Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LiamDeclan 12-07-05, 02:40 PM	Now how many times have you heard a DM say that you need to kill another player character? In his view of my character (and I am in agreement with this) who just turned LE from NE and basically bound myself with a Devil. I would have killed off any other NPC that has given me as much grief and attacks against my character already. This PC has: turned me in for crimes, sold me out again to my opponents to bungle my mission against them, has cast spells with me in the area of effect and has attacked me once. Every NPC so far that has caused me grief or pain has died by my hands or has died as a result of my actions to have revenge. So far I haven't tried to kill this PC because he is in our group and I held back for Out of Game reasons. My DM is saying that we really need to start playing in-character and quit bringing knowledge and stuff to the table that shouldn't be in the game. We agree with him and have been trying a lot better at doing this. By all rights if this PC was an NPC I would have killed him by now. I talked it over with my friend and helped him make a new character to bring in to the game after I will kill his other one. He is okay with it and is going to try to kill me as well if I attack. I have another character made in case he manages to do so. I wanted to tell him first so he would understand and have the chance to make a new one. He is going to act in character about the whole thing and not tell the other players he knew before hand.
Illion the Red 12-07-05, 02:48 PM	That's the price you pay for playing an evil character... Had you played a good character, you'd have to put up with all kinds of other stuff, though. I agree with your DM about keeping out-of-game information and actions out-of-game. Mind you, I'd never DM such a game, but that's just me...evil PCs usually turn into NPCs real fast.
loaba 12-07-05, 02:50 PM	Okay, you asked for opinions. I would never encourage PKing in any game that I am involved in. Whether it be as a player or DM, I abhor that kind of thing. I guess I just really subscribe to Gygax's idea that this is a cooperative game where the players work together to acheive some common end or goal. What is your DM hoping to achieve here? Does he think this will add some sort of much needed realism? How many players are in your party and what are their alignments? Are you the only Evil in a party of non-Evils?
Murrdox 12-07-05, 02:52 PM	That's really cool that you and your friend/co-player have worked this out, and made second characters, depending on who dies! I'm sure there are lots of other DMs out there who wish that OTHER players who have characters in conflict with each other would be able to resolve things so nicely! I especially like that you're not letting the other players in on what is happening. Who knows? One or more of them might join the fight against you or with you! Should be an interesting playing session.
LiamDeclan 12-07-05, 03:06 PM	Oh the next game will be interesting. We have a party of 4 anyway and last time 2 others couldn't make it to the session. We opted to go ahead without them and made jokes about how our 2 characters couldn't get along and were probably going to kill each other. I solved the sub-plot mission and managed to make a deal with a Devil to get our Main mission accomplished as well. In making this deal with the Devil I bound my soul to him (not really knowing it was my soul though) and agreed to work with him to further evil throughout the realms. I did this because #1. I freed him accidentally from a Tiamat imposed prison which she wanted him to stay forever and when he was released, In my head I heard Tiamat's threat of "wherever I go her followers will know the Wrath and hatred she has for me" so strength in numbers was my deciding factor on serving him. #2 He had a Scepter that I needed to finish another mission we had #3 He had the power to take me to where a monster was hiding that would allow me to finish the sub-adventure that was linked to the Scepter mission. So now I am charged with recruiting others to my cause, which is to oppose Tiamat in all ways possible and to tempt others to do evil. This is where my DM really wants me to Roleplay very well and get the other guys in group to convert to evil willingly or just by the actions I can possibly get them to do. The PC that I am going to kill won't convert willingly becuase of the classes that he has and if I get him to do it unwillingly he will lose a bunch of class abilities that make him very useful. So if they can't join us they will die.
loaba 12-07-05, 03:10 PM	^So it's to be an all-Evil campaign from here on out? What are the alignments of the other two characters, or did the DM just make 'em go "poof" and disappear?
lord_blackfang 12-07-05, 03:18 PM	So you're an evil guy in an otherwise non-evil party? :banghead:
DarknessEternal 12-07-05, 05:20 PM	Sounds like you all parties involved have come to agreeable terms. All in all, it sounds like a successful and fun game/group. This is PK done right.
loaba 12-07-05, 05:36 PM	Sounds like you all parties involved have come to agreeable terms. All in all, it sounds like a successful and fun game/group. This is PK done right. I don't think we'll know of any of that till the OP tells us the status of the missing players and their characters.
