Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MonkeyKing 06-01-05, 07:49 AM	I was going to call this the 'DnD and beer' thread but I didn't want to discriminate against other alcoholic beverages. There have been a couple of instances recently where the issue of beer and dnd has been brought up. It seems that while some enjoy a tasty tipple at the dnd table others do not and the issue has caused much 'off-topic' debate. Well here is a forum to voice your opinions on the subject without fear of the dreaded padlock! Do you feel that alcohol adds to your gaming experience? Does it lower your inhibitions or those of others facilitating much livelier roleplaying or does it stifle gameplay and lead to distraction? Would you never even consider having alcohol at you table or like The Man From Uncle do you believe that no social occasion is complete without it? Personally I find a well poured pot of ale to be among the finer things in life, a pleasure in which I regularly indulge. I don't tend to drink too often during dnd however, sometimes due to driving commitments but often because I don't feel the urge. I will on occasion have one or two but this is mostly because, while Uncle is quite content drinking alone; I like to think it makes him feel better when he's not the only one! With that said, let's hear from the rest of you... Cheers :pint:
Santrilla 06-01-05, 08:00 AM	I honestly think that if I played D&D drunk I'd just giggle a lot and nothing would get done. I imagine the rest of my party feels the same way.
Leap 06-01-05, 08:13 AM	DnD when drunk is crap IME....but a little bit of wine/beer is a whole other matter :D
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 06-01-05, 09:02 AM	I have run a few "Beer and Pretzels Campaigns", but I enjoyed the sessions better when everyone was able to think clearly. So, IMHO it's a matter of intent (of everyone inbibing) and quantity. My dad always said,"Martinis are like eyes, son. One just isn't right and three is just plain strange." :confused:
LCD2YOU 06-01-05, 09:10 AM	There's beer, and then there's p!$$ water like Bud, Coors, Fosters to name a few. I like to have a "4 pack" of Boddington's, Guiness, Murphy's, Bellhaven or other great beers/ales/stouts over a period of around 9 hours. However, that is only when I am playing. Still, if I drink them too fast, I do note that my perception and decision making abilities as both a person and as my character go straight to pot. As a DM, I rarely if ever have a drink, save UNSWEET ICED TEA
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 10:13 AM	Honestly....do we have to start something like this up? I can predict where it's going. Here, lemme do my WizO impersonation: *click* Pretty good, huh?
Damien_Hiro 06-01-05, 10:59 AM	Our group never drank during D&D until recently and I have to say I have enjoyed most of the games. Sometimes it is good to get a good beer or seven in during a session, but I have yet to see anyone get drunk during a game. We drink socially and D&D is a social activity. As a bonus two of the guys in our group brew their own beer, so we get to taste all sorts of beer. Personally I am a Corona, with lime and tequila man, but I also enjoy Guiness.
Santrilla 06-01-05, 11:01 AM	Honestly....do we have to start something like this up? I can predict where it's going. Here, lemme do my WizO impersonation: *click* Pretty good, huh? Frankly, I don't see why this would be locked. It's a simple question about people's D&D habits. As long as people don't get ratty about the subject, we should be okay.
punching bag 06-01-05, 11:04 AM	I recently started a thread about a bad experience that I had at a game. I also mentioned that I had brought some beer. Much debate ensued and the thread was locked for going off topic. This one might be off to the wasteland too.
Santrilla 06-01-05, 11:09 AM	I recently started a thread about a bad experience that I had at a game. I also mentioned that I had brought some beer. Much debate ensued and the thread was locked for going off topic. This one might be off to the wasteland too. Well, this time let's all stay on topic and keep the debate to a minimum (or in PMs). :P
Giantslayer 06-01-05, 11:31 AM	Some players drink cola, I drink my Stouts. In my case, it helps me unwind after the day at work (we usually play fridays, then hit the clubs/party saturday), and allow me to easier get into character and roleplay proper, shutting off the real world so to speak. When someone says they drink and game at the same time, how come people automaticly seem to assume that they play "**** drunk"?? Cya -Me
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 11:54 AM	Frankly, I don't see why this would be locked. It's a simple question about people's D&D habits. As long as people don't get ratty about the subject, we should be okay. Well it will get ratty if a select few step in. I've got no problem with beer at the table. My current group doesn't drink, and it works out famously for us. If they did? We'd probably do just as well. Some people wanna preach though, ya feel me?
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:01 PM	*steps in* D&D and Alcohol, degrading both player and the game to outside observers, reducing it to association of revelry and impeded sensory functions.
Vercingetorix 06-01-05, 12:12 PM	Does it lower your inhibitions...?Exactly that. :) I don't feel any different after a drink, but I'm told I become a lot more sociable. Funny stuff, eh?
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:14 PM	I wonder how much more sociable and presented you guys would be without the brew :rolleyes:
babysamurai 06-01-05, 12:15 PM	*steps in* D&D and Alcohol, degrading both player and the game to outside observers, reducing it to association of revelry and impeded sensory functions. I think that's a slightly black&white and juvenile way of looking at it. How old are you?
Santrilla 06-01-05, 12:15 PM	*steps in* D&D and Alcohol, degrading both player and the game to outside observers, reducing it to association of revelry and impeded sensory functions. Well, first off, how often do you have people observing you play D&D? :P Secondly, just because some people choose to drink while playing D&D doesn't mean the two will become inextricably linked in the eyes of Joe Public. Point of reference: the Dead Ale Wives / 8 Bit Theatre D&D mp3/cartoon, which produces a stereotypical depiction of a D&D group, features cheetos and mountain dew in place of alcohol. And thirdly, we're fully aware of how you feel about alcohol consumption but let's suppress any particularly strong animosty about it so the thread stays open, kay? :)
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:18 PM	How bout not, just because everyone will come in and laugh, everyone will come in and make light of it, doesn't mean i'm going to abandon my position on alcohol. Got that straight? So say what you will, but i'm still on the idea that drinking, or drinking with D&D in the long run is no boon to the body, and proves the point that some are incapable of otherwise relaxing or letting loose(without the aid of a popular chemical)
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 12:22 PM	I would like to seize this opportunity and point out my powers of precognition. If there is any doubt, see post #12.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:24 PM	You're not precognitive, simply understand me well. Don't pack your crystal ball for the road yet Draco.
babysamurai 06-01-05, 12:24 PM	How bout not, just because everyone will come in and laugh, everyone will come in and make light of it, doesn't mean i'm going to abandon my position on alcohol. Got that straight? So say what you will, but i'm still on the idea that drinking, or drinking with D&D in the long run is no boon to the body, and proves the point that some are incapable of otherwise relaxing or letting loose(without the aid of a popular chemical) You definitely need to relax, judgement is a terrible thing. But then again you're like 13 years old or something.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:26 PM	10 actually. Maybe you need to realize that you're too complacent, too willing to buy into the bottle as a crux, as something to fall back on. I don't see why you hold fast to the ideal that drink is something nice, something enticing to confide in.
The Listener 06-01-05, 12:28 PM	Watch the insults, folks, lets keep this debate civil. Here's a thought: Caffiene, as in coffee and mountain dew, affect you physically and mentally, yet I think I DM better while under the influence of caffeine because I can keep the pace of combat up while juggling through papers and numbers. Good or bad? Shade of Grey?
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:31 PM	caffeine aside, high in sugar and low on nutrients. "Empty calories" Those are a few reasons i don't drink soda. Also, if you look around, in a society that is fast paced, quick and easy, on the move, it's easy to fall into chemical dependencies, be it alcohol, soda, cigarettes, or other forms of drugs. People simply find it harder to draw on internal resevoirs of endurance, stamina and clarity (to relax), but suddenly it becomes easier with a drunk, or puff.
babysamurai 06-01-05, 12:39 PM	10 actually. Maybe you need to realize that you're too complacent, too willing to buy into the bottle as a crux, as something to fall back on. I don't see why you hold fast to the ideal that drink is something nice, something enticing to confide in. I never said that I myself drink, I just don't think you should go around judging others if they want to have a beer while they play, or vodka and chicken wings for that matter, as long as they do not harm another human being it's none of your business ;) .
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 12:41 PM	You're not precognitive, simply understand me well. Don't pack your crystal ball for the road yet Draco. Crystal ball? Bah. They're for charlatans and hoodwinkers. I prefer TimeCube's methods of enlightnment. TimeCube.com. Learn it, live it, love it! (The guy is whack.) As someone who's not currently involved in this heated, oft-repeated debate, I would like give a friendly reminder out to you guys. Get too snippy and the WizOs will lock this down tighter than Fort Knox. Then another one will get started. Viscious cycle. See ya.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:41 PM	Didn't say that, but they are harming themselves, and people's quality of life would be higher or less constrained if they didn't drink.
