DM Says I'm Too Powerful... [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM Says I'm Too Powerful... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
magikot
05-02-07, 03:39 AM ...and we haven't even started the game!! Now, I know I optimize my characters (some say to the point of powergaming), but here's what happened:

Last friday the DM got all 5 of the players together for a character creation process. Knowing that the DM did not have the Unearthed Arcana I brought a copy of mine and informed him I would like to play a gestalt Hum N Sor/Wiz. He read through the gestalt section and ok'ed it.

After rolling and assigning my abilities (10, 13, 15, 16, 12, 18) and buying skills and feats (Sribe Scroll - free for Wiz, Combat Casting - lvl 1 feat, Toughness - bonus human), he told us we started with maximum gold for our class and were playing a Forgotten Realms campaign.

I instantly chose the package from Halruaa that gives four 1st lvl scrolls (Identify x2, Grease, Enlarge Person), and two 2nd lvl scrolls (Knock, Invisibility). After purchasing my starting equipment I had enough gold left over to also purchase a potion of cure light wounds and employ a 1st lvl warrior henchman NPC for 1 week of game time.

My Sor 1st level spells are Magic Missile and Mage Armor, and my 1st level Wiz spells known are Ray of Enfeeblement (prepared), True Strike (prepared), Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, and Summon Monster 1.

Skills are Spellcraft, Concentration and Knowledge (Arcana) Maxed out, and 2 points each (for 1 rank) in the following cross class skills: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Search.

After handing in my character for review and approval from the DM he looked it over, I've been told I'm too powerful for a level 1 character, despite everything being purchased within the rules that were ok'ed by him. I have until Friday to find a way to tone my character down and the only other way I'd want to play him is from Sembia (I think that's the one) to recieve an extra 300 starting gold but I'm afraid that would make me too powerful as well. Or I can change his physical stats around to 10, 15, 13 or 15, 10, 13 and get myself a morning star to play with (which sounds kind of fun...)

The thing is, I don't see him as being too powerful. My stats are good, yes - but I'm 100% reliant on my spell casting. My trusty dagger isn't going to be doing me much good after level 1. I have the second highest hit points in the group (9) but I sort of need them to survive to second level...

Any advice on what I can do?
adgramaine
05-02-07, 04:16 AM Here's the problem... there's not much you can do unless everyone in the group is playing gestalt. Now, I didn't see anything to that point in your OP, but if the group is already doing this, then I'm really not sure what to tell you without knowing what everyone else in the group will be playing.

But if you are the only one who made a gestalt character, then there's only two options at this point, and I'm afraid that would be to make a non-gestalt character, or convince the DM to let all the players run using these same rules.

Not everyone likes Gestalt, and it does lend to power-gaming. But if your DM is up for the challenge, and your other players are savvy for it, then I wish you luck in what is sure to be a great over-the-top game.

Otherwise, make a archivist and play him to level three or four before multi-classing into wizard... then start looking at the mystic theurge. It's about the closest thing you can get to what seems to be your original character concept.

Either way, I have to admit I have a morbid curiosity as to how this pans out for you. Just take everything said here and at the table with a grain of salt. And good luck, either way. :D
Redclock_the_Untimely
05-02-07, 04:26 AM The big no no is if you are the only gestalt character in an otherwise normal campaign. Not knowing what books are available to you I offer this advice. The Ultimate Magus class from Complete Mage is similar to what you are doing while less powerful in many ways but more so in others. Other than that, your character is not overpowered and Toughness usually weakens characters in the long run as improved toughness (Complete Warrior) grows with the character and Craft Wondrous Item + Amulet of Health = better than improved toughness. Regarding spending, I don't know how much gold you started with, you said max, but level 2 scrolls cost 150gp each and no starting class can afford one, much less two and still afford starting equipment. Max level one starting gold for any class is 200gp by RAW. Finally, hiring the NPC was a bit much, well within the rules, but a bit much. Then again, it's your character, not mine so whatever is fun and still within the rules is fine by me.
Yokomohoyo
05-02-07, 04:30 AM Again since nothing was mentioned about the rest of the party, we dont know if everyone in your game is playing gesalt or not. If they are then try getting a LA of 2 or 3 wich will weaken you a bit or try mixing other classes. Now if their not playing gesalt characters then all I have to say is hell yeah your character is overpowered. Remember a gesalt is like playing two (2) characters in one. You will have but one option in this case... Play a non-gesalt.
magikot
05-02-07, 04:46 AM Two of the other players are playing +1 LA characters (a tiefling rogue and a fighter with a race from Races of Stone), the other 2 are playing a human cleric and a human bard.

