06 PM	They dont sound too outrageous. Except for the fact that he is basically saying "you will be trapped inthe undermountian and do not find creative ways out, because they wont work. You will be forced to grind through until the end." Idont really mind that too much either, aside from the change to wizards, who will no longer be able to gain spells pretty much at all aside from scrolls, and it is going to sevearly effect your customization of loot. The houserules themselves dont sound too bad, but the nature of them is what would worry me in playing this game. It looks like the DM is going to be one of the types who likes to have direct access to what items/skills/feats you take and will punish you for going outside them.
StevenO 09-04-07, 07:41 PM	I wouldn't say there is too much to complain about here but I can find a few. Banning Druids. Maybe he doesn't want to deal with there power or there are legitimate reasons they shouldn't be allowed. I don't do druids so this isn't a problem for me. Books allowed followed by spot bannings: Extra books are always subject to DM approval. I'd ban BoED because I don't have it and don't know how well a party of exhalteds would perform, additionally that gets rid of the VoP. I agree that mentioning what isn't helpful would be nice but then there is no need to disallow them unless the DM is worried about "gimp" characters. The Wizard should always get his two free spells at level up. If you are going to make him wait one should also enforce training of some kind on everyone else which just makes leveling a pain. Incidently, a wizard who is only gaining his level up spells isn't going to know that many more spells than a sorcerer of the same level which already hurt the wizard. I imagine "Spellcasting Prodigy" is restricted to dwarf and half-orc wizards is to encourage a specific character type. I think it would make more sense if it were only usable by sorcerers of those races and half-orc wizards to make up for stat penalties. If it is usable by any dwarf but only h-o wizards then I'd definitely have a problem with it. XP Awards: XP is officially based on CR. Encounter Level is usually based on CR (don't know what is meant by Challenge Level) and in homogenous groups awarding XP based on one CR = EL isn't too far off but things really break down if the encounter consists of mixed CRs. Penalties for Missed Games: If the character is there they should get full xp even if their player isn't. Missing a game should be a penalty to the player who didn't get to enjoy the fun so there is little need to compound it by hurting their character. If the DM awards XP for good roleplaying on top of standard XP then the missing PC's character isn't entitled to that however. Identifing items: Automatic appraisal for a maxed out skill shouldn't be restricted to one class. Given how easy it is to be close with just a few ranks is this even worth bothering with? Even if some of these rules are pretty standard putting them down isn't a bad thing. If anything they should remind the player what to expect and help keep the game moving smoothly.
Varia 09-04-07, 07:43 PM	Characters- characters should be created together, for the reasons he stated. Its a social and bonding thing. Wizard spells- the wizards 2 free spells are part of the levelling up process. I know its popular to ignore it, so much so that most people, including apparently yourself, have forgotten the rule even exists, but LEVELLING UP REQUIRES TRAINING TIME. You are NOT entitled to your free spells (nor a warrior to his feats) until this training is completed. I'd say this is his version of the training requirement. Skill list/skills untrained- sure, its basic or normal stuff, but your petulant, passive-aggressive reaction, well, isnt. You really seem to be looking for a fight, and arent sounding like you'll be much fun to play with in those responses. Tracking- The classical nature of undermountain does suggest difficulty in all forms of navigation, including tracking. On a more practical note, thats one of the side effects of gelatinous cubes, which are de rigeur in dungeons, after all. Once a 10' blob of jello has slurped its way along a corridor tracks are pretty much toast. No oompa-loompas required. Good aligned outlook- you can be evil, but you are expected, for either party unity or plot threads, to keep the evil part mostly on hold for the duration of the dungeon. You can go back to being your normal repugnant self after you get out. Light- its just a reminder. People forget the basics sometimes. No need to get snippy. Prodigy- I dont know the feat so I cant comment. But I note that once again you attacked the ruling first, and only afterwards did you ask if there was a reason for the ruling. Not exactly a positive mindset there... Experience- yes, those are the way it "should" work, but those rules are often forgotten, ignored, or mutilated, often to the point that people forget how theyre supposed to be. Just like you forgot about training time. He's just explaining that he knows the rules and plans on using them. But once again, you get unnecessarily snarky and rude, and basically call him incompetent. Leaving Undermountian- I dont know the specifics of Undermountain in the incarnation he's planning to use, but I do know that Undermountain has ALWAYS been difficult to get out of. All the versions I've seen have the no-teleport rule, forinstance. The one I'm most familiar with (from a MUD called Toril/Sojourn) allowed no form of transport in or out besides actual physical walking/flying. It was the most feared zone in that game for a very long time because of the combination of that and the teleport traps making it "unmappable". A friend of mine and myself did actually map it because we were just that good (and luckily for me, I was the perfect class for it) but most people just got so traumatised by it at a young age that even when they were uber they wouldnt go back. This DM is only following tradition, and most likely the specific scenario setting as listed in the module. Food- ok, thats a bit wierd. Either its a module side-effect, or its some kind of not-sweating-the-unimportant-stuff thing for him. If its the latter, then it suggests that water will be your big issue in the module, but thats just speculation. Player absent- some DMs just have the missing PCs just go *poof* till the next time the player shows up. Others dont feel thats realistic, either in general, or for a given setting, and so keep the PC with the group. Some say the PC is with the group, but basically inert. He's just telling you which method he plans to use. Its just a realism thing. Appraisal- he's planning on making life easier for everyone by just telling you what things are worth as long as the party makes a good-faith effort to be worthy of it. And yet you chose to **** on his generosity and call him stupid. Identifying items- Again, he's being generous, requiring a simple hour of study to identify items, something the wizard will get several of every night. And again, you call him incompetent, and suggest he use some rule from a book THATS NOT PART OF THE CAMPAIGN, which is almost certainly less advantageous to you. He's certainly removing the dice roll that would at least 5% of the time give you incorrect information. Really, you sound aggressively and needlessly confrontational, with the diplomatic skills of bread mold. I have serious doubts about how much fun you would be to play with if you keep going with this mindset. Trust the DM for once. If you are wondering why a house rule exists, just ask him, rather than trying to club him with the DMG or PHB or insinuating he's stupid/lazy/incompetent, which seems to be your usual response. You catch more flies with honey, and all that...
Grumman 09-04-07, 07:54 PM	Wizard spells- the wizards 2 free spells are part of the levelling up process. I know its popular to ignore it, so much so that most people, including apparently yourself, have forgotten the rule even exists, but LEVELLING UP REQUIRES TRAINING TIME. You are NOT entitled to your free spells (nor a warrior to his feats) until this training is completed. I'd say this is his version of the training requirement. But by applying this limitation only to wizards, he is probably screwing over just one player. Not to mention that a wizard is far more dependant on his spells than a fighter is on his feats - a featless fighter at least still has full B.A.B. and D10 hp.
Yaeri 09-04-07, 08:07 PM	There's nothing in there that would make me turn away from his game. I would try to talk him out of the wizard thing though, for obvious balance reasons. Since you haven't been holding back in your replies to your DM, I think it's okay for me to say, that if your replies colour your overall attitude, I wouldn't be happy having you in a game. It screams hostility at me.
Nephlite 09-04-07, 08:10 PM	But by applying this limitation only to wizards, he is probably screwing over just one player. Not to mention that a wizard is far more dependant on his spells than a fighter is on his feats - a featless fighter at least still has full B.A.B. and D10 hp. Agreed, why does the Wizard have the training requirement, but he isn't restricting the Fighter. Or is he restricting them all, but not saying. But than why mention the Wisard only?!
