Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vaderboy 02-27-08, 01:04 PM	I have a Dwarf fighter in my campaign who would like to go into the Dwarven defender class. I do not mind him multi-classing but I want some opinions on the class. He is hell-bent on playing one and I am not going to tell him no, I just want to know what to expect from it. 1. Is the Dwarven Defender a good fix for the fighters problems 2. How could I design the class to be able to go past level ten as described in the Dungeon Masters Guide any suggestions would be helpful including layouts for how the next 5-10 levels would progress. He would really like to play it out further than just ten levels 3. In my setting in order to become a defender he would have to go to one of the 2 major Dwarf kingdoms and complete a quest for them. I need to know what sort of quest would work well in this situation? Anything that you would like to suggest would be helpful
Dog_O_War 02-27-08, 01:11 PM	I have a Dwarf fighter in my campaign who would like to go into the Dwarven defender class. I do not mind him multi-classing but I want some opinions on the class. He is hell-bent on playing one and I am not going to tell him no, I just want to know what to expect from it. 1. Is the Dwarven Defender a good fix for the fighters problems What problems do you think the fighter has? 2. How could I design the class to be able to go past level ten as described in the Dungeon Masters Guide any suggestions would be helpful including layouts for how the next 5-10 levels would progress. He would really like to play it out further than just ten levels check the online SRD for epic level prestige classes. 3. In my setting in order to become a defender he would have to go to one of the 2 major Dwarf kingdoms and complete a quest for them. I need to know what sort of quest would work well in this situation? Anything that you would like to suggest would be helpful Perhaps the two kingdoms fight a near constant battle against orc, goblin, and giant invaders. Maybe he has to stand the line for 1 week (after some training) to help repel the hordes and to give some of the regular front-liners a reprieve. This might entail a few attacks, and since it is a battlefield the other PC's could help out too because the dwarves would take any help offered.
inthesto 02-27-08, 01:13 PM	The short answer to the first question is no, not at all. It just throws the fighter some clean-picked bones that may look cool on paper but don't really do much in the long run.
Sinfire Titan 02-27-08, 01:20 PM	Here on the boards, we have a saying about the Dwarven Defender: "Oh Noes! Its a Dwarven Defender. Everyone, quick, walk briskly!" Seriously, that PrC looks awesome at first glance, but in actual play, they are good for two things: Shield Walls, and guarding 5' wide hallways with a treasure chest behind them. Honestly, the best PrC to fix the Fighter is Dungeon Crasher/Warblade/Crusader/Divine Crusader/Ur-Priest. If you go Warblade/Crusader, tell him to look at the Deepstone Sentinel in the Tome of Battle. If he goes DC/UP, well... You have a whole 'nother kettle of fish to deal with.
vaderboy 02-27-08, 02:13 PM	What problems do you think the fighter has? I am just talking about balancing issues between them and spellcasting classes. I personally think fighters are very good at what they are there to do I just feel that they sort of get lost in the shuffle in the higher levels
Sinfire Titan 02-27-08, 02:31 PM	I am just talking about balancing issues between them and spellcasting classes. I personally think fighters are very good at what they are there to do I just feel that they sort of get lost in the shuffle in the higher levels Past level 5, Fighters hit the Poverty section of class features. After level 7, they are almost worthless. 9th and beyond, it takes true skill to even keep up with an optimized Fighter in a Core-only game. Once the Druid gets Wild Shape, the Cleric and Wizard have 4th level spells, and the Rogue has max ranks in UMD, the Fighter is really only a shiny distraction that talks. Many people will argue against this philosophy, but it is a sad argument. The truth is, Bonus Feats only go so far in the world of DnD. They just don't compare to spellcasting very fairly. Any full caster with access to good buffs can replace the Fighter, and the Druid's animal companion can do that same thing without buffing. It is a harsh reality, but somethings never change. The best classes in the game will always be spellcasters, and the more WotC nerfs the Fighter with Errata and useless feats, the more spellcasters will outshine them. Tome of Battle did do something to boost the Fighter's options, by giving them better multiclassing choices. The Swashbuckler and Hexblade and Samurai just didn't offer the Fighter something it didn't all ready have. And Scout, Ninja, and