Santrilla 06-01-05, 12:44 PM	Mmkay, well, don't say I didn't try. Azar, you're perfectly entitled to your position on alcohol, and perfectly entitled to express it in the right place. However, this thread is based on an assumption, that alcohol consumption is an acceptable form of relaxation and enjoyment. Evidently you don't agree with that assumption and that's fine, but arguing against the assumption will only get the thread locked. Why not leave it open for people who agree with the assumption to discuss the thread's topic? Simply shake your head with a knowing sigh and move on, leaving us capitalist piglets to get on with our sordid, drunken lives. :)
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:47 PM	That which is popular is not always right, and that which is right, is not always popular. I'm not stating that is solely the reason which I continue to argue, but you must admit the idea holds merit.
Yak of Darkness 06-01-05, 12:49 PM	I'm the only one who drinks in one of my groups. Everything works out fine. In another one of my groups, we almost always pick up a few bottles of wine before a gaming session. Everything works out fine. Huzzah! :pint:
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:53 PM	Yea, but your body suffers in the end, no matter how small. Hey, i'm glad you keep things toned down, but it doesn't diminish the fact people everywhere would be better off without it.
Lord Schpungus 06-01-05, 12:58 PM	Drunk roleplaying is terrible, as evidenced by our Kobolds Ate My Baby drinking game. It just boils down to being stupid and not roleplaying after a while. Why get out the dice if you're not going to use them? You also get into trouble when your DM whose mind is hardwired 2e starts giving out hundreds of thousands of xp in 3rd, hearkening back to the 2e xp tables. Having a drink of the softer alcohols while socializing with your friends who are also having, well, that's all well and good. I heartily approve. Stay away from the hard stuff, though, because that path leads to drunken roleplaying, which, as we have learned, is dumb and idiotic. As for the 10 year old, while I think your conviction and typing skills are above agerage, you've still got 11 years (Stateside, 8 in any place sane) to become acclimated to society and perhaps change your mind about being so straight edge. If not, that's cool, too.
The Listener 06-01-05, 01:01 PM	Free will > personal harm. Alchohol may not be the best for your body, but if some people perfer to drink, then that is their choice, and I feel that it is not in anyone's best interest to interfere.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:01 PM	I'm not literally 10, i said that to feed his ego that you can tack on a number,or some other situation onto another individual to belittle or discredit their opinion. I don't mind living partially as a straight edge, because i'm used to it . I don't need alcohol to have a good time, or relax. I can wait till marriage to let myself loose, when I can confide in my partner of whom I love, rather than lust after. The risk simply isn't worth it.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:03 PM	Adamantly sticking to your "it's ok to do stupid or harmful things because it's free will" arguement is flawed in oh-so many ways, it's no justification for doing things which are obviously harmful or not-beneficial. When you begin to stick to your "right" in face of things which don't aid you or otherwise detriment you, then perhaps you should take another look on your view.
babysamurai 06-01-05, 01:13 PM	Adamantly sticking to your "it's ok to do stupid or harmful things because it's free will" arguement is flawed in oh-so many ways, it's no justification for doing things which are obviously harmful or not-beneficial. When you begin to stick to your "right" in face of things which don't aid you or otherwise detriment you, then perhaps you should take another look on your view. Relax Francis... :D
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:15 PM	Relax Charles.
mcnoo 06-01-05, 01:16 PM	I find an ale or two (and yes I mean ale, I have the drinking preferences of a fifty year old morris dancer) throughout the game makes it much more enjoyable, but then again, I'm a student, a trip to to shops is considered an event worthy of a few cold ones. Lighty tipsyness brings out my better roleplaying side, but i agree that drunk roleplaying is something to be avoided at all costs. Then again, everyone knows americans can't hold thier drink.... *hides in a corner to avoid flaming because he knows americans don't get sarcasm either*
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:18 PM	Are you Scottish or Irish?
babysamurai 06-01-05, 01:19 PM	Relax Charles. Who is Charles? I was just trying to lighten the mood with a reference from the comedy film Stripes with Bill Murray and...why am I explaining this?
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:20 PM	Because not everyone gets every reference. ;)
Roreck 06-01-05, 01:20 PM	Azar we get your point you hate alcohol and everything else that harms the body fine you have posted you opinion and I for one don't care. your opinion is still valid however I personally don't agree with it and I think I am not the minority on this one. now back to the original topic: Drinking has never been a part of my dnd groups (other than our characters) although almost everyone has caffine or sugar in some way (one group meets at night another in the morning either way everyone is a little tired). I am only 19 and my first group is all of the same age so alcohol is obviously not present (man does the US suck) my second group meets in a gaming store where alcohol IMO would be not be apropriate although everyone in that group is old enough to drink except me. And if anyone in either group decided to have a beer or other lightly alcoholic beverage I would be fine but I would not partake. oh and in case you are wondering I have had alcohol in the past and I have been drunk and I can tell you having one beer will not cloud your judgement but have 3 shots of liquor will. So as for my take on the DND with alcohol issue drinking alcohol is ok but getting drunk is not.
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 01:23 PM	Well as the Monkeyking so happily pointed out, I am probably the guy who enjoys a beer most at our table. In fact I enjoy it....pretty much at any table. I do try keep myself sober enough to play though. If i drink more than 5 cans during a 4 hours session that would be an exception. But a beer an hour for 4 hours.....that seems like a fair balance. The only times I ever get a bit (how to phrase this)....'bolloxed', is when we are playing from 11am to 2am. But in those instances I am not the only one drinking quite a lot. You see, to me, alcohol was created, not to tempt mankind, but to inspire them (and there are more examples in history than you can shake a stick at). As those who have read my posts are no doubt aware, I can be rather outspoken and opinionated, but I rarely make ill-founded comments and when I do I tend to apologise (I use the clause in my contract about being human). So far I have found that I am not damaged because of this lovely honey coloured liquid (though this evening I have been supping a delightful 2001 Labuzan to celebrate my girlfriend’s acceptance at Cambridge to do a research degree. She will outstrip me yet! (Not a word Monkeyking Phd!)) and in fact I would say it, in no small way, enhances a number of, what could be, otherwise mundane events. DnD of course does not really fit into this category, my love there is unquestionably of the game. However it is also a social event and I can't lie about not enjoying a few beers with friends. Having said that, outside of my casuistic reasoning concerning beer and DnD, I also know that its very creator enjoys a beer or two while DMing (at least when someone else is buying) so I am quite sure that the two were not designed to be inherently incompatible. (I have never played with Gary Gygax, but I have a beer with him and chatted about it). I would imagine that DMing after more than 3 or 4 pints might become tricky in a high combat adventure, but for most social stuff (which, for many of us, is what it is all about) the DM should be able to keep up with the players. Our DM will sometimes have a few beers on a school night, but he doesn't mind getting stuck in if there is no alarm clock the next morning. I'd say that on the whole, within our group at least, beer can, and does, work like grease and helps inspire characters to come alive and not just be numbers on a page. I notice that our one 'anti-drink' spokesperson is also a club card member of the 'Wizard of Oz' school of roleplay ( see this thread for details http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=439183 ) .....I am sure there is no real connection but it’s an interesting observation none the less. Having said that he is too young to drink and in a few years time (is he really only 10? He types like at least a 14-15 year old) perhaps his ways and opinions will change. Anyway I am starting to dissemble. How do other people feel?
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:26 PM	:uh-huh: Don't fall too much in love with that amber liquid, that concoction of crushed grain. :cool:
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 01:27 PM	I live in China....no grain in my beer
TheUnknownZombie 06-01-05, 01:30 PM	I used to have a drink or two at games, but now, alas I have to drive. Drunken roleplaying is bad, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying a social drink or two at a game.
green_yawgmoth 06-01-05, 01:35 PM	I'm a big fan of "don't knock it 'til you try it." If you've never had alcohol, you should not try to comment on its effects on people, because everyone is different in how they react. Some people hold their alcohol well, and I would game with them no matter how much they've had. Others get completely smashed on a couple shots and turn into raging idiots. Of course, some people turn into raging idiots without alcohol, and all they need is the right social trigger (like perhaps a certain topic of conversation), and those people are the ones I try to keep as far from me as possible. As for my drinking and gaming habits, I like a little sake in my Lime Diet Coke; it adds a little edge that I enjoy. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:35 PM	If you want to believe that, regardless of the harm it can do. True, HOWEVER , if a person has problems, such as "raging" like you said, the problem lies within, and trying to remedy it with alcohol is no solution.
TheUnknownZombie 06-01-05, 01:37 PM	If you want to believe that, regardless of the harm it can do. Too much of anything can do harm. Alcohol is not harmful in moderation.
