Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 04:14 PM	Does a DM get to decide what your character's race looks like or does the player have that liberty. Please I need an answer as soon as possible.
BladeBoy 07-25-04, 04:26 PM	I don't see why they would, that's pretty dumb, but the DM can really do wahtever they want.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 04:41 PM	So you agree that PCs should get the choice?
cryptictravler 07-25-04, 04:42 PM	I would say a DM defines the possible aspcts of a race: Humans have legs, 2 arms, 1 vaguely round head... hair: brown, black, blonde, red/rust, white, grey skin: white-peach-tan-brown-darkbrown-black You know what I mean...but you should be able to work within those. Biggger or smaller for your race, coloration... I mean there are few purple people with blue hair and 7 arms....
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 04:50 PM	The thing is, my DM and I are agruing about what a race that we found online looks like. Would that be minor enough to be within the player's control? I mean, we already know the general look of the race, but its the specific details that he thinks are under his rule. I think otherwise. Whose power is that?
RRG 07-25-04, 04:53 PM	It really depends. If you're talking about how many appendages, or something that would effect skills, then yes the DM should probably decide that. But if it's just hair color, eye color, etc. then it's really up to the player. But doesn't this place where you found the race have a description of it? If not, then maybe it's not exactly the best place to get races from....
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 05:05 PM	Here's what it is, have any of you seen the Vulipi race one the Races section? Anyway, the link is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280022). I think that it looks like Tails from the Sonic TV series (as that was were the make got the idea sort of. Read the post) with some other humanoid features, my DM, on the other hand, thinks that it looks like some creature from Inyuasha. Even though he knows that I detest that show for being utterly lacking of morals. He also knows that I hate to play anything bearing similarity to that show, yet he insists on it looking like that. So who's right here? Him or me?
Yuffie 07-25-04, 05:08 PM	Not to go off topic... but how in the hell is Inu Yasha lacking in morals? Inu Yasha's violent toward -demons-, sure. Hell, even Sesshoumaru is pretty darn benevolent for a 'bad guy'. And a some of the demons they fight actually genuinely care about each other (like the thunder brothers or whatever their actual names were). I'm not seeing how you got that idea (that Inu Yasha isn't moral) at all. (Still, I know some folks that think Disney is demonic, so I guess anything's possible). I'm just not getting the "Inu Yasha = lacking in morals" thing. It actually has a lot of good morals to teach folks of any age, although of course I'd recommend it only to teenagers or older. Even the censored version has some relatively scary stuff for little children. Anyway, it's the DM's rule. It's his race that he's allowing in his campaign, not you. The moment that race touches his campaign, it's his domain in terms of appearance and the like. It's his version of the Vulipi or whatever. If you want to imagine your character as looking like Tails (... not that I could fathom why you would as opposed to Inu-sama), then do it... but as far as everyone else is concerned, the DM has the final say about that. He's also right on another level. Inu Yasha > Sonic & Co.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-25-04, 05:14 PM	There are humans on that show, so does that mean you would be utterly opposed to playing one? Seriously though, if general looks really make that much difference, let the DM have their own vision, and you can have yours. There's not alot of game mechanics based on having specific looks between 'Tails,' and 'Inuyasha-look-alike.'
Yuffie 07-25-04, 05:16 PM	Well. Tails is about 1/4th the size of Inu Yasha (assuming he's talking about the half-demon with dog ears type of creature)... so I guess that could possibly make a difference, and a giant-ass Tails the size of a human would be really... weird. Not to mention that Tails has fur and Inu Yasha doesn't, so if someone tried to light them on fire that could make a difference. Plus Inu Yasha could pass as human with a hat or hood while Tails couldn't.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 05:22 PM	A few points here: 1) I am intitled to my opinions and I hate Inu Yasha. 2) There are things in that show that I find wrong, so I don't like it. 3)SoldierofFortune, please tell me that you know that comment was unnessesary and pointless. 4) The fact of the matter is for a minor detail like the ones I am asking about (NOT Inu Yasha) wouldn't that be in the player's domain? 5) If you want another example how's this: Do elves have blonde or black hair? What color are dwarf beards in general? 6) If you read the link at all, then you would notice that the race is small size. I smply said that it was from an offensive show. 7) That's why i think that it looks like Tails (with more humanoid features) because the post looks to me like it's a fox-like race. I may be wrong, so please tell me if I am. By the way, for future reference, if I say someting that makes you angry, you don't have to keep reading it. I don't care if you leave, but please stay on the subject of the matter. I have to make my character tomorrow and I have no time for flame. P.S. Keep the obsenities to a minimum. I hope that I don't have to remind you that they are against the Code.