Kouk 09-04-07, 08:15 PM	Seems like RavingDork (the OP) just doesn't like the DM personally. Every single thing he has to nitpick and complain about, even when it is the normal rules. You seem very confrontational with all those "Read the book more" sorts of comments, and basically the whole tone of it is "You are an idiot for suggesting these things, I do not like them, I am smarter than you." The Wizard rule is the only one that bugs me, because by default, yes, a Wizard automagically knows 2 more spells just for leveling up. I believe it was made precisely because it is not always possible to research spells or scribe new ones. Character Creation: Did he tell you to go ahead and make characters by yourselves? No? So why did you all do that? Druids are banned: I don't like banning classes and such, but some people feel the Druid is overpowered or whatever. Does this impact you directly? Did you or someone else you know of plan on playing a Druid, and now his dreams are crushed? Why should not having a Druid lower your chances of success, unless you planned on having several Druids who dominate everything with their more "questionable" abilities. The DM limits the races available: So? Did you want to play a strange race? Generally playing exotic races with high LA is a detriment. Maybe in his campaign world, certain races just don't exist, or are not suitable to be played? Choices are nice, but odds are there aren't enough players that people won't be able to find a race out of the 20 or so in the Forgotten Realms books. Again, does this immediately affect you? What race did you want to play? Did he specifically ban it? The DM limits the books: He states which books he allows. You argue for things like VoP from Book of Exalted Deeds, which is not on the list of allowed things. Is your character planning on taking this feat? If not, why do you care enough to complain that not allowing it "might" negatively impact the party? You also suggest rules from the Magic Item Compendium, also not on the list of books being used. Also, he informs you of which books are allowed, and you complain that it is normal for books to not all be allowed? Would you prefer he disallow certain books, but not tell anyone about which ones? Why are you questioning the reasoning for the particular books? Modules rarely say "You must use these books to play:", they invariably just require the Core 3 and then mention what supplements may be helpful (if they mention anything at all). The books allowed are based on the preference of the DM, the books he has access to and understands, and... the preference of the DM again. He has left open the possibility of allowing other books, you should have no problems. The DM will recommend skills that will directly help in the adventure: Again, so what? He is trying to help people choose the most effective skills so that you can complete the adventure more smoothly. Perhaps it is a bit too much information but if this is just a one-shot campaign (which I suspect it is) then it can be helpful to build your characters for the specific purpose of that adventure. He is not disallowing certain skills, he is suggesting which might see the most use. You are attacking him again as if he is calling you stupid, when he is doing nothing at all directly related to you. Are you the only one who is getting this email? DM says something about untrained and trained skills: You are attacking him again, and you don't know why. You accuse him of not knowing the rules, and also manage to threaten to not attend his game (and intimate that other players will also not attend) just because of these few rules you have nitpicks with. Not everyone can handle a bazillion options allowed in their campaigns, don't hold everyone up to that standard. He may change something else about certain skills, don't speculate and assume the worst already. DM says Tracking doesn't work long-distance: Again, he is being helpful to you all and recommending that Track would not be the optimal use of a feat slot. He is also keeping your expectations down so you are not surprised when you suddenly can't track people. I have not read the newest Undermountain book, but if it is anything like the older versions of Undermountain, then Tracking will definitely not work very well at all. Your friend thought of taking the Tracking feat. Is he taking this because of a vested roleplaying interest, and he has been dying to take that feat since he started playing the game 4 years ago? I think he could survive taking a different feat. Even if he sticks with Track, it will still have some utility. Here is some good advice: Don't get upset in someone else's place. Let them handle their own reactions. DM says you should have "good aligned outlook": I suspect this is a poorly expressed way of saying "Work together damnit, I don't want everyone backstabbing each other when you are 200 feet below-ground." But, you attack him again rather than asking for clarification. DM says there will be little natural lighting: He is trying to head off problems in advance, like people forgetting to bring Torches. You again manage to intimate he is a fool by even mentioning such a thing. DM says there are limits on Spellcasting Prodigy: I agree it doesn't make much sense without more reasoning. Probably he feels it is overpowered and wants to boost the draw of a Dwarf or Half Orc spellcaster for some misguided reason. Your choice of language of "That doesn't make sense at all" rather than the more neutral-sounding "I don't understand your reasoning" is also confrontational. DM mentions things about calculating XP: These are the normal rules. I am also not sure why he is mentioning them unless of course in previous campaigns he has been involved with the XP system was handled differently. Do you know everyone he is sending this email to, well enough that you can speak for their experiences shared with this person? But, you imply he does not know the rules of the game just because he has stated them. DM talks about moving around in the dungeon: Why are you questioning these statements? Do you know something about the adventure he doesn't know? If so, you must have already read the book, so why play in that adventure? If, on the other hand, the DM knows more about that particular adventure than you do, wouldn't he know whether or not you can come and go as you please? You seem to be making an ultimatum of, "I want to go wherever I want, whenever I want. Don't tell me what I can and can't do!". This is a recurring undertone running throughout all your responses. DM makes some food rule: This is practically a non-issue so I don't know why you have to argue about it as well. Personally I would make ways for food to be found down there, or else ignore that you have to eat at all. DM mentions character death rules: Why are you summarizing the arguments for a system he is already adopting? DM mentions rules for handling absent players: What's the problem? He is trying to keep story continuity, and preserve the entire party even if someone doesn't come, but wants to give an incentive to actually attend. DM alters Appraise skill: Also a minor issue, it seems designed to speed gameplay without making identifying items totally free to everyone. This may also be his way of trying to get someone to play a Rogue specifically. I don't agree with it, but whatever. In closing, I don't think that you will get along well with this person as the DM, because you seem to have some kind of deep-seated personal issues with him as a person, or else issues with anyone other than yourself as the DM (or in some other position of power).
dknight100 09-04-07, 08:59 PM	OP, can you explain how any of these houserules will actually butcher the fun of Undermountain? It seems that you simply smoulder with generic rage.
RavingDork 09-04-07, 09:54 PM	OP, can you explain how any of these house rules will actually butcher the fun of Undermountain? It seems that you simply smolder with generic rage. It's probably worth noting that... ...I am not a fan of houserules in general and always begin with a negative attitude where such things are concerned. ...The DM in question is my best friend in the world and we get along great in most situations. ...The DM is an experienced roleplayer and has hosted at least one other campaign before this one as a DM. ...With the exception of the DM's wife, we are all experienced roleplayers with 5-10 years of XP. ...Our DM was never very good at explaining things well. ...Most of the rules have no immediate effect (we have no rogue, no druid, no ranks in Appraise, nobody with the Spellcasting Prodigy feat, etc.) - If anything, this concerns the other players since it would appear the DM is simply pulling needless house rules out of his butt. I called the other players in the party (except the DM's wife) and we had a 2-hour conference where we discussed our like/dislike for these new rules. With a few exceptions, most of the players just want better explanations for the rules changes. Some of the things that NEED to be changed (according to the other players) is the restriction on wizards and Druids. Although not hostile, most of the player's outlook towards the rules changes was generally a negative one. I am expecting my DM to call later tonight. When he does, I am going to conference the other players and we are all going to talk it out as civilly as possible. Still, should the insist on DM putting his foot down on certain issues, the players are ready to walk (as a last resort).
Hsien 09-05-07, 09:49 AM	First step is ineffective...complaining on these forums. Even if you get sympathy, it does nothing to help your cause. Tell a DM that the forum people say he's wrong...see how far that goes. In this case I must concur with the general opinion that this seems more like a whine post over not being able to make a particular character then an actual concern over houserules. Second step is correct....talk to the players and DM. This should always be the first step in resolving any issue. Hope it works out ok. "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." ~William James
Alyri 09-05-07, 11:49 AM	pg 178 phb Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. I agree with the Dm on this one. According to the RAW no research, no automatic spells. Yet the wizard can still get spells through scrolls, other wizards, other spellbooks.
RavingDork 09-05-07, 12:23 PM	First step is ineffective...complaining on these forums. Even if you get sympathy, it does nothing to help your cause. Tell a DM that the forum people say he's wrong...see how far that goes. In this case I must concur with the general opinion that this seems more like a whine post over not being able to make a particular character then an actual concern over houserules. Second step is correct....talk to the players and DM. This should always be the first step in resolving any issue. Hope it works out ok. "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." ~William James Thanks. Though I didn't post this thread to "whine" like so many believe, I posted here to gain additional perspective on the matter--to see if my reaction was wrong. Now, after having read, all of your replies, I see that although not neccesarily wrong, I was certainly coming on much too strongly. Sadly, our DM never called. We still plan on talking it over with him as a group when we do hear from him. I think, that with your advice, I will be able to handle the situation much better than I would have without it.
Nephlite 09-05-07, 01:18 PM	pg 178 phb Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. I agree with the Dm on this one. According to the RAW no research, no automatic spells. Yet the wizard can still get spells through scrolls, other wizards, other spellbooks. Yes, but Fighters shouldn't gain bonus feats unless they have the same downtime. Really, it is just undermining the Wizard for no reason. Even the Clerics gets his for free.
Alyri 09-05-07, 01:37 PM	Yes, but Fighters shouldn't gain bonus feats unless they have the same downtime. Really, it is just undermining the Wizard for no reason. Even the Clerics gets his for free. If there was a cookie or potion that allowed the fighter to digest the feat I would agree with you. But by RAW, you no research you no get free spells
Eater_Of_Souls 09-05-07, 01:50 PM	If there was a cookie or potion that allowed the fighter to digest the feat I would agree with you. But by RAW, you no research you no get free spells Besides a fighter bonus feats (and normal feats as well) are considered as something you have figured on your own while adventuring, hence you learn them immediatly. A cleric gains spells from a deity and learns no new spells pre se they allready know all the priest spells in every single book that your group might have.
Salla 09-05-07, 02:47 PM	If there was a cookie or potion that allowed the fighter to digest the feat I would agree with you. But by RAW, you no research you no get free spells Wrong. The SRD: A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own. That's it. No reference to research. Banning the druid because 'they'll get hosed' is questionable, though banning it because it's remarkably powerful isn't. He may have been influenced by the World's Largest Dungeon, if he's played it, as that book also says druids get hosed (it's just as wrong, but it's there). Most of the rest of the rules just smells like n00b to me.
Alyri 09-05-07, 02:56 PM	Wrong. The SRD: A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own. Wrong!!!@! Finish reading the whole section. Notice how it says "(see Adding Spells to a Wizards Spellbook, page 178)" Now go read page 178. Notice how it says you need to research spells to gain the 2 free spells. I didn't make it up you know
Salla 09-05-07, 03:00 PM	Wrong!!!@! Finish reading the whole section. Notice how it says "(see Adding Spells to a Wizards Spellbook, page 178)" Now go read page 178. Notice how it says you need to research spells to gain the 2 free spells. I didn't make it up you know Actually, it doesn't say 'you must', it says 'Wizards do', which means it's done off camera, during downtime, with resources the wizard has on him. "Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. " These are not if/then arguments, they're statements. The wizard gets the two spells, no matter what.
Alyri 09-05-07, 03:10 PM	Actually, it doesn't say 'you must', it says 'Wizards do', which means it's done off camera, during downtime, with resources the wizard has on him. "Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. " These are not if/then arguments, they're statements. The wizard gets the two spells, no matter what. Sure these are if/then. I read the rule not what someone thinks is implied
Tytalus 09-05-07, 03:35 PM	Seems like RavingDork (the OP) just doesn't like the DM personally. Every single thing he has to nitpick and complain about, even when it is the normal rules. You seem very confrontational with all those "Read the book more" sorts of comments, and basically the whole tone of it is "You are an idiot for suggesting these things, I do not like them, I am smarter than you." That pretty much sums it up. I'd like to add that if you feel like belittling the DM for the work/though he put into the rules, it might be better to just DM yourself instead. Note that many of his "houserules" are actually mere warnings (bring light, leaving might be difficult, etc.) and things that make your life easier (e.g., identifying without a pearl/spell). The only contentious issues (limitations on wizards and druids, which don't even affect your party at all) could be discussed calmly. It seems, however, that you are not only overreacting, but also mobilizing the other players against the DM (who's supposed to be a good friend of yours - go figure). Overall, I can only agree with Dag: Do the entire gaming group and your so-called best friend a favor and leave the group so they can enjoy Undermountain.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-05-07, 05:47 PM	> I know its popular to ignore it, so much so that most people, including > apparently yourself, have forgotten the rule even exists, but LEVELLING UP > REQUIRES TRAINING TIME. Training to gain a level is an optional rule, not a standard one. If you want to add it as an optional rule, that's fine - but it's unfair to apply it to just one class and not others.
