Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timewilltell 11-26-03, 11:03 PM	Me: "I cast Heroism on Galldon" Dm: "What, Why didn't you cast it on the NPC?" I have a problem. My DM, who is unfortunately not very acustomed with 3.5 rules, is infatuated with his NPC's. He has two of these "pets" that constantly get under my skin. One is his halfling rouge, the other is his Spiked chain fighter. So, why is this annoying? Well, its quite simple: the game is almost entirely built around how cool his NPC's are. Not that this is stated outright, but take this as an example. DM: "The barkeep tells you the man that knows where the cavern to the kings treasure is. However, he warns you that this particular person is a dangerous individual." Me: "Alright guys, lets go. When you see him, keep your weapons at a ready." DM: "When you get outside the bar, you see your halfling companion with the guys head." NPC: "I got the information, bigfolk" In another game, the DM refused to start until he got a book so that he could update his NPC. Well, I guess I could rattle off these things all day, but instead I'll take it too the finale. The halfling rouge, being evil, threatened my character after a situation were I was reduced to firing my crossbow. So, me, being evil, with fox's cunning on and two focuses in enchantment, decide to hold him to keep him quite. Now, a level 3 spell, and a total of 22 intelligence (+6) should make for an impossible save for a 6th level halfling rouge. Save DC: 21 Halfling bonus to save: (+3, he had no wisdom modifier) Somehow, this rouge made the save 3 times, after which I was gutted. It seemed fairly obvious to me that the rolls were fudged. The point of this post is mainly for advice. I already talked to the DM about his NPC's and he tended to shrug me off. Is this a game worth playing?
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-26-03, 11:13 PM	If it's that blatant, you shouldn't be the only player who's having a problem with it. Any self-respecting player should, if it's really as bad as you're indicating, be ready to start a campaign of his/her own. 1. Talk to the DM 2. Talk to the other players 3. Talk to the DM as a group of players 4. Start a different game with a new DM You've done #1. Take it to the next level: talk to your fellow players and see if they have a problem with it as well. If you're not the only one getting cheesed off, discuss the matter with the DM....all of you. Don't be rude, just be honest. Explain why you as PCs are feeling upstaged. You're supposed to be the heroes for crying out loud; you're not supposed to be the bumbling sidekicks of the DM's hero. If this doesn't work, I'd suggest the group of players start a separate game with one of you DMing. It's really the most fun out of all the jobs. :) If it turns out it's just you who's having problems with the DM, I'd suggest finding a different game. You won't be having fun, and that'll bleed into everyone else's attitude as well.
Tevish Szat 11-26-03, 11:54 PM	Talk to the other players, if you can get all of them to have it in for the pets, then its time to have some fun P.O.ing the DM. A halfling rogue, eh? Time to play a new game in the meatgringer dungeon. when you come to a door, the halfling searcher for traps, then two PCs pick him up, a third opens the door, and the two toss the halfling through the door. then 3 closes the door. wait for the screaming to stop. repeat until Halfling is gone. Or until you have thrown him at every hazard in the dungeon, using the fudged rolls to defeat all of them. As for a chain fighter, get him to wear a costume, find a paladin, and scream "KYTON!". repeat as nessicary.
BlaineTog 11-27-03, 01:50 AM	Make him roll in the open for things such as saves, attack rolls, and SKill Cheakcs (such as gather information...).
Vaarkheef 11-27-03, 02:01 AM	The purpose of a DM screen is precisely to hide die rolls from players... so sadly, you might have to find another solution than to ask him to roll out in the open (which I doubt he will do).
Dauntless 11-27-03, 02:07 AM	At every combat scene, LET the NPCs go first. Seriously. Do as little as possible. See how long it takes for the DM to realize he's essentially playing with himself. If he questions why you aren't doing anything in combat, just point out that the NPCs seem completely capable of doing all the dangerous stuff, so this is safer.