Spellthief only crippled something else to make multiclassing good for them. Nothing in Complete Arcane's base classes were worth dipping into for a Fighter, and CD had the same thing. Sure, some of the PrCs they put out were really good options for a Fighter. And some were geared for them specifically. But they still left a huge gap. Martial Adepts also did something else to the Fighter: Gave the party a replacement for him. People want to say that a Warblade can't replace an optimized Fighter build. This may be true, but the difference between the power these two classes can have is very slim when compared to even the humble Warlock. As a result, Fighter gets hit at every corner. It isn't the best, it isn't the worst. It just is. And nothing short of a major overhaul can change that. CoDzilla, Batman, Hellfire Warlock, Ruby Knight Windicator, Eternal Blades of Doom, Dervishes, and Duskblades all can outclass the Fighter before they even get to buy magic items. Not all of those are primarily spellcasters, but most of them are. I have yet to see a Fighter build that can beat Chuck in a toe-to-toe fight if Chuck wins Init. Hell, not much can beat Chuck, save for the Planar Shepard of Doom or a Polymorphed caster. But even then, they have a fight on their hands. I mean, even a Paladin can pull Pun-Pun easily. Fighter? Not that easily. Getting the Knowledge DC at 1st level is next to impossible for a Fighter to do to pull the loop off. Hell, Pallys can barely do the trick themselves. But arbitrarily broken things aside, perfectly simple spells shut down a Fighter who doesn't know what they are doing. Grease is a common example. Unless the player specifically knew to put ranks in a CC skill, this shuts down a 20th level Fighter alarmingly well. And it is a 1st level spell! The problems that a Fighter has isn't that the class is crappy, it is that it is mediocre at its finest. And even then, it takes a specific build to keep up with a caster of any sort who knows what to do against the Lockdown build.
Dog_O_War 02-27-08, 04:42 PM	I am just talking about balancing issues between them and spellcasting classes. I personally think fighters are very good at what they are there to do I just feel that they sort of get lost in the shuffle in the higher levels You'll never achieve balance then. Personally, I don't think it should be balanced, but that is my opinion. Otherwise, he is a dwarf, and if you offer him wisdom boosting items, his will saves will be fine (dwarven fortitude is never called into question!). He'll eat it every time though with the reflex saves. The saves, broken down; If he goes for 10 fighter, 10 dwarven defender, he'll have a base fortitude save of +14, base reflex of +6, and a base will of +10. Add in his dwarven racial bonus, and that means fort +16 vesus spells or poison, ref +8 versus spells and spell-like abilities (not dragon breath unfortunately), and will +12 versus spells and spell-like abilities (again, not against a dragon's fear). Cloaks of resistance are very common piece of adventuring gear, so you can add another +5 to each of these, offering fort +19, ref +13, and will +17. If he were to take iron will, is will save would be at +19. Right here I will go into a caster's possible save DC's. A human wizard with an 18 intelligence, +5 per level, +5 from a tome, and +6 from a headband of intellect has an intelligence score of 34. This means that a first level spell cast by him has a save DC of 23. His 9th level spell save is DC: 31. in order for the dwarven defender with the saves above to make that (with a wisdom score of ten), he needs to roll a 12; this means he has a 45% chance of success. If he has a wisdom score of 14 (increasing the save to +21) he then needs only a 10; a 55% chance of success. That's pretty damn good if only one in two will saves are failed against a 9th level spell. The save DC could be 33 with spell focus, or higher depending on other campaign specific feats (like spellcasting prodigy from the Faerun campaign setting), but these can be off-set by potions of heroism (+2 morale bonus to saves), and wisdom buffers (a potion would provide an additional +2, while a periapt of wisdom would offer up to a +3 bonus). If he took the combat focus feats, all he needs to do is make a successful melee attack and he gains an additional +2-4 will save bonus. If he had all of these things, he could only fail the caster's save DC of 31 on a roll of 1; or a roll of 3 if the caster had spell focus (and greater spell focus). The saves of this character are potentially nothing to worry about, as far as spells are concerned. If he has a tower shield, he could get improved evasion if he readied only a single action to attack or shield himself with. If you're worried about him being "out-classed" at these higher levels, offer adventures that are in (relatively) confined spaces.