Sinaz 06-01-05, 01:37 PM	It's funny... my first and most natural answer would be that "yes, I'd enjoy a nice double fermented ale, or a glass of wine while playing D&D." But come to think of it... I haven't really had the oppurtunity. The last gaming group I played in had my buddy's daughter playing, so we stuck to cookies and lemonade. The gaming group before that I was in the Army and we simply couldn't drink in the barracks, and we weren't going to brave the wind at the pavillion. The gaming group before that, we played so late, that we all opted not to drink since we'd have to drive home tired (and definitely didn't want add 'under the influence' to that.) But, if I were hosting a D&D party, I would definitely have some hefferwiesen or white ale on hand (god that white ale is great.) And, hell, pouring a pint while roleplaying in a tavern would be mighty fun. On the otherhand, I could see being drunk waayyyy too distracting. But a little buzz to keep you loose so you don't feel so foolish trying to mimic the voice of a water nymph sounds kind of ideal. And on the subject of all this preaching - although there are people out there who drink to drown thier life away with cheap domestic party packs, they really are missing out on the exceptional taste and body of a fine double fermented ale, a rich and creamy stout, or a hoppy weiss... tastes that work best when consumed with, responsibility, moderation, and appreciation to savor the flavor (and a brat or some hot links to go a long with it.) And though people may have the right to form thier own opinions and speak them - there's a level of social grace and respect to be had for people that differ with your views and keep thier mind on thier own business. And finally, a little FYI for some people on this board: it's really BAD FORM to IM people from this forum to harrass them about thier drinking habits- especially considering most of us don't know any other member from a random stranger. I'm not going to name names, but you know who you are. And for that particular member - if I have to ban anymore IM aliases, I'm going to take this up again with the WotC moderators and the abuse channels of the IM providers.
babysamurai 06-01-05, 01:38 PM	I'm a big fan of "don't knock it 'til you try it." If you've never had alcohol, you should not try to comment on its effects on people, because everyone is different in how they react. Some people hold their alcohol well, and I would game with them no matter how much they've had. Others get completely smashed on a couple shots and turn into raging idiots. Of course, some people turn into raging idiots without alcohol, and all they need is the right social trigger (like perhaps a certain topic of conversation), and those people are the ones I try to keep as far from me as possible. As for my drinking and gaming habits, I like a little sake in my Lime Diet Coke; it adds a little edge that I enjoy. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Yes, my brother happens to be partial to a nice glass of Port with a strong yet creamy Stilton.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:39 PM	As for your "don't knock it till you try it" that is utter nonsense is oh so many cases, INCLUDING alcohol. :rolleyes:
Sinaz 06-01-05, 01:41 PM	As for my drinking and gaming habits, I like a little sake in my Lime Diet Coke; it adds a little edge that I enjoy. Whoa... sake in lime diet coke?? I gotta try that.
Mr. Leet 06-01-05, 01:44 PM	I can have a hard time relaxing properly when DMing, and I some times get nervous (Or did, the few times I DMed in the past). I'm going to DM again, a long time since last time I tried, and some of the players can be a bit... Quiet, and not dare to RP their character to the best of their ability, because they feel slightly silly when RPing. I have asked them if they maybe wanna have a beer or two while playing, because I personaly think it will help them relax and not hold back, and they agreed. So, we're gonna try it once, and see how it goes. If it works, then fine. We'll maybe continue doing it. We are all experienced with alcohol, and we know that getting shitfaced playing PnP is not a good idea, so I think it will work out fine. Yes, I'm 16 and still too young to drink, but I live in Norway, and underage drinking is not really "illegal" or a problem here, my parents are cool with it, and I don't drink often. :cool: So spare me the comments.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:46 PM	I'm just sad that you'd have to resort to drinking to relax, that's all :weep:
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 01:50 PM	Yes, my brother happens to be partial to a nice glass of Port with a strong yet creamy Stilton. I learned how to drink port at the age of 11, across the pond. They also instill an appreciation for excellent cheeses in their kids over there too. At that same age, the friends I made over in England were throwing around gourmet cheese names with the same casuality that American kids talk about Go-Gurt and Poptarts.
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 01:51 PM	You know, i've been out in this neck of the woods for nearly 8 months and despite going to a dozen or more Japanese places to eat I've not tried sake, let alone with diet coke. I do recommend, in small doses, the Chinese white spirits (Moutai is the best). They range from 38-55% proof and certainly have a lot in common with scotch, but there something distinctive about them that makes them very compatable with a big meal (or an extended Dnd session where pizza is ordered half way through)
WolfSong 06-01-05, 02:02 PM	Whoa... sake in lime diet coke?? I gotta try that. That one got my attention too. But I think I'm out of Sake at home. In my ever so humble opinion, the whole alcohol at games question really comes down to the people. Do you have people who can responsibly drink and account for their own actions? Are they going to cause problems (or lack of enjoyment) for any of the other people at the game? We drink at my groups' games; sometimes beer, sometimes wine, sometimes anything we want. If you have people who won't be able to handle their drink responsibly, then you need to act accordingly - either don't drink at the game or kick them out. As for naysayers, it also boils down to one question - Why do you play D&D? Is it for enjoyment? Most likely. Thats why most people drink, they enjoy it. Everything has a cost associated with it, and those of us who drink are willing to accept the cost associated with drinking.
Dragontooth 06-01-05, 02:18 PM	I don't think its an issue if someone relaxes with a brew, or other alcoholic drink as long as they don't get drunk at the table. Funny Both Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Winsten Churchill both drank regularly. And both men were leaders vs a terror that was trying to take over the world. That same terror Hitler was an avid non-drinker. Would never drink anything with alcohol in it. Wonders which group PA would try to elimate if he was a head of state.
Roreck 06-01-05, 02:22 PM	oh just so we are all clear Dragontooth:1 prince azar:0
Sinaz 06-01-05, 02:23 PM	oh just so we are all clear Dragontooth:1 prince azar:0 I second that.
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 02:36 PM	Funny Both Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Winsten Churchill both drank regularly. And both men were leaders vs a terror that was trying to take over the world. That same terror Hitler was an avid non-drinker. Would never drink anything with alcohol in it. Wonders which group PA would try to elimate if he was a head of state. Hitler was also a strict vegetarian. Those darnHippies........... :shifty: Cartman is right.
Sinaz 06-01-05, 02:40 PM	So steering this convo back into the notion of "beer and pretzels gaming" ...
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 02:43 PM	So steering this convo back into the notion of "beer and pretzels gaming" ... Actually, the farther we deviated from that, the better off I'm sure everyone would be. Have you read the last 50ish posts?
mcnoo 06-01-05, 03:18 PM	Does prince azar sound to anyone else far too much like the stereotype "D&d is against my religion so I will naysay everything said in it's favour" type we all know and love? PA, sure, you've got views, feel free to share, but don't take this whole thread personally. What's you actual basis for the whole non drinking thing? Religion? Personal experience? Maybe if you actually give us some sort of reason for this whole moral standpoint of yours people will start taking you seriously. Try and have a discussion, not just throw quotes and variants of "it's just wrong" at us. Whatever past experience you've had to give you these opinions, remember that we've not had this startling revelation, so please enlighten us. If there's no experience and these are just your views, then perhaps you could appreciate that we're experienced in these matters and you're, for want of a less insulting phrase, niaive. None of this is intended as an accusation or an inult, so please don't interpret it that way, sorry if some it comes across as a little patronising, but I can't be arsed to put the effort in to make a perfectly diplomatically worded post.
kam_Islash 06-01-05, 04:16 PM	I have ADD, so alcohol actually makes it easier to focus for me. I am partial to Guinness. No other beer will do! I will have tequila if there are also oysters on the half shell. ///
NinjaGarret 06-01-05, 04:33 PM	I could never do the beer and DnD thing. For one, I can NOT hold my alcohol. :( Two, the only alcoholic beverage I like is Vodka. And even in moderation, I can not play DnD with that in my system. :P
Damien_Hiro 06-01-05, 04:47 PM	I could never do the beer and DnD thing. For one, I can NOT hold my alcohol. :( Two, the only alcoholic beverage I like is Vodka. And even in moderation, I can not play DnD with that in my system. :P You could play with a little bit of vodka mixed with cranberry juice or oj. I like to sip on a beer while playing. Being drunk and trying to figure if you hit something is hard. I have only been tipsy once, while Dming, never playing, but I do not think the players noticed until they killed a ancient gold pile for its red dragon treasure. Good times though.
Gedrin 06-01-05, 05:01 PM	Mostly, my group drives to the game, so there's not a lot of drinking. The most notable drinking event at the game was when the guy who was acting as the notetaker had bin drunking an th werz stated feddddding a...
josephreese 06-01-05, 05:45 PM	For those old enough to do so legally, try an Aviation Cocktail sometime: 1 oz fresh lemon juice 1.5 oz gin A splash or two of maraschino liqueur (The Luxardo brand can be found somewhat easily. For those not familiar with maraschino liqueur, it's not the sticky-sweet red syrup you might expect. It is a clear liqueur made from cherries, and it is both slightly sweet and slightly tart.) Shake with ice and serve up in a cocktail glass. If you're in the mood, add a blush by garnishing with a cherry.