I think I will look into the ultimate magus suggestion. The DM has the book so I'll need to borrow it thursday to remake.

@Redclock:

I started with the max gold available to a wizard following RAW, but in Forgotten Realms there is a starting package for characters from Halruaa that gives you four 1st level and two second level scrolls for free.
Shadowhowler
05-02-07, 06:40 AM I started with the max gold available to a wizard following RAW, but in Forgotten Realms there is a starting package for characters from Halruaa that gives you four 1st level and two second level scrolls for free.

So, I take it your a Halruaan wizard? Halruaan wizards ARE the shizzle, but even so... Gestalt characters should only be played if everyone is playing them. It specificly SAYS this in the discription for Gestalt characters... so I'm guessing both you and your DM didn't read much. :(

How are the other two playing LA+1 characters at first level also? I'm currious how they worked that.

The game sounds funky.
Luis_Dragunov
05-02-07, 07:32 AM Two of the other players are playing +1 LA characters (a tiefling rogue and a fighter with a race from Races of Stone), the other 2 are playing a human cleric and a human bard.

Well, there's your problem right there - and noone's to blame but your DM. I suppose he knows how to handle, at least, Level Adjustments so I guess the human cleric and the human bard are lvl2 and the +1LA characters are lvl1.

And then you are the gestalt character. The problem is, gestalt is really tricky to put a level adjustment on. It isn't a template and it's not fair to say you're doubly powerful because, no matter what abilities you got, you still have, as standard, one move action and one standard action per round to use all that.

Solution? Ask your DM to make everyone a gestalt or drop it.
Callista
05-02-07, 08:37 AM Yeah, you're too powerful... what's worse, a couple of your fellow players' characters aren't powerful enough.

Talk to the DM about allowing those two people without LAs to take a second level... then you and they can start at 2nd level, non-gestalt. That should match you up to the +1 LA people, with the overall effect being a 2nd level party.

D&D is no fun when your character's out of balance, trust me. I once played a 20th level mystic theurge for whom I'd rolled (18,18,18, 16, 14,10) in an otherwise mostly nonmagical level 20 party... at that level, magic really shines, and the good stats didn't help either. Basically, the DM had to pick things that would kill the others in order to challenge me; and he was inexperienced with high level campaigns on top of it. So the campaign lasted only one session; we went back to our usual 10th-level stuff after that.

Even out the characters' power levels, or it won't be any fun.
daggeroflath
05-02-07, 08:50 AM Any advice on what I can do?

Well most of the issues have already been raised by the others here.

Basically your DM is inexperienced and you've either made some mistakes or deliberately pulled the wool over his eyes. Gestalt is a campaign option, not an individual character option.

Unless your DM knows what he's doing (in which case he'll ask this himself most likely) it is not appropriate to bring a book along that he doesn't have and ask to play a character from it. Convention dictates that the appropriate way of doing this is to lend the DM the book for a week and get his approval after a week of study. If you are unwilling to make the book available to the DM at any time he wishes, for as long as he needs, then you aren't entitled to use anything from it.

The DM must know the rules you're using, otherwise it's not fair on either of you. He'll keep being surprised by your abilities and you'll be annoyed by the frequent misunderstandings since he doesn't actually know those rules.

I'm a fan of character-optimisation, but you might want to cut down a little, just while everyone catches their footing. Maybe you could teach the other players and the DM a few of the tricks of the trade. That way next time, you can optimize to your heart's content and know that everyone else can keep up.

Hope this helps.
Clawhound
05-02-07, 09:07 AM In addition to everything else, drop your NPC. Most first level characters should not have NPCs.

I don't know how you are getting 2nd level scrolls at first level. Those are 150 gp each. You list 400 gp of wealth, AND have a hireling. That is way too much money for a first level character.
Morwen
05-02-07, 11:24 AM As for the hireling NPC: If he is a part of the group, he will get an equal share of experience as the rest of you (meaning you're splitting XP 6-ways instead of the usual 5-ways). I would drop him, if I were you :)
Ninja_Sensei
05-02-07, 12:44 PM My input goes along with the "if you're the only gestalt PC, then you'll most likely have to make a singel class character" idea.

