DM unwilling to really put PCs in danger [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM unwilling to really put PCs in danger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saragon42
10-19-07, 05:16 PM I'm in a game with some very good friends of mine, full of good roleplaying, lots of fun, and no small amount of powergaming. My only concern is that despite being seventh level PCs, we have never once been put in a position by our DM that is genuinely dangerous. Except for one encounter at first level -- where I pushed my sorceror's luck pretty hard -- none of the party members have dropped below 25% of their hit points. In short, the game is safe.

I personally would like a little more danger in the campaign; after all, while I'm enjoying playing this character, at this point we have no real chance of losing any encounter we're in -- we have too many advantages and always end up with NPC support or conveniently-sized groups of foes. It's certainly safe for the ego, but it lacks that thrill that really ties a player to the game. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how to suggest it. Our DM is a great storyteller but really isn't great at math or strategy (whereas the player group is either very good at lateral thinking or crazy enough to refuse the obvious methods available to us). I'm afraid I'm going to come off as snobbish. Any suggestions? I know it sounds crazy to be asking the DM to make the game harder, but I think we'd all enjoy the game more (and it's not like we lack the resources to get PCs raised from the dead at this point.)
Prator_The_Golden
10-19-07, 06:10 PM It's not as hard as you might think. Just explain your concerns to the DM, and ask that he/she/it occasionally throw in a monster or two with a CR that's three or four above your party's level, or to throw in a dragon. No hard math involved, if it's only one monster, and if that monster is tough enough to be a challenge by itself, the minutiae of tactics won't be as big of a concern.
Necroramo
10-20-07, 12:45 AM As a DM who's guilty of this, I just say assure him that he can go all-out, I am always reluctant to kill someone off so that they don't get upset/feel excluded because they can't do anything
metalmayhem80110
10-20-07, 08:59 AM I tend to shy away from killing a pc. I in-fact have a plane where it is hard to die :P

Anyways, danger is still there. I would look at it like this, if you're character is an adventurer. Well I wouldn't waste time on things that I can walk through, stronger things have more loot.

Go find stronger monsters. If your PC looks, he should be able to find.
Nameless-Ronin
10-20-07, 10:56 AM Fine DM you got there, i sometimes think mine wants to kill us off fast.

Makes it fun. He's relative new to being DM, so the guy has some troubles we work out.

I'd suggest, like the others, to ask him to challenge you more. Its cool he's keeping you safe, but not allways. Anyway its fast and effective to just spill the beans. If you dont dare do it face-2-face, write him an email, or an annomynes letter.
DyloniusFunk
10-20-07, 07:04 PM I'm in a game with some very good friends of mine, full of good roleplaying, lots of fun, and no small amount of powergaming. My only concern is that despite being seventh level PCs, we have never once been put in a position by our DM that is genuinely dangerous. Except for one encounter at first level -- where I pushed my sorceror's luck pretty hard -- none of the party members have dropped below 25% of their hit points. In short, the game is safe.

I personally would like a little more danger in the campaign; after all, while I'm enjoying playing this character, at this point we have no real chance of losing any encounter we're in -- we have too many advantages and always end up with NPC support or conveniently-sized groups of foes. It's certainly safe for the ego, but it lacks that thrill that really ties a player to the game. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how to suggest it. Our DM is a great storyteller but really isn't great at math or strategy (whereas the player group is either very good at lateral thinking or crazy enough to refuse the obvious methods available to us). I'm afraid I'm going to come off as snobbish. Any suggestions? I know it sounds crazy to be asking the DM to make the game harder, but I think we'd all enjoy the game more (and it's not like we lack the resources to get PCs raised from the dead at this point.)

Before you go asking the DM to make changes make sure that your not alone on this. You keep saying "we" but are you 100% sure that the res tof the group dosen't like the game the way it is now? Just something to keep in mind.
Shadowhowler
10-21-07, 12:10 AM Before you go asking the DM to make changes make sure that your not alone on this. You keep saying "we" but are you 100% sure that the res tof the group dosen't like the game the way it is now? Just something to keep in mind.

Damn, I was going to make this exact point. :P

Yeah... defenitly check with your fellow players and make sure they share your issue with the 'safe' nature of the game. If they do not, then you asking the DM to change the tone of the game for your enjoyment might be to the detrament of your fellow players enjoyment, which would be bad.
LoneStranger
10-21-07, 12:54 AM There are two ways you can do this.

