Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raven darqhart 02-22-06, 01:46 PM	I, personally, am getting fed up with the inclusion of guns in fantasy settings. The entire point of rpgs(or so I was told over a decade ago) was to escape from reality for a bit and become someone else. Nothing more epitomizes the bleakness of our reality like firearms and bombs. I've shot many people, but I've never run someone through. I'm sure I'm different than a lot of people, but some of you have to understand where I'm coming from here. If you want guns in your game, play Anachronism or d20 Modern or d20 Past or World of Darkness, but guns don't belong in AD&D.
BeyondFated 02-22-06, 01:54 PM	It all depends on personal taste. Many people think that fantasy is only magic, knights, dragons, ect.. But fantasy is just that, fantasy. It can be anything that a person desires, and be no better or worse than someone else's definition of fantasy. And its sometimes nice to have elements from reality when one tries to escape from it. I for one love the thought of guns in DnD, and playing in an Forgotten Realms western style game, or what have you. I'm sure that many people are going to think like you, and say that guns have no place in fantasy. And theres nothing wrong with that. But remember, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-22-06, 02:01 PM	They damn sure belong in My Fantasy (http://www.worldofere.com) and you've no right to tell me otherwise.
Kerri_Evanwood 02-22-06, 02:07 PM	Guns don't belong in my campaign world, nor do I like to play in D&D campaigns where firearms are commonplace. Those are just my personal tastes.
Sir Knight 02-22-06, 02:13 PM	Guns don't belong in my campaign world, nor do I like to play in D&D campaigns where firearms are commonplace. Those are just my personal tastes. I second that post.
Archmage_of_Legacy 02-22-06, 02:14 PM	For me it depends on what type of Guns you are refering to. Modern Era guns? No way. For me though that could be FANTASY, it has to much of a real life feel to it. Now I have no problem with the old Flint Lock, smoke powder pistols used by pirates. Provided that there is a chance that the gun could back fire everytime it is used. But each DM will allow what they feel is FANTASY.
The White Sorcerer 02-22-06, 02:15 PM	I've shot many people, but I've never run someone through. I've never shot anybody, nor have I run anyone through. I have, however, punched quite a few people. Yet unarmed strikes exist in my game. Also, if you don't like guns in fantasy, don't use guns in fantasy. Let those who like guns in fantasy use guns in fantasy.
Joni-san 02-22-06, 02:15 PM	Fantasy is many things and thus for some it contains guns. Not all fantasy has to be medieval europe.
kam_Islash 02-22-06, 02:15 PM	In my world only gnomes have guns, and theyre the crappy single shot, musket type guns. They can be magically enhanced like any other weapon, but they take a full 2 rounds to load and only do 1d8 of damage. Basically, its a dead end technology that only a few enthusiasts dabble in because magic is way better. Because lets face it, magic pwns technology. The only time I include it in my games is to show how much is sucks.
Sikyanakotik 02-22-06, 02:24 PM	Do guns belong in fantasy? Depends on the fantasy. If you're the DM and don't like them, don't use them. If you're not the DM and the inclusion of firearms is causing you serious trouble, perhaps you should either bring it up with him or find a new game. Just remember that there is precident for firearms in certain fantasy worlds, such as Stephen King's Dark Tower series.
JulesCARV 02-22-06, 02:29 PM	Quiz: which came into common usage first: arquebuses or rapiers? Regardless, one of the things I like about D&D is that its setting isn't really very heavily prescribed. It has some distinctive elements, like the Planes, but overall, its mechanics and setting aren't heavily stacked toward, "you must play a game of Tolkienesque high fantasy with battles against orcs," or "you must play a game of Lovecraftian horror, fighting against human-looking aberrations infiltrating society," or "you must play a game of gothic horror in a city ruled by vampires who keep the living population in near-slavery," or "you must play a planar game trying to escape the epic war between Law and Chaos." These are all possible, and more, but D&D is a slightly generic system (not as generic, as say, GURPS, but more generic than, say, Vampire or Shadowrun). Specific campaign settings may be more closely prescribed, but I think the mild genericism of D&D is one of its virtues. There may be a slight push in the game system toward Tolkienesque fantasy, but it's possible to adapt it to much more. I think that firearms are in line with this: D&D isn't exactly "1258 A.D. equivalent" or anything. Technologically, it's any time from the early iron age to about 1600, with magic thrown in to screw everything up. I think that rules should exist (maybe not core, but supplemental, like psionics) for firearms. DMs should ban them if they don't like them. I think that AK-47s should be right out, but, say, an arquebus, for instance, as an exotic weapon, that does 2d6 ranged damage, but takes takes a full round action to load, wouldn't be imbalanced, because many would rather just have a composite longbow.