Kursk 02-27-08, 06:43 PM	As I long term player of dwarven fighters I can safely say I'd never take this class. Next to useless as an adventurer.
vaderboy 03-04-08, 06:58 PM	Thanks for the input. This will help me know for sure what to expect from his character
Lincoln Hills 03-05-08, 03:26 PM	Last time I was doing the "dwarf fighter" route, I rolled unexpectedly well for Dexterity. After a few levels I branched into rogue levels (not a good idea as a Plan - always start with rogue - but this was provoked by the character's evolution.) And I can say comfortably that three levels of rogue can do a lot to help out the "tank". Uncanny dodge, evasion, +2d6 sneak attack, +3 to Reflex saves - and all I had to give up was +1 to attack, 6 hp, and a couple of fighter feats (I still got plenty). Of course, you tend to stick to light armor, but when high Dexterity calls, heavy armor can just get outta the way. ;)
vaderboy 03-06-08, 09:14 PM	Thanks for the suggestion Lincoln hills, I think that i will suggest that to him on saturday when we play
Silverthumb 03-07-08, 03:08 PM	As I long term player of dwarven fighters I can safely say I'd never take this class. Next to useless as an adventurer. I dunno how its useless, per se. If you're in a dungeon(which isn't that big of a stretch), for example, you can use your Defensive Stance to block off an enemy's advance while your party wails on it from a distance. That's fairly handy. Plus, the Defender is more than its Defensive Stance. Its AC bonus, good Will save, damage reduction, and decent skills are a big help for Dwarf Fighters compared to what they already had. I'm not going to go out on the limb to say that these are everything the Fighter ever needed, but they do help out. Trap Sense as well, while I've never cared for it(I'd rather have a flat bonus to Reflex saves), further emphasizes how much better it is in dungeons than straight Fighter would be. As an adventurer, not everything you face is really going to be a 20th level Wizard/Archmage, there are tons of monsters out there that would have a hard time getting through your defenses, which is the focus of the class anyways. Situational, but not useless. In an open area, sure, it leaves a bit wanting, but in dungeons, you can really shine through by keeping your party out of harm's way.
Cifer 03-07-08, 08:43 PM	@Silverthumb You're right. Except of course if your dungeons are wider than 5 feet and the enemies have better things to do than hacking at an unmoving block of steel...
Silverthumb 03-07-08, 09:59 PM	@Silverthumb You're right. Except of course if your dungeons are wider than 5 feet and the enemies have better things to do than hacking at an unmoving block of steel... I'm already pretty bored with making this point considering I spent my entire last post stating that its a situationally useful class. But if you've got a 10 or 15 foot wide corridor(wider than 5 feet, as you say, by 2 & 3 times), and the Dwarf stands in the middle of the 15 or on either side of the 10, no Ogre or other suitably large creature is going to be able to get through without dealing with the DD first. If you're worried about medium or smaller creatures, caltrops aren't terribly expensive. As a DD, defensive feats like Combat Expertise are going to be very helpful, and after that, Improved Trip isn't that expensive and will help with Attacks of Opportunity made to move past you. Now's the part where we go back and forth about situations where this happens and that doesn't work and how it would work there but not here, let's just skip that because we've already made our points and both sides stand fine to their own reason.
Josheva 03-08-08, 06:05 PM	Now's the part where we go back and forth about situations where this happens and that doesn't work and how it would work there but not here, let's just skip that because we've already made our points and both sides stand fine to their own reason. Or we could just celebrate our differences with cheesecake! :D
Silverthumb 03-09-08, 03:10 AM	Or we could just celebrate our differences with cheesecake! :D Cheesecake is nice too.
vaderboy 03-09-08, 03:15 AM	Or we could just celebrate our differences with cheesecake! :D Here's to that. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what you guys are saying, as long as I keep at least some combat per adventure in an enclosed space he should still get his chance to shine?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-09-08, 10:01 AM	Here's to that. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what you guys are saying, as long as I keep at least some combat per adventure in an enclosed space he should still get his chance to shine? He should, yeah. The dwarven defender is basically a semi-portable wall. A fairly narrow wall, and one that doesn't fare well with magic, but wall-like nonetheless. Give him some passages to play roadblock in against low-magic enemies, and good reason to do so, and he should get his spotlight time fine.