Santrilla 06-01-05, 05:58 PM	Try an Aviation Cocktail sometime: 1 oz fresh lemon juice 1.5 oz gin A splash or two of maraschino liqueur (The Luxardo brand can be found somewhat easily. For those not familiar with maraschino liqueur, it's not the sticky-sweet red syrup you might expect. It is a clear liqueur made from cherries, and it is both slightly sweet and slightly tart.) Shake with ice and serve up in a cocktail glass. If you're in the mood, add a blush by garnishing with a cherry. You know, that doesn't sound all that bad. Last Christmas I discovered a cocktail called a Bogey- ginger beer, lime cordial and vodka. Sounds vile, but it's actually not bad. D&D with cocktails would just be ridiculous, though. Take the fact that we're all giggly nerds anyway, add copious amounts of alcohol and the oppurtunity for jokes about 'screaming orgasms' and 'sex on the beach', and you've got one hell of a night. :eek:
josephreese 06-01-05, 06:26 PM	You know, that doesn't sound all that bad. Last Christmas I discovered a cocktail called a Bogey- ginger beer, lime cordial and vodka. Sounds vile, but it's actually not bad. D&D with cocktails would just be ridiculous, though. Take the fact that we're all giggly nerds anyway, add copious amounts of alcohol and the oppurtunity for jokes about 'screaming orgasms' and 'sex on the beach', and you've got one hell of a night. :eek: ginger beer and lime cordial, eh? Sounds... interesting. I don't usually like to mix with vodka, but I'll gather the ingredients and give it a go sometime. Thanks for the tip.
Santrilla 06-01-05, 06:40 PM	ginger beer and lime cordial, eh? Sounds... interesting. I don't usually like to mix with vodka, but I'll gather the ingredients and give it a go sometime. Thanks for the tip. Heh, anytime. I accept no responsibility if you despise it and it makes you throw up, though. Remember kids: don't drink until you're 18. (Or 21 over in the states, or whatever the drinking age is where you live.)
HiQKid 06-01-05, 07:02 PM	I see no problem with drinking + rolelaying (Though I don't drink, as I am underage). A problem arises in certain cases, however, when it can be detrimental. For example, my group's dm misses games because he is hungover, has trouble concentrating during games, and tends to come up with half-baked adventures... Ruining our game in general... So, it is a situational thing.
Sinaz 06-01-05, 07:04 PM	Remember kids: don't drink until you're 18. (Or 21 over in the states, or whatever the drinking age is where you live.) Drinking age in the states is 18 so long as you have a driver's license and live near the border. ;)
Santrilla 06-01-05, 07:04 PM	Heh, I once offered to make my hungover DM breakfast and coffee if he'd come over and Dm for us. It was a damned good breakfast too.
mcnoo 06-01-05, 07:29 PM	I see no problem with drinking + rolelaying (Though I don't drink, as I am underage). I miss being young enough to tell that lie. I've been drinking since i was 15, since 13 technically if you count the beer or wine with meals and the brandy/whiskey/cocktail afterwards that my parents gave me. They go by the idea that teaching drinking from a relatively young age teaches responsibility, and I have to say it's worked. I was never actually drunk until i was 15, almost 16. God I love the lax English atitude to alcohol. It's given me the alcohol tolerance of an hippo. (read: lots) Speaking of which, I'm somewhat drunk at the moment, hence the rambling on and on. I have an excuse, it's the last week of term so I've been gay clubbing, which i do far too much for a straight guy. *realises quite how much he's rambling and stops.....now*
Santrilla 06-01-05, 07:41 PM	I miss being young enough to tell that lie. I've been drinking since i was 15, since 13 technically if you count the beer or wine with meals and the brandy/whiskey/cocktail afterwards that my parents gave me. They go by the idea that teaching drinking from a relatively young age teaches responsibility, and I have to say it's worked. I was never actually drunk until i was 15, almost 16. God I love the lax English atitude to alcohol. It's given me the alcohol tolerance of an hippo. (read: lots) Speaking of which, I'm somewhat drunk at the moment, hence the rambling on and on. I have an excuse, it's the last week of term so I've been gay clubbing, which i do far too much for a straight guy. *realises quite how much he's rambling and stops.....now* Too much gay clubbing? Darling, that's an oxymoron. :P Yeah, my upbringing was somewhat similar. My parents are pretty much raging alcoholics, and I probably had my first drink when I was... 15 maybe? Heh, I remember in Year 11 we used to have these craaazzzyyyy parties every weekend where our whole group of friends (about 5-15 of us, usually) would go around someone's house and get really drunk - which for us didn't take much. Ahh, good times. Tbh I think you (and your parents) were probably right about the responsibility thing. These days, I very very rarely drink to excess; I can recognise when I'm starting to get drunk and I almost subconsciously stop drinking at that point. It's quite a gift. Although, it usually means I'm the only sober one left, which means I spend the night propping everybody else up. Oh well... Anyway. Dungeons and Dragons and Drinking. I think the reason our group doesn't is because we usually adventure in the afternoons, midday onwards, and it just feels wrong drinking that early. Ever hear of a dry hangover? THAT'S something I'd rather avoid.
MonkeyKing 06-01-05, 11:56 PM	I feel validated by all the positive response to this thread. There is some mixed opinion but the general consensus appears to be that alcohol, in moderation, is an acceptable part of the gaming experience. Certainly more so than sniffing glue before a big game but what can I say, it helps me concentrate! Some out there have even offered recommendations for specific beverages which may be sampled during or outside of DnD time. On that subject I would heartily recommend those who are so inclined to try to get their hands on some Coopers Sparkling Ale; possibly the finest drink in all of Australia. I also recommend you try Hoegaarden (a Belgian wheat beer) which I find both refreshing and flavoursome in equal measure. Failing both of these you can't go wrong with a nice pint of wife beater or the black stuff! Some quotes about drinking: Reality is an illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? --W.C. Fields When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. --Henny Youngman Work is the curse of the drinking class. --Oscar Wilde and for Prince Azar: Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. --Ambrose Bierce Happy drinking everyone :pint: Too much gay clubbing? Darling, that's an oxymoron. That's ****ing classic!
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 12:03 AM	Santrilla - 'I think the reason our group doesn't is because we usually adventure in the afternoons, midday onwards, and it just feels wrong drinking that early' Yeah, I have to say, even a hardened DnD sop like myself wouldn't drink much, if anything, if it was just an early afternoon session. Having said that if it was an all day/night session that started round midday I think I’d school myself to gently sup from 2-3pm onwards. It's an art of getting incrementally ever more drunk over the course of 12 hours or so. The plus side of this is that if you take an hour or two off, you sober up again pretty quick and as long as you don't speed up you tend to stay compos mentis. I feel sorry for HiQkid. If your DM is too hungover to play....harsh. It's all about prioritising. If you have DnD in the morning, don't get so smashed that you won't be up for it. (unless of course you’re a masochist like me who'll play, come hell or high hangover).
OpheliaWhispers 06-02-05, 01:03 AM	I don't mind living partially as a straight edge, because i'm used to it . I don't need alcohol to have a good time, or relax. Listen, you either ARE or AREN'T Straight Edge. There is no pertial to it. My sister is SE and I have a few friends who are, I know what I am talking about. So, you say you are "partially straight edge". What does that mean you do that harms your body to keep you from being entirely Straight Edge, I wonder? hmmmm.... Just a thought. We ALL do things to our bodies that are and are not good for them. Say a person induldges in ice cream, that isn't healthy, or smokes, or has some chocolate, takes a sleeping pill once, etc. NONE of those things are good for your body. They might have some good points to them as well, like chocolate for example. Or the occasional glass of wine is good for your heart. You get my drift. That is NO reason to rain on others parades that drink once in a while. It is their choice, their descision to make, and their body to harm (as you seem to see it). Get over what is going on in other peolpe's lives, stick to your own life and take a chill pill. OK, my rant is done. ::bows:: thank you all for listening :D
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:08 AM	Straight edge? It is such a common phrase that it even has an abbreviation? What does it mean?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:09 AM	Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. --Ambrose Bierce Yea...when someone quotes justification of something like heroin, or another bad pursuit, i'm sure that'll work just fine eh? :rolleyes: Twisting words around to attempt and discredit or belittle the abstainer only makes the imbiber appear more foolish, in my opinion. This along with "don't knock it till you try it" are some of the worse information you can dole out in relation to alcohol. Straight Edge- typically a person who doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, curse, acts responsible, waits for sex until marriage or until the one they truly love. A "straight edge" may do one of these, all of these, or a combination of the above.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:12 AM	PrinceAzar - 'Straight Edge- typically a person who does drink, smoke, do drugs, curse, acts responsible, waits for sex until marriage or until the one they truly love. A "straight edge" may do one of these, all of these, or a combination of the above.' Huh?
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:13 AM	ah, that makes more sense now.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 01:15 AM	Straight edge? It is such a common phrase that it even has an abbreviation? What does it mean? I think it's another term used to refer to homosexuals, as is my understanding...
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:17 AM	I am familiar with the concept. It's always sad to hear about it though, especially from one so young. Anyway, if it makes you happy, fair enough. Live and let live I say.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:19 AM	Come on treeswinger, leave the poor little fella alone. He's got enough problems without you teasing him. And I am sorry too PrinceAzar. I have been harsh with you in the past. I didn't know what you were going through. :)
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:20 AM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge Here is an idea of what it means, further. Though some ideals there don't apply to me, such as the spiritual or religous aspects. Nor did music play a role in my beliefs. Oh and, The Man From Uncle, since you are such a keen psycologist, please do divulge on my problems, you seem to know me so very well...