ArtEChoke 02-22-06, 03:23 PM	I've shot many people Perhaps you should stop. but I've never run someone through.perhaps you should eh... start? :confused: If you want guns in your game, play Anachronism or d20 Modern or d20 Past or World of Darkness, but guns don't belong in AD&D. Eh, so let me get this straight, you object to... people - anyone - everybody... not just *yourself,* playing the game with firearms included? What kind of discussion were you hoping to start?
Fanged Fremont 02-22-06, 03:40 PM	I enjoy the flavor of having flintlockes in one the campaigns I play in. It's just that the stats for them in the DMG doesn't give them enough oomph to be more than flavor weapons. The games about having fun. If you can't have fun with guns that's fine. Some people do.
Elbethamore 02-22-06, 03:42 PM	I've never shot anybody, nor have I run anyone through. I have, however, punched quite a few people. Yet unarmed strikes exist in my game. I've never shot anybody, run anyone through, or punched someone (as an adult), but I have engaged in battles of biting sarcasm and insult. I still permit such activity in my games, however. :P
The_Last_Rogue 02-22-06, 03:57 PM	This is odd, I was pretty much going to post this exact post under a DM thread - my point, however, was not to rant for or against guns in campaigns - it was to get a feel for it. I am building a homebrew, and in that I really like the idea of Dwarves and Gnomes living in the same areas and the like, both exploring the world of engineering. As such, I thought that these two would have come up with explosives and firearms on a primitive scale Can people tell me how it works in their campaigns, where you have both swords and firearms or direct me to a place where I can read up on firearm rules - thanks.
OneSidedDice 02-22-06, 04:08 PM	I think guns have their place in certain settings, as long as it's done well. I played in a game where the DM sent us through a portal straight from Stargate into some neo-Egyptian society where we ended up collecting handfuls of pistols, rifles, and a chaingun from the armory to fight some evil creature. That was ridiculous. However, I feel I successfully implemented Renaissance-era firearms in my homebrew campaign world. In this campaign world, most deities had "adopted" a section of the human race, and the god of fire gave the secret of gunpowder to his followers as a gift. It's worked out pretty well so far, I think. Guns deal a decent amount of damage, but they have slow reload times. My PCs enjoyed the novelty of their backup ranged weapon being a musket rather than a crossbow, and it makes a 1st-level warrior mildly frightening when he can hit you for d12 at range. I created a few firearm-specific feats, and added a firearm combat style for rangers, to allow characters dedicated to the use of firearms to be viable. The_Last_Rogue, if you're interested, send me a PM sometime. I'll send you the material I have for it.
DragonDeadite 02-22-06, 04:11 PM	Alright, here's another point of view... I used to think the exact same as the OP. Firearms are a NO-NO!! Even had my friend buy me a book as a joke that combined sci-fi and fantasy (Year of the Comet I think is the book)... even came to the point of leaving a game because it had a single flintlock in it. Yeah... just a flintlock and I left the game... but... in the last couple of years I've actualy grown up. I finished up my last campaign by having the PCs go fighting against an army of half-undead, half-machine (Warjacks from Iron Kingdoms) something that I never would have done a few years ago. I even purchased the Iron Kingdoms books because they look very cool and the idea behind the setting just appeals to me. It is filled with guns, cannons, mechanized warriors that go to war against each other, even armor that is run by steampower. People's feeling and likes change over time, and maybe if you gave it a chance in a setting where firearms make sense, you could have a load of fun. If you don't want to play in that kind of a game, be like me and run away for no good reason. But... to each their own. As to firearms... go look in the Iron Kingdoms books. I rather like their set on firearms and even mechanical weapons (meckanikal weapons). You can see some of their stuff on PrivateerPress.com. No one should tell others that they should or shouldn't allow firearms. That's up to the people playing the game and what they want to do.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-22-06, 04:32 PM	Can people tell me how it works in their campaigns, where you have both swords and firearms or direct me to a place where I can read up on firearm rules - thanks. My Campaign Setting (listed above) has 1800's firearms alongside traditional weapons.
