Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bruid 06-23-07, 09:15 AM	Our DM has taken a liking to pitting us against evil clerics that happen to have a caster level 5 or more above our HD, and I'm the only player that happens to chaotic(but, of course, I still get snagged when Blasphemy is cast). Our party consists of: Druid 13 Bard 13 Ranger 14 Wizard 14 Rogue 14 We're only working with essentially the Players Handbook and the DMG. I'm the level 13 druid. First off, is there anything my character can do spell-wise to deal with the problems? Second, is there anything I or my party can do tactically to avoid getting destroyed by these spells? (Formations, scouting, spreading out such that the entire team isn't in the radius, any tips on how to make those ideas work out would be great) 1d10 minutes of confusion or paralysis for an entire team is just asking for a TPK, and it's very nearly happened a couple times now. Also, I'd imagine that a lot of the easy ways out would be through our wizard, but... our Wizard is a bit new to the game, and extremely inflexible with respect to her prepared spells (insists upon casting fireballs and freezing spheres, and that's about it). The last fight we had left our ranger and rogue babbling incoherently round after round while our wizard was in the process of being cut to pieces, our bard trying to spam suggestion to keep our confused characters from killing each other (when they weren't babbling, but in fact turning on the rest of the party), and my character (the druid) conjuring armies of polar bears to the point of absolute senselessness simply to put meat between the incoming horde of awful and the cringing wizard (who was now out of fireballs and freezing spheres, and knew not what to cast). The imagery was nothing short of fantastic, but the fight itself was horrifying. I'd like our encounters to go, shall we say, a bit more smoothly than that. Any suggestions?
runestar 06-23-07, 10:13 AM	Silence would protect your players, but it screws around with your spellcasters as much as it protects them (arguably more). So it really only benefits the ranger and rogue. See if you can find some means of increasing your HD and lowering his caster lv. For example, bard's inspire greatness gives everyone 2 extra temp HD. Spells like enervation can reduce the cleric's HD, and consequently, his caster lv as well. With a little luck, you just might be able to reduce his caster lv to below your HD. Freedom of movement can counter the paralyzed condition, but daze is much more problematic.
Salla 06-23-07, 10:50 AM	Scrolls of Greater Magic Immunity, read by your rogue and bard using their hopefully high UMD scores. :)
Ubasrawr 06-23-07, 11:38 AM	Wouldn't Protection from Evil also do the job? Immunity to mind effecting spells is one of the better things Protection provides.
Ebonarc 06-23-07, 11:56 AM	Wouldn't Protection from Evil also do the job? Immunity to mind effecting spells is one of the better things Protection provides. Unfortunately, neither of those spells are enchantment (charm) or enchantment (compulsion), the spell types that Protection from Evil blocks. That is one (chaotic, I assume) evil DM. Edit: Forgot to mention something. The spells both have the Sonic descriptor, so anything that blocks that blocks those spells.
Ebonarc 06-23-07, 12:10 PM	I think I may have something. It's only a partial solution, but it is something. Both of those spells allow Spell Resistance. Get your hands on a few Scarabs of Protection (page 266 of the DMG). They grant SR 20, which, for your level, means it won't be all that useful, but it at least forces the DM to make some caster level checks.
DrMorganes 06-23-07, 01:23 PM	First up, stay out of the spell's effective range. Blasphemy effects everything within 40' of the caster. Next, counterspell. Your DM has fallen into the trap of using what works. (We won't go into the brokenness of continually using a BBEG that's FIVE levels above the average party level.) For your druid, this may require taking Improved Counterspell as a feat (which doesn't help you now). Review the ins and outs of the Silence spell. Specifically, Silence doesn't have to be cast on a creature, or even on an object. You can cast it on a point in space, which works well in cramped quarters. No save is allowed vs its effect when not cast directly on a creature. Casting Silence on a flying, Invisible familiar (or Nature's Ally!) may be a perfect counter.
Sunic_Flames 06-23-07, 02:09 PM	First up, stay out of the spell's effective range. Blasphemy effects everything within 40' of the caster. Next, counterspell. Your DM has fallen into the trap of using what works. (We won't go into the brokenness of continually using a BBEG that's FIVE levels above the average party level.) For your druid, this may require taking Improved Counterspell as a feat (which doesn't help you now). Review the ins and outs of the Silence spell. Specifically, Silence doesn't have to be cast on a creature, or even on an object. You can cast it on a point in space, which works well in cramped quarters. No save is allowed vs its effect when not cast directly on a creature. Casting Silence on a flying, Invisible familiar (or Nature's Ally!) may be a perfect counter. x levels higher =/= x caster levels higher. Bead of Karma = +4 CL, Ankh of Ascension = burn a spell and cast a spell within 1 round of equal or lower level at +4 CL, orange ioun stone = +1 CL...