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-09-08, 10:14 AM	If you have players ahndbook II, I would suggest the Knight class as an excellent alternative tot he dwarven defedner. They can even make the enemy attack them instead of the other party members. :D
chibishuffle 03-09-08, 10:47 AM	prince of the void makes a valid point. I would like to make one small adjustment. I'd dip fighter 2 for the bonus feats to help get into the DD. Id go knight5/ fighter2 / defender10. I feel that knight's challenge, bulwark of defense and vigilant defender all compliment the DD nicely.
Nathreet 03-09-08, 11:35 AM	Dwarven defender is handy even if you never use defensive stance. I'd agree that the lack of mobility from that stance may be more of a hindrance than a help in most situations except narrow corriders (not that narrow corriders are uncommon). But by the time you get to dwarven defender, you already have most of the good bonus feats except greater weapon spec. So now it provides a full AB class with flat AC bonuses (even when not in defensive stance) and a d12 hit die. And as if that wasn't enough (it's plenty when you're a fighter w/o any non-core books to get feats from), you get uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, DR 6/- (DR 3/- earlier) and a good will save. Roughly everything a barbarian gets minus rage, enough AC to defend against a rage (even w/o defensive stance), defensive stance and whatever abilities you had before DD. Ya, for a core martial class DD is great. Any DD worth his salt should take combat expertise. For example, enemy needs 15-20 to hit (30%) and DD needs 7-20 to hit (70%). CE for 19-20 (10%) and 11-20 (50%). Big loss to enemy, small loss to DD. It also fits the flavor well. Works b/c the DD has a much higher AB & AC than most enemies. You don't go all defense, though. You get a good weapon too. Now if the monsters ignore the DD they get a world of unending hurt. Believe it or not, added defense is never a disadvantage. It does not suddenly get rid of your ability to attack. Just don't use defensive stance when it's a bad idea. You still have other bonuses. I'd do fighter 12/DD 7/any 1 myself. But it doesn't sound like your player wants that. So he could go fighter 8 / DD 10 (for example). If he's really bent on getting DD 12 or even DD 13, I'll extend it out for you: Base Attack Fort Ref Will AC Level Bonus Save Save Save Bonus Special 11th +11 +7 +3 +7 +4 Defensive stance 6/day 12th +12 +8 +4 +8 +4 Special ability, trap sense +3 13th +13 +8 +4 +8 +5 Defensive stance 7/day Special Ability Insert your own made up special ability here. It should be strong enough to follow after improved uncanny dodge, mobile defense, and DR 6/-. Perhaps you could make it "greater defensive stance" for +2 str, +6 con, +6 AC and +3 to saves. Btw, a fighter can't take toughness and endurance as bonus feats. Only dodge. So you might only do a 1 level dip into fighter to get a pre-req for DD if you went with a knight/fighter/DD or etc.
Magrus 03-09-08, 01:34 PM	@Silverthumb You're right. Except of course if your dungeons are wider than 5 feet and the enemies have better things to do than hacking at an unmoving block of steel... He's got a point. I am going to be starting a game in the next month or so, and with the right tactics, a DD could be really beneficial in it. Not the best choice, obviously, but in the situations I am foreseeing, for when the party gets worn out and they are still stuck, until they leave it, in this massive dungeon, having one would do the party good. It is very situational. In a dungeon, or cave system, with areas where there are many places with a single entry into a room with a 5' doorway as that entry, that character becomes a wall to guard the other members when they need rest. High AC, DR, full BAB, great HP, 2 great saves and anything with a good chance of knocking him down is too big to clear the doorway? Perfect for giving your spell casters a night to rest behind him. The high Con can make sure he will make any checks necessary for staying there as long as it takes the party to recover as well. Not optimal, to be sure. However, nothing ever stays where the party is at their top game, all of the time. Eventually, things go sour, and with no "I go back to town and sleep in an inn, then memorize my spells" involved in the game, characters that are made to handle bad situations going worse become useful again.
Nathreet 03-09-08, 08:05 PM	Honestly, covered 2-3 times now. The DD is handy even if you never use the defensive stance in your entire adventuring career.