Silverthumb128 12-07-05, 05:56 PM	My DM hasn't told me to kill a player, but has helped justify my killing of a player. I'm sorry, but if a Dwarf Cleric/Dwarven Defender is questing for sainthood, don't act evil around him, he's not likely to tolerate it so well.
loaba 12-07-05, 06:00 PM	My DM hasn't told me to kill a player, but has helped justify my killing of a player. I'm sorry, but if a Dwarf Cleric/Dwarven Defender is questing for sainthood, don't act evil around him, he's not likely to tolerate it so well. Which is fine, now tell us about the rest of the party, please.
Zorminster 12-07-05, 06:58 PM	maybe im the only one who caught this: You've killed multiple people yet you just went an alignment change to LAWFUL evil? Erm.... i was under the impression that lawful evil characters were like defense attorneys who know their defendant is guilty. They can't break the law but they use every loophole they can find to abuse the system. mebbe im wrong on this one-
Dragonlover 12-07-05, 07:47 PM	It also works from a 'moral code' standpoint- 'I will kill anyone who follows Pelor' or something similar. The character has a code, and sticks to it, therefore an alignment of lawful is given. Dragonlover
KismetRose 12-08-05, 05:13 AM	Okay, before folks get carried away like they usually do about the whole PC-dares-to-be-evil thing, I've got to say: kudos to you and your friend, Liam. That has got to be the most mature thing I've read on these boards in a long time (of course, I just came from this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=549038), but nevermind). Your DM is making a reality check for the reality that he has established for your group and is trying to let you guys play your characters as they are. While others might decry his decision, it is worthwhile to recognize that this DM seems to have the sort of mature players that most DMs dream about. I mean, c'mon, Liam and his fellow player actually talked! To each other! And they resolved the situation between themselves so that bitterness will, with any luck, be at a minimum! They planned ahead all by themselves to avoid all sorts of nasty out of game trouble. After all of the threads that we see on these boards about folks who won't talk, for whatever reason, this is a breath of fresh air. Good luck to you, Liam, and tell your DM that he's lucky to have players who give half a damn about group coherence, let alone to have players that are willing to work together out of the game like you have.
Rhomphaia 12-08-05, 05:48 AM	I agree with the DM's ruling. The particular character has been intentionally causing your character grief and is therefore in your character's way and you character has no compelling reason to keep him/her around or stick around with the group. Other than just strait attacking the character, you do have another option. Hire an assassin. Risk to you (both during and after the fact) is minimized, and you have the nice perk of not ******* off the other characters in the group. Plus the roleplaying potential of the other characters possibly finding out is good too, but if you plant enough false leads from the assassin, then the search for who hired the killer becomes a wild goose chase which your character will laugh about in private moments.
LiamDeclan 12-08-05, 05:59 AM	maybe im the only one who caught this: You've killed multiple people yet you just went an alignment change to LAWFUL evil? Erm.... i was under the impression that lawful evil characters were like defense attorneys who know their defendant is guilty. They can't break the law but they use every loophole they can find to abuse the system. mebbe im wrong on this one- I was CN before then through other actions became NE. When I was selling my soul to the Devil I was changed to his alignment and told to roleplay like a devil would. To tempt others into evil actions, use the law to further my own gains, frame innocents for my actions and to keep my word when it is given. The other players alignments are CN, CN, and LN (who should be LE at the least).
LiamDeclan 12-08-05, 06:03 AM	I agree with the DM's ruling. The particular character has been intentionally causing your character grief and is therefore in your character's way and you character has no compelling reason to keep him/her around or stick around with the group. Other than just strait attacking the character, you do have another option. Hire an assassin. Risk to you (both during and after the fact) is minimized, and you have the nice perk of not ******* off the other characters in the group. Plus the roleplaying potential of the other characters possibly finding out is good too, but if you plant enough false leads from the assassin, then the search for who hired the killer becomes a wild goose chase which your character will laugh about in private moments. Funny thing about hiring an assassin is that I had already done that. I offered my services to this assassin guild leader and would work for free for 2 months if he would Take this PC out. He agreed to those terms and got the PC arrested for crimes that I committed. So his idea of Taking Him Out was to have him imprisoned and out of the way of things. I learned to be more Exact in the wording of a contract from now on.
loaba 12-08-05, 12:46 PM	So why is the Good character even travelling with your party to begin with? Seems to me that this Dwarven defender would have been quit of the party along time ago.