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:26 AM	Of course, some people turn into raging idiots without alcohol, and all they need is the right social trigger (like perhaps a certain topic of conversation), and those people are the ones I try to keep as far from me as possible. Sorry Yawgy, you're going to have to hide the bait better if you're going to catch any fish.
Roreck 06-02-05, 01:28 AM	Azar I have had enough of you. If you don't like alcohol don't do it and stop condeming people who drink it is their right to choose none of us are trying to shove alcohol down your throught so what is your problem!? For the love of Pelor we get it you hate alcohol and are a "straight edge" fine yippie for you but I don't want to be a "straight edge" (mostly because I find being gay to be much more fun :cool: ) and I don't think that choosing to drink makes anyone to be a bad person. I do think their is a difference between someone who drinks and someone who is an alcoholic. I do think alcoholics do need help and should stop drinking but that does not mean that drinking is bad for everyone because some people become addicted to it. and I highly doubt a few of age adults getting together to drink some beer or what have you and play dnd is really going to be the end of civilation or of their cause of death.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:33 AM	Azar I have had enough of you. If you don't like alcohol don't do it and stop condeming people who drink it is their right to choose none of us are trying to shove alcohol down your throught so what is your problem!? For the love of Pelor we get it you hate alcohol and are a "straight edge" fine yippie I ain't a yippie, boy, get your facts straight before you come down here and pick apart what i type. I think you've had one too many beers there, fella. And for starters, i didn't call myself a straight edge, but to some people here, the term would apply to me and doesn't merit quotation. :cool:
Roreck 06-02-05, 01:39 AM	umm yippie means congratulations wow someone failed a wisdom check and I don't drink beer yuck. Plus I am underage so I can only drink at college (my college is in the US too but it is college) and even than I only drink like one mixed drink once every two months at most so get your facts straight and listen I will pick and chose what I put in quotation marks weather it merits it or not
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:43 AM	umm yippie means congratulations wow someone failed a wisdom check and I don't drink beer yuck. Plus I am underage so I can only drink at college (my college is in the US too but it is college) and even than I only drink like one mixed drink once every two months at most so get your facts straight When you're going to state something in that connotation, place a comma, it helps seperate and differentiate the word. So it couldn't be misconstrued as anything else. Ah, you're right, i'll call it "vile brew" instead of beer, that suits it, and it's kin much better. :) Azar I have had enough of you. If you don't like alcohol don't do it and stop condeming people who drink it is their right to choose none of us are trying to shove alcohol down your throught so what is your problem!? For the love of Pelor we get it you hate alcohol and are a "straight edge" fine(insert comma here) yippie
Roreck 06-02-05, 01:47 AM	oh look mommy the judgemental prince is now correcting my grammer listen I study history not grammer cause frankly I don't care about grammer and most posters on this board don't either no one cares because the message still gets across oh and I am wondering what does it mean to you to be a yippie? considering you thought it was an insult what does it mean?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 01:50 AM	No, the message always doesn't, it can come out skewed and vague, even incorrect, as yours did. You needn't type with the perfection of an English paper, but keeping basic sentence structure and grammar are not stretches for most people on these boards.
Roreck 06-02-05, 01:56 AM	umm again someone would have to fail a wisdom check not to understand that and you know what I don't use proper grammer cause I HATE IT so what who cares. My grammer gets even worse when I am angry can you guess why I might be angry might now? I'll give you a hint his name on the WotC message boards is Prince Azar he is anoying and thinks he is better than people who choose to drink have sex (with people they are not married to or madly in love with) curse or drink soda edit: oh I left out the commas so you can have the fun of adding them in you seem to enjoy it so and to my previous question what is a yippie when taken as an insult?
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 01:58 AM	I ain't a yippie, boy, get your facts straight before you come down here and pick apart what i type. I think you've had one too many beers there, fella. And for starters, i didn't call myself a straight edge, but to some people here, the term would apply to me and doesn't merit quotation. :cool: Good for you, you've started an argument on a message board about D&D and alchohol by spouting your personal beliefs as if we should all agree with you and end our evi ways. Shoot, at this point, I'd be willing to play D&D and drink just so I'm not in the same group as you. I don't drink, but most/all of my friends do. I'm fine with them drinking in a social setting as long as I'm not harassed about not drinking. As far as gaming, if someone wanted to drink something in small ammounts, I wouldn't argue against it as long as they held their liqour well. Unlike some people, I'm at the very least tolerant of other's beliefs and will allow them to practice them as long as they are not doing harm to themselves or others by doing it.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 02:03 AM	For 10 years old he really is as bright as a button though. With age will come maturity. Depsite the fact he's a social nazi I'd be interested to play with him, even if just to see what he's like in reality. But we start play around 7pm....so I guess thats not really a runner.
Roreck 06-02-05, 02:04 AM	Asmodi :clap: :w00t: :cheer: :bow: :bow: Thank you I could not have put it better myself (lack of eloquence it runs in the family) and the man from uncle LOL is all I have to say right now
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:06 AM	Strike # 2 Roreck, I'll give you a hint his name on the WotC message boards is Prince Azar he is anoying and thinks he is better than people who choose to drink have sex (with people they are not married to or madly in love with) curse or drink soda Nowhere did i state i didn't curse, so please do point out where i said, I DO NOT. So far i've stated what a straight edge IS, and my stance on drinking, which I don't and do not tolerate. Once again, get your facts straight before you launch a wild offensive. Secondly, my name, PrinceAzar is both inspired after a video game, and used after i lost my old account, AzarKing, to denote creating a new account that wasn't the same as an old one.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:09 AM	Oh, and before I get jumped on for my statement about "as long as they are not doing harm to themselves or others by doing it." Harm is a subjective term. Therefore what I think is harm will probably be different from yours. This means that while you think the mere ingestion of a drink would be harmful, I won't. It so happens that next to everyone in this thread has agreed against that view. So here, now, in this thread, your definition of "harm" is out of place. Somewhere else and maybe some other time, we may adjust it towards your view. But not now. This endless argument and self-righteous preaching needs to end in a thread you've all but ruined with your selfish beliefs. Opinions are good. Feel free to express them. But if you cross the line into forcing your opinions on others, are you really better than those you are berating?
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 02:11 AM	Roreck - 'and to my previous question what is a yippie when taken as an insult?' I think it's a type of small dog. Could be wrong though. My specialty is apparently psychology not veterinary science.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:13 AM	Thats another ridiculous statement..if you THINK it's harmful? If we both are told to swig cans of poison (note, not directly calling alcohol, their drink, poison) i'm thinking it is harmful, you don't, you drink it, and you WILL be harmed. As with anything that acts on a smaller, slower scale that accrues over time, there is no difference(note: alcohol)
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:14 AM	So you've decided to completely ignore my post and focus on one sentence? gg you win the thread, go troll some other forum.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:16 AM	Just focusing on the most flawed part of it. GG, get a more solid defense.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 02:18 AM	Shoot, at this point, I'd be willing to play D&D and drink just so I'm not in the same group as you. Horay a convert!
Roreck 06-02-05, 02:18 AM	ok that makes asmodi 3 princeazar 0 while I was typing he scored again oh and what a horror it must have been to have seen that ill gotten space between prince and azar oh the horror, really that is the best you can attack me on misspelling your name and what happened to putting the comas where they belong uhh did that lose it's fun? and just what would you princeazar if when you finaly grow up and it is legal to have a drink one of your friends who is of age decides to drink (not to get drunk just drink) will you stop being their friend because they choose to drink the evil liquids. if so that shows what kind of person you really are someone who thinks they are better than everyone in the world because they choose not to do something. which is the biggest character flaw. I am glad I have never met anyone like you in rl and I hope I never do your kind is quite pathetic (and by your kind I mean those who are intolerant of others and think they are better than everyone else just for clarification because you seem to have difficulty understanding me)
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:21 AM	Thats another ridiculous statement..if you THINK it's harmful? If we both are told to swig cans of poison (note, not directly calling alcohol, their drink, poison) i'm thinking it is harmful, you don't, you drink it, and you WILL be harmed. As with anything that acts on a smaller, slower scale that accrues over time, there is no difference(note: alcohol) I will be harmed from YOUR point of view. Not mine. Not the posters in this thread. Edit: Asmodai = Male.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:25 AM	The biggest character flaw here is that you are taking an issue and applying to a world of beliefs, a world of ideals, those which we haven't touched on, those which we never brought up. You like to make big statements, suggestions concerning my character, NOT because you know me, NOT because you grew up with me, but because people who have came before me, and those that will come after, have been more widespread of their intolerances, be they good, evil, logical or illogical. We are focusing on the issue of alcohol and more precisely, alcohol and D&D here. Deciding not to drink, to keep a keener mind, and in the long run a healthier body is a good decision, no matter how you want to contort and twist that. Knowing other people would be similarily better off without it is a good thing as well. Pushing this onto others, the idea, isn't so evil. It looks bad, but only because the idea which i'm so against is popular, so well accorded and known that going against it seems terrible, and ignorant to you. I ask you this: considering all which you've fought for, wether or not you drink, or anyone else here does tonight, is it truly worth it? For a drink, for a quick pleasure, something which replaces far better methods of relaxation and downtime? You're doing nothing here but providing more ammunition against yourself, while i'm restating credible point after point. :cool:
Roreck 06-02-05, 02:25 AM	ok asmodi 4 prince 0 sorry about that confusing genders thing sorry and I hope mister sensitive gets annoyed cause I shortened his name and azar what makes you think you have the right to tell people what they can and cannot do. People have the right to make choices for themselves and no one can take that away from them. People eat fast food everyday and that is far more harmful than drinking a little alcohol once in a while and that is just common sense PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN DESCISIONS WHEATHER THEY MAKE THE RIGHT OR WRONG ONES IS NOT FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TO DECIDE YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND NO EVIL IS GREATER THAN THAT.
