Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narris 03-20-07, 01:12 PM	is too short to have 10 foot reach. He read my character sheet saying that the minotaur is 8 ft tall and insists that 8 ft tall is too short to have 10 ft long arms.
Brehon 03-20-07, 01:17 PM	Does your DM think that 4 foot tall characters are too short to have 5 foot reach? Because by his reasoning, dwarves wouldn't work either. Simply put, your DM is changing the rules. Minotaurs have 10' reach. If he doesn't want them to, it's his prerogative. But he should have informed you of the change prior to character creation.
kelvinaw273 03-20-07, 01:18 PM	He's right, unless you employ a reach weapon to increase your reach that's perfectly reasonable. A Minotaur typically employs a great axe or similar long hafted weapon that would do just this, which is why it may be listed as greater in the MM. I'd have to look it up but on the face of it restricting your reach with a none-reach weapon to 5' seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Evil DM Mk3 03-20-07, 01:20 PM	No they do not have 10ft long arms. They have arms that are long enough, with leaning of the torso and swinging, to reach somthing about 6ft away. Thats right, 6ft, becasue they only need to reach the second square, not the far side of that square.
Bat 03-20-07, 01:26 PM	I believe (although I'm not entirely certain) that your armspan (the distance between the tip of both you middle fingers when you are stretching your arms straight out to your sides, perpendicular to your legs) is exactly equal to your height. I could be wrong, but I remember seeing that somewhere. If we assume that to be true, we can assume it will hold true for most humanoids, and that means that an 8 foot tall's minotaur's arms would each be under four foot long - you have to factor in room for the chest too. Now, I don't know if a Minotaur is a large creature or not, and I don't have my books here, but, given the way D&D does combat, I'm leaning to say he does have 10 foot reach. Look at it this way - we'll say each arm is 3'6" long. That means that if he stood in the exact center of a 5-foot square (I know D&D doesn't work that way, but bear w/me for argument's sake), he could reach out and touch somthing 3.5 feet away - that puts him one foot into the next square. Factor in weapon length (and if he is 8 foot tall, he probably will have a 4-foot long longsword), and it is feasible he could attack something 10 feet away. But, we all know D&D doesn't take any of this into account. You take up an entire 5-foot square, regardless of if you are standing in the exact center or on the edge, and you can't get reach unless you are large or larger, or have a special ability, feat or weapon that so allows it.
runestar 03-20-07, 01:27 PM	The minotaur entry in the MM clearly states they get 10-ft reach. Reach is not just a function of how long your arms are. Anyways, your dm can argue till the cows come home. But he is clearly houseruling if he does claim that they do not get reach.
The_Ditto 03-20-07, 01:27 PM	He's right, unless you employ a reach weapon to increase your reach that's perfectly reasonable. A Minotaur typically employs a great axe or similar long hafted weapon that would do just this, which is why it may be listed as greater in the MM. I'd have to look it up but on the face of it restricting your reach with a none-reach weapon to 5' seems perfectly reasonable to me. *psst* A great axe is not a reach weapon ... :tiphat:
Dragonteuthis 03-20-07, 01:27 PM	He's right, unless you employ a reach weapon to increase your reach that's perfectly reasonable. A Minotaur typically employs a great axe or similar long hafted weapon that would do just this, which is why it may be listed as greater in the MM. I'd have to look it up but on the face of it restricting your reach with a none-reach weapon to 5' seems perfectly reasonable to me. No, it's not. It's arbitrarily changing the rules for no given reason. He doesn't think it's realistic that a minotaur has 10' reach; what the heck does he think of the wizard? Sure, if he makes a house rule that large tall creatures don't have reach anymore, that's reasonable and can be worked with. But to arbitrarily change one race for no good reason is rather unreasonable. I suspect the DM let the player make a minotaur without realizing how powerful minotaurs are, and instead of discussing it with the player, is now childishly and randomly assigning nerfs in an attempt to cover his mistake. That's just an assumption of course. I could be wrong.