morganm 02-22-06, 04:40 PM	Depends on the fantasy :) I don't care for them when playing AD&D. Although I like how Blizzard has incorperated them into their fantasy MMORPG. I wouldnt be opposed to something similar in a D&D campaign. However I definatly wouldnt play a D&D campaign with gnomes packing glocks and uzis :P Personaly I'm not into the whole modern and futuristic fantasy games. I like Dungeons and I like them to have Dragons :D
The_Last_Rogue 02-22-06, 04:48 PM	Thanks everyone. I will look further into this and make up my mind. Thanks to Vaalingrade Ashland; your website should prove very helpful if I decide to go with firearms (which I believe I will)
Morotis 02-22-06, 04:55 PM	My campaigns have some Renosance (I know it's misspelled!) guns, then I decided Gnomes would make a magic cannon called a.... Dragun :rimshot: It's essentially a shoulder mounted cannon made of the various parts of dragons, from bones to hide to internal organs. you load 5 ounces of gunpowder into it and it fires either a 30 foot line or 15 foot cone of fire. Once a Pc got kinda thrilled to find guns in the game and made a character who used them alot. together we made a 'Gunslinger' PrC... The World of Warcraft RPG book has some good stuff for guns. Guns have caused some funny things in my game, like when a fighter (Int 6) decided to buy a half-dozen rifles with bayonets and throw them at people like spears that didn't work out so well...
MindLich 02-22-06, 04:58 PM	Guns don't belong in my campaign world, nor do I like to play in D&D campaigns where firearms are commonplace. Those are just my personal tastes. Ditto.
Daergal_the_Black 02-22-06, 05:15 PM	I enjoy games that use firearms. If anything the aspect that I don't like is that too many DMs nerf the stats of firearms below what would be realistic in order to keep conventional fantasy weapons competitive. If a DM feels he has to do that, then I think he or she should just forego adding firearms all together (or stick to the very early models which has serious mechanical problems in a one-on-one fight). A Colt .45 automatic does *not* do 1d10 damage once per round. That gun is to an arrow what meteor swarm is to a single magic missile. Just make the firearms available to everyone, and don't worry so much about balance. As for their not being "fantasy", to each his own. In my view the myths of the Wild West are all "fantasy" in teht they are not realistic depictions of life on the American frontier. No where in the rules does it say that only Tolkienesque fantasy is allowed in game. The DMG even lists stats (albeit ridiculously poor stats) for antimatter rifles, because all types of fantasy (including sci-fi) are fair game.
Crimson_Concerto 02-22-06, 05:32 PM	There's little I can say that hasn't already been said. Everything has a place in fantasy if you do it right, and unless I want to run a historically accurate campaign (which I happen not to find very fun, as it would mean no magic), I couldn't care less whether my PCs choose slingshots or shotguns as their weapons. I just ask they make cool characters, so that I care what happens to them a little bit. I combat mechanics issues by having unstatted weapons use the rules for their most similar D&D counterpast, so guns usually use the rules for some form of crossbow. In fact, I've even been known to have enemies who use chainsaws as weapons (a Greatsword seemed most appropriate here). If I wanted to include cannons, I could use the rules for a ballista. There's nothing wrong with this. I have personally never thought up any character concepts that would lend itself to firearms, but if I do, why shouldn't I be allowed to play it? I just use the rules for some sort of crossbow, and I'm all set. No need to make any sort of campaign adjustments to suit this character, but even if you want to, it's not at all difficult and has no significant repercussions.
loki87 02-22-06, 05:55 PM	I'm currently dealing with this same issue as I design my latest campaign, which will revolve around pirates. While I have nothing against guns in fantasy adventures, I tend to keep them out of most of my campaigns because they don't really fit the theme and can become a little unbalanced. However, in this case I'm leaning towards including them in a very limited fashion.
TheGrouchUT 02-22-06, 06:01 PM	Nothing more epitomizes the bleakness of our reality like firearms and bombs. Polio, the bubonic plague, and getting chopped into pieces and a life expectancy of 30 years seem pretty bleak to me. Either way, depends who's fantasy it is.