Phrennzy 09-05-07, 06:43 PM	If I sent out an email listing my house rules, and got back a response like yours, I'd be on the phone with you in a heartbeat wondering why you were being such a jerk. There are maybe half a dozen houserules there that are bad calls. The rest - well, you just sound like a jerk picking them apart. Was there any part of his email you liked?
RavingDork 09-05-07, 07:07 PM	Finally, some constructive criticism (not that there weren't a few good points throughout the thread already). I'll take each point at a time. Rolling chars together: You don't seem to have a problem with this, and it makes sense to coordinate with your party members. No problem whatsoever. Although it would be a pain to have to remake all of our characters in front of the DM, I wouldn't have a problem with it. We all used 32 point buy and we are all honest guys so I know nobody cheated at anything. It would be a simple matter to show the DM how we made our characters, and then to get his permission to use some of the resources outside his book list. Note though that some of the other players in the party don't want to make new characters and are ready to walk away if they can't play their characters (especially since the DM has approved all of the characters already on an individual basis some feel he is just being a controlling jerk at this point). Druids are banned: Were any of you planning on playing a druid/had anyone made a druid? No one has made a druid yet, although one player is actively attempting to talk another player into playing a druid (to better fill party roles). Also, every player in the group takes issue with this as they want the option of playing a druid should their character die (which our DM continually reassures us, is most likely). Only certain books: Lots of DMs do this. They don't want the game session bogged down by cross-referencing a dozen different books, and that way they can also check up on anything the players do, rather than having to take the player's word for it. Although the DM's limited list would restrict every single character in the group (since we all have used resources outside that list), I can understand why he might do that. The problem is, he doesn't say why he did do that. In fact, that is the problem with most of his rulings. Why did he choose those particular books, as hodge podge as they are? I know he owns more than those, so its not a matter of just limiting it to books he is familiar with. It is my believe he misread the module and believes the module says the players should only use those books for sake of playability. Does anybody here know if the module says anything about those books? Perhaps it is the list of books the DM needs to run the module? VoP and other bans: Again, did anyone use VoP in their chars? Like the druid, no one has taken that feat, or any other exalted material. We almost had one player take a vile feat, but he changed his mind. The players are primarily concerned with two things: having their options restricted and the DMs reasoning. What if a player wants to take the feat later? Why does the DM feel the feat to be inappropriate? These are things we would all like answers to. Two wizard spells/level: This is where I take issue with the DM. Wizards gain experience with spells as they cast them and over time learn to cast new, more powerful spells. Denying a wizard his spells is like denying the fighter his sword. Do the arcane tomes in question have to be of spells the wizard is learning? Everyone in our group takes issue with this. As written, unless I find some ancient tome in Undermountain AND THEN find a time and place to study it, I get no spells. Since when did wizard need ancient tomes outside their own spellbook to gain their core spells at level up? Everyone hates this rule because it is a terrible nerf which will surely ruin my wizarding experience (yes, I am playing the party wizard), but will also partially cripple the rest of the party since a wizard with no spells will be nothing but a drag. Skill list: The DM is trying to help you out here. There should be no problem with that. There isn't any for the most part. Untrained skills: He's just trying to remind people of the rules. This might become an issue if you need that particular skill in Undermountain and nobody has it, which is maybe why he's giving you a list of useful skills. I see your point, still I don't see appraise as being an essential skill we would need to survive Undermountain. Tracking: I'm not too familiar with Undermountain, but there might be a reason behind this ruling. Talk with the DM and ask if he can elaborate without giving too much away. That's what we intend to do. Depending on his reason behind the rule, there likely won't be a problem here. One player (the one who planned on being an excellent tracker) says he doesn't like th rule no matter the DM's reason behind it. Alignments: I think he's trying to say that while evil is allowed, the things you guys will be doing is mainly what good aligned people would do, and it would be highly unusual to see an evil person doing those things. I hope this is the case. It's a well known fact our DM is not a good communicator, so this is likely what he was meaning to say. Light: Again, he's trying to help. Some groups (mine among them) forget to bring a torch all the time, and the wizard forgot to prepare a light spell, so we waste some time bumping into things. We are all aware he is trying to help (in this instance), but some of us find it insulting that he feels he should remind us to bring light into a dungeon. Like I said before, we are all experienced roleplayers. Spellcasting Prodigy: I think he's trying to offset the penalties to casting ability scores these races take in order to make them more attractive to prospective casters. That, or he doesn't want mental ability scores at 20 at first level. At first I thought it was to offset the crappy spellcasting ability of those classes, but if that was the case he would of said only half-orc/dwarven SORCERERS would be able to take it. As written his rule only serves to help the half-orc (since they take an Intelligence penalty) and makes the dwarf better spellcaster than most other races (more spell slots AND more hit points?). This rule is a minor concern, but we all wonder as to his reasoning behind having made it. Experience rules: Again, just friendly reminders so that no one gets disgruntled during play. No problem here. I don't mind this rule particularly, I've even used it myself as a DM. I didn't think the other players would take much of an issue with it, but they did as it turns out. Leaving Undermountain: I'm not familiar with it, but in NWN:HoTU, you can't teleport out of Undermountain. (Of course, you can't do that anyway...no teleport spells.) He probably has a good reason for this ruling. Also, if you could waltz in and out of the place, why don't monsters get out that easily? I've read several player's adventure stories where the PCs were able to teleport in and out of Undermountain without any problems. If the module prohibits teleportation that's fine. We are just worried it is a DM nerf instead of a module rule. Food/water: Again, he's helping you out by not making you spend tons of cash on rations and ticking one off every day, it's only once a week that you have to eat some. The players and I actually don't like this rule as it takes away some of the struggle that is iconic to Undermountain. It makes it less of a challenge, and because of that, it feels less liek Undemrountain should. In the end, we prefer the normal food/water rules. We are all creative enough that we think we can pull it off. Missing PCs: Well, when a PC goes missing, it's more work for the DM to run that character, but your DM doesn't seem like the type to let players fall behind. It's also harder on the players since the DM might not be using the character to his fullest extent. The rule is fine, it just seems to contradict some of the other things he is trying to do (like keeping the party members balanced with one another, trying to keep people from falling behind, etc.) Death rules: Seen it done before. I like to leave new chars at the current party level to encourage the players to try new classes, but whatever floats your DM's boat. I've seen it done before. See my above response. Appraise/Magic items: Once again, he's trying to make things easier on you guys. Try not to get mad at him for it. We don't want it easier. We want Undermountain in its full terrifying glory. This rule is a minor issue since we didn't intend to make magical item identification or appraisal a focus of the game. We are all thinking of it as a survival game. I hope that helps to create a bit more understanding. If I sent out an email listing my house rules, and got back a response like yours, I'd be on the phone with you in a heartbeat wondering why you were being such a jerk. There are maybe half a dozen houserules there that are bad calls. The rest - well, you just sound like a jerk picking them apart. Was there any part of his email you liked? Like I said, I don't like house rules in general (all my gaming buddies know this) so to answer your question, I didn't particularly care for an E-mail with nothing but house rules.
deathbane 09-05-07, 07:10 PM	pg 178 phb Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. I agree with the Dm on this one. According to the RAW no research, no automatic spells. Yet the wizard can still get spells through scrolls, other wizards, other spellbooks. pg 57...Spellbooks:....At each new wizard, she gains two new spellls of any spell level or levels she that she can cast(based on her new wizard level) .....For example, when a wizard attains the level, she can cast 3rd-level spells. At this point, she can add two new 3rd level spells to her spellbook ot one 2nd-level spell and one 3rd-level spell. The wizards performing research is fluff. If it was a rule then they would say how much time would be needed to dedicate to that research.
WizO_Shadow 09-05-07, 07:19 PM	Ok, while I'm cleaning up, play nice. I expect you to continue to play nice afterwards. Wizo_Shadow RPG Boards Team
Jexil 09-05-07, 07:32 PM	I'm glad our DM didn't ban the druid from his Undermountain campaign, I'm playing a druid with the rootwalker substitution levels and it works nicely in that scenario. As for the rule with wizards gaining no new spells without access to research, that could be a big problem in this particular campaign. If you can't get the DM to change his mind, I suggest not playing a wizard. As for the restriction against teleportation, that is indeed part of the adventure as written, not a DM nerf. Ditto the difficulties in regards to coming and going as you please. You may not always be able to do that whenever you want. That's just how the adventure is.
deathbane 09-05-07, 07:52 PM	Ok, while I'm cleaning up, play nice. I expect you to continue to play nice afterwards. Wizo_Shadow RPG Boards Team What? :confused:
V8122 09-05-07, 08:10 PM	The answer is simple- If you don't like it don't play it. Seriously, just speak to your DM about the various things you dislike.
RavingDork 09-05-07, 09:58 PM	The answer is simple- If you don't like it don't play it. Seriously, just speak to your DM about the various things you dislike. I've never said I was going to do anything different.
GaffeR 09-05-07, 10:32 PM	Sounds like you're being a bit nitpicky. As I'm currently running CotSQ, I can understand why he might restrict you guys to the short list of books. The modules as written generally use only core + campaign stuff. He may wanna restrict you to the same in order to preserve balance. It's MUCH easier to balance PCs to a module (especially as a new DM) than it is to adjust the module to the PCs.