Ranthanas 07-25-04, 05:33 PM	DM decides what the race looks like, you decide what the individual looks like. DM also decides if the race is legit- I certainly wouldn't allow any races from these boards. As for the size, they are specifically small sized.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 05:37 PM	And what if the creator of the race is in contrast with the DM? Edit: I just fixed the link so now you can read it. Sorry.
Enslaved DM 07-25-04, 06:00 PM	Lets be clear. Some guy posting on some board doesn't decide anything about your DM's campaign world. Your DM does. If he decides to allow/include a creature in his world, it is his right to fiddle with it. It is even his right to mess with your character specifically (although this is very dangerous territory and should not be done lightly). What your character looks like is a collaberation between you and the DM, which usually is the DM rubber stamping your idea. Finally, GOP Dragon I don't think you were being flamed. You stated that you found a show to be morally objectionable, other people disagreed, and asked you to explain your reasoning. They didn't say you were wrong, they asked you why. That's all.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 06:20 PM	You can dislike Inu Yasha all you want. But as entertainment goes, Inu Yasha's frickin' tame. Heh. Well, whatever. That you play Dungeons and Dragons but find something immoral about Inu Yasha speaks volumes. Oh well! No accounting for taste. Though I am still curious about what exactly you find so disturbing about a show that doesn't really present anything objectionable in the first place aside from some demon-killing mayhem (usually done via flashes of light that vaporize the bad guy despite the prominent use of swords). It just doesn't add up. Makes no sense. Anyway. Once again. It's your DM's world. Not yours. They decide what races exist in it and what their basic appearance is. Not you. Not us. Your DM. If you don't like it and they won't change it, tough cookies. Too bad, so sad. That's how it works. If you want to have a goofy anthro like Tails be a race in your game (and I do know some furry-obsessed folk, so... if that's your thing...) then run your own campaign. Otherwise, if you ask your DM and they say no... to put it bluntly, it's time to stop arguing, stop asking the internet for backup, and deal with it.
DM Zoc 07-25-04, 06:20 PM	Unfortunately, the DM has the final say on anything, no matter how unreasonable. This has led me to not play a goblin in a D&D system (I only play pointy-nosed goblins), or a kobold in 2E D&D.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:20 PM	Well, he and I both use these Boards and we both like their outcome, so we've se it to a wager that whoever gets the most peope to agree with him gets to decide what the race looks like. And maybe I wasn't flamed, but I am pressed for time and don't need to argue why I find a show objectionable. Besides, that was off the subject, whether Yuffie meant it to be or not. To be perfectly honest, I don't care if I can look like tails or not, its just that he's done this so much I'm more concerned about a player's rights than anything else. I like the stats, but I don't like how he wants my character to look. Especially since a player should decide those things.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 06:23 PM	Big Hint For The Future If you don't "have the time" to debate something, then don't mention it. That's like saying "so I was making an elf for my DM's game... and they said they have long ears like in Lodoss War... BY THE WAY LODOSS WAR SUCKS AND IS MORALLY DEPRAVED... well anyway, what do you all think?", and then accusing people of getting off topic when they defend RoLW. Don't want to talk about it? Then don't bring it up. And for the record (since you two are taking a vote), my vote's for an Inu Yasha looking race. Because I always hated Tails for some reason. Sonic I could handle. I don't know why. Sonic was an evil, immoral bastard anyway. Always running around stealing golden rings and keeping them for himself. I like the stats, but I don't like how he wants my character to look. Especially since a player should decide those things. Bzzt. Wrong. A DM can tell you whether or not you can play a caucasian in his game or not if they want to, based on what cultures they're allowing in their game. If they don't want a race that looks like a fox-thing in their game, then you don't get to play a fox-thing. That is not "your right as a player". That's 100% DM territory.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:26 PM	What I was saying was that he was forcing my character to be from something that I find offensive, and he knows that I don't like that. It didn't have to open up a different debate. As I said, if you don't like what i say then you can leave. I won't force my opinoins on you.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by The GOP Dragon What I was saying was that he was forcing my character to be from something that I find offensive, and he knows that I don't like that. It didn't have to open up a different debate. Sorry, nice try... but no. If that was your entire purpose you should have just said "My DM and I disagree on what a Vulipi looks like, who gets to decide?"... and left out your whole declaration of your moral beliefs. The whole "Tails" and "Inu Yasha" thing didn't even need to be mentioned. So, no. And again. I don't even see how you think you have the right to tell your DM that a race in their world looks completely different from what you envisioned. Hell, if something like Tails walked into a town, he'd be slaughtered on sight for being a monster.