JamesDruidDM 02-22-06, 06:11 PM	Guns are fine -if they work for your campaign setting -
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-22-06, 06:12 PM	They are in mine. The inventor class can make just about anything, and one of the common things is a 6 shot revolver. EDIT: And from the 30-second skim I did, your campaign setting seems cool, Vaalindegarde.
serow_#R 02-22-06, 09:20 PM	they sure do for me :)
Rumple_Cragstan 02-22-06, 09:55 PM	Saying you don't want guns in D&D because they bring it too close to the real world is like saying that you're not going to have the color green in your D&D game because green is a huge part of the real world. Its personal oppinion. I have a question for everyone though, seriously. Whats the difference, statistically, between a longbow and a modern-day pistol? Hell, the gun is probably *less* powerful in a D&D game! You can fire a bow as many times in the round as you have attacks. The pistol can fire as many times in the round as you have attacks until you need to reload. The longbow has an effective range of 100-110ft (depending on type) The pistol has a shorter range than that, without a doubt. I would say that the range increment of a handgun is probably about 50-60ft. The longbow deals 1d8 damage The pistol would probably deal about 1d6-1d8 damage These points show that the longbow is actually better than the average pistol, and I didn't even bring up ammo costs. Now, onto the non-statistic side of the argument. Fantasy is what people make it to be. That is why Ebberon is so successful - because its a world that breaks the traditional fantasy realms. In the current incarnation of D&D, we have andriods (Warforged), aircraft (Astral Ships, because they can be converted to material plane usage), Trains (Lightning Rail) and any other number of modern technology-like items and creatures. If you want to play in Middle-Earth, then buy the CS. But don't harp on anyone who went through the time to add firearms to thier game, unless you want them to pick apart your style and tell you how many things are wrong with *your* game. All in all, any sufficiently superior example of Technology is indistinguishable from Magic. The same goes the other way. The lack of guns in D&D is just a sacred cow thats overrated and kept around for no good reason. As well, I have a suggestion for you guys: play the following games to get a better idea of how guns might work in fantasy settings (because all of them are far from realistic): Wild Arms (1-4) World of Warcraft Final Fantasy (7, 8, 10, 12)
Loopy 02-22-06, 10:01 PM	They damn sure belong in My Fantasy (http://www.worldofere.com) and you've no right to tell me otherwise. Good one, dude, here's mine... http://harvestmooncampaign.com/ And the Gunslinger class is on this page... http://harvestmooncampaign.com/classes.htm
TheChilliGod 02-22-06, 10:22 PM	There is no better way to tell someone you love them, than shooting them in the face with a handgun during the 1200's. Guns. The way of the future. --- Guns are alright, IMO. I don't use them in my campaign (Though I have mentioned that the gnomes are inventing them) but I do know of one campaign where guns are in use, (nobles only) and the guns don't seem to detract from the game. Certainly not SW laser rifles, but just your simple heavy crossbows that only need one hand, they add a touch of true fantasy to the game. Like Final Fantasy, or Eberron.
Darkuwa 02-22-06, 10:41 PM	Dwarf thanes and gnome engineer's can have a pistols or muskets. Therfore, if the adventurers do favors for such people they may be able to earn such weapons.
OgreMonk 02-22-06, 10:56 PM	As someone who has shot and run through hundreds/thousands of people :weep: , I think this has NOTHING to do with D&D. Nothing I am proud of either, just to clarify. If it works in your world, good for you. If not, that is OK too. Just depends on your world. I play in two campaigns. They are common and not in common in both. Truth be told, I prefer the campaign without. No solid reason.