Alyri 09-06-07, 11:28 AM	pg 57...Spellbooks:....At each new wizard, she gains two new spellls of any spell level or levels she that she can cast(based on her new wizard level) .....For example, when a wizard attains the level, she can cast 3rd-level spells. At this point, she can add two new 3rd level spells to her spellbook ot one 2nd-level spell and one 3rd-level spell. The wizards performing research is fluff. If it was a rule then they would say how much time would be needed to dedicate to that research. Again. finish reading the whole section and you find this gem (see Adding Spells to a Wizards Spellbook, page 178). Now onto page 178-179; Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. certain refers to the current level of spells the wizard is able to cast. It is not a 'fluff' statement. Just as a ranger losing his nifty abilities when in heavy armor is not 'fluff'. Researching is furthering the differences between a wizard and sorcerer
Myers 09-06-07, 01:27 PM	In regards to the studying for spells thing. To be quite honest I don't see why you really should worry about that one, assuming your DM is experienced and competent as you say he is, he will be sure you get a chance to get your spells. Perhaps he has his own spells he wants you to get, perhaps he is intending for scrolls to be quite common in the loot. Now if he's a DM that always runs the modules 100% by the book and never changes anything to suit what he has, OK then you might want to sweat a bit, and from what I've read of the new version of undermountain the level of railroading the book actually asks the DMs to do, I would be afraid to even play that module with a DM that can't improvise. Asside from that everything else I see in your post is perfectly legitimate house rules that the only sane way one could fairly complain would be if they were sprung out of the blue mid campaign. For tracking, I would imagine tracking in undermountain would be a huge pain, Solid rock floors, dozens of different monsters that frequent through, random magic, illusions and portal's seemingly random, not the easiest place to find footprints. And on the teleport thing, Halastar has made teleportation and about 90% of divination totally unusable in undermountain.
Hsien 09-06-07, 03:00 PM	Here is my understanding of Teleportation in Undermountain, don't have book but this is what the running DM told us from the book. Teleport: Within Line of Sight = No problem Teleport: Not within line of sight = Random location You could try something be as simple as teleporting to a room you just left a minute ago, and end up anywhere in the Undermountain. Might be good, might be bad...but in dire circumstances where you're dead if you don't Teleport away...why not.
Grumman 09-06-07, 07:31 PM	To be quite honest I don't see why you really should worry about that one, assuming your DM is experienced and competent as you say he is, he will be sure you get a chance to get your spells. It might just be me, but "makes one player's primary class ability completely dependant on DM fiat" and "experienced and competent" don't really mesh. Perhaps he has his own spells he wants you to get, perhaps he is intending for scrolls to be quite common in the loot. Yay! And then the wizard, and the wizard alone, gets to pay hundreds of GP just so that he can gain his class ability!
Nephlite 09-06-07, 08:26 PM	In regards to the studying for spells thing. To be quite honest I don't see why you really should worry about that one, assuming your DM is experienced and competent as you say he is, he will be sure you get a chance to get your spells. Perhaps he has his own spells he wants you to get, perhaps he is intending for scrolls to be quite common in the loot. That is bad. Unlewss he finds magic ink worth X gp value as well: he can't even scribe the scrolls into his spellbook that aren't from level. Yes, the magic "ink" isn't flavor: now how will the poor wizard even get that ink in the mountains? It doesn't cost any ink for the fre spells, but 100 gp/spell level for scrolls do. So free scrolls mean little if they cost money to use.
White_Whale 09-07-07, 07:00 AM	Like I said, I don't like house rules in general (all my gaming buddies know this) so to answer your question, I didn't particularly care for an E-mail with nothing but house rules. I agree with what Phrennzy said. It seems most of his house rules wouldn't affect you or anybody else in your party, yet you go about complaining. Just suck it up, and never look back. If there are some rules that really bother you, make a polite reply arguing for your views. Only fight the battles that are worth fighting.
Roog 09-07-07, 08:39 AM	Sounds like the DM got one important thing right... Character Creation: Everyone will be creating his or her initial characters at the same time. This is to allow everyone to plan their characters out together to cover any group weaknesses and so on. That session of character creation gives a great opportunity for you (and the other players) to bring up your problems with the DM's house rules, and talk them out face-to-face with the entire group involved.
Merestil Haye 09-07-07, 09:21 AM	Another perspective.I got an E-mail from my DM with a list of "rules" for our upcoming Undermountain campaign. If the DM has set them they are rules. Stop undermining them by putting them in quotes. You can't ignore them just because you don't like them. That being said, some are good and some are not. If I cut out a houserule, then we agree on it. Character Creation: Everyone will be creating his or her initial characters at the same time. This is to allow everyone to plan their characters out together to cover any group weaknesses and so on. No problem, save one: Everyone has already created his or her character. What’s more, they did it individually. Coincidentally, some of them don’t fill the party rolls very well—thereby reinforcing your reasoning behind the rule.This is not any form of game rule, it's group policy. If the DM wants to vary the policy for some reason, then let him. You can do thinking for the concept and bring it to the table to set it out on paper. Druids are banned. They get hosed anyway, so no biggy. Druids are never hosed. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game regardless of what terrain they face. Not having one in the group is more likely to decrease our chances of success. If you feel it doesn’t fit the theme of the campaign, say so, but don’t ban it.This is the one environment in which a Druid is at a distinct disadvantage. Nothing natural here. Oh, and no spell focus supplies either. What are you going to do, take a trip out every three days just to restock your rmistletoe (or other spell focus)? Only the following books are allowed: 3.5 Player’s Handbook, 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide (for prestige classes), the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Magic of Faerûn, Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, and the Book of Exalted Deeds. If any other books are used the DM will have to review them and okay them. Technically, everything requires the DM’s permission. Your list of allowed books doesn’t make much sense though. Maybe you’re mistaken? Are those books what the modules says you the DM need to run the module?Makes perfect sense to me. Undermountain is in FR, remember? The only one that makes me wonder why is BoED. Is he dropping a hint about what kind of characters he's hoping for? I'd advise him to allow the Player's Guide to Faerun, which converts the FR to 3.5. Otherwise that's all cool. Some races, classes, feats, etc. may not be allowed. Not because the DM does not like them, but because the nature of the Undermountain makes them unusable. Example: Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Like druids, Vow of Poverty might actually increase our odds of survival. Most every class (or race or feat) is designed for almost every adventuring situation (Wizards of the Coast doesn’t have any reason to stat out non-adventuring things for an adventure game). Feel free to discourage certain things as you see fit, but don’t ban them without putting in some serious though first. It’s quite simple: More restrictions means less fun.This I don't understand. I'd suspect it's because certain places use restrictions like no food to challenge the PCs, and an ascetic doesn't require food by midlevels. Or air, either. For the sake of playability, wizards will be allowed to utilize their 2 gained spells per level if they've been able to study arcane tomes within a reasonable period of time gaining the level. If that is not possible, the unused spells are saved until the wizard finds suitable tomes to study. To place spells from scrolls into their spellbooks however, the standard rules apply. A wizard cannot be denied his new spells at a level up any more than a fighter can be denied his feats. This should be a non-issue.Agreed. Spells known are a part of developing spellcasting power. Tracking works for short distances. For long distances the spooky aspects of Undermountain severely inhibit tracking. If something actively interferes with tracking (like little invisible oomp-loompas sweeping up tracks everywhere) than fine. If this is your way of banning it because it would give us too much of an advantage, than it is not fine. Keep in mind that our party will probably try and track monster a lot since we are there to study them. William has already stated that his character would be picking up the Track feat before long.Dungeons are hard places to track things in. You should expect something like this. Here the DM is being generous enough to warn you that something may be different to what you expect. The Forgotten Realms feat "Spellcasting Prodigy" is only usable by dwarves and half-orc wizards. Why? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The feat is open to all races regardless of where they adventure. Also, why just those races?To make up for the penalty to casting ability these two races suffer, maybe? Remember, ½-orcs suffer penalties to both Int and Cha. General rules and such: Experience will be given based off of Encounter Level instead of Challenge Level. This is the way the rules work normally. You always base XP off of encounter level instead of challenge rating if it is given.No, as a matter of fact you dont. XP is awarded for each individual monster, not the EL. If you fight 8 CR2's you don't get one CR8, but 8 CR2s. It may make a difference somewhere. Only 2 ways to leave Undermountain. One is easy, the other is hard. I assume the easy way is death. Short of some outside influence keeping us from leaving (such as a collapse in the tunnel behind us or one of Halastar’s portals swooping us up and depositing us in an unfamiliar area) there’s absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t be able to leave whenever we want. Extradimensional travel and its ilk into Undermountain is okay. Leaving via such methods on the other hand… Again, teleporting in and out of Undermountain should work fine barring some external influence (like Halastar using powerful magic to prevent it for example).Here he's telling you something that you might - just might - want to take into account when designing and equipping your character. Because you can't leave Undermountain, if a player cannot make a game either the DM will play the PC or another player will run the PC. That PC will only get ½ xp. If you are taking steps to keep PCs balanced with one another and to keep from from falling behind, why are you making rules that may cause them to fall behind? Still, such a rule may encourage players to work harder at showing up to the games. Again, he's just told you that there will be things stopping you from leaving. Pay attention to the DM hints. If a caster investigates a magic item for an hour, he can identify it if his spellcraft skill is high enough. The player will automatically be assuming a "Take 20" on this. If this process is interrupted it must be started again. There may be modifiers to this check. Read up one the rules for identifying magical items in the Magic Item Compendium. It will make your life easier. If you really don’t want the game to focus around identifying magical items, you can just tell us what they are (I believe that is actually one of the options outlined in the Magic Item Compendium).MIC is not in use and those rules can be assumed not to apply. This is yet another hint that you may find it hard to use the standard methods, ie you will be reliant on pearls found for a Wizard to identify an item. While some cleric might have Identify, they can cast it only once per day. This rule says "I want to bypass the problems characters will have in the scenario" to me. DM hints are important. Pay attention to them, or you might find yourself screaming in frustration because your Druid can't cast spells any more and the party's got 10 items of magical gear they can't use because the pearls have run out. Wizard spells- the wizards 2 free spells are part of the levelling up process. I know its popular to ignore it, so much so that most people, including apparently yourself, have forgotten the rule even exists, but LEVELLING UP REQUIRES TRAINING TIME. You are NOT entitled to your free spells (nor a warrior to his feats) until this training is completed. I'd say this is his version of the training requirement.No, as a matter of fact it does not. PCs are assumed to level up as soon as they gain the xp and not one moment later. They can decide not to if they want to create a magic item or something. To summarise : Many of these houserules seem to be a way of dropping hints to you that you will not be able to come and go freely without actually saying so. There may well be a city of over a million inhabitants a mile away, but you cannot just go there on a whim. Characters who have been planned with the assumption that they can are going to be crippled and no fun to play after the first few encounters. Again. finish reading the whole section and you find this gem (see Adding Spells to a Wizards Spellbook, page 178). Now onto page 178-179; Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. certain refers to the current level of spells the wizard is able to cast. It is not a 'fluff' statement. Just as a ranger losing his nifty abilities when in heavy armor is not 'fluff'. Researching is furthering the differences between a wizard and sorcerer"Research" is most certainly the flavour explanation of how the wizard gains his spells. The DM can state, for example, that the spellbook is simply a tome filled with arcane notes and writings, and as the character advances in level he makes sense out of new sections of the notes. The ability is a core part of the wizard. If you take it away, then (for fairness) all classes must train or research to gain all class abilities, including spell slot increases. The only things gained automatically at level up would be hit points, base attack and base save bonuses and the ability increase every fourth level.