SmiloDan 06-23-07, 02:45 PM	Ready actions to counterspell and attack him when he casts, forcing a Concentration check. You'll need to do a mess of damage, probably, just to force it....I'm assuming the BBEG has a Concentration check of about +25, so you'll need to do about 45 points after DR, SR, energy resistances, and saves for half. Maybe summon something to grapple the BBEG? Teach the wizard Evard's Black Tentacles? Does the Bard have Break Enchantment or Song of Freedom yet? (I forget what level they get that). Use ranged attacks on him, even if you all have to Dim Door or Transport via plants to do so. Wildshape into a plant; you become a plant, so you gain plant traits, so you become immune to mind-affecting stuff. Cast Silence on a tanglefoot bag and hit the BBEG with it? Or try a thunderstone?
gimby 06-23-07, 04:37 PM	Remember, Silence hedges out spells with the Sonic descriptor (like Blasphemy) - so arm yourselves with a few rods of Metamagic:Silent and cast Silence on your own party before getting into these fights.
Radiant117 06-23-07, 05:05 PM	To sum it up: [spell format: (<saving throw>, <spell resistance: allowed or not>)] Close range = 25ft + 5 ft/level, so they still reach farther than Blasphemy and Word. The wizard - make him read this thread, use a folding chair if necessary. Enervation (no, yes) - a great choice. A quickened-true-strike-laced enervation is even better, though clerics *usually* do not boast a high touch AC. Close range. Greater Spell Immunity is the way to go, but I see you have no clerics, so you have to buy scrolls. Silence [cast by bard] (radius is 20ft, there's an error in the table): cast it on a couple of rocks or other projectiles, get your noncasters carry them. Make initiative sequence work for you: ranger throws rock at bastard (aim at the floor, it has a DEX of 0 and some grand size penalties, so he'll hit) - wizard grapples (Bigby's Grasping Hand (no, yes) or Evard's Black Tentacles(no, no)) - rogue has fun. Line up the corridor with Silence-enchanted (no, no - see text) rocks. (Again, initiative sequence is important). Sounds like fun. Wait, it doesn't sound at all, because we're in a Silence zone now. Bad attempt at a joke here. Anyway, throw 'em. Stay out of the spam area. Make him not want to come near. Put Evard's Black Tentacles (no, no) in the corridor to better explain your intentions. Blast him with fireballs for great justice. If things look grim, wall-of-force the party off. Beware of Dimensional Dooring away, because confused party members can choose to roll saves vs DD and succeed. Trap him in a Resilient Sphere (Ref, yes) to get extra time. Warning: can be dispelled. If you don't mind spending like 1.5k gp, Forcecage (no, no) him (the all-inclusive version), rearrange your initiative sequence however you like, then fight. (Cannot be dispelled.) Both spells are close-range. Have Greater Arcane Sight on. That way, you'll see how he's buffed. Clerics usually go well-buffed, but in that case, forget Greater Dispel Magic. You don't stand a chance. Also, if the grappling trick works, future clerics will have Freedom of Movement. Don't try dispelling that. For everyone: What about disrupting his spellcasting? If you have advantage in numbers, one party member missing his action means nothing if the enemy misses his own. Make the wizard drop fireballs on the cleric as a readied action. BTW, the DM should say whether you actually manage to deal some damage after the resistances and such are taken into account or not. The descriptions in the DMG will help you to support this claim. How about "If he starts casting a spell with a verbal component, I throw a rock"? Won't. Fail. Ever. Unless you run out of ensorcelled projectiles, that is. The druid: Flamestrike to disrupt spellcasting (Ref 1/2, yes). Firestorm (Ref 1/2, yes) for same purpose. Watch him try to roll concentration. Don't forget Fire Seeds (ranged touch: none + splash: Ref 1/2, no). Wall of Stone away in case of emergency. No, the wall cannot be dispelled. Use Spellstaff to store an extra spell. In natural caverns, abuse Transmute Rock to Mud (Ref half, no) and Transmute Mud to Rock (Ref negates, no). If you're pressed into melee when you don't want to, cast Antilife Shell (no, yes). If you want to, Wildshape into something cool. Wildshaping into a plant won't help, because Blasphemy and the like are not mind-affecting. They are "just sonic". (Plugging your ears also won't help.) Don't changestaff yourself a