Telinar Beln 02-23-06, 09:00 AM	I draw your attention to Warhammer Fantasy (not 40k, where everyone has guns). The game has mages, knights, monstrous beasts, the ubiquitous dragons, elves, dwarves and....firearms. The Empire Army (human), has what are termed handgunners, though it's a misnomer, they're using flintlocks, Pistoliers, who ride on horseback like gunslingers, Empire Engineers can weild primitive machine guns and sniper rifles. The Empire has an Artillery Corps, with Cannons and mortars and the Hellblaster Volleygun (a huge machine gun type weapon. It's balanced in the way that it has a very high misfire chance and tends to blow up in your face before you can do too much damage, but I've been lucky :D). The Dwarves created the Black[gun]powder tech and have their own firearms teams. You can run simple firearms, say experimental prototypes that have a 25% chance of exploding in your face, take a full turn to load but have say armour piercing capabilities. I believe that DnD has cannons? I may be wrong but I'm sure it does. All it is is a simple measure of shrinking the technology to hand held proportions. However, it is a measure of taste. I do prefer it without weapons (my post is getting a little hypocritical...ah well I like playing devil's advocate) as it is escapism but each to their own
GreyGriffin 02-23-06, 11:27 AM	Minor point of contention... the handguns in Warhammer Fantasy are accurately named. Guns originally referred to cannons and other emplaced artillery. The development of the arquebus and other match-fired firearms allowed the weapons to be carried by hand rather than wheeled into place. Hence, Hand Guns. As for firearms in a fantasy setting... I personally love 'em. They have a lot of character, and I am a big fan of "magic" guns, a la the Caster in Outlaw Star. Imagine an arcane archer with a primitive breech-loading (or break-action) rifle, or even early cartridge revolver. Awesomeness. Now, granted, bringing a desert eagle into Greyhawk just doesn't fit, and how suitable your fantasy is for firearms depends on the mood of the setting, just like katana, monks, paladins, and even clerics. But rejecting them outright from D&D is a bad call.
High Octane 02-23-06, 11:28 AM	Guns dont kill campaigns. People kill campaigns.
Syd_Galion 02-23-06, 12:43 PM	I used to think guns had no place in D&D, but it turns out I was only a dumb kid. If you dont like to use them well I won argue with you on that because it is your choice after all. I just like the visual aspect of a firearm discharging.
danzig138 02-23-06, 07:34 PM	If you want guns in your game, play Anachronism or d20 Modern or d20 Past or World of Darkness, but guns don't belong in AD&D.Did I miss a memo? The one that made you Boss God Al-freaking-mighty? Now that you've told me what to do and what is, let me return the favor. Bite me jack ass. I'll play whatever game I want to. I sure don't need you trying to tell me what belongs where. Don't like something? WTF do I care what you like or want? You're not the sum total of the audience. Guns have been in AD&D for a very long time. Since at least the introduction of Heward. But most importantly, I don't play AD&D. That line has been discontinued for along time. I play D&D. Thanks for registering.
Bruunwald 02-23-06, 07:51 PM	Star Wars is fantasy and it has guns (blasters). Pirates of the Carribean is a fantasy film with guns and cannons. The Dark Tower books are fantasy, too. "Fantasy" does not equal Tolkien, Eddings and/or D&D, though Tolkien, Eddings and D&D do = fantasy.
Daergal_the_Black 02-23-06, 08:24 PM	Why do so many people feel that their conception of the game is the end-all, be-all, one-and-only way to play? Should there be a wide array of non-standard base classes? Should psionics "be allowed"? Do guns "belong" in the game? The answer is: "Yes, if you want them, and no, if you do not" on all counts. D&D is a game that allows for a wide array of conceptions and tweaks based on personal tastes and individual creativity. A DM who prefers his tweaks to yours is not a personal challenge or a threat.
High Octane 02-24-06, 08:11 AM	Did I miss a memo? The one that made you Boss God Al-freaking-mighty? Now that you've told me what to do and what is, let me return the favor. Bite me jack ass. I'll play whatever game I want to. I sure don't need you trying to tell me what belongs where. Don't like something? WTF do I care what you like or want? You're not the sum total of the audience. Guns have been in AD&D for a very long time. Since at least the introduction of Heward. But most importantly, I don't play AD&D. That line has been discontinued for along time. I play D&D. Thanks for registering. http://www.anger-management-techniques.org/
Mandarbgrim 02-24-06, 02:07 PM	If the point of D&D is escapism..well..most people don't run around shooting each other. So it is as much a "fantasy" of sorts to use weapons. I agree that I tend to like the idea of firearms in a D&D game, as long as they are something that isn't to the point of pushing out the more traditional "fantasy" weapons, yet. Just a note, Cannons and such didn't become dominate, so to speak, until the French invaded northern Italy during the 1500's-1600's or thereabouts. I believe it was after Machavelia* was writing The Prince and such. Another note, Native Americans in the Northeast easily dealt with settlers using matchlock weapons. If better firearms hadn't come around quickly then the U.S. may have been radically different. Firearms just become a different kind of ranged weapon, and I like the flavor of a Palidan in full plate carrying around a greatsword, and a musket. This has probably been esculated from playing World of Warcraft and playing with Warriors who run around with a Musket on their back.