Infernostrider 09-07-07, 09:52 AM	i agree with all your replies dude, but you could have added that a teleporting rule-restriction should go no further then "to the adjecent room or the one beyond" and "from outside to inside, only to places previously visited" and if players really want to know why any DM can lie about some stupid reason >< whatever works edit: after reading through some more of the threads; that the op was commenting on every rule doesn't mean he thinks they are bad. Next to that, it's bit redundant to help an experienced (or any) party remember to bring torches. Next to that i agree with the undermountain shouldn't have houserules clause because it was meant to be the biggest challenge in D&D ever (unless somebody can come up with a new one, harder one, which is still fairly original) and it's A: hard enough without houserules limiting stuff or increasing CR's/DC's/etc, and B: if we wanted something easier we wouldn't be heading into undermountain in the first place (i say we because the op can't be the only one wanting to do it)
Alyri 09-07-07, 10:19 AM	"Research" is most certainly the flavour explanation of how the wizard gains his spells. The DM can state, for example, that the spellbook is simply a tome filled with arcane notes and writings, and as the character advances in level he makes sense out of new sections of the notes. The ability is a core part of the wizard. If you take it away, then (for fairness) all classes must train or research to gain all class abilities, including spell slot increases. The only things gained automatically at level up would be hit points, base attack and base save bonuses and the ability increase every fourth level. Research is the explanation on how the wizards gains his free spells. If you don't want to do the research then play a sorcerer. You did notice that the sorcerer is not limited in this way, didn't you? You also notice that the wizard has to do research to come up with a brand spanking new spell, wait my bad it's just fluff, all wizards spontaneously create new spells. Also notice that the wizard has two other sources on getting new spells. No other class has three different ways on gaining 'class features'
Krusk 09-07-07, 10:16 PM	Research could be described as the DM or player wishes, just as a spellbook can. A spellbook can be described as a dusty old tomb, tattoos on someones arm/body, charms on a necklace ect. Research could be simply being in the fieldand experimenting with diffrent hand signals and arcane words, in order to discover how best to create a new spell. It does not necessessarily mean reading books in a library. Currently for this campaign this DM has specified that it does in fact mean spells in a library method. But as to the houserules, again they dont seem too horrible. Aside from the one about wizards books, i dont dislike any of them.
VagrantWhisper 09-08-07, 12:44 PM	Only the following books are allowed: 3.5 Player’s Handbook, 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide (for prestige classes), the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Magic of Faerûn, Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, and the Book of Exalted Deeds. If any other books are used the DM will have to review them and okay them. Since everyone else has chimed in why the mechanics of most of the other house rules make sense (or don't) from undermountains point of view, I'll focus on this one, for one reason: Selective material has been a house rule in our group since the early days of 2nd Ed. The Default list for all our *setting specific* campaigns is: 3 Core Arms and Equipment and/or Setting specific equipment guide Setting specific Monster Manual Skills/Feats and Prestige from setting racial supplements only Relevant Regional Sourcebook Why? 1) It streamlines balance, playability and resource management. It limits the number of materials that players and DMs have to keep track of, and avoids excess meta-game munchkining. 2) Maintains consist flavour. Particularly important in setting specific settings, for our group. We play a number of different campaigns as most of our 7 players swap out DM duties ... so not mixing and matching materials allows us to all maintain the uniqueness of the respective settings we run. Balance is the biggest one though - I think a lot of players forget how unbalanced material like the Complete series, Compendiums, etc, really is relative to the core rules. Now, we own thousands of dollars of material in our collective library, so its not to say we don't ever use the alternate materials - We have a one off Red Hand of Doom where I'm a Shadowbane Stalker from complete adventurer for instance - but some days its nice to know that if I'm in a Midnight Campaign I don't have to worry about a Ninja showing up.
Merestil Haye 09-08-07, 04:00 PM	No other class has three different ways on gaining 'class features'You misunderstand what the class feature is. The class feature is not the spells the wizard gains, it is the methods of acquiring those spells, just as the class feature of the Fighter is not the feats he acquires, it is the ability to select those feats. And next time, please don't attribute my words to someone else, thank you very much.
heffroncm 09-08-07, 05:11 PM	> I know its popular to ignore it, so much so that most people, including > apparently yourself, have forgotten the rule even exists, but LEVELLING UP > REQUIRES TRAINING TIME. Training to gain a level is an optional rule, not a standard one. If you want to add it as an optional rule, that's fine - but it's unfair to apply it to just one class and not others. According to the PHB, you are only awarded XP between adventures when you have downtime to practice and consolidate your skills. In fact, the PHB recomends that DMS apply a penalty if you go an extended time without significant downtime. So, every class needs time between adventures to level up, unless the DM is going to houserule it otherwise, in which case they should allow Wizards to get there free spells every level.
albinomonkeyking 09-08-07, 06:17 PM	Seeing as the OP responds to friendly responses I'll give that a go. I can understand why you are upset; houserules tend to ruin the fun when you know the game inside and out. Being that you are experienced, (5-10 years) I believe that part of the problem is you know the game pretty well as it is. Instituting house rules applies a whole new level of things which you aren't accustomed to. You are used to getting your way because you took the time to play the game enough and research the rules and what you can make, etc., valid point. However, on the DM's side of things it seems he is simply trying to help. I understand some of his statements are insulting; (especially provided your background) but perhaps he had run this module before and ran into problems in the areas he has addressed, or he has read about problems in the areas he has addressed, or he foresees problems in the areas he has addressed. Your DM doesn't sound perfect but I think he is trying to cover all of his bases - a great sign. You want a DM who is prepared. Perhaps he banned druids because he doesn't want to run into the aforementioned problems which could arise. Perhaps he reminded you of so many silly things only because he wants it to go well, I know I'm guilty of 'talking down' to my players sometimes just because I want to ensure something. Additionaly, you have a problem because he is explaining little. First, calling him up, emailing him, talking to him face-to-face, or anything where you can directly have him clarify is the best response before getting angry. I know it would have been easier for the players had he simply explained in the email but please consider how much time a DM puts in as is. Perhaps he didn't explain because he is just trying to save himself some time. Keep in mind how much the DM must do as opposed to how much a player must do. His job is ten fold yours, if he wants to cut some corners and make life easier I wouldn't fault him, especially since it does not seem detrimental to any current characters. Lastly, being that he is your best friend and you are all very experienced I think walking away from the game is a huge mistake. It could put a strain on relationships or offend some of the people involved. I personally think as far as 'we may want to make a new character with..' statements, make a great team the first time. It is hard to do, but, if the team makes the group together and you all have as much experience as you say then it should be possible to limit deaths greatly. I would worry more about your first character and less about subsequent ones. Make your first one the best by what you have. Be civil, be reasonable, above all, be calm. Hope it goes well, good luck.
Alyri 09-09-07, 10:50 AM	You misunderstand what the class feature is. The class feature is not the spells the wizard gains, it is the methods of acquiring those spells, just as the class feature of the Fighter is not the feats he acquires, it is the ability to select those feats. I understand perfectly what the 'class feature' is. Wizards do not have a preset spell list like warmage, beguiler, etc. So yes it is a class feature to aquire any spell a wizard desires(as long as he is able to place that spell in his spellbook). According to the PHB, you are only awarded XP between adventures when you have downtime to practice and consolidate your skills. In fact, the PHB recomends that DMS apply a penalty if you go an extended time without significant downtime. So, every class needs time between adventures to level up, unless the DM is going to houserule it otherwise, in which case they should allow Wizards to get there free spells every level. Depends on what the wizard is doing during his downtime. The wizard's downtime is a hard thing to juggle. If it is limited and he wants to craft items and research a brand new spell, he probably wont have time to do his continuing research. Granted I know most groups 'gloss over' parts of the game they find unfun. However if they are the same groups that are complaining about the power of clerics and wizards perhaps they should start reading the rules a bit more and forcing the wizards and clerics(yes even clerics have to research, it's not mana from heaven) to do their continued research as they should be.
Arbitrary Aardvark 09-24-07, 04:18 PM	Again. finish reading the whole section and you find this gem (see Adding Spells to a Wizards Spellbook, page 178). Now onto page 178-179; Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures.....spells represent the results of her research. certain refers to the current level of spells the wizard is able to cast. It is not a 'fluff' statement. Just as a ranger losing his nifty abilities when in heavy armor is not 'fluff'. Researching is furthering the differences between a wizard and sorcerer So there is no point to running a wizard in a campaign which won't have distinct adventures.
unusualsuspect 09-24-07, 07:06 PM	Alyri: perhaps they should start reading the rules a bit more and forcing the wizards and clerics(yes even clerics have to research, it's not mana from heaven) to do their continued research as they should be. Hast thou textual support? I don't see anywhere in the PHB that states Clerics need to research the spells in the PHB (and in fact, it specifies quite clearly that "A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level". Once a cleric gets a 2nd level spell slot, he knows how to cast all 2nd level cleric spells.