treant unless *absolutely* necessary. You'll lose, like, a month of work for practically nothing. The bard: He's the one who's going to cast Silence. Use magic items. Support the party. Inspire greatness. Throw rocks. The ranger: fight! Disrupt spellcasting as necessary. Throw rocks. The rogue: fight! Disrupt spellcasting as necessary. Sneak attack when the cleric is grappled. Throw rocks. Note on projectiles: according to RAW, if a projectile hits, it's considered destroyed or useless. Do not use it on arrows without getting the DM's permission first. Spellcasters can also carry rocks just in case. To cast a spell, drop the rock (throwing is an attack, dropping is a free action), move away (radius = 20 ft, your speed should be 30 ft.), cast your spell. Rocks themselves are improvised weapons, therefore attack is penalized and range increment is 10 ft (max range = 50 ft). Use slings (range 50 ft) if necessary (you, as a druid, are proficient in them, only the wizard is not) and cast silence on bullets. If everything fails: Wizard casts Antimagic field and approaches cleric. Ranger greets cleric with a warm hug (no Freedom of Movement now). Rogue stabs. You can also get some metamagic rods of silent spell. Apply as necessary. (Myself, I don't like metamagic rods. They feel broken.)
Kobold_Avenger 06-24-07, 11:05 PM	Ok first, as a group insist that you have gained a bunch of levels from fighting foes with a Cr 5 higher then your average party level. Second, insist that the gods transform your party into Teriminators from the 3rd movie.. Say they are 'proper ecounter level' inevitibles or something. Step 3, kill a bunch of these clerics. Step4, imform your DM that you did this because he spammed clerics. Ask him to restart the campaign and put you against proper foes for your level. If this fails.... It's Hammer Gun time..
runestar 06-24-07, 11:14 PM	Ok first, as a group insist that you have gained a bunch of levels from fighting foes with a Cr 5 higher then your average party level. His cr does not need to be 5 higher. A lv13 cleric can use karma bead and ankh of ascension to get a +8 to caster lv. Evil domain adds another +1. And that is by definition, a fair fight for the whole party.;)
Kobold_Avenger 06-25-07, 12:00 AM	Blast!! That means that Succubi Pcs are even more screwed.. Still that would be cool idea... Playing as a group of Terminators.. For a seasson or too.
Sphere 06-25-07, 01:11 AM	I vote for Silence. It has the side benefit of messing with a bunch of other spells that the cleric can cast. Get a flask of Sovereign Glue, cast Silence on the glue, then throw it on the cleric. Or better yet cast it on pebble, give the pebble to the rogue, and have the rogue slip it into one of the clerics pockets.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-25-07, 01:13 AM	If your wiz is out of spells, then a scroll of Rope Trick is the way to go. I personally do not much bother with direct damage spells like fireball or freezing sphere, except as a room clearer to deal with a bunch of time-wasting mooks. Fighters are better at handing out hitpoint damage. Wizards do stuff that other classes cannot do. Consider ray of stupidity, feeblemind, wall of force. Before trying these on the BBEG cleric, gimp his SR and will save, somehow - Assay Resistance is your friend.
danielinthewolvesden 06-25-07, 01:31 AM	Freedom of Movement helps with the paralysis. Could not the bard couner-song?
Solo_Phoenix 06-25-07, 01:51 AM	Or better yet cast it on pebble, give the pebble to the rogue, and have the rogue slip it into one of the clerics pockets. I recommend explaining the plan to the rogue first, so as to avoid some difficult pantomime situations mid-battle.
runestar 06-25-07, 02:13 AM	Could not the bard couner-song? Countersong only works on spells with saves, since all it does is let you substitute your perform check for the players' relevant save. Blasphemy has no save, and so countersong would have no benefit.:( Damage spells is not a bad option. Ready an action to lob a spell at the cleric when he starts casting blasphemy and hopes he fails his concentration check. Sr might be tricky. If the cleric can boost his caster lv to cast blasphemy, this means he can also boost his caster lv for a variety of other effects, such as spell resistance. Feeblemind might work, if you can somehow punch through his high will save. Have rary's telepathic bond cast on the whole party, if you are worried about the problems of communication in silence.:)