rbingham2000 02-24-06, 02:26 PM	Firearms just become a different kind of ranged weapon, and I like the flavor of a Paladin in full plate carrying around a greatsword, and a musket. Or a rapier and two pistols, like with Solomon Kane. Robert E. Howard showed us quite plainly that you can incorporate guns into a setting, but still have the story be undeniably fantasy.
olshanski_home 02-24-06, 02:32 PM	Sniper rifles do not belong in fantasy, but wands of magic missile (10th CL) do. Bazooka's do not belong in fantasy, but wands of fireball do. Blaster Rifles do not belong in fantasy, but wands of disintigration do.
Tzor 02-24-06, 03:18 PM	When I started playing D&D back in the early 80's the DMs of my group had the dreaded M16 of sharpness. (Sharpness in 1st ed was like vorpal only it worked on a random appendage instead of just the head.) From that I can say, and this is my general opinion, that modern guns spoil the flavor of true fantasy. On the other hand, authentic medieval and even rennisance weapons are too rotten and pathetic to maintain the flavor of true fantasy. A medieval gun often misfired especially if the powder became wet through direct contact with water or simply because the air was excessively humid that day. This continued through the civil war. A civil war breech loaded rifle was found on the battlefield with 10 loads rammed in it. After the first misfire the fog and noise of war caused the poor soldger to keep loading his weapon not knowing that he wasn't actually firing it. A revlutionary war musket doesn't have the max range as that listed in the DMG. Medieval cannons used to explode causing a whole lot of friendly fire casualties. I may be wrong here, but it was naval warfare where the linear nature of canon fire allowed massive canons on ships that spurred cannon development so that the weapon could outperform the real weapon of the mideval day ... the trebuchet. (And only then because it was hard to move and set up a trebuchet, not because of distance or damage.) We really can blame cannons for all the technological problems of the modern day. It was the drilling of the insides of the canon from solid blocks of metal where the real potential for the power of steam was discovered. (They were drilled underwater because of the amount of heat metal on metal generated. Someone measured how much it took to boil the water and the rest is history.) But in the real scheme of things firearms didn't cause much change in the world. It wasn't the musket that killed full armor, but the death of the whole "knights can only kill knights" mentality. Peasants with polearms brought down far more knights on their high horses than muskets did. There is a genre of fantasy that concentrates on the three muskateers style of play. (I really have to read all of the books one day, I don't recall a single event in which those musketeers actually used their muskets over their rapiers.) There are also varieties that have a blend. In modern gaming we routinely mix melee weapons that frankly have no business being in the same era. Consider a barbarian with a two handed axe attacking a bard with a rapier. EXCUSE ME? Guns belong to fantasy as much as the crossbow does. (Crossbows were outlawed by the church and could only be used against heathens in part because it allowed the common man to down a knight. Ironically this did not cause the death of full plate, just as the musket did not cause the death of full plate.) The real question is whether or not cannons belong in fantasy. Here too the answer is yes. The anchient red dragon is going to still be vastly superior over the iron spitting "dragoon."
Koga:The ninja trick 02-24-06, 03:37 PM	Ofcourse guns fit in fantasy settings, all technology does.. Despite what you're convinced to believe, people in elder times were not technologicaly ignorant, they just didn't have the time or money to make use out of it, most people were too busy milking cows and avoiding a bear attack to contend with technological advancement. (Which was perhaps better) because people took it more seriously, and respected the laws of nature and saved technology for only the most prestigeous of people.. Way before the car was invented Leonardo Davinci thought it up, he was not only an artist but a brillaint scientist, he just never had time to delve into his scientific mind because he was making a living as an artist.. And there's no greater proof of elder technology like the pyramids or stone-henge, which baffle even today's scientists of how they were created.. more then likely if you're going to put technology in a fantasy setting, you should, but make it more inclined to be bright and colourful, perhaps even cartoony over what we're use to nowadays.. A gun would probably look differant from the last one, having swirves and artistic patterns to make each gun hold some sortof value over the last one, cars would have a more exotic shape and be less "family friendly" and more inclined to strike the attention of commoners.. And ofcourse there'd be missle-launchers, tanks, and fighter-jets.. but let's face it, modern society doesn't even have access to such weapons, do you think fantasy settings will? With common sense and realistic probability, you can probably make a more kickass fantasy/sci fi build then if you were to just let anything go..
