Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowDragon8685 05-06-07, 12:43 AM	Okay, some background. I play my gaming primarily over OpenRPG, and over the years, I've noticed a trend. All the actual female players seem to be absoloute bughouse psychotic, or on their way there. They do things that are either absoloutely malicious, or so seemingly illogical that I just can't get it. Let's skip the history of the others, and get down to the one I'm talking about. We're actually playing Star Wars d20 (RCR edition, for those who may be wondering if Saga edition is out yet; it ain't,) but this is a player issue more than a game issue, so I feel the best place to ask is here. Last Wednesday, we had a game culminating in a boss battle consisting of a boss who was ready to negate any grenades thrown into the room (as evidenced by the fact that our demolitions expert hurled a grenade into the room, which was promptly negated before it hit ground.) He was standing behind a forcefield which prevented blasters from hitting him, and had five fairly high-level mook guards who could out-damage our Jedi Guardian in combat. In short, this is one of those encounters you're supposed to run from, and the DM made that fairly obvious to us. So, it looks Bad, with a capital B. Us Jedi can run, but the Noble and the Scoundrel (who is being NPC'd because her character left early) don't have Jedi Speed, and thus it is unlikely they can evade, at least in my mind. Our would-be captor is a former Imperial Inquisitor, so he's quite prepared for dealing with Jedi, as are his Imperial Guards, who are weilding force pikes. So, I go for the un-Jedi soloution. I grab a thermal detonator from the scoundrel and go for a mexican standoff, ala Leia and Jabba's Throne Room. So the BBEG starts trying to use the Fore to disable the bomb, and we're basically making opposed checks. At this point, I'm trying to tell the others "This is a fight we cannot win - but there are alternatives to fighting." The Noble (the player in question) dosen't want to hear "run away", and so chooses to open fire on the BBEG, predictably doing nothing because of his powerful force-field. The guards move in and attack - one of them is dropped by the other Jedi, via a lucky critical hit, and is promptly himself dropped (to wounded, not dead) by a lucky crit from the guard who moves in to save him. At this point, they're attacking me, so I'm trying to both defend myself and prevent the bomb from being disarmed. This is definately not a fight I can fight my way out of, even with my best Force buffs up, so I try something radically risky. My character has the Sever Force power. This power costs a Force Point to activate, and lets you bestow upon the enemy a pitifully low Will Saving Throw DC, and if they fail (and are Darksided), they can't use the Force without making a DC 40 Willpower Save. (Note: All Jedi/Sith/Force-User classes, even those of fighter-type nature, have Will Save High and need a high Wisdom score - imagine trying to hit a Cleric with a Willpower-Saving Throw ability.) The willpower save DC is set by the skill check I roll - a 35-50 is worth a DC 25, and a 51+ is worth a DC 30. I roll, using ANOTHER Force Point ( a very limited resource ), adding +2d6 to my check, and roll a 1 on my original roll. So I have to try a Farseeing roll to re-roll - I ace the Farseeing roll, and re-roll the d20 for the Sever Force, and roll phenomenally well - a 15 - which combined with my natural +15 on the check and the +8 from my Force Point, gets me into the 35-50 bracket. At this point, the noble in question (the one who precipitated the firefight in which we are getting creamed) notes that Sever Force is a Full-Round Action that draws an Attack of Opportunity. (It is; I had not read this part when I quickly looked up the power to find the saving throw chart.) The DM notes that I took a five-foot step back, and seems to ignore the full-round action part. Then she further notes that since I used an FP just to activate the power, she thought you could not use two Force Points in one round. (I think she's right, on this.) But the DM overrules it, saying that it makes sense that you'd have to be able to, in order to add an FP to the roll of any power that requires an FP to use, like Sever Force. At this point, I think she's actually trying to precipitate a TPK, possibly over jealousy of the fact that Jedi are doing better in melee combat than her TWF longsword noble human replica droid. I keep this opinion to myself - the DM rolls the badguy's save, rolls low, calls upon the Dark Side and uses a Force Point to add majorly to his willpower saving throw (one reason the power Sever Force is a joke, IMO), and miraculously fails. (I think he may actually have fudged the save to fail.) Either way, it works. I cut the Inquisitor off from the Force, and he goes ballistic, ordering me killed. (At this point, the noble just said she had to go and logged off, so the DM NPC'd her for the rest of the session.) I inform him that if I die, nobody will be able to reestablish his connection to the Force (a bluff; I cannot do this, nobody can. The DM dosen't make me roll, ruling that he has no way of knowing if I'm lieing.) So he informs me knocked out, and then I inform him that if I get knocked out, the bomb will fall, and consequently kill me, thus leading back to A. So it works - I get my mexican stand-off, I heal my injured buddy. We confiscate the enemy's weapons, and everybody goes outside at bomb-point. Wherein my allies and his allies depart - us into our ship, them back into their hideout. I've told him that when we're alone, I'll fix him and depart. So, we wind up alone, and I "fix" him, from a certain point of view; I tell him that the only way to get back his connection to the Force is to restore balance and purge himself of the Dark Side. (The only way to cure Sever Force is to get rid of of your Dark Side Points.) So the bad guy has a "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" moment, the DM laughs at me and tells me I just lobotomized his BBEG for the story arc, and the DM fiat-grants us enough XP to level, whether or not we were anywhere near a level. But I'm worried about the noble's player. From my point of view, it looked like she was actively trying to get our party TPK'd. As a point of reference, about a year or so ago back, there was another female player who played Star Wars with the same DM and I. She was an absoloute psycho, turned the campaign into an angst-fest despite (or perhaps