Silverthumb 03-10-08, 01:33 PM	I'd do fighter 12/DD 7/any 1 myself. For that "any 1," I would absolutely say Cleric. Just straight Cleric, because you'll want Turn Undead. Why? Earth Devotion from Complete Champion. With it, you can turn up to(I think) 6 squares into Difficult Terrain(by 20th level, but again, I might be wrong), as long as they are adjacent to each other and 1 is adjacent to you.
Magrus 03-10-08, 01:36 PM	Cleric/ DD isn't bad, yeah. You won't have truly high level spells, but by the time you reach high enough BAB with cleric levels, you will have healing and buffs covered. A nice way to have an extra cleric in the group that truly is a tank.
Cifer 03-10-08, 05:37 PM	@Magrus It is very situational. In a dungeon, or cave system, with areas where there are many places with a single entry into a room with a 5' doorway as that entry, that character becomes a wall to guard the other members when they need rest. High AC, DR, full BAB, great HP, 2 great saves and anything with a good chance of knocking him down is too big to clear the doorway? Perfect for giving your spell casters a night to rest behind him. The high Con can make sure he will make any checks necessary for staying there as long as it takes the party to recover as well. That's not exactly something I couldn't cover with a Wall of Iron (or Stone) and a Disintegrate the next morning... or a Rope Trick, for that matter. And, what's even better: The Rope Trick is invisible and survives a few peltings with arrows from range... I'm afraid "being exchangeable for a 2nd level spell" is not exactly the mark of usefulness a class should aim for.
fighter_mcwarrior 03-10-08, 06:24 PM	@ vaderboy: For the record, I have several recommendations. To boost his speed, tell the player to get boots of springing/striding and the quick trait from Unearthed Arcana (if you want to allow those). This can get the DD a base speed of 40. If he only wears light or medium armor and doesn't become encumbered, he can get another +10 to speed by taking a level of barbarian. As for issues with corridor size, this can be solved by buying items of size enhancement, whether through potions or wonderous items. For feats, there are a number that help with battlefield control. Stand Still out of XPH is great for stopping enemies from running past. Hold the Line might work if he's interested in disrupting charging opponents. Once he hits level 15, there's one in Complete Warrior that forces opponents to move or provoke an AoO. Dog already mentioned Combat Expertise, so I can't think of anything else at the moment (I don't have all my books with me), unless your DD is interested in being trip/sunder/disarm happy. @ cifer: The I use rope trick to escape the battle thing assumes that the caster is in a position where he isn't vulnerable...not likely on a battlefield where you are losing the fight. Stopping to touch a piece of loose rope generally makes you a perfect target for anyone standing next to you or the archers standing out of your range. Even if getting hit doesn't cause the caster to lose the spell, it sure will eat way at your limited HP. That said, if the caster survives long enough to cast the spell he actually has to climb the rope. I hope he can make climb checks, otherwise he's as good as dead.
Cifer 03-10-08, 06:42 PM	@fighter I wasn't talking about combats (although even there proper battlefield control abilities will usually help you keep your squishies away from the enemy better than the five feet of impassable terrain that is the DD) - Magrus referred to the dwarven defender being able to block a corridor as long as it takes the rest of the party to, well, rest. Further, I really wonder what ability the dwarven defender has to protect the spellcaster from the arrows you mentioned. I hope he can make climb checks, otherwise he's as good as dead. You mean, that awful DC 5 Climb Check?
fighter_mcwarrior 03-10-08, 06:55 PM	@fighter I wasn't talking about combats (although even there proper battlefield control abilities will usually help you keep your squishies away from the enemy better than the five feet of impassable terrain that is the DD) - Magrus referred to the dwarven defender being able to block a corridor as long as it takes the rest of the party to, well, rest. For that, my parties usually set up a rotating watch. As for the five feet part, I did mention the potions of enlarge as a way to deal with that. Further, I really wonder what ability the dwarven defender has to protect the spellcaster from the arrows you mentioned. The DD may not be in defensive stance during the whole battle and the party should have some ranged support of its own. You mean, that awful DC 5 Climb Check? Missed that part of the spell description. Still, the caster is moving at less than 10ft/round, so depending on the length of the rope, he might wind up becoming a pincusion.