bitnine 07-25-04, 06:31 PM	Heheheheh. I have to say this thread gave me a chuckle. While some take the "DM is always right" line as a mantra, it doesn't particularly enthrall me. However, in this particular case, yeah, sure. He's introducing internet material into his game on player request - something more permissive than many other DMs would care to go. The fact that he would take the liberty of interpreting or even modifying aspects of that material while introducing it into his game ain't really that surprising. He certainly "gets" to do that. Hm. Were you hoping to fish for comments of your DM being wrong so that you could try and use them as ammunition in a pre-session argument? [Edit: Ah, 100 reponses while I was typing this post. Eh, looks like that last statement was close enough to the mark anyways. /Edit]
Yuffie 07-25-04, 06:33 PM	No, certainly, the DM isn't "always right". But in this case... yes, the DM has full authority over what races he or she allows into their game... and this includes what the races look like physically. Hell, if the DM wants to say "all elves in my campaign world have brown hair", then any elf you create must have brown hair. Unless they dyed it or something. I don't really care if someone wants to play a draconian-looking character or not. Even if it has the same stats as a human. Even if it's weaker than a human. If draconians don't fit into the campaign setting, then the player can't play one.
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 06:43 PM	They physically resemble young humans except for their dual fox tails. I would have to side with your DM, and the character he is talking about is shippo, he looks like a small boy(he is a demon) except for fox ears and two tails, the description does not say fur covers the body and gives no indication of such. But the DM has the final say in general racial characteristics. Your DM would say elves hair is found in these colors, you get to pick the specific color of your character.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 06:44 PM	Shippo! How cute. ^^
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:49 PM	bitnine, Actually, he and I had this debate and set the wager before I posted this. Anyway, you are right, he is a rather lenient DM in most cases. With other players, but a lot of the time, when he didn't come up with the idea he doesn't like it. It happens alll the time when i DM with him. Which is why i stopped. Yuffie, Look, I'm not trying to get sympathy for what i am about to say, but i feel i should say that I was in the wrong to say that Inu Yasha is totally without morals. True there are some parts in it that are very wrong and should not be promoted, but i should not have attackid it like that if i didn't want to start a debate over the ethics of a TV show. That was my fault and i am sorry. Again, all I really care about at this point is that he does this thing ALL THE TIME. so, agan, I a, more concerned with the my rights as a player, and not the fact that I get to look like a character from a TV show. I know I should respect his power as a DM, but he should also respect the fact that he knows hes making a character of mine look like something i find questionable, and he isn't willing to comprimise. So isn't the DM wrong here or am I just being a fool? Edit: ShadowRanger, that's the thing, the maker said that he got the idea from a mix of Tails and something called the Kitsume (does that ring any bells?). So that's how I figure it looks sometwhat like him.
danielinthewolvesden 07-25-04, 06:53 PM	I have a wild & crazy idea- why don't you just ask Sacul Kamadaka what they look like? I do have to admit- this is the first time I have ever heard of any DM allowing in any race or class made up on a message board...
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 06:53 PM	look at it this way you look like a small human with two fox tails and weir hair, that can be quite fun(our party Manead got nicknamed Sparkles, everyone we meet thinks he is a sparkly human)
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:55 PM	Although, if I lose this wager then I don't think that it couldn't look like Shippo, in fact, that's just as accurate as Tails unless the maker of the thread choses to be more specific, but this is more the straw that broke the camel's back with my DM.