My suggestion is to start as either a wizard or sorcerer (I'd suggest wizard), multiclass in the other, and look toward the Ultimate Magus prestige class in the Complete Mage book. It allows some progression in both prepared and spontaneous classes as you go forward, along with swapping spells from list to list (sort of ... I'm simplifying, but I'm at the office and don't have access to the book ... OH! How I wish for PDF versions of all the books!!!!).

Other than that, or even after that for a bit, Mystic Theurge would also work I guess.

PS> I like the idea of taking a hrieling as 1st Level equipment. :)
AtmaWeapon
05-02-07, 08:37 PM I don't know how you are getting 2nd level scrolls at first level. Those are 150 gp each. You list 400 gp of wealth, AND have a hireling. That is way too much money for a first level character.

This has been answered many times. But, for clarification since I know there are probably not a lot of people with access to the rules, here is the answer, yet again.

In the Forgotten Realms rules, each region of the world has favored races/classes. If you begin as one of those combinations of race, class, and region, you are allowed to select 1 option from a list of "extra" gear that corresponds to that region. For example, some regions grant potions, some grant scrolls, and some grant masterwork arms and armor. This is given to your PC at no cost as a "perk" for making a race/class/region combo that fits into the overall feel of the Realms, thus helping FR feel more like FR

Secondly, as has been stated, either the whole campaign is gestalt or none of it is. There is no way to make a gestalt character work in a group of normal PCs. You will always be more powerful, more capable, and thus more "the focus" of the campaign. This is no fun for the other players.

Your DM was right to turn this character away.

As for Tieflings and Aasimar... a tiefling in a party of 1st level characters isn't unbalancing. They are barely worthy of thier level adjustment, especially if you're using rolled stats.