Killy 03-10-08, 07:24 PM	You might want to take some levels of Psychic Warrior, pick the power Expansion, take a Spiked Chain learn to use it (exotic weapon prof.) and rock with the Defensive Stance. A very solid build would be: Fighter 2 PsyWar 8 DDef 10 You would get 6 fighter bonus feats and your regular feats every 3 levels, good feats for this would be: Level 1: Toughness [PHB / d20SRD] Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) [PHB / d20SRD] Fighter 2: Combat Expertise [PHB / d20SRD] Level 3: Combat Reflexes [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar1: Improved Trip [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar2: Improved Disarm [PHB / d20SRD] Level 6: Stand Still [XPH / d20SRD] PsyWar5: Dodge [PHB / d20SRD] Level 9: Endurance [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar8: Power Attack [PHB / d20SRD] Level 12: Steadfast Determination [PHB II] You will need minimun scores in Str, Dex and Int of 13 each to take Stand Still, Power Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise... but you should take 14 in Int for the extra skill point and dump Wis and Cha, after all you will end up using your Constitution mod. for Will Saves instead of Wisdom's with Steadfast Determination. This is a dwarven 1st level character made with 25 point buy: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 7. At 11th character level you should take your first DD level.
Cifer 03-11-08, 12:31 AM	The DD may not be in defensive stance during the whole battle and the party should have some ranged support of its own. Of course it would, but the situation you gave was a battle going badly and a spellcaster being very few ranged attacks away from death with no cover nearby. If the dwarven defender now goes in to melee with the enemy archers, chances are he'll be so far beyond the enemy lines his pals (who were more intent on fleeing) can't help him survive it either - and of course, he's just abandoned his squishy allies to the enemy meleers too. I'd rather have a mobile character go after enemy ranged combatants... Further, using a Rope Trick in this situation is using the wrong tool. Depending on the exact situation, a Wall of Whatever or Teleport or even a Baleful Transposition may work a little better.
fighter_mcwarrior 03-11-08, 01:26 PM	Of course it would, but the situation you gave was a battle going badly and a spellcaster being very few ranged attacks away from death with no cover nearby. If the dwarven defender now goes in to melee with the enemy archers, chances are he'll be so far beyond the enemy lines his pals (who were more intent on fleeing) can't help him survive it either - and of course, he's just abandoned his squishy allies to the enemy meleers too. I'd rather have a mobile character go after enemy ranged combatants... Not sure why he would wait for the battle to turn ugly to break his stance and attack the archers. Depending on the situation, he may not even need to use the defensive stance at all. Of course, if the squishies are under attack, the DD could stand in front and use his tower shield as total cover (great for those breath weapon moments :D ). Then again, the party's ranged support could focus on the archers while the DD keeps the squishies out of melee. Further, using a Rope Trick in this situation is using the wrong tool. Depending on the exact situation, a Wall of Whatever or Teleport or even a Baleful Transposition may work a little better. Agreed.
vaderboy 04-07-08, 10:29 PM	I showed my player all of your suggestions and there were two of them that really jumped at him. He liked the knight and the cleric suggestions very much and is considering using one. So can someone suggest a good build using one (or both) of those classes and the DD
Magrus 04-08-08, 11:13 AM	@Magrus That's not exactly something I couldn't cover with a Wall of Iron (or Stone) and a Disintegrate the next morning... or a Rope Trick, for that matter. And, what's even better: The Rope Trick is invisible and survives a few peltings with arrows from range... I'm afraid "being exchangeable for a 2nd level spell" is not exactly the mark of usefulness a class should aim for. Completely forgot about this thread. There are situations one, or both of those instances just won't work. Say, for instance, your wizard is dead, or you are in a campaign where certain spells don't work properly. I happen to be running a game where the latter is going to be occurring, so Rope Trick is out for the party, and the former is a likely thing to be dealing with as well. As I mentioned earlier, it's not always the best idea to pick what is the most optimal solution for when things are going your way. When you are going to be in a situation where its likely to be going bad the whole game, sometimes its better to plan for that instead. That way, when your God goes down, your party isn't crippled and running scared. Granted, while one of these characters would be like a 3rd wheel most of the time for the party in my game, I know that once the party has lost their spells per day, a good chunk of HP, and perhaps had one of their weapons lost or sundered and are on the run? They might start relying on one character more than the other just to keep them alive and well through the night as they are being hounded in my dungeon. A character like this would be able to do that, where a wizard who had been hit from behind in an ambush wouldn't be able to. This will probably end up happening on a regular basis as well, and therefore make this character useful above and beyond what it would be in any normal campaign. You are right though, in any normal situation where the party is healthy and not restricted, your way would be a much better deal and what I would use myself.
