DM using alternative rules for templates. [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM using alternative rules for templates. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SmiloDan
05-09-04, 05:26 PM Hi! I am joining a new game that alternates with mine every other week. The DM has a cool sounding, nautical campaign planned. He is offering templates to the PCs, and we're starting out at level 10. We were rolling up characters (well, mine was already rolled up: A pooka elf rogue 5/swashbuckler 3/fighter 2), and one PC is a half-dragon and the other is a half-celestial. Each has a level of +3 in this campaign.

What the DM is doing is giving the PCs 3 HD, with the regular BAB, Base Saves, and Skills for Dragon or Outsider HD.

So a half dragon dwarf barbarian 7 would have +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 natural armor, 3d12+7d12+24 hp, a breath weapon, and immunity to an energy type, (6 x (6 + Int mod)) + (7 x (4 + Int mod) skill points, Base saves of Fort +3 + 5 + Con, Ref +3 + 2 + Dex, Will +3 + 2 + Wis). Etc etc.

How unbalancing will this be? One thing to note is that it is going to be a mostly role-playing campaign, not a hack and slash campaign. Maybe averaging 1 combat per session, according to plan.
MoogleEmpMog
05-09-04, 05:45 PM Well, it makes template races much, much stronger than LA races with hit dice of their own, and perhaps even significantly stronger than PC classes.

Keep in mind that these characters aren't getting nigh-worthless hit dice, like Giant or Ooze; they're getting the real deal, Dragon (better than a PC class level) and Outisder (about equal to a PC class level) hit dice. Plus their special abilities from the templates.

If it's principally a role-playing campaign, balance won't much matter... but doing this WILL completely unbalance things in a combat-heavy campaign.
SmiloDan
05-09-04, 06:06 PM The DM offers a base race called the Rakasta, which is a cat person. There are many sub-types, one of which is the Fatalis, which is a sabertooth or dire-tiger version. I think it gets +6 Str, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha or something. It is also large. So I'm thinking of making my backup PC as a half-dragon fatalis barbarian. I can a strength of 44! 18 + 2 for levels + 6 for race + 8 for template + 6 for belt +4 for raging. With a 10 point power attack and wielding a greataxe, I can do 2d8+35 points of damage! Holy cow! More if it's a magic great axe.

[edit]

I would also 10d12 HD, Base Fort Saves of +8, Base Ref and Will of +5, before modifiers. With dragon skill points for my 1st 3 levels.

Nice.
Nom
05-09-04, 10:16 PM I know this is going to come across as really snide (sorry), but if a DM or player isn't skilled enough to tell whether a template or house rule is balanced they probably shouldn't be using it.
SmiloDan
05-10-04, 11:26 AM Yeah, that's the thing. He's a really great player and knows lots of tricks of the trade and has played in other systems too. So I don't understand why he is making uber-PCs possible if he doesn't want uber-PCs. ECL is supposed to be a cost, not a benefit. Who wouldn't want to play a half-dragon fighter? What's a couple of feats compared to 3 good saves, better hit dice, good attack bonus, and 6 skills per level?

Well, if my non-templated dude dies, I got an uber-templated dude on the backburner.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SmiloDan 05-09-04, 05:26 PM	Hi! I am joining a new game that alternates with mine every other week. The DM has a cool sounding, nautical campaign planned. He is offering templates to the PCs, and we're starting out at level 10. We were rolling up characters (well, mine was already rolled up: A pooka elf rogue 5/swashbuckler 3/fighter 2), and one PC is a half-dragon and the other is a half-celestial. Each has a level of +3 in this campaign. What the DM is doing is giving the PCs 3 HD, with the regular BAB, Base Saves, and Skills for Dragon or Outsider HD. So a half dragon dwarf barbarian 7 would have +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 natural armor, 3d12+7d12+24 hp, a breath weapon, and immunity to an energy type, (6 x (6 + Int mod)) + (7 x (4 + Int mod) skill points, Base saves of Fort +3 + 5 + Con, Ref +3 + 2 + Dex, Will +3 + 2 + Wis). Etc etc. How unbalancing will this be? One thing to note is that it is going to be a mostly role-playing campaign, not a hack and slash campaign. Maybe averaging 1 combat per session, according to plan.
MoogleEmpMog 05-09-04, 05:45 PM	Well, it makes template races much, much stronger than LA races with hit dice of their own, and perhaps even significantly stronger than PC classes. Keep in mind that these characters aren't getting nigh-worthless hit dice, like Giant or Ooze; they're getting the real deal, Dragon (better than a PC class level) and Outisder (about equal to a PC class level) hit dice. Plus their special abilities from the templates. If it's principally a role-playing campaign, balance won't much matter... but doing this WILL completely unbalance things in a combat-heavy campaign.
SmiloDan 05-09-04, 06:06 PM	The DM offers a base race called the Rakasta, which is a cat person. There are many sub-types, one of which is the Fatalis, which is a sabertooth or dire-tiger version. I think it gets +6 Str, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha or something. It is also large. So I'm thinking of making my backup PC as a half-dragon fatalis barbarian. I can a strength of 44! 18 + 2 for levels + 6 for race + 8 for template + 6 for belt +4 for raging. With a 10 point power attack and wielding a greataxe, I can do 2d8+35 points of damage! Holy cow! More if it's a magic great axe. [edit] I would also 10d12 HD, Base Fort Saves of +8, Base Ref and Will of +5, before modifiers. With dragon skill points for my 1st 3 levels. Nice.
Nom 05-09-04, 10:16 PM	I know this is going to come across as really snide (sorry), but if a DM or player isn't skilled enough to tell whether a template or house rule is balanced they probably shouldn't be using it.
SmiloDan 05-10-04, 11:26 AM	Yeah, that's the thing. He's a really great player and knows lots of tricks of the trade and has played in other systems too. So I don't understand why he is making uber-PCs possible if he doesn't want uber-PCs. ECL is supposed to be a cost, not a benefit. Who wouldn't want to play a half-dragon fighter? What's a couple of feats compared to 3 good saves, better hit dice, good attack bonus, and 6 skills per level? Well, if my non-templated dude dies, I got an uber-templated dude on the backburner.