Angus Cotton 11-27-03, 02:48 AM	I knew another game group that had a DM that did the same thing yours is doing. Is NPCs came with superpowerful weapons though, such as the following on a 12th level DM pet: +6 longsword on a crit, proc the spell Disentigrate on the target in addition to critical damage weilder can cast the spells Stoneskin, Heal, and Resurrection at will out of the weapon (note this weapon was in 2nd edition games) The players soon grew to hate this practice. Their solution? As soon as the game begins, all the PCs charge the NPC pet and kill him, regardless of alignment. The players, of course, would die. But then 2 hours would go by while all the players rolled up the most complicated characters they could think of, and made sure to ask the DM many, many questions that would force him to go to obscure sourcebooks ("DM, I want to play a Thri-keen Psionist/Druid from Dark Sun, that got sucked through a wurm hole to your world. Exactly, what is my starting money if I start with ceramic pieces and how do I change them to the currency of your world?"). When all this was done, the DM would start the game again with pet in tow. What would happen? Player rush to death on the NPC again. Repeat process. The DM tried just rezzing the PCs out of his ubah weapons, but that would just start a rez rush again. After a short time of this, the DM decided to just let the players kill his NPC pet, but this DM NEVER stopped playing his pets. No No....and the new ones he would bring back into the games I played with him had different names, but remarkable similiar stats and equipment. And so it goes... Charles
Thorak 11-27-03, 07:33 AM	The DM's job is to run a story featuring the PCs. It is not his job to run a story featuring his own little pets. Either the DM just really enjoys playing with himself (in which case, hand him a copy of Baldur's Gate and a cheat program to keep his uber-munchkins happy) or he really wants to be a player, but no sane DM will give him the uber-munchkin gear he wants for his uber-munchkin characters. Solution: get the rest of the group to sit him down and in no uncertain words explain that he's being an arse. Alternatively, to take a page from one of the other posters, spend the entire next session reading a book/watching television/talking about entirely non-D&D stuff at EVERY opportunity. Whenever the DM harasses you that it's your turn, say things like "Umm, ok, I uhhhh, hit the badguy with my uhhh *look at character sheet with really bored look on your face* sword." Then roll the dice and look away. When he asks you what damage you dealt or if you hit, point at the dice and say he's the one who knows the enemy hitpoints and AC, he can figure it out. With everyone doing this, he'll probably get furious. If he doesn't, he really DOES just want to play by himself, so I would say step two is find a new DM among you others. If he does get mad though, just point out that there's no real reason to pay attention or do anything, since his uber-munchkin NPCs do all the work and reap all the rewards anyway. And then return to watching TV.
Aranamarunda 11-27-03, 07:45 AM	At every combat scene, LET the NPCs go first. Seriously. Do as little as possible. See how long it takes for the DM to realize he's essentially playing with himself. If he questions why you aren't doing anything in combat, just point out that the NPCs seem completely capable of doing all the dangerous stuff, so this is safer. LOL and a perfectly good solution! Ones, when I was very underpowered against a certain NPC (I was level 4 or something and he was a nearly divine being with about 25 levels in 2nd edition) and we had to stop him or he would do something pretty evil, I sat down. What would you do? Fight him to death? I think that one hit by him against my character should have done the trick and I am not LG, so I didn't think it would matter much I would sit down.:) :confused:
Glock-9mm 11-27-03, 08:00 AM	Pet NPCs, All GMs have them... myself included. But please remember that GMs have two favourite types of NPCs. And very often they come from 2 very different types of GMs... Here are the 2 GM Categories I could think of when it comes to "Pet NPCs". GM Type 1: The Muppet Master. This GM is often young in the ways of the GM arts and needs to compensate his/her GM style. They do this by making 2-3 reoccurring NPCs that’s have Powerful Items, Abilities, or a stupidly power-gamed rules concepts. Often these NPCs are raised forms of their old PCs from adventures past and you have to work bloody hard to get one over them, But when you do victory comes at a cost as I will explain in my story below. GM Type 2: The Puppet Master. This GM is a grown up version of the Muppet Master and has ascended into the fully-fledged GM ranks. He/she has learnt through trial and error that in the game of NPCs, Stats mean nothing... Its all about Characterisations and personalty to the Puppet Master GM and their core NPCs have a lasting effect on