LiamDeclan 12-08-05, 01:31 PM	So why is the Good character even travelling with your party to begin with? Seems to me that this Dwarven defender would have been quit of the party along time ago. He isn't entirely good, he is CN. The classes he has taken are Cleric of Corellon Larethian (which accepts that alignment), the Rauthar PrC from Races of the Wild (which lists absolutely no alignment requirements but DM ruled it so if you turn evil All Elves Consider You AN Enemy of the Elves, instead of a Friend to Elves), and he has 1 level in Champion of Corellon Larethian (also from that same splatbook). So by turning him evil my character gains nothing in the way of a valuable ally becuase he will lose a bunch of class abilities. Also not every action that I have done has been in view of others in the party.
loaba 12-08-05, 01:38 PM	Wait, hold up. You have a Dwarf who took a PrC dedicated to being a champion of THE elven god? And he's not even Good to begin with? He's CN and so should have little to no problem with your ways... :banghead: Okay, I'm done. If Champion of Corellon Larethian doesn't have a racial limit, I don't care. It would in my game. I'm walking away, you kids have fun, cause that's all that really matters...
Gailbraithe 12-08-05, 01:49 PM	Nevermind. Should have read the rest of the thread.
LiamDeclan 12-08-05, 02:22 PM	Wait, hold up. You have a Dwarf who took a PrC dedicated to being a champion of THE elven god? And he's not even Good to begin with? He's CN and so should have little to no problem with your ways... :banghead: Okay, I'm done. If Champion of Corellon Larethian doesn't have a racial limit, I don't care. It would in my game. I'm walking away, you kids have fun, cause that's all that really matters... Okay Where the hell did you come up with that he was a DWARF? At no point anywhere did I say any of the characters races. Just for the record he is a 1/2 elf.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-09-05, 05:23 PM	That's the price you pay for playing an evil character... Only if you ignore the other player's constant attempts to ya know, kill him.
LiamDeclan 12-09-05, 06:36 PM	Just found out that my friend's new character he is going to make when I kill his other off is going to be a Warlock! Now the back-up character I had made was a Warlock. This makes me want to off his new character as well. ;) Just a little jealous is all. Maybe this Could a way my friend is getting back at me for wanting to kill off his old character?
Gworraent 12-09-05, 07:36 PM	I say kill the bastard.
^Graff_EpsilonIX 12-09-05, 10:14 PM	Well, if you want to kill him and you believe that you have a justified reason, why not kill him?
LiamDeclan 12-09-05, 10:31 PM	Well, if you want to kill him and you believe that you have a justified reason, why not kill him? Maybe from now on when my other party members tick me off or screw things up on a mission I will hire contract killers to go after them. :devil:
Talonz 12-10-05, 10:10 PM	PK'ing is very very bad...but when the players agree to it, it can be very very cooool. Let us know how it goes down!
OctoberRaven 12-10-05, 11:09 PM	I completely side against the OP's DM on this one. Your character's motives are yours to control and yours alone, not the DM's. You can decide that your character has an in-game reason to keep that character alive, even if it's evil (for example, if you're a spellcaster, you don't kill him because that means one less meatshield between you and the BB...GGs?) I would never tell a player anything like: "Um, you're not evil anymore because you should have killed the fighter a long time ago." EDIT- Granted, the OP agreed to this, but that still doesn't mean the OP couldn't have justified letting the other PC live if he wanted to.)
smoker 12-10-05, 11:42 PM	Now how many times have you heard a DM say that you need to kill another player character? In his view of my character (and I am in agreement with this) who just turned LE from NE and basically bound myself with a Devil. I would have killed off any other NPC that has given me as much grief and attacks against my character already. This PC has: turned me in for crimes, sold me out again to my opponents to bungle my mission against them, has cast spells with me in the area of effect and has attacked me once. Every NPC so far that has caused me grief or pain has died by my hands or has died as a result of my actions to have revenge. So far I haven't tried to kill this PC because he is in our group and I held back for Out of Game reasons. My DM is saying that we really need to start playing in-character and quit bringing knowledge and stuff to the table that shouldn't be in the game. We agree with him and have been trying a lot better at doing this. By all rights if this PC was an NPC I would have killed him by now. I talked it over with my friend and helped him make a new character to bring in to the game after I will kill his other one. He is okay with it and is going to try to kill me as well if I attack. I have another character made in case he manages to do so. I wanted to tell him first so he would understand and have the chance to make a new one. He is going to act in character about the whole thing and not tell the other players he knew before hand. If I were you, I would have killed off that character ages ago. You're bloody evil! smoker
DarknessEternal 12-11-05, 04:25 AM	If I were you, I would have killed off that character ages ago. You're bloody evil! Evil does not equal homicidal sociopath.