Regwon 03-20-07, 01:32 PM	He's right, unless you employ a reach weapon to increase your reach that's perfectly reasonable. A Minotaur typically employs a great axe or similar long hafted weapon that would do just this, which is why it may be listed as greater in the MM. I'd have to look it up but on the face of it restricting your reach with a none-reach weapon to 5' seems perfectly reasonable to me. this is wrong. as a bipedal large creature i minotaur has 10ft reach as standard. to threaten a square 10ft away a creature would really need to have at least 5ft arms if you think about it. a creature doesnt have to be able to reach to the otherside of a square to threaten it, just to its edge. otherwise you wouldnt even have 5ft reach as i very much doubt your arms are 5ft long. @OP: This really shouldnt bother you unless you or one of the other players are playing a minotaur, in which case i would ask the DM why he is imposing such stringent limits on your character and suggest that if a large creature cannot have 10ft reach then medium creatures should not have 5ft reach. if not i suggest that you should probably be happy that when you charge the minotaur that it doesnt smack you in the face with a greatsword for his AoO.
bob_the_great 03-20-07, 01:57 PM	I like DM's who err on the side of not changing rules, and this is exactly why. when you don't you end up making silly and unwarrented rule changes. have your DM swing his arm in place, reaching as far as he can while keeping his balance. now tie a rope around his waist, attaching the other end to a car (giving him a little slack to lean with), and ask him to do it again. amazingly, his reach extends when anchored because he doesn't have to worry about falling forward. then explain to him that a centaur has control over his anchor and can use it to better effect than he (your DM) can use the car. finally, end by telling him that the problem was never realism but instead his own ignorance. If he insists on nerfing you and you want to play anyway the least he should do is lower the LA by 1 for removing your reach.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-20-07, 02:22 PM	Demand that he either cut the LA down to +1 or the HD down to 5 HD. Taking away reach takes away many of the advantages the Minotaur needs to be balanced. And as it is, the Minotaur is probably one of the most well-balanced monsters out there.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-20-07, 02:30 PM	is too short to have 10 foot reach. He read my character sheet saying that the minotaur is 8 ft tall and insists that 8 ft tall is too short to have 10 ft long arms. The minotaur is a large creature. IIRC all large humanoid creatures have 10' reach (or better).
PhaedrusXY 03-20-07, 02:30 PM	Did he lower your level adjustment accordingly? Reach is worth a +1 LA by itself.
Toloran 03-20-07, 03:07 PM	I like DM's who err on the side of not changing rules, and this is exactly why. when you don't you end up making silly and unwarrented rule changes. have your DM swing his arm in place, reaching as far as he can while keeping his balance. now tie a rope around his waist, attaching the other end to a car (giving him a little slack to lean with), and ask him to do it again. amazingly, his reach extends when anchored because he doesn't have to worry about falling forward. then explain to him that a centaur has control over his anchor and can use it to better effect than he (your DM) can use the car. finally, end by telling him that the problem was never realism but instead his own ignorance. If he insists on nerfing you and you want to play anyway the least he should do is lower the LA by 1 for removing your reach. Actually, if he still insists on nerfing it that is when you drive off with the car while he is still attached :)
Thubby 03-20-07, 03:49 PM	most creatures dont have their reach's worth of arm. humans dont have 5 ft arms. but if you read the unarmed combat section, it states that you provoke the Aoo becasue you have to get realy close. weapons change that, as a sword can be anywhere from 3 ft(L sword) to 7 feet (G sword). minotaurs have lang arms for their body, and claws. in addition, assuming you stand on the edge of your space, you only have to reach about 7 feet to get to the other guy.
Witch 03-20-07, 03:51 PM	Tell him that the reach is part of the minotaur's ECL. If he doesn't lower the ECL, he should allow you to reroll.
jadehawk 03-20-07, 03:54 PM	Well, it sounds like this point has been beaten to death, but I love beating the crap out of corpses. Having 5' or 10' or whatever' reach does not mean that your appendages extend out that distance. *Egads* My arms are not 5' long; that's just rediculous. Reach indicates how MANY 5 FOOT SQUARES a character can attack into, counting a lunging move (think that your foot may be at the very edge of your 5' square. Notice that having 5' reach means you can hit something right in front of you or 5 feet away, as the square is right in line with yours and as much as 5' away. If you had 10' arms you should be able to hit something at least in the 15' square beyond you, as you have bypassed the first two squares with arm length alone. Of course, this is not how the rules work though. Typically, reach is determined by size and adjusted when applicable (for unusual appendages or what have you)...While the Minotaur is on the short side of large, it certainly isn't a candidate for a lack of reach. Now if he had stubby appendages on top of that, well then sure, but that is not the case.
Crimson_Concerto 03-20-07, 05:57 PM	According to the Monster Manuel and all other relative RAW, Minotaurs are Large creatures and have 10-foot reach. If the DM says otherwise, he is wrong. If the DM wants to house rule it, he should lower the minotaurs ECL accordingly. Point your DM to this thread, please, and have him read the responses. One or two of them are wrong as well, but most of us have actually looked at the creature before. You payed, what was it, 6 racial HD and a +2 LA for this thing (too lazy to check, but I'm pretty sure that's right)? That's a level 8 character right there, and removing stuff from it without compensation is just screwing you over.