the players through dynamic concepts, good role-playing. very little "paper" power is needed to make them and if done right you will remember them till the day the land reclaims your soul. My Story It was the summer of 98 and my closest mates (Who I still RPG with to this day) and I were playing a FR Skills and Powers Game. The GM at the time had a reputation for "Bat-Girl/Bat-Man" Npcs, At the time I was playing a LE 1/2 Orc by the name of "Syn Chaos-Bane" who was a hard tack fight. For 8 months this crazy 1/2 elemental/fighter NPC called Pheniox had been traveling with us and every 3rd encounter I was talking freindly fire from his "Strange/Over Powered" fire based powers... Well... After 8 Months I had enough and told the GMs "Pet NPC" that if he did that 1 more time Id kill him... The GM laughed and said I couldnt take him ever... Now that Orc blood runs deep you see and Orcs are cunning... So I waited... Finally we had a full on encounter with a Black Dragon that made this NPC use 95% of his fire power and yes I was hit yet again by this retard NPC. He was so low that all he really had left was his Sword and Armour. Our Cleric healed me and my PC yelled over to the GMs "Bat-Boy" NPC the following... SYN "Oi, sparky... got something for you..." Pheniox "Whats that Syn?" SYN "Remember what I said a week ago, about hitting me?" GM: ** Blank Look ** SYN/Player I shoot him with my Strength Bow... Combat Ensues... Lasts 2 rounds coz the NPC has to get to me and he is already low on HPs... Them Orcs are strong you know! GM: Ok, He collapses tp the ground out cold... At this points the players where all cheering that he got some of his own... But me... When I say something I mean it... SYN/Player Any Big rocks about GM? GM: Umm... Yes.... SYN/Player Good, I grab it and smash that guys head into pulp.... GM: Your joking right? Players ** Silent... ** SYN/Player No... No Im bloody not... I've never seen a GM cry at the table until that day, Id killed his pride and joy and showed 0 remorse. I'll note that the GM is my best mate and has been since I was 10. (Im now 26)... But I warned him... Anyway that NPC died and not 1 fellow PC raised a finger to stop me. The GM in question had a few other such NPCs over the years and I think we have finally stopped his cycle. He is pretty good now a days :) Thx for taking the time to read :)
Taran Alvein 11-29-03, 09:07 PM	If you're going to take the "let the NPCs do all the work" approach, then have each party member hit each enemy only once, and then, only for the killing blow. This way, the DM can't argue that you did nothing, and thus get no EXP. What's more, if he tries to have the enemies all attack the PCs, now that the PCs are killing people, whenever things start looking bad, run away just fast enough that you are always just outside the enemy's range, but in visual range of the pet NPCs killing the enemies. Take the fight to flight, so to speak. This way, you'll still get EXP, no matter what. I absolutely hate it when PCs run away from a fight that I know, and I know that they know, that they can win.
Mister Mayhem 11-30-03, 04:10 AM	I wouldn't bother with that last point. After all, the purpose here isn't to gain XP, its to make your DM realise he is wasting everybody's time by having his NPCs do everything for you. Although, in truth, it has come to that, why not just (a) quit and take the other players with you or (b) talk to him.
Demon Lightfoot 12-01-03, 09:08 AM	Very early on in my gaming experience, every DM had a handful of uber pet DMPCs (or worse, used a PC of theirs in that capacity...). We had a very loose style back in the beginning, with people taking over the DM reins when our primary DM got fed up, but we'd all use the same "world" and the same PCs. Bad, bad, bad. People were tempted (and gave in to that temptation) to give their own PCs or special pet NPCs totally-kewl gear and have their special pet NPCs dominate the game. We'd have goofy stuff happening like someone note-DMing with a couple of other players something that happened after the current dungeon...while we were playing through the current dungeon. *shudder* But the all-powerful, scene-stealing NPCs were the worst; leading the PCs around by the nose, wiping out opponents with a flick of the wrist, with the most l33t stuff...once, we were treated to a battle where two freaking deities battled it out before us; we were give the blow-by-blow, full of descriptions of how awesome it all was. Meh. Such characters have to be compensatory for something, but frankly, I wouldn't give a rat's ass. Kill the DMPC as viciously and graphically as you possibly can; really rub his nose in it. If he retaliates or runs off crying, ditch him and have someone else, with fewer issues, take over the game. Glock-9mm: That was a thing of beauty.
Dirichlet 12-01-03, 07:58 PM	Glock, that story made my day. Every DM who has ever run a DMPC should have that happen to them. Would make the gaming world a better place.