PantherFern 09-25-07, 03:48 AM	OP: You've already said the DM lacks in communications skills correct? Perhaps the wizard issue is simply this: he wants you to RP it out a bit to show that you're consciously studying during any offtime when available to get those level-up spells. You know, you stop for the night "What are you guys doing?" "Well, since he's got first watch, I'm gonna prepare my spells and look through this book because there's a couple interesting things in here I'm trying to figure out." Great, now when you level up you've been researching your spells and you get them. Problem solved That's how I read it at least. You see, due to some of my friends, I have ranks in speaking Socially Inept and Fuzzy Explanations. You also seem to be actively seeking conflict here though no matter how insignificant or irrelevant (by your own admission) so I don't know if that can be solved or not.
Ayra 09-25-07, 10:54 AM	You've got Rule 0'd. Nothing to do about it. If you specifically don't like certain things because you want to try them out yourself, ask your DM and be as clear in it as you want. The undermountain is, as the name implies, under a mountain. This means there will be little to offer for druids who have spells that involve interaction with wild animals, spells that require the open air or a thunderstom. Things unlikely to happen in a deep underground dungeon. I can get where he's coming from and you do strike me as a bit whiney. Just make sure that Rule 0 is fact.
This_Dude 09-25-07, 06:27 PM	Druids are banned. They get hosed anyway, so no biggy. Druids are never hosed. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game regardless of what terrain they face. Not having one in the group is more likely to decrease our chances of success. If you feel it doesn’t fit the theme of the campaign, say so, but don’t ban it. Sure Druids are hosed. They can't commune with nature while they're underground. They can't get holly berries and twigs and whatnot underground. After about a week, pretty much any spell with a Focus requirement can't be cast because you can't get your Focus. Plus, an awful lot of people interpret that by voluntarily choosing to spend massive amounts of time underground, you'd "cease(s) to revere nature" and therefore become an ex-Druid until you can Atone. Even if you don't read it this way, you'd still lose all Focus spells and the Druid would certainly be all pissy-like without his trees and sky and fresh air, kind of like how I get without my coffee and cigarette.
PhaedrusXY 09-25-07, 06:31 PM	This isn't 2nd edition. Druids aren't prohibited from going underground, and I don't even remember anything mentioned that says druids don't like going underground. Nothing in the rules says it has to be a fresh sprig of mistletoe (or whatever it is) for their divine focus, either. One that has dried out should still work fine. I could easily imagine dwarven druids that spend all of their time underground, and consider that their natural environment. It's not like caves aren't natural.
This_Dude 09-25-07, 06:44 PM	This isn't 2nd edition. Druids aren't prohibited from going underground, and I don't even remember anything mentioned that says druids don't like going underground. Nothing in the rules says it has to be a fresh sprig of mistletoe (or whatever it is) for their divine focus, either. One that has dried out should still work fine. I could easily imagine dwarven druids that spend all of their time underground, and consider that their natural environment. It's not like caves aren't natural. Nothing in the rules says it can be a rotted away to nothing piece of mistletoe (or whatever it is) either. Carry a stick with berries and leave with you - it'll have mushed rotted berries and no leaves within a week, two at most. Plus, when you summon an animal companion, generally it is required that said animal exists in the area you are in - so if your A.C. dies, you're left with choice of Snake, small Snake, Medium Snake, or Large Snake depending on your level. Reading the Druid entry in PHB it becomes clear that "Nature" doesn't include "underground", mentions are made of islands and forests and what-not but not once is "underground" included in the descriptions of "Nature". That's why I and a lot of other players and GMs would consider volunteering to go away from nature for extended periods of time to be not revering nature anymore, and thereby turning the Druid into an ex-Druid. It's fine to play either way, and I see your point, I'd gladly play it that way for a campaign or two. But you'd still have that pesky twig-and-berries problem, and the A.C. problem too, unless you really start changing some rules.
PhaedrusXY 09-25-07, 07:00 PM	Have you ever seen mistletoe? It's the stuff that people hang over doorways during the holidays. That stuff lasts forever. It stays green and pretty fresh looking for literally months. And this stuff about having to have fresh mistletoe, and druids losing their powers for being underground, isn't covered in the rules at all. You're the one making up rules to penalize druids, for little reason other than you not liking them being underground, as far as I can see. There are good choices for companions that might be found in caves, also, like Dire Bats. I've never understood the mentality that some DMs have of wanting to penalize players for wanting to play something outside of the typical fantasy stereotypes, or doing something a little out of the ordinary. I can understand wanting to curb things that might threaten game balance, but there is nothing unbalancing about druids adventuring underground.
unusualsuspect 09-25-07, 07:11 PM	Nothing in the rules says it can be a rotted away to nothing piece of mistletoe (or whatever it is) either. Carry a stick with berries and leave with you - it'll have mushed rotted berries and no leaves within a week, two at most. Yeah, because, y'know, drying plants is a complete and utter impossibility. Especially for one knowledgable in the natural world. Plus, when you summon an animal companion, generally it is required that said animal exists in the area you are in - so if your A.C. dies, you're left with choice of Snake, small Snake, Medium Snake, or Large Snake depending on your level. Gee, I don't remember that mentioned in the Druid entry, nor do I see that mentioned anywhere in the Summon Nature's Ally spell description. Perhaps you could enlighten us where you read that? Besides that, there's a lot more animals than snakes that live underground. Reading the Druid entry in PHB it becomes clear that "Nature" doesn't include "underground", mentions are made of islands and forests and what-not but not once is "underground" included in the descriptions of "Nature". That's why I and a lot of other players and GMs would consider volunteering to go away from nature for extended periods of time to be not revering nature anymore, and thereby turning the Druid into an ex-Druid. It's fine to play either way, and I see your point, I'd gladly play it that way for a campaign or two. But you'd still have that pesky twig-and-berries problem, and the A.C. problem too, unless you really start changing some rules. First and foremost, Complaining to someone about houserules when you're enforcing a good deal of your own is bad form, in my humble opinion. Second, Flora and Fauna exist in the underground, especially undergrounds capable of supporting entirely CIVILIZATIONS of humanoids and monsters. So how, exactly, is naturally-existing flora and fauna not an aspect of "nature", albeit one a wee bit sparser than, say, a rainforest? Third, where do you see "nature", ESPECIALLY concerning a druid's view of nature, defined in the PHB? I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing EXAMPLES in which a druid is more likely to protect a stand of trees or a trackless mountain than, say, a human village... but examples are NOT meant to be taken as the only possibilities. I don't see desert terrains mentioned ANYWHERE in the druid entry, but surely a druid could come from the desert as well? Edit: Damn, I come off as an ass, don't I? Sorry 'bout that. But you DO seem to be pulling both mechanics AND flavor out the ass, so... *shrug*
deathbane 09-25-07, 10:10 PM	Nothing in the rules says it can be a rotted away to nothing piece of mistletoe (or whatever it is) either. Carry a stick with berries and leave with you - it'll have mushed rotted berries and no leaves within a week, two at most. Plus, when you summon an animal companion, generally it is required that said animal exists in the area you are in - so if your A.C. dies, you're left with choice of Snake, small Snake, Medium Snake, or Large Snake depending on your level. Reading the Druid entry in PHB it becomes clear that "Nature" doesn't include "underground", mentions are made of islands and forests and what-not but not once is "underground" included in the descriptions of "Nature". That's why I and a lot of other players and GMs would consider volunteering to go away from nature for extended periods of time to be not revering nature anymore, and thereby turning the Druid into an ex-Druid. It's fine to play either way, and I see your point, I'd gladly play it that way for a campaign or two. But you'd still have that pesky twig-and-berries problem, and the A.C. problem too, unless you really start changing some rules. I don't see this. I even went to the SRD and used the find function. I think this is being made up.
This_Dude 09-26-07, 07:00 AM	I don't see this. I even went to the SRD and used the find function. I think this is being made up. What don't you see? That Druids have to "revere nature"? It's listed under "ex-Druid". Read the PHB about Druid - how they love their trees and whatnot. Their shadowy organization description includes the bits about groups in foresty areas and island type areas etc. Someone who "Loves Gold" and gets their powers FROM gold, and loses their powers if the "cease to love gold" would surely lose their powers if, for example, they threw all their gold in a trash heap and went to a place where there was no gold. Someone who "reveres nature" and gets their powers FROM nature, and loses their powers if they "cease to revere nature" should also surely lose their powers if, for example, they leave all their nature behind and go to a place where there was no nature. Nature doesn't, in the context of a Druid, include anything that's "natural". It means sky and trees and such. If there's no trees to hug, the hippie has limited power. As for the Animal Companion, it "accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind." Dire Bats were mentioned - their natural environment is "temperate deserts". Underground is NOT "temperate desert". Is it "appropriate for its kind" for a bear to be underground for signifigant periods of time? Or a cheetah, or a hawk, etc? No. It would certainly be appropriate for any of the Animals available to the Druid as companions to go underground with their friend the Druid for a brief time, but not for extended periods of time, weeks or months. Now, there's no specific rule item listed under the Druid's Abilities that says a specific effect for a specific period away from nature - but this Role Playing Game is about more than charts - read the "fluff" about the Druid. One playing a Druid must "revere nature" and all that good stuff. If you just want the numbers, then by all means go ahead. But don't all fly off the handle because someone thinks that a Hippie would lose his Hippie Powers if he suddenly donned a suit and went to work in an office.
Radijs 09-26-07, 07:10 AM	Lets see. There's no nature underground? You might as well say there's no hydrogen in a sun. You can find life just about anywhere and then some. 200 degrees and dozens of atmospheres of pressure? Crabs, eels and their ilk live around volcanic vents. Caverns filled with water so acidic it would put your digestive system to shame. Cultures of fungi & bacteria happily living their short flicker lives. If he went to live in an office then maybe, even though I'm looking at a pair of potted plants who could use a druids care. But there's plenty of life underground. I'd expect you could find insects, spiders (I mean DROW live underground and they REVERE them) All sorts of small animals. Maybe even cave tyranossaurus(Sp).