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 06:57 PM	GOP Dragon- Kitsume are human fox like creatures which can vary greatly ( I have seen some races in other campaigns/custom races called this or kitsune, or similiar and they can be humans with fox ears and a tail or humans covered in hair with a fox face and a tail so that does not help much, but Tails is probably the most well known dual fox tail character...) danielinthewolvesden- Not really, some custom races and classes are well thought out and balanced and can fit into a role a DM is looking to fill.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:57 PM	Daniel, I did ask him. Check the link a few posts back. I am sorry for forgetting Sacul's name, I just kept getting so many posts it was hard to keep up.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 06:59 PM	So, pretty much these things could look like anything as long as they have fox ears and two tails if I understand your post correctly.
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 07:01 PM	it depends on what the creator of that race wants, there are so many variations it comes down to the vision of whoever is in charge. Your DM has his own view on a race, you have another, and another person may have a third.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 07:03 PM	No. They look like what the DM says they look like. It doesn't matter what the original creator of the race says. The moment your DM uses it in their game, it's not the original creator's race anymore. Just like "Faerun" belongs to individual DMs... each a seperate world. If a DM decides that all the drow were exterminated by a flood in their campaign world, or that dwarves have bunny ears, or that Alustriel was turned into a sex slave by Elaith Craulnober, then that's their right to decide. You can't go back to the people who wrote material for Forgotten Realms and say "is what my DM is doing right?". Of course it's right. It's their campaign. Again, you can mentally envision the world however you like. If you want to envision your character as Tails, then envision them as Tails. But if at any point it matters exactly what your character looks like... then to the other PCs and to all the NPCs of the world setting, your character looks like Shippo, not Tails. Or at least they look like a member of Shippo's race as opposed to a furry anthropomorphic fox thing.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 07:06 PM	My guess is, again, that they look like anything as long as they have these three facts about them 1) looks like a child 2)has two fox tails that it can spin fast to slwo fall 3) has fox ears that's how it is until Sacul puts another description.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 07:09 PM	Actually, I didn't see anything about fox ears. They live very long lives and usually quest and adventure just for personal amusement, they have a tendency to be taken lightly due to their child-like personality and appearance. They physically resemble young humans except for their dual fox tails. They hair can be any almost style or color and are many times multi-colored, their tails usually match their hair color. So. Young human + dual fox tails. That's what they look like. A child with two fox tails. That's it. No furry bodies. No fox ears even. Just two tails. If you or your DM wants to expand upon that... then that's between you and your DM, but your DM has final say.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 07:11 PM	Ok so I misread it then.
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 07:16 PM	I would have to agree with Yuffie here, the DM does have the final say and can tweak the campaign, having human looking creatures as PC's may be easier story wise for him.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 07:23 PM	I dunno, from what i can tell, he doesn't care that much what our chracters are.
Yuffie 07-25-04, 07:25 PM	Well, if he doesn't care, then write up a race called "Fox Dude" or something with the same stats and say it looks like Tails.
ShadowRanger 07-25-04, 07:28 PM	I would ask him if it matters to the world what it looks like and if he says no, ask (nicely both times) if you could have it look like tails.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 07:31 PM	Well, we just finishedc the debate over AIM. He wins. Ah, well, everything. Or many things, but he and two oother people are the only good roleplayers that i play with so im not complaining.
The GOP Dragon 07-25-04, 07:33 PM	I didn't really care if i looked like tails, it was just easier to imagine than something from a show that i would rather not watch is all.
DaTedinator 07-25-04, 07:45 PM	Okay, some things for the record: I'm the DM of the game I do care what they look like, and it does matter. I've built my own campaign, and tails doesn't fit into it. I'm trying to be decent about letting new things in, but he keeps trying things that really push the limits. I'm just a bit stressed about it, and I wish he could for once choose a race from my (considerably large) selection, and a background that fits into my world, which also has a very large area for creativity. Is that really asking too much?
bitnine 07-25-04, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by DaTedinator I've built my own campaign, and tails doesn't fit into it. I'm trying to be decent about letting new things in, but he keeps trying things that really push the limits. I'm just a bit stressed about it, and I wish he could for once choose a race from my (considerably large) selection, and a background that fits into my world, which also has a very large area for creativity. Is that really asking too much? My god! That sounds horribly restrictive! How is he supposed to enjoy a character if he can't play tails? Could he at least play a feral half-dragon half-ogre with the multiheaded template?