Phist 12-01-03, 11:01 PM	My group actually has a very good system: We take turns being the DM. Every week its a different person, and everyone plays when they aren't DMing. Of course some people are better than others and some have been banned from DMing for horrible adventures and general unpreparedness. eg. "Okay, this guy weighs tons of pounds" But the system generally works very well. If one DM makes pet NPCs like yours did, he gets to watch the next DM kill them in horrible ways. And you can be sure of getting fair amounts of XP because if you gypp someone then you can't expect to get a lot in their adventure.
Addi83 12-02-03, 01:16 PM	I sometimes make powerful DMPCs, most of the time the are pretty powerful, compared to the PCs, but also, most of the time they either aren't around much, or I specifically design the situation so that the PCs can defeat them. Like once I made a lvl 16 wizard (while my players were around lvl4), he was neutral, and was a reoccuring background character. He had an unexplained interest in this evil party. And the players could pay him to identify, or for a lot more hire him to help in a battle, if they were lucky enough to run into him before a battle. Once, I had the evil party play a mini adventure designed for a good group. (in which a good deity influences a good aligned party to stop by a town and solve it's problems), but I had the evil players arrive shortly before the good party. Naturally, they fixed whatever problems offered rewards, and then killed the mayor and a few others for more 'rewards'. I had set up a rather powerful good party, including a paladin that was in fact responding to the deities influence, but arrived too late. When they hear of the actions of the PCs, they set out to hunt them down. The good party was more powerful then the PCs, but with the aid of the NPC wizard mentioned earlier, they were able to get the heroes off their backs (the only non-petrified or dead hero was the paladins halfling fighter squire, who would have come back later for revenge had the campaign lasted, and probably arrange for his master to be un-petrified). Powerful NPCs, or even DMPCs are ok, so long as you remember that the PCs are the main characters.
Dirichlet 12-02-03, 01:25 PM	Originally posted by Addi83 I sometimes make powerful DMPCs, most of the time the are pretty powerful, compared to the PCs, but also, most of the time they either aren't around much, or I specifically design the situation so that the PCs can defeat them. Like once I made a lvl 16 wizard (while my players were around lvl4), he was neutral, and was a reoccuring background character. He had an unexplained interest in this evil party. And the players could pay him to identify, or for a lot more hire him to help in a battle, if they were lucky enough to run into him before a battle. Once, I had the evil party play a mini adventure designed for a good group. (in which a good deity influences a good aligned party to stop by a town and solve it's problems), but I had the evil players arrive shortly before the good party. Naturally, they fixed whatever problems offered rewards, and then killed the mayor and a few others for more 'rewards'. I had set up a rather powerful good party, including a paladin that was in fact responding to the deities influence, but arrived too late. When they hear of the actions of the PCs, they set out to hunt them down. The good party was more powerful then the PCs, but with the aid of the NPC wizard mentioned earlier, they were able to get the heroes off their backs (the only non-petrified or dead hero was the paladins halfling fighter squire, who would have come back later for revenge had the campaign lasted, and probably arrange for his master to be un-petrified). Powerful NPCs, or even DMPCs are ok, so long as you remember that the PCs are the main characters. See, all the examples you gave are not (to my understanding of the term) DMPCs. Just normal NPCs as you would expect to find in any game. It is of course fine and even expected that certain persons (usually most persons) in the game world are more powerful than the players. I think of the difference roughly as follows: NPC: Any entity not controlled by a player. EG: the wizard and "good" party you mentioned above. DMPC: A subset of NPCs who roughly fit the following criteria: 1) Go on adventures with the party as frequently as any of the player characters 2) Are not a follower or cohort of one of the player characters Basicially, the DMPC is treated as just another player character.... except it is run by the DM. This is a vile vile vile vile thing.
Ferran Reidock 12-02-03, 09:23 PM	Seems to me that back in the 2nd Edition era I read a lot of articles and DM guidebooks that more or less encouraged the pet NPC. The advice usually went something like "If you make the PCs the main characters of your story they will likely mess it up, so you should have NPCs be the main characters and keep the PCs on the sidelines or in supporting roles." This sort of advice was very common and it was just assumed that NPCs were needed to 'keep the party on track' (read: railroad them).