Grumman 09-26-07, 07:57 AM	Someone who "Loves Gold" and gets their powers FROM gold, and loses their powers if the "cease to love gold" would surely lose their powers if, for example, they threw all their gold in a trash heap and went to a place where there was no gold. 1. Going underground is the equivilant to throwing nature aside? Does this mean that druids can't enter buildings, either? Or deserts? 2. I strongly disagree that simply not being close to gold would be sufficient evidence that the character had ceased to love gold. As for the Animal Companion, it "accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind." Dire Bats were mentioned - their natural environment is "temperate deserts". Underground is NOT "temperate desert". Is it "appropriate for its kind" for a bear to be underground for signifigant periods of time? Or a cheetah, or a hawk, etc? No. It would certainly be appropriate for any of the Animals available to the Druid as companions to go underground with their friend the Druid for a brief time, but not for extended periods of time, weeks or months. Read page 76 of the DMG, the section titled "Dungeon Animals". As the title suggests, there are, in fact animals that live in dungeons (Shock! Horror!). Then slam the book shut on your face a few times for being an idiot.
Ayra 09-26-07, 09:05 AM	There is even an urban-druid template if I'm not mistaken, were druids get animal companions that help them out in the city life. Think of a dog, a rat (for spying purposes) or something along those lines. He trades in some of his core abilities for some new ones that make for a good urban druid. Anyway, as said before druids can practically live anywhere. Under the ground there are plants and animals as well, but I agree with DM's who wouldn't like to see a druid go underground for extended periods of time. If you build your whole campaign around the undermountain, it means that the players will live in or near to the city of waterdeep and they will go down one of the many entrypoints into the undermountain to find treasure and solve quests. The creatures entering the undermountain have been mostly pulled in there by Hallaster's Harvestide (if I'm spelling that correctly), so it's likely to see animals there but they're probably not in their natural habitat. I'd also say no to druids in the undermountain, unless they are some sort of urban druid or okay with them not being able to do some things.
Cifer 09-26-07, 09:57 AM	Ok. Let's assume for a moment the Underdark isn't nature, despite all the animals, fungi and other strange stuff. Let's even ignore there are several prestige classes and substitution levels which enhance a druid's ability to function underground. Isn't it the point of most divine casters that they help establish their cause where it isn't present already? Would you say a good cleric that ventures into the dominion of an evil lich in order to slay said lich should lose their powers?
deathbane 09-26-07, 12:00 PM	What don't you see? That Druids have to "revere nature"? It's listed under "ex-Druid". Read the PHB about Druid - how they love their trees and whatnot. Their shadowy organization description includes the bits about groups in foresty areas and island type areas etc. Someone who "Loves Gold" and gets their powers FROM gold, and loses their powers if the "cease to love gold" would surely lose their powers if, for example, they threw all their gold in a trash heap and went to a place where there was no gold. Someone who "reveres nature" and gets their powers FROM nature, and loses their powers if they "cease to revere nature" should also surely lose their powers if, for example, they leave all their nature behind and go to a place where there was no nature. Nature doesn't, in the context of a Druid, include anything that's "natural". It means sky and trees and such. If there's no trees to hug, the hippie has limited power. As for the Animal Companion, it "accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind." Dire Bats were mentioned - their natural environment is "temperate deserts". Underground is NOT "temperate desert". Is it "appropriate for its kind" for a bear to be underground for signifigant periods of time? Or a cheetah, or a hawk, etc? No. It would certainly be appropriate for any of the Animals available to the Druid as companions to go underground with their friend the Druid for a brief time, but not for extended periods of time, weeks or months. Now, there's no specific rule item listed under the Druid's Abilities that says a specific effect for a specific period away from nature - but this Role Playing Game is about more than charts - read the "fluff" about the Druid. One playing a Druid must "revere nature" and all that good stuff. If you just want the numbers, then by all means go ahead. But don't all fly off the handle because someone thinks that a Hippie would lose his Hippie Powers if he suddenly donned a suit and went to work in an office. Ex-Druids A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description). Sounds nothing like what you said about islands and forest, so you did make it up. Nature is also underground. I am sure that if people were destroying plants and animals underground the druid would help them too, unless those other animals and plants are not as worthy for some reason, and in order to help them he/she would need access to the druid's powers. The druid would most likely prefer to be above ground, just like most other people, but for you to say it is required is not even reading between the lines. It is more like writing between the lines. P.S. I am not flying off the handle, but if you come to the board introducing rules where there are none, and I have time, I will correct you.
mearrin69 09-26-07, 03:18 PM	I know for a fact that hippies retain all hippy power, even when wearing a suit and sitting in a cubicle. :P~ To the OP: These seem like reasonable stipulations to me - though maybe the DM should be open to discussion on some of the points (esp. banning a core class). I personally think Druids are a bit beardy but I don't ban them - even though my encounters around lvl 9 or so start filling up with rooms of huge animals grappling and smashing and what not. No worse than a maximized fireball or similar (heh, less powerful than some of the *crap* one of my players is fishing up out of the Spell Compendium). M
Alyri 09-27-07, 12:37 PM	So there is no point to running a wizard in a campaign which won't have distinct adventures. Seems like it doesn't it. Alyri: Hast thou textual support? I don't see anywhere in the PHB that states Clerics need to research the spells in the PHB (and in fact, it specifies quite clearly that "A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level". Once a cleric gets a 2nd level spell slot, he knows how to cast all 2nd level cleric spells. Ask and ye shall receive: PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures..... The other way is making a brand new spell..
Krusk 09-27-07, 01:15 PM	PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures..... The other way is making a brand new spell.. underlined is mine. most frequently. This means there are other ways aside from the two listed. These are just the most common. Example- most frequently citizens of the united states are white. There are other races that are also us citizens, but most often they are white. This is similar to the wizards must use spellbooks arguement. But in the DMG2 it clearly gives other examples of methods for storing spells, so long as all the costs are paid. Such as tattoos, braids, figurines, wood carvings, paintings, cloaks with pictures. ect
Alyri 09-27-07, 03:44 PM	Okay so out of the 20 lvls how many levels do you get to 'ignore' this feature? 1-4? Or is the 'character' one of the few who gets to ignore the whole equation?
Cifer 09-27-07, 03:57 PM	underlined is mine. most frequently. This means there are other ways aside from the two listed. These are just the most common. And you wouldn't think that a cleric - that is the divine caster class - would be using an uncommon way to learn spells? Wouldn't this way automatically be made common by clerics using it? Especially since I can't find any differences in the learning process of paladins, clerics and druids...
DM Denubis 09-29-07, 12:57 PM	Wizards and Clerics (God, I can't believe I had to include Clerics.) gain their spells while leveling up. Come on, that's obvious. The "research" bit is just the fluff. The mechanics support gaining them when you level. If you want to gimp casters, go right ahead. It's your game, and I don't play in it, so hey, that's cool. But before you do, go get your DM's Guide and hit yourself in the face a few times, so at lease you can justify the raw stupidity.
Radijs 09-29-07, 02:38 PM	When did the rules regarding cleric change? I thought they knew every spell that they could cast?
Alyri 09-29-07, 10:32 PM	Wizards and Clerics (God, I can't believe I had to include Clerics.) gain their spells while leveling up. Come on, that's obvious. The "research" bit is just the fluff. The mechanics support gaining them when you level. If you want to gimp casters, go right ahead. It's your game, and I don't play in it, so hey, that's cool. But before you do, go get your DM's Guide and hit yourself in the face a few times, so at lease you can justify the raw stupidity. Play how you want, I'm just telling you the actual rules of the game.
SokenzanMarauder 09-29-07, 10:46 PM	I'm just telling you the actual rules of the game. No, you're telling us your interpretation of them. And, from my point of view, it's flawed. -Gene
deathbane 09-30-07, 03:26 AM	All classes are assumed to be practicing their skills in downtime, and the research/practice is just an optional rule for those who like more roleplaying, but it is not a rule that has to be followed.
Alyri 09-30-07, 10:47 AM	No, you're telling us your interpretation of them. And, from my point of view, it's flawed. -Gene It's not an interpetation, where do you get that it is an interpetation? All classes are assumed to be practicing their skills in downtime, and the research/practice is just an optional rule for those who like more roleplaying, but it is not a rule that has to be followed. Strangely enough no where in the spellcasting section does it say "This is an optional rule" Haven't people ever gotten that, why does every NPC wizard have a tower with lots of books, feeling before? Or does every PC wizard have the master cliffnotes to all magical writings in the back of his spellbook that he reads while on the john.
SokenzanMarauder 09-30-07, 01:56 PM	It's not an interpetation, where do you get that it is an interpetation? Because it hasn't been like that in any edition of D&D perhaps? That and the fact that it says the following, on D20 SRD: Spells A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below). Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. I bolded the important part... Further, if such was the case, why would the Archivist class exist? It casts exactly like a cleric but must prepare spells like a wizard (needs to scribe them and whatnot). -Gene
Alyri 09-30-07, 02:17 PM	SRD doesn't trump PHB
SokenzanMarauder 09-30-07, 02:22 PM	SRD doesn't trump PHB *laughs* Wow... Very well, here's from the PHB; word for word: Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. I'd bold the important parts again, but the whole thing disproves your point. -Gene
SirTodd 09-30-07, 06:05 PM	"More restrictions means less fun." This is a completely false statement. Restrictions have nothing to do with fun. Your personal attitude is the primary cause of fun. From the tone you use in your part of the post, I HIGHLY recommend evaluating your own attitude. Someone with a chip on their shoulder isn't going to have very much fun regardless of what they play. You have a valid argument about wizard spell gains. He should either require training for all classes or none for any. Training is not required in normal play. It is simply waived with the loose explanation that at some mysterious point a PC trained either while adventuring or while in 'downtime'. Does the bard suddenly know a new language when he levels, does the fighter suddenly know how to whirl around hitting everyone?
Alyri 09-30-07, 07:29 PM	*laughs* Wow... Very well, here's from the PHB; word for word: I'd bold the important parts again, but the whole thing disproves your point. -Gene PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures..... The other way is making a brand new spell.. Notice how pg 180 never says anything about studying for a particular spell. Now lets take both rules and put them together. PHB - Page 32 - Cleric - Spells Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures So now we know that clerics get access all spells from a spell level and they have to study to gain access to these spells.