DaTedinator 07-25-04, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by bitnine My god! That sounds horribly restrictive! How is he supposed to enjoy a character if he can't play tails? Could he at least play a feral half-dragon half-ogre with the multiheaded template? It's okay, he's working with me now, if we could cut the kicking-while-down to a minimum, that would be great. I'm sorry, it's just that I was just yelling at myself when I almost posted the same thing. So let's just let this thread die.
DragonsArt 07-26-04, 11:05 AM	The DM is the legislative branch... he makes the rules... you are like a quasi-executive branch in that you can veto him by saying "Have fun with your campaign, see you later!" Trust me... I've sad good bye to many a megomanical control freak DMs. It's a game... the goal is to have fun. If you're not having fun... find another game or DM your own game.
Krelios 07-26-04, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by DaTedinator Okay, some things for the record: I'm the DM of the game I do care what they look like, and it does matter. I've built my own campaign, and tails doesn't fit into it. I'm trying to be decent about letting new things in, but he keeps trying things that really push the limits. I'm just a bit stressed about it, and I wish he could for once choose a race from my (considerably large) selection, and a background that fits into my world, which also has a very large area for creativity. Is that really asking too much? You decide what the world is like, he has to pick something in that world to play. If he wants something that isn't in your world, too friggin bad. I hate whiny munchkins...
ShadowRanger 07-26-04, 01:28 PM	actually this is less of a munchkin issue as more of a roleplaying issue, still its the DM's world in the end.
DragonsArt 07-26-04, 02:31 PM	Oh... and if your DM is doing this just to irk you... approach him and ask him why he's beeing and *ss... that's the 8 CHA approach, I would probably try something more tactful. If he's really doing it just to screw with you, then I'd leave and find another game. Life's too short to put up with someone else's sh*t.
MysterYvil 07-27-04, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by DaTedinator I've built my own campaign, and tails doesn't fit into it. I'm trying to be decent about letting new things in, but he keeps trying things that really push the limits. I'm just a bit stressed about it, and I wish he could for once choose a race from my (considerably large) selection, and a background that fits into my world, which also has a very large area for creativity. Is that really asking too much? I feel your pain!
Korlan_the_Crusher 07-27-04, 02:39 PM	In most games I've played the DM doesn't care what you want to look like, but if it's out of the ordinary then you can bet on having certain things that are simple for regular characters to do be much more difficult for you.:b:
The GOP Dragon 07-28-04, 12:01 AM	Yaeh I've not had a chance to look at this thread for a while so i'll try to reply to your answers as best as possible (This will be in order from DaTedinator's last post. I've already privately discused this with him): Dragonsart, I'm actually having an ok time wiht DaTedinator now. I admit that I am slightly prone to strange mood swings in which I will do wierd things (a la this thread). Actually my character is now a Vulipi knife thrower and is actually rather cool. I've got some plans with this one. Krelios, "Whiny munchkin"? Addmitedly, that may not be to far off very often. Again there are times that I do things that are rather unnessesary. Well, that can cover whiney. i am not sure about being a munchkin though. I do munchkin-type stuff in other games but not D&D. I digress. ShadowRanger, Your right. The DM is in charge. DaTedinator hasn't messed me up (to bad) so far so I don't think that I have to much to fear. Again we worked something out with the Vulipi, so we are good on that. DragonsArt, I don't know if he is out to irk me. i think i was just being hyper-sensitive at that point. I thank you for your support, though. MysterYvil, I actually did consider choosing one of his races and one the classes he made, buut it just didn't look like it would work out with the type of game he is doing. Besides, we worked everything out as I already said. Besides, I am going to go with Dragonsart on this: DaTedinator may have the power, but i still vote. Korlan_the_Crusher, I dunno, I always enjoy playing things that are generally hard to play. I did a brass dragon once, and the lack of equipment usage wasn't to hard to deal with. Again I am getting off the subject. P.S. If I missed any of your points, please tell me and I shall answer them accordingly.