OctoberRaven 12-11-05, 05:06 AM	Evil does not equal homicidal sociopath. I actually agree with Darkness on this one, Being Evil does not always mean you kill someone who looks at you funny.Being Evil can also mean you exploit other sentient beings for your own benefit without killing them. Take a blackmailer for example. If you have an in-game reason not to kill the character, there's no reasion why you *have* to kill them. In fact, it'd be more evil to explot his talents for your benefit for as long as possible.
LiamDeclan 12-11-05, 11:30 AM	Believe me when I say I have exploited this guys abilities. Even so far as to make bluff rolls whenever our party has to hand out gold for some information, food & lodging, and other group supplies. I bluff him into believing I am broke. The DM makes us just roll a d20 and won't say the reason for it and he has copies of our character sheets and a standing note from me whenever asked for cash from this guy or if he is with us when asked for cash by other party members the DM makes the bluff roll. Just about every adventure something happens to my character from the other PC. Be it insults, direct damage, delayed responses causing me damage, not waking party up when he is on guard duty if he hears or sees something weird and so on. This time the DM is right and my character does want to kill him and has wanted to for awhile now. This is going to be the best time to do it. The 2 of us just completed 2 missions ourselves and if I kill him before we get back to the main town I stand to collect the hefty rewards all myself. Plus all of his gold and equipment. My friend and I talked it over and I am going to hire his new character to join the party and help me follow the Devils cause/crusade. Hiring him will consist of giving him back a few items his old character had which I really have no problem with and no use for anyway. I will become the owner of greater bracers of archery, +1 longsword, +1 M.Comp. Longbow, +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 ring of protection, smallest bag of holding and whatever gold he has. I believe he will want the ring, breastplate and bag of holding back. The rest I get to sell for 1/3 of its value. (its 1/3 value in our campaign if it belonged to a dead party member).
smoker 12-11-05, 11:34 AM	Evil does not equal homicidal sociopath. True. For an evil-light game, I think Spike from Buffy is a good approach for an evil character. If someone turned me in, and I was playing an evil character, I would want that character's head. Thus, I said, I would have killed that character ages ago. Read what his character has put up with in the original post. smoker
LiamDeclan 12-11-05, 12:08 PM	In 1 hour from this post I will hopefully be the victor against my fellow party member. :D I should be able to post again about 6 hours from this post on what went down.
smoker 12-11-05, 12:12 PM	In 1 hour from this post I will hopefully be the victor against my fellow party member. :D I should be able to post again about 6 hours from this post on what went down. If you want to be mean, kill the character when the character is asleep. You don't have to roll many dice to do that. Do it when you are on watch. When the other characters ask you why you did it, use the line from Buffy, "Have you forgot? I'm evil." Spike is such a cool character. smoker
LiamDeclan 12-12-05, 01:52 PM	Okay, I was planning on killing the character in his sleep BEFORE we got to any of the local farmers/ranchers homesteads. The problem with this was that the DM was kinda rushing through the wilderness area descriptions and next thing I knew we were at a Farm. The farmer was happy to have us visit and saw us as heroes (becuase we had killed a beast that was destroying local livestock) and let us sleep in his barn. So while we were in the barn I killed the other character in his sleep. To cover my tracks of the farmers finding out that I killed him in his sleep I set the whole barn on fire to try and hide the stab wound on the body. After the corpse was burning pretty good, I started spreading the fire around the barn. I thought it would look good if I started rescuing the livestock in the barn and shouting for help too. We saved about 90% of the ponies and cattle. I gave the farmer some bogus story about leaving to take a **** and came back and the barn was on fire. I gave him 10gp to help him build a new one though. Got back to town and the locals threw a big party in my honor as the beast killer and got paid bunches. Later on that night got into a duel to take over leadership of a Bandit/Rogue band of about 14 npcs. I won the duel and sent them off to set up a guild/headquarters in Suzail. Outfitted them with several thousand gold pieces too. This was all the Devil talking me into taking control of them and financing their opperation for further plots. My friends new character that he made up was hired by me to join my party. He died on our 2nd encounter during the day by failing his Fortitude save twice and getting caught in a grapple and chewed upon. I naturally looted his corpse. We play in the Realms and he had for the 2nd time forgot to worship a God to be able to be ressurected.