SokenzanMarauder 09-30-07, 07:35 PM	PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures..... The other way is making a brand new spell.. Notice how pg 180 never says anything about studying for a particular spell. Now lets take both rules and put them together. PHB - Page 32 - Cleric - Spells Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. PHB page 180: NEW DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways. Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures So now we know that clerics get access all spells from a spell level and they have to study to gain access to these spells. But they do not need to have access to scrolls or anything of the sort. Unlike Wizards, who must scribe scrolls a Cleric doesn't. They just 'get' them. Through study, or otherwise. They, don't however, have to pay (in any way) for them or go out of their way to get them (It'd be fair to say that they handle it during party 'down time'; in my opinion). Unless the DM says that they do of course. -Gene
deathbane 09-30-07, 08:07 PM	It's not an interpetation, where do you get that it is an interpetation? Strangely enough no where in the spellcasting section does it say "This is an optional rule" Haven't people ever gotten that, why does every NPC wizard have a tower with lots of books, feeling before? Or does every PC wizard have the master cliffnotes to all magical writings in the back of his spellbook that he reads while on the john. DMG pg 198 Learning New Spells Divine spell caster just get new spells when they get the ability to cast then. Their deities, or the powers they revere, take care of it all for them. You will not find a ranger in a library trying to learn a new wpell. Arcane caster don't have things quite so easily. Wizard must lean new spells and add them to their spell books. This process is detailed in the PHB(pg 178) PHB 178 Spells fained at a new level: Wizards perform a certain amount of research between adventures. Each time a character attains a wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice... back to page DMG page 198 According to the standard rule sorcerers, and bards don't need to study books to gain new spells when they gain levels. FAQ pg 24 DUNGEONS & DRAGONS assumes that all characters are constantly training in their abilities, and that new class features, spells, feats, and so on are automatically gained upon reaching a new level without the need for special training costs. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides options for DMs who wish to require formalized training for characters to improve their abilities (DMG 197). So the research is required, but it is also assumed to automatically take place so to make your players roleplay the research is an optional rule.
Mock26 09-30-07, 08:39 PM	Maybe you should take over the role of being the DM. If not, then either accept the houserules or leave the game. If you do have any problems with the DM's houserules, take it up with the DM! Posting your gripes here lets you vent your frustration, but beyond that it doesn't really serve much purpose. So, talk to your DM and get things explained to you. No one here on these boards (accept the possibility of your DM if he is on these boards) can explain to you why the DM has done certain things. We can hypothesize, but we cannot explain because we are not your DM. ======================================== ===== Also, quoting rules to argue against house rules is actually a bit pointless because house rules, according to the rules as written, are allowed. In regards to the thing about not getting new spells, I think it is realistic. I require training and learning to get new spells and feats. I like my fantasy game to be based in reality.
Merestil Haye 10-01-07, 07:51 AM	SRD doesn't trump PHBIncorrect. The SRD is an online version of the referenced rulebooks. Any differences in the two are due to the following. The SRD has incorporated the official errata issued from time to time by WotC, whereas the printed book has not. The SRD omits certain names, monsters and other intellectual property not included by Wizards of the Coast. The SRD does not include a character generation system. The SRD does not include some examples that the printed book does.The first point is huge. It means, for example, that if you read the Righteous Might spell, the SRD gives the version that WotC have said is correct, and the PHB does not. For the correct rules on Wildshape, go to the SRD and not the PHB, and if you're trying to calculate the price of a ring of X-ray vision and Invisibility, you will get the price wrong if you believe what the DMG says. A maintained SRD (WotC does not maintain its own) is more likely to be correct than the books, because they incorporate errata that the printed books do not.
Alyri 10-01-07, 10:58 AM	The SRD doesn't have all of the rules from the PHB and DMG. While it is nice to reference, I do not use it over the PHB and DMG
Gemstone 10-01-07, 11:26 AM	First of all, the SRD only trumphs the DMG, the PHB and the MM if it specificly says so, or some source in the three Core books says so (I'm not arguing either way, just presenting my point of view). However, clerics doesn't learn spells as wizards do, but my interprentation of the rules is that a cleric who hasn't had time to study doesn't get any new spells, but as soon as they study the new level of spells, they gain access to all those spells of that level. The wizard rule however, is fair and square since he warned them about it. I would probably buy a lot of unread books and bring with me into the dungeon, thus learning more spells through the use of them. If that doesn't work, simply buy loads of scrolls.
deathbane 10-01-07, 04:09 PM	Commenting on the last three post http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 is the one done by wizards,but it does not have the variant classes from unearth arcana. The Hypertext one is better(for me). The SRD does not have all the rules. The character generation rules are not there, but it does normally have the errata so there should not be a difference between the PHB/MM/DMG unless errata is ignored. The wizard thing is up to the DM. I just hopes if he ignores the research in downtime thing, that he provides time to get it done. The other issue is the book never says that if research is needed, how many hours are acceptable to learn the new spells. I would ask all the questions before making a character.
MrCustomer 10-01-07, 04:37 PM	You can always ask the DM for more clarification on these rules, many of which seem to be there simply because he was listing the rules, not for any particular reason. As for the Wizard spells, you should point out to the DM that the 2 spells per level are persumed to have been researched on a day to day basis by the wizard between levels. Probably during his daily meditation he spens an extra bit of time researching, pondering on the magical properties while traveling, reading before sleep by the campfire each night, etc. Also point out that if a wizard has extra time to research spells, he can learn more more spells on top of those two spells. I don't have the book with me but I beleive it is a week per spell level plus a certain amount of gold/level in components/costs. It's ok for the DM to require training time for skills, spells, feats etc, so long as he makes sure the PCs actually can get that time and access to trainers etc. It would suck for a wizard to spend 2 levels with no spells simply because the DM keeps them away from any rsources to learn them.
paladin2019 10-01-07, 05:16 PM	A maintained SRD (WotC does not maintain its own) is more likely to be correct than the books, because they incorporate errata that the printed books do not. If it ain't published by WotC, how is it more likely to be correct than their stuff?
Radijs 10-01-07, 05:26 PM	What Merestil meant I think is that Wizard doesn't maintain its own SRD WEBSITE. They do have an SRD available for download.
PhaedrusXY 10-01-07, 06:45 PM	If it ain't published by WotC, how is it more likely to be correct than their stuff?WotC puts out Errata. Errata are official changes to the rules. They also put out an SRD. The SRD contains all of the official rules that are OGL. It does not contain a few "proprietary" things like XP tables, wealth by level, and a few monsters (illithids, etc). WotC is sometimes sluggish on incorporating the Errata into the SRD. Some 3rd party sites host the SRD also, and they are much better about incorporating the Errata into their versions. So they are indeed sometimes more accurate and up to date versions of the SRD than the one hosted on the actual WotC website. They basically do all the work of reading the Errata for you.
Merestil Haye 10-02-07, 06:28 AM	What Merestil meant I think is that Wizard doesn't maintain its own SRD WEBSITE. They do have an SRD available for download.To be clear, what I mean is that the text files available from the Wizards website under the description of "the SRD" had, in March 2006, incorporated the following errata documents. The PHB errata file dated 24th September 2003. The DMG errata file dated 12th March 2004.It had not incorporated the changes introduced in the following. The PHB errata file dated 7th September 2004. The PHB errata file dated 17th February 2006. The MM errata file dated 18th June 2004. The MM errata file dated 17th February 2006.Therefore it cannot be considered as up-to-date as the online SRD sites which incorporate the errata as they come out. Since these sites reproduce what WotC say the relevant books would say if they were printed today, they are (within the limits of the licence) more accurate than the core rulebooks, which (obviously) cannot be updated to reflect the way WotC have changed the rules. They don't include the rules for generating a character or determining how he levels up, but the DM is free to use his own rules there if he wishes. Neither do they incorporate some WotC-owned intellectual property (such as Beholders and Illithids) but you don't need them to play. Additionally many spells are included with changed names as the PHB names incorporate WotC intellectual property - but that's a change which makes no difference to play.
DM Denubis 10-02-07, 11:09 AM	Blah blah blah blah. Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school. Where does it say that in order to get said spells, the Wizard must perform research? You'll find that this is not an if/then statement. It doesn't say that Wizards must perform a certain amount of spell research. It says that they do. It also says that Clerics pray for their spells. Do you make your player declare that he's praying to Pelor every time he goes to prepare spells, or he simply doesn't get his new level of spells when he levels? Believe it or not, there is such a thing as flavor text.
Eater_Of_Souls 10-02-07, 11:39 AM	It also says that Clerics pray for their spells. Do you make your player declare that he's praying to Pelor every time he goes to prepare spells, or he simply doesn't get his new level of spells when he levels? If the cleric prays some other deity then his own he's going be looking for an attunement pretty soon.
SokenzanMarauder 10-02-07, 12:08 PM	I don't think that Alyri is going to concede her (his?) point any time soon guys. We've proven her (him?) wrong a good number of times and she (he?) refuses to admit it; why do you think I dropped out of this thread? She (he?) plays how she (he?) wants to. Nothing we say is going to stop it. -Gene
DM Denubis 10-02-07, 12:12 PM	If the cleric prays some other deity then his own he's going be looking for an attunement pretty soon. Thanks, that's totally relevant.
trapspringer 10-03-07, 06:13 PM	His house rules are fine. A lot of the points you criticize as being the case already in fact aren't. For example, the party receives experience as a group last I checked, and that experience is awarded for individual monsters and traps, not EL. EL is a tool for weighing the danger of an encounter. Have you ever played in a game and picked a bunch of uber cool skills for your diplomat only to find yourself dungeon crawling? How 'bout that time your acrobat got stuck attending a royal gathering of nobles? A list of relavent skills is a boon, not a penalty. You generally need to quite whining. Not only do you not know jack-spork about the campaign, but you also aren't nearly as familiar with the rules as you think. Give the DM the benefit of a doubt.