Doopliss 02-24-06, 04:00 PM	Hm, try this... Guns are fine and good, but with all the magic in your average D&D world they're not likely to be your average guns. Perhaps, each gun can be enchanted with one spell at a time and have its general form altered to accomodate. The cost would be, hm... The cost of making a wand of that spell + permanency. The spells wouldn't have thier printed effects, the DM would probably have to make something up. A Fireball might, for example, deal 2d6 fire to one target with a ranged touch attack. Telekenesis would allow to to launch anything smaller than a human head with range increments similar to the Longbow, become a Gravity Gun, or both. Then there are the few that work perfectly with the preset effect like Ray of Enfeeblement, though they should have a solid effect, none of that '/level' stuff. A good guideline for straight damage guns would be the spell level times 1d6, perhaps. Any gun requres one rank in Use Magic Device to use, and they would have a one round 'recharge' time. Also a good idea to keep it relatively within the realm of projectiles. Explosive runes could create a grenade launcher and Heat metal an alchemical bullet of some type. but charm monster and programmed image guns would be a bit weird. In the end, it's the DM's call, though I'd rule out all Illusions and Enchantments. Ooh, I think the Gnomes might have to 'invent' those in my campaign... ;) EDIT: Of course they'd look much more old-fashioned than modern guns, possibly even Wooden. A Craft (Gunforging) might also be a good idea for making guns and affixing spells to said guns.
The Great Alchemist 02-24-06, 04:28 PM	My friends and I usually prefer our D&D setting to have a more historical feel to the setting or cultures represented in game. So some campaigns might be late in a later Renaissance era where there are pirates, musketeers, people in frilly clothing, and also guns. In another setting we might be in the equivalent of the dark ages where plate armor doesn't even exist, or perhaps in the bronze age when an iron weapon would be rare and precious. In those setting a gun would be out of place. It all just depends on the flavor we want in the game. Its not right or wrong, its just how everything meshes together to create a pleasant gaming world. I have never played in a fantasy style game where the existance or use of guns detracted from the fun for me.
OgreMonk 02-24-06, 04:39 PM	Koga just abso:censored:lutely nailed it. ...golf clap...
The_Last_Rogue 02-24-06, 05:12 PM	Hey wow this thread kind of took off; way back umpteen posts ago, I mentioned how I was thinking of putting firearms into my campaign - I definitely now intend to do so. A few questions if people wouldn't mind though - In my campaign this process of invention/engineering firearms will be driven by joint efforts of dwarf and gnome. At the time my campaign starts, this invention will be very new. I was wondering how I should as a game mechanic introduce this creation process. Any ideas on crafting weapons like this, DC's and whatnot? Thanks.
Marvos 02-25-06, 01:13 AM	My current campaign takes place in an early-Renaissance technology level. There are guns, but they are very primitive. There are "hand cannons" which are just tubes with gunpowder and a metal slug that you have to put a lit whick into to make it fire. Where firearms are really used is in the area of seige warfare. The most widespread use is in cannons. I like to keep gunpowder weapons primitive. A hand cannon should take a full-round action or two to load and get like a -2 penalty to hit. A skilled archer was much more valuable than a musketeer in the early days of firearms. By the time a musketeer gets his gun loaded, a good archer will be able to get off a half a dozen shots.