Koda77 06-02-05, 02:27 AM	Riverside GRAD 05!!!! WOOT poor princeazar would have had a bloody heart attack if he was there, and i agree with earlier points 1 or 2 beer you may not feel a diff but you do become more sociable and i welcome the small things that help me get into my characters mind a little more, also makes it better for those playing with me because im not to quiet to rp
foxbane 06-02-05, 02:27 AM	You know, I don't drink when I D&D, but the Prince is definitely pushing me towards that edge just so I'm don't get associated with him. :rolleyes: Come on, this is their thread, and judging from all the wrathful replies being successfully trolled, I don't see this thread likely to live for another day or two. People have a right to drink what they want. Is it harmful? Yes. So is breathing oxygen. (Oxygen is acidic and the cause of the lungs wearing down)
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:29 AM	Hey Foxbane, if you drink merely to get into the crowd and not be ridiculed, you're no different from most of the drinkers here. But that's your own grave to dig, not mine. Oh and Foxbane, try not breathing, see how you need that to live? You don't need that with alcohol, bad comparison.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:30 AM	Deciding not to drink, to keep a keener mind, and in the long run a healthier body is a good decision, no matter how you want to contort and twist that. No, its subjective. Good to me isn't good to you. Good to me isn't the same as any other person here. I ask you this: considering all which you've fought for, wether or not you drink, or anyone else here does tonight, is it truly worth it? Then I ask you the same. Why invade a thread with your beliefs and try to convert everyone else because of what you think? If this thread continues without you bothering everyone, then I say it is worth it. You're doing nothing here but providing more ammunition against yourself, while i'm restating credible point after point. Spare me the self-ego stroking.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 02:30 AM	Harm is undoubtedly a subjective term. I personally strongly believe that being a social nazi is harmful to society and to ones karma. In terms of the drink though. I really see it as a wonderful thing that, like every thing is life, is open to abuse. I would say without question that having a beer in a relaxed environment has improved my career, my education, my sense of humour, my relationship with my family (especially my father), my friendships and my opportunities to experience and appreciate diverse cultural and social possibilities (not to mention my gaming experience). In terms of health I am also sure that in moderation (a beer a day, or a glass of red) it's also good for you. There seems to be enough evidence to support this theory not to mention thousands of years of it working in practice. It's also a catalyst (along with a few other toxicants) for the greatest poets, philosophers and writers (among many other walks of life) to reach their absolute peak of insight and understanding. It does however act as a good scape goat for the short sighted to blame many of the problems of society on. But thankfully while these fringe loonies come and go, the legacy of beer and its alcoholic cousin’s lives on as an inextricable part of all humanity.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 02:31 AM	And for starters, i didn't call myself a straight edge Maybe not directly, however... I don't mind living partially as a straight edge, because i'm used to it. The assumption is by no means invalid. Someone get this kid a beer. Stat.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:32 AM	If maintaining a body that is more susceptible to organ failure, slower functions and various impedences is "good" to you, perhaps it is you who needs the lesson in what is good and what is bad. And for the record, adopting ideals or ways of life from a title doesn't make one that title, just so you know. One can borrow such inspiration from an environmentalist or activist and not be these things. :) You can borrow the attitude to maintain a peak physical condition from an athelte, does that always make you an athlete? You can borrow the diligence to study and research from a teacher, does that make you a teacher? Not always Spare me the self-ego stroking. Spare me the self righteous holier-than-thou views on alcohol and defending it.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:37 AM	If maintaining a body that is more susceptible to organ failure, slower functions and various impedences is "good" to you, perhaps it is you who needs the lesson in what is good and what is bad. Do we honestly need to get into details and start quoting research studies about the affects of drinking on the body? Last time I checked (and don't make me), drinking done in moderation does not have the "OMFG" negative affects you seem to be convinced they have. Seriously, why are you pushing this? And for the final time, good and bad are subjective. Please try to force your beliefs on me and you'll only drive me and others farther away from "good" into the "bad" side. Spare me the self righteous holier-than-thou views on alcohol and defending it. Ever hear of a pot calling the kettle black?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:42 AM	That particular statement doesn't apply here, you're not clever, so don't try to delude yourself into thinking so. My view encompasses keeping the body alcohol free, and similar drugs, not relying on them for any biological or emotional/spiritual needs Your view maintains that drinking is a-ok "as long as they're not drunks" , while not accounting for the smaller side effects which are not always visible to the public eye.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:44 AM	That particular statement doesn't apply here, you're not clever, so don't try to delude yourself into thinking so. Funny, I thought the idea of you telling me to stop doing something you were doing to myself and these posters here matched the statement perfectly. So my view is wrong and yours is right? And we should all be like you? Is that what you are trying to say? Edit: And please, stop paraphrasing my words into your own. I said drinking in moderation is fine. And if you want to quote me earlier where I said it was fine as long as they held their liquor, then I want to inform you that I refined my statement to fit under your microscope.
Roreck 06-02-05, 02:46 AM	wow azar you really think you are better than everyone else don't you. in truth you are nothing but a self-rightous peice of scum you are pathetic and I would pity you if I did not despise you so
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:48 AM	Very clever, however you fail to note that abstaining from alcohol is far from my created ideal, my personal view. It's shared by others worldwide. Though I came to this decision on my own, it's far from something which i thought of in regards to spreading the word. Having learned one positive aspect of living from another person HARDLY constitutes being "like me" And i'm saying, drinking at all is not, whatever hogwash justification you can cook up for it. Edit: and Rorcek, you're the equivalent of a complacent and conformist herd animal that needs popular opinion to be steered, especially in an ideal which is wrong, but rarely seen as such. I despise any and all people like you.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:53 AM	And you fail to note that drinking is far from MY created ideal, but is shared by people like me worldwide. However this is not a worldwide argument. This is about the people here and those who play D&D. The players on this board disagree with you and in our eyes, you are wrong. On a world scale, things could be and are probably different, but this is neither the time nor the place to discuss such things. And i'm saying, drinking at all is not, whatever hogwash justification you can cook up for it. And Im saying it is fine in moderation. Isn't it nice to express opinions without being opressed by others? Edit: Why do I have the feeling you are doing this because of a religious belief?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 02:57 AM	Asmodai, this is the umpteenth time i have stated it, I am not doing this out of religious belief, if you wish to believe so, you may go ahead. But I made my comment on it. If it appears that I am preaching from the choir, then I apologize, but that's not the image i intended to put out. You know individuals are capable of being passionate, even hard headed without the basis of religion to found their lives upon. That's all.
Roreck 06-02-05, 02:57 AM	because asmodi it is very common for ignorant religious fools to try to force their views on others just like our little prince here who thinks he is better than everyone because he hates alcohol (which is of course such a valid argument, enter massive amounts of sarcasm here) and yes we know you are not doing this for religious reason I would just like to know what those reasons are to convert us away from alcohol?
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 02:58 AM	Then why are you pushing your beliefs to get everyone in the thread to convert to your side?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:00 AM	Because this is something i feel strongly about. I'd like to take this time to put forth that i realize i erred in being so venomous to the posters here, but in reality it's the drink I have the issues with, not the people, not you posters here.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 03:04 AM	See? Thats good, and even something I would agree with. Im sure I speak for most of us when I say that we erred in being over-agressive in our defense. If you want to express your views, great. If you want to express a dissenting opinion in a thread, even better. But if you do, you can't expect to recieve a welcome to your ideals. If you want to debate the effects of alcohol on the body, then this isn't the place, unfortunately. Having a problem with drinking and having one with drinking and D&D is really two separate issues better discussed on an off-topic board rather than crammed into one thread. I agree and even admire your mindset in promoting what you believe in, but you are going to have to accept that some people, if not all in some places, will not agree. On the same hand, perhaps we should too.