Method A: you can ask the other players off to the side if they'd like the game to be harder then talk to the DM after a session if most of them agree with you.

Method B: at the end of a session put it out there that you'd like to see some more action and danger in the game, get the opinions of everyone else there, and try to keep it to a civil discussion the entire time.

Method A is the nicer of the two since it doesn't put anyone on the spot, but method B is also a very honest way to deal with it. But like I said before try to keep method B as a conversation, playing the blame game is a great way to kill the campaign.
LFK
10-21-07, 04:47 AM Damn, I was going to make this exact point. :P

Yeah... defenitly check with your fellow players and make sure they share your issue with the 'safe' nature of the game. If they do not, then you asking the DM to change the tone of the game for your enjoyment might be to the detrament of your fellow players enjoyment, which would be bad.

Yep. I enjoy a nice safe game. To me 25% hp is the danger zone. My DM has outright said he doesn't feel an encounter provided a suitable challenge unless a character was reduced to negative hit points.

I can't accurately say what I feel "exciting" combat or what's "challenging" is anymore because encounters vary between fish-in-barrel encounters and "gee, one more bad roll and we're all dead."

I don't like my characters dying, and I don't like overly optimized encounters. I prefer the safety that allows me to do things with style and bravado over being forced to repeatedly go on an all-out burn with only tried-and-true methods.

I prefer challenges that stem from effective resource management (fight 100 Orcs over the period of a day vs. fight one Frost Giant then hide because we can't even afford a run in with an Orc) and pre-planning.

I dislike that "smart strategy" always means "burn the caster first" which translates into "watch my character get picked on fight after fight" or "watch my character helplessly watch the caster get picked on" or "uselessly add cover that makes it harder for both the caster and the enemy to do their job just to have the enemy pull out some trick that ignores me forcing me to helplessly watch the caster get picked on."

I'm tired of fights that involve the line (to the barbarian) "how many rounds until you drop to -30?"

You need to have a good idea of what you consider to be "dangerous." For me it's "approaching unconsciousness." For my GM it's "potential death." For some it's "lost hitpoints." For others it's "party wipe."
Etarnon
11-10-07, 04:05 PM Tell the DM you'd like to see more hard core combat, more danger for the PCs as drama, a life and death struggle, and that you feel perhaps a character's life must be gravely threatened, within the next two scenarios, because it isn't challenging enough for you. Offer yours up, and see what he does.

Good luck, and be careful what you wish for.
wizarddog
11-11-07, 07:43 PM Sometimes you can be put in danger with not real lost of hit points. It might be dangerous to insult the high priest in negotiations for the holy water you will need to stop the undead you will be facing. You won't die in this encounter but you may have a harder time fulfilling your quest. ;)
knightwriter
11-12-07, 10:53 AM When I'm a dm, I am always looking for input from my players. Was the game fun...was it too hard...what parts did you like...that sort of thing. This way I can gage where the majority of the players had fun and cater more that that style of playing.
If your dm is at all receptive, I would just come out and tell him that you would like there to be more of a sense of danger and explain to him, like you did for us, what that entails.
Good luck.
wonlee76
11-12-07, 12:14 PM First you're powergaming which is not a bad thing but it sets up the "base" challenge level of how to challenge your group.

Your DM may not be a big powergamer in which case the bad guys will be less threatening despite whatever their CRs are supposed to be.

One of my suggestions to your DM if this is the reason why the challenges are "safe" is to treat all bad guys as if they were 1 CR lower in making up challenges or in the alternative, powergame up the monsters. Change the feats around. Optimize them. Tack on class levels. Do whatever it takes to make the bad guys a bit more difficult.

The CR system is far from perfect. It requires some DM tweaking depending on the power level of the group and the group's composition. I've designed encounters that ended up being too easy and encounters that ended up being a lot more challenging then expected. Sometimes its due to bad luck/good luck or creative PCs using tactics that I didn't expect.