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 12:54 PM	Besides, I am going to go with Dragonsart on this: DaTedinator may have the power, but i still vote. So let me get this straight... someone is willing to expend the time and energy to CREATE A WORLD TO ENTERTAIN YOU and you think you have the right to VOTE on what goes into it? Instead of coming up with ways to passive-aggressively subvert the DM's "power," maybe you should try simply exploring and appreciating the world your DM has created for you. If you still don't like it then offer to DM a campaign of your own. When you're willing to assume that level of responsibility and expend that level of effort then you can feel free to populate your world with all the kewl, morally acceptable videogame races you can download. Until then be thankful that you have a DM who *is* willing to put that much work into his game.
The GOP Dragon 07-28-04, 02:03 PM	Ah, no. You misunderstand my meaning. What I mean is that he has the power to do what I want, but if continually mistreats me then I can leave. I was using the North American Democratic system as an example. I probably should have said veto. I am giving it a chance, in fact the character I made first was not suited for his type of game (Deep Imersioon with a character with a Cha of & is hard). So he gave me a chance ot make a new character. I explored the ideas he presented, and they weren't suited to what I was looking for so DaTedinator allowed me to find something else. The argument that he and I were having over this thread (and AIM) is over now and the character he and I made (he makes our characters wih us) is working out pretty well.In fact I think that I should probably edit the name.
DragonsArt 07-28-04, 02:05 PM	Originally posted by Arrowhen So let me get this straight... someone is willing to expend the time and energy to CREATE A WORLD TO ENTERTAIN YOU and you think you have the right to VOTE on what goes into it? Instead of coming up with ways to passive-aggressively subvert the DM's "power," maybe you should try simply exploring and appreciating the world your DM has created for you. If you still don't like it then offer to DM a campaign of your own. When you're willing to assume that level of responsibility and expend that level of effort then you can feel free to populate your world with all the kewl, morally acceptable videogame races you can download. Until then be thankful that you have a DM who *is* willing to put that much work into his game. As a group activity, most things should be within a vote. The days of DMs as little dictators are over. And I say this AS a DM. My job as a DM isn't to make the players goosestep in line to my ideals... the job of a DM is as a story teller. You tell the story, the players are the characters. But the book is a collaborative effort. If there's a rule variation that needs to be considered, then we take a vote. As a DM, I may not like it, but I'm experienced and creative enough to work around just about anything. It's usually the obsessive-compulsive, ego-wild megolomanical DMs that can't accept any deviation from their "master plan"... do they name their campaign worlds Mein Kampf, I wonder? This isn't the old TSR "all we have is Greyhawk" days - those days are long gone. There are enough off the shelf campaigns out there, that anyone with a little creativity can be a DM and use an off the shelf campaign setting - so there's no need to bow to rigid DMs. I've personally left several games because my idea of heroic adventuring didn't mesh with their idea of let's keep the players poor, under-powered and a running for their lives. That's the "I want to be Tolkein" DM... and while Lord of the Rings makes a great book and a great movie, it gets REALLY, REALLY old, REALLY, REALLY quickly to have to run from everything... and get no experience. If you really want to be constantly running and in fear of your life... go walk down the backstreets of any center city and get it out of your system.
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 04:23 PM	My job as a DM isn't to make the players goosestep in line to my ideals... And where in my post did I say that it was? the job of a DM is as a story teller. You tell the story, the players are the characters. But the book is a collaborative effort. The players collaborate by playing the parts of their characters, the DM does EVERYTHING ELSE. He or she develops the setting, fleshes out the minor characters, presents the conflicts. I'm not saying that players should obey the DMs every whim--one of the joys of DMing is the constant surprises that players come up with. What I *am* saying is that players should appreciate the vast amount of time and energy a good DM invests into his or her game (especially a DM who runs a homebrew campaign, as the one mentioned in this thread) and not seek to undermine that effort by demanding they be able to use some unbalanced class, overpowered feat, or STUPID VIDEO GAME CHARACTER they found on the internet. Now, obviously a good DM is going to be attentive to the needs of his or her players. If I have a group of players who all like to intricately role-play wizards I'm not going to dump a low-magic hack and slash campaign on them without AT LEAST saying, "Hey, guys, how about a change of pace?" But at the same time, if my DM tells me he's starting a core Greyhawk campaign I'm not going to call him a jackbooted thug if he refuses to let me play a psionic lesbian bunny rabbit with a machine gun.