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:04 AM	ok because you apologized in your way I will try in mine. I really don't like being told what I can and can not do hey I am 19 it comes with the age. so I appologize for taking your remarks to heart but can you please explain why you isues with alcohol? like a really bad past experience? and not choosing to drink is fine in my book but choosing to do so is equally fine as long as it is done in moderation
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 03:09 AM	Actually a friend of mine (and ex-tutor) is on a rotation committee for the medical board of ethics in the UK. She thinks alcohol in moderation is a good thing for society (and the body) and should be promoted. Though she was never so keen when I brought a pint to her lectures. I am sort of surprised so many people are letting the loony get away with the fact alcohol is bad, the only reason I didn't mention it sooner is because I thought it was below comment and obvious to everyone. I have to say, I am rather surprised that people are bothering to attack such a gibberish doctrine of ideals. Let's just make fun of him. Besides, i think he's kind of cute in a :tantrum: sort of way.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:12 AM	There are equal arguements on my side as well, simply because i did not cite my sources or was as articulate as you, or other posters were, does not diminish my point, regardless of how vehemently I expressed them to you all, The Man From Uncle. Laughing and further insultations, despite who you direct them to, doesn't make you appear all that much better, you know. :twocents:
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 03:13 AM	I can't help but be impressed by how opionated he is on such a grown-up topic. Give him that at least. He's got spirit (or whatever the non-alcoholic version of spirit is).
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:14 AM	yes he does have spirit and for that he gets a :cookie: as long as he promises never to force his views on anyone else again
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 03:15 AM	'There are equal arguements on my side as well' ....of course there are. We went over them 'Alcohol is Bad! Why won't anyone listen!' :tantrum:, ring any bells?
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:15 AM	And yet you still fall under the opinion I am a non-adult, in either form...
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:17 AM	Roreck, quite frankly, i don't have to promise a thing to you.
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 03:19 AM	Hey hey hey, we just had the thread flaming over with and we were looking to get back on topic. Lets stop the sniping pretty pretty please? :surrender
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:19 AM	And, The Man From Uncle, when i spoke of arguements in my favor, i meant that in regards to published, official sources, such as magazines, newspapers and internet articles of news agencies, not just my view.
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:20 AM	well you did say you were 10 but how old are you than or is it a mystery than we can solve or something cause I know how to solve a mystery ok I roled a 14 on gather information and 16 to sense motivate so do I know how old you are azar or did i not reach the DC? and that was joke Azar lighten up please just trying to make amends with desert items
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 03:23 AM	Prince Azar - ':tantrum:' I hear you.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:24 AM	If you wish to guess my age, then go right ahead. But like earlier with people assuming my passion was religously based, I don't really have to prove anything. Age is a number, someone young can be well spoke and mature, someone old can be immature and uncouth. I'll just leave it at that.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 03:25 AM	Besides, i think he's kind of cute... Uh, could you BE any more gay! Quickly Uncle, go pound a few cold ones to make you feel more like a real man!
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:25 AM	oh so I guess my rolls were too low or the DC to high please do not insult gay people please I do not want to get into another flame war (today) ps gay people rock because I am one
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:26 AM	Prince Azar - ':tantrum:' I hear you. The Man From Uncle- ':twitch:' Loud and clear buddy.
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:27 AM	oh so I guess my rolls were too low or the DC to high please do not insult gay people please I do not want to get into another flame war (today) ps gay people rock because I am one Or maybe you should roll a new character ;)
Asmodai_00 06-02-05, 03:29 AM	Prince Azar - ':tantrum:' I hear you. I spent almost 2 pages arguing and finally make peace, and this happens. Great. I give up.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 03:33 AM	please do not insult gay people please I do not want to get into another flame war (today) Just playing there big fella (did you miss my subtle undertones?!!)
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:33 AM	I have already have three but none of the other ones have a cha stat or any ranks in sense motive or gather info I need to make a sorcerer or bard I'll do that tomorrow 3 am is too late for character creation or maybe it is too early
PrinceAzar 06-02-05, 03:37 AM	Yeah, i'm stating here that I am apologetic for speaking a bit too encroaching on other's rights, however i still hold my views on alcohol and will express my beliefs if others do ask me. This thread may resume as normal.
Roreck 06-02-05, 03:39 AM	Azar I never meant to change you views they are valid but everyones views are equally valid in that they don't matter at all (and weather or not I am joking I do not know)
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 03:52 AM	Fear not Roreck, my dear treeswinging friend is not a homophobe. He and I even went to a gay bar once. Course as soon as we realised (far too many well shaved and dressed men) we high tailed it the heck outta there, but I did recommend the place to a few people that might be interested a few years later. Something like Zanzibar 'A Bar with a difference' it was called. I am curious to know, now that we are back on topic, when were people's first experience of having a beer while playing? For me it was at a long past Gencon when I was 16 or so. It was perhaps the best single session of DnD I have ever played. It was rather freeform and I was the youngest in the group along with a friend of mine who was a couple of years older. Everyone else was 30+. It was an Al-quadim quest and we got no more than 1/3 the way through it. But it was so much fun and so memorable that we formed friendships there and then and had reunions in subsequent years to try and re-kindle the magic.
Santrilla 06-02-05, 05:13 AM	And once again, Azar's views on alcohol turn a thread into a flamepit. Well done.
MonkeyKing 06-02-05, 05:30 AM	Something like Zanzibar 'A Bar with a difference' it was called. I do recall thinking afterwards that we should have known from the name, or indeed from what that salty sailor said to me as I walked in. 'Why would I want to dock in poo bay' I thought to myself, 'I've already got my boat moored at the quay up the road!' As Uncle so rightly pointed out though I'm no homophobe, in fact I even support your right to gay marriage (in America, not for us Brits thank you very much) and have several flamboyantly homosexual friends. I can only hope that in turn you do not take offence to my overtly heterosexual manner. But I digress! I am curious to know, now that we are back on topic, when were people's first experience of having a beer while playing? Uncle's question is an interesting one and will no doubt provoke many different answers. For me however, my answer is the same as his. Although I wasn't in the same group I too enjoyed both the quest and the beer immensely (a Newcastle Brown Ale I believe it was, although at 15 any beer is enjoyable). Gen Con UK was so much better in those days, Uncle vomited many a retainer into a toilet after a hard night 'roleplaying'!
Count Arioch the 28th 06-02-05, 05:30 AM	One of my friends is a recovering alcoholic, so no alcohol at my game. I used to do a shot or two before DMing to loosen up, but then I realized that I was getting a little too loose, so I stopped.
babysamurai 06-02-05, 06:20 AM	I think we should all lay off PrinceAzar, maybe he's a raging alcoholic in denial, I mean has anyone heard the phrase "The lady doth protest too much". Or it could be something like latent homosexuality, where he has these feelings of wanting to drink, but can't admit it to himself. Or maybe he came from a family that were abusive alcoholics, we just don't know. I guess what I'm saying PrinceAzar, is that everybody would probably like to know how you formulated such black and white-stringent views. I mean no offence by any of these theory's, I just want to understand. :)
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 06:34 AM	babysamurai, I can assure you we really don't care what his reason for being a heckler is, we're just glad it's over at least until its daytime in his timezone. Thank you Monkey for reminding me of those Gencons of old. I did, I think, only lose one retainer, but there was certainly much production. I think that was the night when we were challenged to order a different drink every round for about 10 rounds and that was after a goodly early evening session of guinness. Oh the innocence of youth. (Did i not like that next morning? Oh baby. Shudder. Never-the-less to the gaming table I returned!) Never confuse alcoholism though. An alcoholic is not someone who drinks to get drunk, and alcoholic is someone that drinks to stay drunk. Edited for politeness (Good call Count)
DonGnocci 06-02-05, 07:08 AM	Yeah, i'm stating here that I am apologetic for speaking a bit too encroaching on other's rights, however i still hold my views on alcohol and will express my beliefs if others do ask me. This thread may resume as normal. Well... [BTW:"Where is the bus?"] I don't normally drink alcohol when i DM... some of my group's players do, some don't. As long as they can handle what they drink, and don't distract from the game, it's ok. When i'm in the mood, I'll have some Hefeweizen or some shots... As long as i stay sober enough to handle the game and my players... I can't see your point why you rant about people having a drink or more while playing a game... [BTW: Did ANYONE ask you about your opinion on sexual behaviour? Because you mentioned that you will marry and stuff...] Well... i did DM once upon a time when i was quite drunk(not really drunk, because my body mass is quite a lot :) ) (I had drunk a 0,75l bottle of 24% liqueur (some kind of passion fruit liqueur) and appr. 0,4l of a 31%cordial-style-liqueur) but the experience was neither impressing nor frustrating (for me). But the players seemed to experience me as being a "bit more talkative" and "better acting out" the NPCs... Well... maybe i was in a real good mood. So what. There's no universal answer on this topic. I am not the one to cast stones on anybody just because of a few beers or some shots. :whatsthis
Mr. Leet 06-02-05, 07:31 AM	I'm just sad that you'd have to resort to drinking to relax, that's all :weep: I'm sad you have nothing better to do than to critisize people you don't know. Life ain't black and white, if you haven't noticed. If your relationship with alcohol is so uptight, may I ask what makes you think you got all the answers? What do you know about it? Have you even tasted it? I don't have to rely on alcohol to relax, either. Hell, I'm one relaxed guy, some times too relaxed, and I could easily play D&D without drinking. I'm just a little shy, and after drinking a beer or two, I believe I would relax better and open more up, giving my players a more fun game. Who knows. Maybe I this time will be able to relax without even tasting a beer. I haven't DMed for 2 years, so who knows. And, if you haven't noticed, a beer or two won't kill you, you won't go to hell, and you won't kill off your PCs with a great wyrm dragon because you think it's a good idea there and then. But, it seems that all you wanna do is argue. Go ahead, get this thread locked.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 07:40 AM	Leet - 'But, it seems that all you wanna do is argue. Go ahead, get this thread locked.' Steady on there leet old man. We don't want to get shut down yet. Prince seems have decided not butt in unless asked. Lets try and keep it like that.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-02-05, 08:05 AM	I'd say anyone who flamed whatsisface after he APOLOGIZED is the one who'll get this thread locked.