Ultimately, talk to your DM about this. If he does fear PCs dying, remind him that's why there's a spell called Raise Dead, Ressurection and Reincarnation in the PHB. Sometimes PCs die but in D&D, death isn't permanent. :P

If your DM is the type to fudge dice rolls a lot behind the DM screen, just ask him to cut back on that. I admit as a DM I fudge dice on occasion but usually I reserve fudging to avoid TPKs. If its a situation with several dead PCs but there is at least one PC that survives, I won't bother fudging.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saragon42 10-19-07, 05:16 PM	I'm in a game with some very good friends of mine, full of good roleplaying, lots of fun, and no small amount of powergaming. My only concern is that despite being seventh level PCs, we have never once been put in a position by our DM that is genuinely dangerous. Except for one encounter at first level -- where I pushed my sorceror's luck pretty hard -- none of the party members have dropped below 25% of their hit points. In short, the game is safe. I personally would like a little more danger in the campaign; after all, while I'm enjoying playing this character, at this point we have no real chance of losing any encounter we're in -- we have too many advantages and always end up with NPC support or conveniently-sized groups of foes. It's certainly safe for the ego, but it lacks that thrill that really ties a player to the game. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how to suggest it. Our DM is a great storyteller but really isn't great at math or strategy (whereas the player group is either very good at lateral thinking or crazy enough to refuse the obvious methods available to us). I'm afraid I'm going to come off as snobbish. Any suggestions? I know it sounds crazy to be asking the DM to make the game harder, but I think we'd all enjoy the game more (and it's not like we lack the resources to get PCs raised from the dead at this point.)
Prator_The_Golden 10-19-07, 06:10 PM	It's not as hard as you might think. Just explain your concerns to the DM, and ask that he/she/it occasionally throw in a monster or two with a CR that's three or four above your party's level, or to throw in a dragon. No hard math involved, if it's only one monster, and if that monster is tough enough to be a challenge by itself, the minutiae of tactics won't be as big of a concern.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 12:45 AM	As a DM who's guilty of this, I just say assure him that he can go all-out, I am always reluctant to kill someone off so that they don't get upset/feel excluded because they can't do anything
metalmayhem80110 10-20-07, 08:59 AM	I tend to shy away from killing a pc. I in-fact have a plane where it is hard to die :P Anyways, danger is still there. I would look at it like this, if you're character is an adventurer. Well I wouldn't waste time on things that I can walk through, stronger things have more loot. Go find stronger monsters. If your PC looks, he should be able to find.
Nameless-Ronin 10-20-07, 10:56 AM	Fine DM you got there, i sometimes think mine wants to kill us off fast. Makes it fun. He's relative new to being DM, so the guy has some troubles we work out. I'd suggest, like the others, to ask him to challenge you more. Its cool he's keeping you safe, but not allways. Anyway its fast and effective to just spill the beans. If you dont dare do it face-2-face, write him an email, or an annomynes letter.
DyloniusFunk 10-20-07, 07:04 PM	I'm in a game with some very good friends of mine, full of good roleplaying, lots of fun, and no small amount of powergaming. My only concern is that despite being seventh level PCs, we have never once been put in a position by our DM that is genuinely dangerous. Except for one encounter at first level -- where I pushed my sorceror's luck pretty hard -- none of the party members have dropped below 25% of their hit points. In short, the game is safe. I personally would like a little more danger in the campaign; after all, while I'm enjoying playing this character, at this point we have no real chance of losing any encounter we're in -- we have too many advantages and always end up with NPC support or conveniently-sized groups of foes. It's certainly safe for the ego, but it lacks that thrill that really ties a player to the game. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how to suggest it. Our DM is a great storyteller but really isn't great at math or strategy (whereas the player group is either very good at lateral thinking or crazy enough to refuse the obvious methods available to us). I'm afraid I'm going to come off as snobbish. Any suggestions? I know it sounds crazy to be asking the DM to make the game harder, but I think we'd all enjoy the game more (and it's not like we lack the resources to get PCs raised from the dead at this point.) Before you go asking the DM to make changes make sure that your not alone on this. You keep saying "we" but are you 100% sure that the res tof the group dosen't like the game the way it is now? Just something to keep in mind.
Shadowhowler 10-21-07, 12:10 AM	Before you go asking the DM to make changes make sure that your not alone on this. You keep saying "we" but are you 100% sure that the res tof the group dosen't like the game the way it is now? Just something to keep in mind. Damn, I was going to make this exact point. :P Yeah... defenitly check with your fellow players and make sure they share your issue with the 'safe' nature of the game. If they do not, then you asking the DM to change the tone of the game for your enjoyment might be to the detrament of your fellow players enjoyment, which would be bad.