Rebel7284 04-08-08, 12:07 PM	Do you have Races of Stone? Deepwarden is a very nice, very dwarfy class who adds his CON bonus to AC instead of DEX.
vaderboy 04-09-08, 05:05 PM	Rebel, if you didn't have races of stone I would swear to God that you are the player that I'm talking about. Please tell me that your name isn't Jared.
Holy_Beholder 04-09-08, 07:40 PM	You might want to take some levels of Psychic Warrior, pick the power Expansion, take a Spiked Chain learn to use it (exotic weapon prof.) and rock with the Defensive Stance. A very solid build would be: Fighter 2 PsyWar 8 DDef 10 You would get 6 fighter bonus feats and your regular feats every 3 levels, good feats for this would be: Level 1: Toughness [PHB / d20SRD] Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) [PHB / d20SRD] Fighter 2: Combat Expertise [PHB / d20SRD] Level 3: Combat Reflexes [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar1: Improved Trip [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar2: Improved Disarm [PHB / d20SRD] Level 6: Stand Still [XPH / d20SRD] PsyWar5: Dodge [PHB / d20SRD] Level 9: Endurance [PHB / d20SRD] PsyWar8: Power Attack [PHB / d20SRD] Level 12: Steadfast Determination [PHB II] You will need minimun scores in Str, Dex and Int of 13 each to take Stand Still, Power Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise... but you should take 14 in Int for the extra skill point and dump Wis and Cha, after all you will end up using your Constitution mod. for Will Saves instead of Wisdom's with Steadfast Determination. This is a dwarven 1st level character made with 25 point buy: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 7. At 11th character level you should take your first DD level. You don't need toughness. How about Weapon focus Spiked Chain at level 1 instead. Toughness is crap.
Nephlite 04-09-08, 08:52 PM	Do you have Races of Stone? Deepwarden is a very nice, very dwarfy class who adds his CON bonus to AC instead of DEX. Sadly, DeepWarden is a two level dip (the abillities after 2 suck) that requires a 2 Ranger levels (for skill requirements), but great investmet for any warrior. I mean, by level 20, you can have about 34 Con (assuming astarting Con 18 +2 Racial if Dwarf): meaning +12 to AC and armor no limit it. If Can't afford 18 base, than 16 is fine (6 less in point buy), still +11 AC.
CrimsonDeath 04-09-08, 09:17 PM	There's some debate about whether an armor's max Dex bonus applies to a Deepwarden's Constitution bonus to AC (since it replaces the character's Dexterity bonus to AC).
changing-winds11 04-09-08, 10:25 PM	There's some debate about whether an armor's max Dex bonus applies to a Deepwarden's Constitution bonus to AC (since it replaces the character's Dexterity bonus to AC). Really? Do you know where that debate is taking place? or do you have a link to it? It seems like unless Deep Warden's ability says "A deep-Warden gains his Con Mod to his AC in the same way as he would his Dex Mod", then it isn't the same. A Dex mod adds to your AC by increasing your ability to dodge/maneuver - that's why when you're wearing heavier armor you can't add as much Dex Mod to your ac. Whereas, wearing armor doesn't normally impede anything that your Con Modifier affects. Just my :twocents: EDIT: Of Course, this is just my opinion - though it seems like it would make sense.