Zyfax 06-02-05, 09:21 AM	well, seems I missed this thread. of course, this turned into a flamewar. irritating really. during our sessions, nobody drinks alcohol, and that is really good, since half of us are total abstainers, and the rest drinks so seldom it's funny. the only guy actively drinking in our group left it because we moved session time to fridays, and he wanted to hang out and drink. we mourn the loss, he was quite a good roleplayer. of course, refraining from alcohol is a personal choice, and something that should be respected. I respect people who drink, as long as I am not there to witness drunken revelry. that is about my opinion (and yes, I am one of the abstainers in the group. I am also the only one religious, but that doesn't matter). I have heard some rather hefty tales about drinking and roleplaying, and also some positive ones. I guess it's up to the maturity of the players. it wouldn't work with us though. And also, here in sweden you can go out and drink at age 18, and buy alcohol at 20. People always seem to find it earlier though. sad, really.
sooperspook 06-02-05, 10:06 AM	Well, in my culture, alcohol has always been a major part. rice wine mostly, called tuak, tho i personally prefer a good beer. i've never played or Dm while drunk or even tipsy but i have been in games that went very wierd due to sleep deprivation and lots of caffiene. :D that was funny. btw, hasnt it been proven, a couple of years ago i think, that a glass of wine or light beer a day is good for you? it helps the heart or something? i do know that tuak is considered by my people to be nessecary for a good life. :)
josephreese 06-02-05, 10:37 AM	In the spirit of delightful aperitifs, here is another one of my favorites, the Delilah: 1.5 oz gin .75 oz Cointreau .75 oz fresh lemon juice Shake with ice and strain into a cocktail glass. Wonderful for an early Summer evening.
J.Augustus Rose II 06-02-05, 11:02 AM	I'd say anyone who flamed whatsisface after he APOLOGIZED is the one who'll get this thread locked. The thread should have been locked as soon as whatsisface climbed onto his unwelcome and unwanted holier-than-thou soapbox. Whoever it was who pointed out the "D&D is against my religion and is therefor evil" comparison was dead on.
The Listener 06-02-05, 11:34 AM	The thread should have been locked as soon as whatsisface climbed onto his unwelcome and unwanted holier-than-thou soapbox. Whoever it was who pointed out the "D&D is against my religion and is therefor evil" comparison was dead on. Dude, he apoligised, get over it. People have a right to an opinion that is contrary to yours, he just made a mistake of trying to prove himself a little too much. Anywho, I wouldn't mind if someone has something little to drink at one of my games, as long as they are under the legal driving BAC limit or are able to control themselves, whichever is smaller. I don't, but I do drink plenty of Pop, so I can't complain.
J.Augustus Rose II 06-02-05, 11:45 AM	Dude, he apoligised, get over it. People have a right to an opinion that is contrary to yours, he just made a mistake of trying to prove himself a little too much. And this is the third or fourth thread he's done it in. Apologies don't mean much when you retract them to start soap-boxing it again and again and again.
Lord Schpungus 06-02-05, 12:22 PM	Roreck - 'and to my previous question what is a yippie when taken as an insult?' I think it's a type of small dog. Could be wrong though. My specialty is apparently psychology not veterinary science. For everyone's edification, Yippies were a group of young people in America in the 60s who did odd things for the purpose of being odd. Nonsensical, crazy, fun, uninhibited. Never got anything accomplished, except awesomeness.
Damien_Hiro 06-02-05, 12:23 PM	Another good drink for slow games is a H&B: 1 shot of Hennesy 2 shots of Bailey's Irish Cream On the rocks. It is smooth and cool. If the alcohol is too much let it sit and melt some of the ice. It is also good if you replace the hennesy with a chocolate liquor, then it is like chocolat milk with a kick.
Santrilla 06-02-05, 12:46 PM	Another good drink for slow games is a H&B: 1 shot of Hennesy 2 shots of Bailey's Irish Cream On the rocks. It is smooth and cool. If the alcohol is too much let it sit and melt some of the ice. It is also good if you replace the hennesy with a chocolate liquor, then it is like chocolat milk with a kick. Oo, sounds gorgeous. Baileys and milk is a nice one too, but not really a going-out drink; dairy plays hell with your digestive system. In the cocktail bar I frequent they have a Grasshopper. I'm unsure of the measures, but it's creme de menthe, creme de cacao and cream. Tastes like a mint Aero. :P
Roreck 06-02-05, 01:19 PM	For everyone's edification, Yippies were a group of young people in America in the 60s who did odd things for the purpose of being odd. Nonsensical, crazy, fun, uninhibited. Never got anything accomplished, except awesomeness lord Schpungus I thought those were hippies.
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 01:32 PM	Another good drink for slow games is a H&B: 1 shot of Hennesy 2 shots of Bailey's Irish Cream On the rocks. That does sound like a lovely drink. I can't get Baileys out here, but I will be bringing back some Hennesy. I hope i get the chance to try it.
Sinaz 06-02-05, 01:46 PM	btw, hasnt it been proven, a couple of years ago i think, that a glass of wine or light beer a day is good for you? it helps the heart or something? i do know that tuak is considered by my people to be nessecary for a good life. :) Yes. It's apparently good for the blood, reduces risk of heart and cardiovascular disease. Though it's not entirely clinicified, they think it's why the French can eat so much fatty cheese and not suffer the same heart problems as Americans (because they drink a healthy amount of wine.) I did some research (because I needed some ammo in case I had to step into this flame war) because I enjoy my alcoholic beverage once in a while, just as I enjoy my aroobios tea with raw sugar, just as I enjoy my cane sugar organic ginger brew, just as I enjoy any of the little things that aren't healthy in massive quantities but are excelent delicacies in moderation. And it is reckoned by some medical experts that a woman's cardiovascular system would benefit from one drink per week (glass of wine, beer, or shot of hard liquor) while a man's cardiovascular system will benefit better from three or four, but I've also read that just drinking lightly, but more frequently, improves your mental and physical health (I'd imagine that means like... a glass of wine or brandy in the evening.) And then, I've also read that women benefit more, up until menopause where studies have shown that breast cancer sprung up more in light drinkers than in abstainers. But 'm sure that's just comparitive data conjecture which isn't a good clinical benchmark. In the end, I'm adamant that my drinking is healthy. And if I had some beer or wine while playing D&D, it's because I enjoy the taste that, lets face it, you can't find in water, or caffiene free soda, or iced tea, or lemonade. I'll never fullfill a wine fix with sparkling grape juice, and I'll never fullfill a beer fix with... uh... what else is there? Does anybody make barley soda? (and I just can't enjoy that domestic light swill. Or wine from a box for that matter... my drinking must have dignity! And no house liquor in my cocktails!)
Lobo13 06-02-05, 01:57 PM	-After reading this thread and a few others here and on other boards, i have one question... why does anyone respond to anything PrinceAz posts...seriously...must be ego about post counts or something... as for alcohol and DnD; a glass a wine a night, while beneficial for your circulatory and cardiovascular systems (check out FDA website and your local library for research notes), is good for gaming... Reinact that feast after a hard day of dungeon delving... Drinking the poisoned tankard at the king's ball... Taking a nip while your comrades battle an easy foe for which you refuse to exert energy to kill.. Good tasting, roleplay prop, and healthy in moderation... In vino veritas.....-Lobo13
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 02:00 PM	How fortuitous. The world record for the duration of marriage has been set today in good old blighty! And one of the things they attribute to their long life and everlasting companionship is regular alcohol! There is no smilie for :I rest my case:
The Man from Uncle 06-02-05, 02:01 PM	Lobo13 - 'In vino veritas' In wine (drink) there is truth
Mr. Leet 06-02-05, 03:18 PM	If someone pokes me with a stick, I just don't let them poke me. I usually try to hold up my hand to prevent it. if that doesn't work, I will maybe hit the stick to make it stop. If that doesn't work, I will break the stick. I'm in fase one