Denihilist 02-25-06, 02:34 AM	In my setting "Cyborgs & Sorcerers," I have both modern guns and regular fantasy weapons. While there are certainly rules regarding their use, they do not unduly imbalance the game. this is especially true when feats are needed to operated the more powerful weapons. Example: Warrior class wants to use a tow missile launcher he "borrowed" from a dead enemy's hoard. Fine, he just takes the Heavy Modern Weapon Feat, and now he has a missile launcher (it takes two round to reload, and doesn't pack as much wallop as a fireball, but it is heat seeking or wire guided), not a bad trade off, right? My players seem to enjoy it. Besides, the cool factor of a Mage pulling out a six shooter to unload hot lead into an unsuspecting baddie simply can't be underestimated.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-25-06, 03:01 AM	I was wondering how I should as a game mechanic introduce this creation process. Any ideas on crafting weapons like this, DC's and whatnot? Thanks. Just as the game has craft (swordsmith) and craft (bowyer), so to much you have a craft (gunsmith). Compare DCs for those needed to create Bows, x-bows and compisite bows.
raven darqhart 02-25-06, 03:10 AM	Wow, I hadn't expected any replies on this. I didn't really think it'd get much viewing either. I wasn't meaning to demand that everyone stop using guns in their games. I simply like them in my games. Although reading the replies I think I realize now why I don't like them in my fantasy settings. I was a sniper in the Army and I've fired so many rounds of so many different weapons that they're no longer fantastic to me. I find them to be useful tools, but nothing fantastic. I think I'm just one of those folks who was born a few centuries too early. I love the idea of facing your enemy with nothing but an arms reach of air between you, saluting each other and battling to the death, living or dying with honor and courage. *shrugs* I guess I've just seen enough of the **** with firearms that I don't care to be reminded of it in my time to escape reality. No hard feeling to anyone I ****** off...I wasn't trying to be a dick, but I realize I came off that way.
bakomusha 02-25-06, 03:17 AM	i draw most of my ideas about teck and fantsy from the pc game arcanum. well in my campian i tell the players before they start in my world that they can make almost anything, if they have alot of ranks in knowlege enganeering, and alot of spare funds,my two groups said no, but my world is progersive, every time a group gets whiped out, or retires, time skips ahead about 100 years for there next pcs, right now, the children of gruumish(goblins orcs,hobgoblins,evil gaints,orgers,trolls,kobalds,gnolls,trog lidites, and lizardmen) well invent gunpowder in about 20 years, and wide spread use of fire arms in about 150, the children of pelor(humans,elfs,dwarfs,half-lings,good gaints, syters, merfolk,pixies,and centaurs)will invent the steam engine in about 15, and its wide spread use in about 100. and in about 1,000 years the world will resemble our modern world. but early guns will take about a 2 full rounds to load, fireing it is a free action,but it has a 50/50 chance of missfire, is exotic, with the proficency, its still a -5 to attack rolls,and has a range of about 30 feet, but when it hits, it hits hard 3d6 for a rifle,1d8 for a pistol, 10d6 for a cannon, and 20d4 for a mortor.
ConclaveKing 02-25-06, 09:49 PM	one wordNO!!!Guns don't belong anywhere! They are for cowards and wimps! I definatly wouldn't want my fighter to use one, and I wouldn't use one myself!
CryoSilver 02-25-06, 09:53 PM	That's a nice blanket statement right there. I like guns. Maybe not in the campaign I'm DMing now, but I can see them in some settings: FR, Eberron, maybe Ravenloft? It's a situational thing, most certainly. A lot of people will say "Why have guns when there's magic?" Quite simple: most people are NOT spellcasters, and the vast majority have no access to magic at all, so they'd want something in place of it. A gun (pistol) is powerful, easy to use, easy to conceal, and a well-aimed shot will take out most low level characters. While there is a matter of flavor involved, fantasy can certainly incorporate guns as well as it can accomodate psionics. I also happens to like guns IRL, so maybe I'm biased?
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-25-06, 09:54 PM	one wordNO!!!Guns don't belong anywhere! They are for cowards and wimps! I definatly wouldn't want my fighter to use one, and I wouldn't use one myself! You never use magic do you? Or crossbows. Or Sneak attack. Just a big ol' greatsword... naked of course, because armor is for people afraid of getting stabbed.
CryoSilver 02-25-06, 09:58 PM	You never use magic do you? Or crossbows. Or Sneak attack. Just a big ol' greatsword... naked of course, because armor is for people afraid of getting stabbed. Madness Vaal. He uses his fists. With his eyes closed. Because real men don't need to see what they're hitting.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-25-06, 10:05 PM	Madness Vaal. He uses his fists. With his eyes closed. Because real men don't need to see what they're hitting. See, this is how Hercules got into trouble.