LoneStranger 10-21-07, 12:54 AM	There are two ways you can do this. Method A: you can ask the other players off to the side if they'd like the game to be harder then talk to the DM after a session if most of them agree with you. Method B: at the end of a session put it out there that you'd like to see some more action and danger in the game, get the opinions of everyone else there, and try to keep it to a civil discussion the entire time. Method A is the nicer of the two since it doesn't put anyone on the spot, but method B is also a very honest way to deal with it. But like I said before try to keep method B as a conversation, playing the blame game is a great way to kill the campaign.
LFK 10-21-07, 04:47 AM	Damn, I was going to make this exact point. :P Yeah... defenitly check with your fellow players and make sure they share your issue with the 'safe' nature of the game. If they do not, then you asking the DM to change the tone of the game for your enjoyment might be to the detrament of your fellow players enjoyment, which would be bad. Yep. I enjoy a nice safe game. To me 25% hp is the danger zone. My DM has outright said he doesn't feel an encounter provided a suitable challenge unless a character was reduced to negative hit points. I can't accurately say what I feel "exciting" combat or what's "challenging" is anymore because encounters vary between fish-in-barrel encounters and "gee, one more bad roll and we're all dead." I don't like my characters dying, and I don't like overly optimized encounters. I prefer the safety that allows me to do things with style and bravado over being forced to repeatedly go on an all-out burn with only tried-and-true methods. I prefer challenges that stem from effective resource management (fight 100 Orcs over the period of a day vs. fight one Frost Giant then hide because we can't even afford a run in with an Orc) and pre-planning. I dislike that "smart strategy" always means "burn the caster first" which translates into "watch my character get picked on fight after fight" or "watch my character helplessly watch the caster get picked on" or "uselessly add cover that makes it harder for both the caster and the enemy to do their job just to have the enemy pull out some trick that ignores me forcing me to helplessly watch the caster get picked on." I'm tired of fights that involve the line (to the barbarian) "how many rounds until you drop to -30?" You need to have a good idea of what you consider to be "dangerous." For me it's "approaching unconsciousness." For my GM it's "potential death." For some it's "lost hitpoints." For others it's "party wipe."
Etarnon 11-10-07, 04:05 PM	Tell the DM you'd like to see more hard core combat, more danger for the PCs as drama, a life and death struggle, and that you feel perhaps a character's life must be gravely threatened, within the next two scenarios, because it isn't challenging enough for you. Offer yours up, and see what he does. Good luck, and be careful what you wish for.
wizarddog 11-11-07, 07:43 PM	Sometimes you can be put in danger with not real lost of hit points. It might be dangerous to insult the high priest in negotiations for the holy water you will need to stop the undead you will be facing. You won't die in this encounter but you may have a harder time fulfilling your quest. ;)
knightwriter 11-12-07, 10:53 AM	When I'm a dm, I am always looking for input from my players. Was the game fun...was it too hard...what parts did you like...that sort of thing. This way I can gage where the majority of the players had fun and cater more that that style of playing. If your dm is at all receptive, I would just come out and tell him that you would like there to be more of a sense of danger and explain to him, like you did for us, what that entails. Good luck.
wonlee76 11-12-07, 12:14 PM	First you're powergaming which is not a bad thing but it sets up the "base" challenge level of how to challenge your group. Your DM may not be a big powergamer in which case the bad guys will be less threatening despite whatever their CRs are supposed to be. One of my suggestions to your DM if this is the reason why the challenges are "safe" is to treat all bad guys as if they were 1 CR lower in making up challenges or in the alternative, powergame up the monsters. Change the feats around. Optimize them. Tack on class levels. Do whatever it takes to make the bad guys a bit more difficult. The CR system is far from perfect. It requires some DM tweaking depending on the power level of the group and the group's composition. I've designed encounters that ended up being too easy and encounters that ended up being a lot more challenging then expected. Sometimes its due to bad luck/good luck or creative PCs using tactics that I didn't expect. Ultimately, talk to your DM about this. If he does fear PCs dying, remind him that's why there's a spell called Raise Dead, Ressurection and Reincarnation in the PHB. Sometimes PCs die but in D&D, death isn't permanent. :P If your DM is the type to fudge dice rolls a lot behind the DM screen, just ask him to cut back on that. I admit as a DM I fudge dice on occasion but usually I reserve fudging to avoid TPKs. If its a situation with several dead PCs but there is at least one PC that survives, I won't bother fudging.