And scrap the NPC. It's supposed to be about your characters, not who you employ.
Dragoloth
05-02-07, 09:08 PM I've a gestalt campaign, and they are definately at least cr 2 ahead. Gestalt is more planning and work for a DM. Some classes were not meant for gestalt, besides the obvious PrC's that already mix classes. If the whole party isn't gestalt don't do it, you may overshadow everyone else and that equals less fun allaround.
You'r DM is right you'r to powerful compared to the rest of the group.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magikot 05-02-07, 03:39 AM	...and we haven't even started the game!! Now, I know I optimize my characters (some say to the point of powergaming), but here's what happened: Last friday the DM got all 5 of the players together for a character creation process. Knowing that the DM did not have the Unearthed Arcana I brought a copy of mine and informed him I would like to play a gestalt Hum N Sor/Wiz. He read through the gestalt section and ok'ed it. After rolling and assigning my abilities (10, 13, 15, 16, 12, 18) and buying skills and feats (Sribe Scroll - free for Wiz, Combat Casting - lvl 1 feat, Toughness - bonus human), he told us we started with maximum gold for our class and were playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. I instantly chose the package from Halruaa that gives four 1st lvl scrolls (Identify x2, Grease, Enlarge Person), and two 2nd lvl scrolls (Knock, Invisibility). After purchasing my starting equipment I had enough gold left over to also purchase a potion of cure light wounds and employ a 1st lvl warrior henchman NPC for 1 week of game time. My Sor 1st level spells are Magic Missile and Mage Armor, and my 1st level Wiz spells known are Ray of Enfeeblement (prepared), True Strike (prepared), Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, and Summon Monster 1. Skills are Spellcraft, Concentration and Knowledge (Arcana) Maxed out, and 2 points each (for 1 rank) in the following cross class skills: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Search. After handing in my character for review and approval from the DM he looked it over, I've been told I'm too powerful for a level 1 character, despite everything being purchased within the rules that were ok'ed by him. I have until Friday to find a way to tone my character down and the only other way I'd want to play him is from Sembia (I think that's the one) to recieve an extra 300 starting gold but I'm afraid that would make me too powerful as well. Or I can change his physical stats around to 10, 15, 13 or 15, 10, 13 and get myself a morning star to play with (which sounds kind of fun...) The thing is, I don't see him as being too powerful. My stats are good, yes - but I'm 100% reliant on my spell casting. My trusty dagger isn't going to be doing me much good after level 1. I have the second highest hit points in the group (9) but I sort of need them to survive to second level... Any advice on what I can do?
adgramaine 05-02-07, 04:16 AM	Here's the problem... there's not much you can do unless everyone in the group is playing gestalt. Now, I didn't see anything to that point in your OP, but if the group is already doing this, then I'm really not sure what to tell you without knowing what everyone else in the group will be playing. But if you are the only one who made a gestalt character, then there's only two options at this point, and I'm afraid that would be to make a non-gestalt character, or convince the DM to let all the players run using these same rules. Not everyone likes Gestalt, and it does lend to power-gaming. But if your DM is up for the challenge, and your other players are savvy for it, then I wish you luck in what is sure to be a great over-the-top game. Otherwise, make a archivist and play him to level three or four before multi-classing into wizard... then start looking at the mystic theurge. It's about the closest thing you can get to what seems to be your original character concept. Either way, I have to admit I have a morbid curiosity as to how this pans out for you. Just take everything said here and at the table with a grain of salt. And good luck, either way. :D
Redclock_the_Untimely 05-02-07, 04:26 AM	The big no no is if you are the only gestalt character in an otherwise normal campaign. Not knowing what books are available to you I offer this advice. The Ultimate Magus class from Complete Mage is similar to what you are doing while less powerful in many ways but more so in others. Other than that, your character is not overpowered and Toughness usually weakens characters in the long run as improved toughness (Complete Warrior) grows with the character and Craft Wondrous Item + Amulet of Health = better than improved toughness. Regarding spending, I don't know how much gold you started with, you said max, but level 2 scrolls cost 150gp each and no starting class can afford one, much less two and still afford starting equipment. Max level one starting gold for any class is 200gp by RAW. Finally, hiring the NPC was a bit much, well within the rules, but a bit much. Then again, it's your character, not mine so whatever is fun and still within the rules is fine by me.
Yokomohoyo 05-02-07, 04:30 AM	Again since nothing was mentioned about the rest of the party, we dont know if everyone in your game is playing gesalt or not. If they are then try getting a LA of 2 or 3 wich will weaken you a bit or try mixing other classes. Now if their not playing gesalt characters then all I have to say is hell yeah your character is overpowered. Remember a gesalt is like playing two (2) characters in one. You will have but one option in this case... Play a non-gesalt.
magikot 05-02-07, 04:46 AM	Two of the other players are playing +1 LA characters (a tiefling rogue and a fighter with a race from Races of Stone), the other 2 are playing a human cleric and a human bard. I think I will look into the ultimate magus suggestion. The DM has the book so I'll need to borrow it thursday to remake. @Redclock: I started with the max gold available to a wizard following RAW, but in Forgotten Realms there is a starting package for characters from Halruaa that gives you four 1st level and two second level scrolls for free.
Shadowhowler 05-02-07, 06:40 AM	I started with the max gold available to a wizard following RAW, but in Forgotten Realms there is a starting package for characters from Halruaa that gives you four 1st level and two second level scrolls for free. So, I take it your a Halruaan wizard? Halruaan wizards ARE the shizzle, but even so... Gestalt characters should only be played if everyone is playing them. It specificly SAYS this in the discription for Gestalt characters... so I'm guessing both you and your DM didn't read much. :( How are the other two playing LA+1 characters at first level also? I'm currious how they worked that. The game sounds funky.