Rebel7284 04-10-08, 12:45 AM	Rebel, if you didn't have races of stone I would swear to God that you are the player that I'm talking about. Please tell me that your name isn't Jared. My name is not Jared. And i also don't generally play fighter types, twisting the fabric of the universe is so much more fun. However, several weeks ago, i found the dragonborn mineral warrior mongelfolk, ranger/stoneblessed/dwarf paragon/fist of the forest/deepwarden to be amusing due to the AC bonus being very ridiculous at higher levels. When your starting CON is +10, your class choices give you +4 more, you put 5 more points from leveling and you buy a tome and a +6 item, that's a nice 18+10+4+5+5+6 = 48 CON. Added to your AC twise = +38 bonus when not wearing any armor not to mention nice hit points and fort saves. You also have DR and natural armor, and if you wish bracers of armor.
Leress 04-10-08, 01:15 AM	You don't need toughness. How about Weapon focus Spiked Chain at level 1 instead. Toughness is crap. Toughness is required to enter the DD class.
Demetri_Knighthawk 04-10-08, 02:04 AM	Dwarven cleric(earth and protection)/DD build (feat choices and spec abilities) 1) turn undead/air elementals, rebuke/empower earth elementals, dodge 2) 3) endurance 4) +wis 5) 6) touighness 7) 8) +wis 9) combat expertise 10) 11) defensive stance, +1ac, martial weapon prof 12) Improved disarm, improved dodge +dex 13) 14) 15) mobility 16)+dex 17) 18) spring attack 19) 20)+dex Now obviously the stats at every 4 th level is variable, but no feat selection has anything higher than a 13 stat. A variant to this would be to drop the improved disarm for whirlwind attack later. Request from your DM for a ring of enlarge person, basicly stat out a ring of invisability and replace the 2nd level invisability with 1st level enlarge person and crunch the numbers. most of the buff spells are 5th level and lower so your cleric spells wont go to waste if to buff yourself. At 10th level earth cleric you get access to wall of stone, a shapable terain adjustment spell, shape the room to make a bottleneck around your dwarven defender, make the wall with a hole 5X5 with your tower shielded dwarf in that hole.
CrimsonDeath 04-10-08, 04:21 AM	Really? Do you know where that debate is taking place? or do you have a link to it? I've mostly seen it debated on the CharOp board, although any threads discussing it will probably be pretty old. It seems like unless Deep Warden's ability says "A deep-Warden gains his Con Mod to his AC in the same way as he would his Dex Mod", then it isn't the same. It doesn't say that in so many words. However... You add your Constitution modifier to AC instead of your Dexterity modifier, if your Constitution modifier is higher. You lose your Constitution bonus to AC if you would normally be denied your Dexterity bonus to AC. So, it replaces your Dex bonus to AC and applies only when you would normally be able to apply your Dex bonus to AC. There are some people who feel that it should be subject to other restrictions placed on the Dexterity bonus to AC, and there are some people who don't. One of the biggest reasons I can think of that you would want armor to limit it would be game balance. Incidentally, I just realized something... Suppose a Deepwarden has 16 Dex, 14 Con, and is wearing full plate. He has to use his Dex bonus because it's higher, but he can't use all of it because of his armor.
changing-winds11 04-11-08, 01:33 AM	Yeah, I looked at it in the Races of Stone today and I saw that. It struck me too that the main reason to make it not work in heavy armor is for game balance. However, from the passage where it describes that ability, it seems to say that it specifically means in the type of instances where something like sneak attack applies - so whenever the Deep Warden is flat-footed; etc - not simply because of something like Max Dex Bonus from Armor. Of course, I will have to look at it again to see - I don't have it with me. EDIT: Also, darn you WOTC - can you never be specific and absolutely definitive about ANYTHING :P ? Of course, it could be argued that Max Dex Bonus from armor does not Deny the Dex Mod from your armor - it simply never allows you to gain that bonus in the first place.. or something.. yeah, it's just a wee bit late at night. If this makes sense to anyone else, awesome. If not, it probably won't to me either tomorrow morning.
CrimsonDeath 04-11-08, 03:30 AM	That's why just about every Deepwarden build I put together (even theoretically) also has at least one level of Fist of the Forest. You don't have to worry about max dex bonus if you're not wearing armor anyway.
vaderboy 04-11-08, 02:58 PM	My name is not Jared. And i also don't generally play fighter types, twisting the fabric of the universe is so much more fun. Good I was worried that my players were reading my posts and I have secret campaign details in some of the others...