The GOP Dragon 07-28-04, 08:38 PM	???? Uhm, now you have me confused. "Psionic lesbian bunny rabbit with a machine gun"???? Where could you plaese explain that to me.
Arrowhen 07-29-04, 10:18 AM	???? Uhm, now you have me confused. "Psionic lesbian bunny rabbit with a machine gun"???? Where could you plaese explain that to me. Ok, read that phrase as "cheesy character concept that doesn't fit the tone of the campaign."
The GOP Dragon 07-29-04, 11:01 AM	Uhg. If you are talking about my character then let me reiterate to you that DaTediantor was willing to have it from square one.It was the appearence of the charactre that was the problem.
Arrowhen 07-29-04, 12:26 PM	No, I wasn't talking about *your* character specifically. I was talking about players *in general* who are so stuck on their 'kewl character concepts' that they can't be bothered to look at them in the context of the world that the DM is presenting. DM: Ok, you can be any core class except for Monk, as well as these two classes from Complete Warrior, this one from Dragon magazine, and this homebrewed one. Player: I wanna be a Monk! DM: The Monk class doesn't exist in this campaign. There are plenty of other class options to choose from, but none of the cultures in this game world ever developed an Asiatic tradition of unarmed combat, so the Monk doesn't really fit in anywhere. Player: I wanna be a Monk anyway, because I saw this kewl build on the mix/max boards that lets a monk get 17 attacks per round at third lev- uh, I mean for roleplaying purposes!
The GOP Dragon 07-29-04, 12:53 PM	Ok. I get it now.
Arbitrary Aardvark 07-29-04, 01:36 PM	Originally posted by The GOP Dragon ???? Uhm, now you have me confused. "Psionic lesbian bunny rabbit with a machine gun"???? Where could you plaese explain that to me. Clearly he wants to play in Mongoose Publications "Macho Women With Guns" d20 modern setting. It's all quite straightforward -- Psionic -- capable of psi powers, ala the Psionic Handbook Lesbian -- female person sexually attracted to other females (presumably of the same species) Bunny Rabbit -- either an anthropomorphic rabbit (as in Anime, or other genres), or perhaps an actual intelligent rabbit (as in "Bunnies and Burrows"), in which case the next point is quite difficult, as, IIRC, it takes at least two rabbits to fire a machine gun. Machine Gun -- often used to refer to any fully automatic small arm, properly refers to a support weapon which is typically either vehicle mounted or crew served. (Examples include the WWII German MG34 and MG42, the .303 Browning, the modern HB2 etc.) All quite simple.
The GOP Dragon 07-29-04, 01:49 PM	:heehee. Well I dunno 'bout macho if he's a bunny. Any way, the scary thing is that when he said machine gun i thought that he was talking about the gnomish pistol DaTedinator forced me to have. I'm not complaining, mind. I've ahd good times with that gun. :devil:.
Twisted Puppy 07-30-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark Bunny Rabbit -- either an anthropomorphic rabbit (as in Anime, or other genres), or perhaps an actual intelligent rabbit (as in "Bunnies and Burrows"), in which case the next point is quite difficult, as, IIRC, it takes at least two rabbits to fire a machine gun. John Ringo's There Will Be Dragons has something very similar to said bunny- that's been given an AI, and carries a pistol. Dragonsart, just because a DM feels something is not appropriate for his campaign setting doesn't make him a "jack booted thug." While the DM should try to come to terms with players who have character ideas, if it's going to entail a ton of extra work for him to get his campaign to work, he has every right to say no. For example, I don't allow FR stuff IMC, except for some flavor items that don't affect anything but roleplay. Reason: I don't own any FR material, don't want to own it, and don't want to have to read through an additional 3 or 4 books and then adjust everything in the game to allow for one character that takes feats/classes that radically skew the balance of the campaign. No vote, that's just how it is. As you said, they can always find another game if they don't like it, but I'm not going to allow players a vote to give me extra work. I already spend 6-8 hours a week on the campaign, and can't spare any more time than that.