Luis_Dragunov 05-02-07, 07:32 AM	Two of the other players are playing +1 LA characters (a tiefling rogue and a fighter with a race from Races of Stone), the other 2 are playing a human cleric and a human bard. Well, there's your problem right there - and noone's to blame but your DM. I suppose he knows how to handle, at least, Level Adjustments so I guess the human cleric and the human bard are lvl2 and the +1LA characters are lvl1. And then you are the gestalt character. The problem is, gestalt is really tricky to put a level adjustment on. It isn't a template and it's not fair to say you're doubly powerful because, no matter what abilities you got, you still have, as standard, one move action and one standard action per round to use all that. Solution? Ask your DM to make everyone a gestalt or drop it.
Callista 05-02-07, 08:37 AM	Yeah, you're too powerful... what's worse, a couple of your fellow players' characters aren't powerful enough. Talk to the DM about allowing those two people without LAs to take a second level... then you and they can start at 2nd level, non-gestalt. That should match you up to the +1 LA people, with the overall effect being a 2nd level party. D&D is no fun when your character's out of balance, trust me. I once played a 20th level mystic theurge for whom I'd rolled (18,18,18, 16, 14,10) in an otherwise mostly nonmagical level 20 party... at that level, magic really shines, and the good stats didn't help either. Basically, the DM had to pick things that would kill the others in order to challenge me; and he was inexperienced with high level campaigns on top of it. So the campaign lasted only one session; we went back to our usual 10th-level stuff after that. Even out the characters' power levels, or it won't be any fun.
daggeroflath 05-02-07, 08:50 AM	Any advice on what I can do? Well most of the issues have already been raised by the others here. Basically your DM is inexperienced and you've either made some mistakes or deliberately pulled the wool over his eyes. Gestalt is a campaign option, not an individual character option. Unless your DM knows what he's doing (in which case he'll ask this himself most likely) it is not appropriate to bring a book along that he doesn't have and ask to play a character from it. Convention dictates that the appropriate way of doing this is to lend the DM the book for a week and get his approval after a week of study. If you are unwilling to make the book available to the DM at any time he wishes, for as long as he needs, then you aren't entitled to use anything from it. The DM must know the rules you're using, otherwise it's not fair on either of you. He'll keep being surprised by your abilities and you'll be annoyed by the frequent misunderstandings since he doesn't actually know those rules. I'm a fan of character-optimisation, but you might want to cut down a little, just while everyone catches their footing. Maybe you could teach the other players and the DM a few of the tricks of the trade. That way next time, you can optimize to your heart's content and know that everyone else can keep up. Hope this helps.
Clawhound 05-02-07, 09:07 AM	In addition to everything else, drop your NPC. Most first level characters should not have NPCs. I don't know how you are getting 2nd level scrolls at first level. Those are 150 gp each. You list 400 gp of wealth, AND have a hireling. That is way too much money for a first level character.
Morwen 05-02-07, 11:24 AM	As for the hireling NPC: If he is a part of the group, he will get an equal share of experience as the rest of you (meaning you're splitting XP 6-ways instead of the usual 5-ways). I would drop him, if I were you :)
Ninja_Sensei 05-02-07, 12:44 PM	My input goes along with the "if you're the only gestalt PC, then you'll most likely have to make a singel class character" idea. My suggestion is to start as either a wizard or sorcerer (I'd suggest wizard), multiclass in the other, and look toward the Ultimate Magus prestige class in the Complete Mage book. It allows some progression in both prepared and spontaneous classes as you go forward, along with swapping spells from list to list (sort of ... I'm simplifying, but I'm at the office and don't have access to the book ... OH! How I wish for PDF versions of all the books!!!!). Other than that, or even after that for a bit, Mystic Theurge would also work I guess. PS> I like the idea of taking a hrieling as 1st Level equipment. :)
AtmaWeapon 05-02-07, 08:37 PM	I don't know how you are getting 2nd level scrolls at first level. Those are 150 gp each. You list 400 gp of wealth, AND have a hireling. That is way too much money for a first level character. This has been answered many times. But, for clarification since I know there are probably not a lot of people with access to the rules, here is the answer, yet again. In the Forgotten Realms rules, each region of the world has favored races/classes. If you begin as one of those combinations of race, class, and region, you are allowed to select 1 option from a list of "extra" gear that corresponds to that region. For example, some regions grant potions, some grant scrolls, and some grant masterwork arms and armor. This is given to your PC at no cost as a "perk" for making a race/class/region combo that fits into the overall feel of the Realms, thus helping FR feel more like FR Secondly, as has been stated, either the whole campaign is gestalt or none of it is. There is no way to make a gestalt character work in a group of normal PCs. You will always be more powerful, more capable, and thus more "the focus" of the campaign. This is no fun for the other players. Your DM was right to turn this character away. As for Tieflings and Aasimar... a tiefling in a party of 1st level characters isn't unbalancing. They are barely worthy of thier level adjustment, especially if you're using rolled stats. And scrap the NPC. It's supposed to be about your characters, not who you employ.
Dragoloth 05-02-07, 09:08 PM	I've a gestalt campaign, and they are definately at least cr 2 ahead. Gestalt is more planning and work for a DM. Some classes were not meant for gestalt, besides the obvious PrC's that already mix classes. If the whole party isn't gestalt don't do it, you may overshadow everyone else and that equals less fun allaround. You'r DM is right you'r to powerful compared to the rest of the group.