with) her excelent role-playing, and quit on an extremely wrathful note, saying very personally hurtful things about the DM and I. Since then, she has had a history of trying to "infiltrate" this DM's games and my games and ruin them through IC measures - an example being throwing a 1d4 throwing knife at a high-level NPC who had no (other) reason to attack us in a totalitarian d20 Modern game, hoping that it would get the party killed. So, I'm slightly paranoid, even though I don't really think it's the same girl, I'm worried that she's actually trying to torpedo the game. So I get on AIM and talk to her tonite, after, I think, enough time to cool down (game was on Wednesday). This is the transcript, with her name changed to protect her. TheHRDNoble signed on at 11:51:17 PM. ShadowDragon8685: Hello. TheHRDNoble: Hi ShadowDragon8685: How're you? TheHRDNoble: i think i'm a bit tipsy TheHRDNoble: i went out drinking... TheHRDNoble: how are you/ ShadowDragon8685: I'm okay. ShadowDragon8685: I just wanted to ask about wednesday - I reckon it's been long enough for any animosity to die down. TheHRDNoble: hmmmm? TheHRDNoble: i've gotten over the fact that you sort of overshadowed me TheHRDNoble: use of the force makes your character a bit more useful then mine in some cases. the games i've seen so far have been quite combat heavy so a jedi is a bit more needed than a noble for now. ShadowDragon8685: It was more like you were trying to get us all killed... TheHRDNoble: maybe there will be something i can contribute later on though. TheHRDNoble: ah TheHRDNoble: well, ive sort of decided my character will stay on ship going forward, so i doubt i'll be causing porblems anymore ShadowDragon8685: That's not what I'm talking about. TheHRDNoble: you and the soldiers are giood at the fighting thing ShadowDragon8685: Well, attacking when I was trying to bluff the enemy into letting us go was a really bad idea, but that's still not what I'm talking about. ShadowDragon8685: When you were rules-lawyering my desperate attempts to pull off an absoloute miracle and use Sever Force on the Inquisitor, you kept trying everything to sabotage my attempt. TheHRDNoble: ah, im also deficient in other areas than fighting? sorry about that TheHRDNoble: what can i do to improve/? ShadowDragon8685: Granted, I did not know the full-round action thing, that was a mistake. But in light of the circumstances, why were you bringing it up? TheHRDNoble: i thoutht it seemed a bit much, so i checked the book. it did seem a bit much. ShadowDragon8685: A ****-easy Willpower save is a bit much? ShadowDragon8685: Frankly, I think the DM fudged that roll. TheHRDNoble: i';ll keep out of that sid ef the game from now on TheHRDNoble: sorry ShadowDragon8685: I'm not asking you to keep out of the game! ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing things that, frankly, looked like you were trying to get our characters killed. TheHRDNoble: and, i said, i'm sorry for it TheHRDNoble: i tried to play my character as i though shed do things. ShadowDragon8685: You mean pre-empt a mexican standoff (with bombs) by shooting? TheHRDNoble: and, when i saw you doing stuff that seemd to be a bit outside the rules, i mentioned it i'll keep it ot myself next tume TheHRDNoble: hard to type ShadowDragon8685: That was in very poor tactical taste, but I'm talking about correcting the DM on rules mistakes he makes in our favor. TheHRDNoble: yes, i won't bring up the rules again ShadowDragon8685: *sigh* That's still not what I'm saying. ShadowDragon8685: I'm not saying "stay on the ship" or "don't bring up rules", I'm saying "why were you acting in a way seemingly at crossed purposes with the party"? TheHRDNoble: im really not sure wheat i should do. im sory i upset you . i;; fomd something else to play. sorry. ShadowDragon8685: ... ShadowDragon8685: That's not what I'm saying at all! ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing something that I found irrational and/or possibly hostile. I'm not trying to drive you off, just understand what was going on. TheHRDNoble signed off at 12:09:44 AM. And after this, she logged on again, told the DM she wanted to quit, and logged off. Frankly, I'm upset and worried. I'm upset because every time I try to ask a female player (not just this one) something that seems remotely critical, they blow it up into a huge ordeal, like I'm trying to browbeat them into leaving the game. And I'm worried because I'm wondering if she'll really want to quit after she's had some time to sleep. (In retrospect, I suppose she was probably grossly understating her level of tipsiness, and it was a bad idea to try and ask her this stuff now.)
AffableDoomwalker 05-06-07, 12:56 AM	Judging by what I've just read. You know a psycho. Methinks this falls under the "anonymity of the internet = insanity" rule. A rule that isn't specific to any particular gender. Let 'em quit the game, find a new player, and have a ball.
daggeroflath 05-06-07, 01:00 AM	All of our species acts in strange, irrational and nonsensical ways to me. Females are slightly stranger to me, but I have less experience with them so this makes sense. I know that personally, if I saw someone making a rules mistake, even one that helped the party I would point it out. Not aiming for a TPK but just to keep everything running right. Edit: Amusingly that conversation at the end sounds like one of those stereotypical "So you think I'm fat?" male-female conversations. However my honest opinion from reading that log, is that she was upset and feeling like she couldn't do anything right in the game. Her emotions were getting the best of her and she was viewing your comments through the lens of her low self-esteem as an attack against her. Don't take it personally. She was being irrational because her emotions got the best of her. It happens to all of us. I know I've posted some stupid things on these forums when I've been emotional.
Enigmous 05-06-07, 01:03 AM	So you judge all females based on two? Regardless of that, I would do the same thing (calling the rules) so that I would be able to correct the DM at a later time with out him getting mad at me. I also would have shot the guy, because I didn't read about you communicating to her your plan.
DarkRhystar 05-06-07, 01:10 AM	At this point, I think she's actually trying to precipitate a TPK, possibly over jealousy of the fact that Jedi are doing better in melee combat than her TWF longsword noble human replica droid. I keep this opinion to myself - the DM rolls the badguy's save, rolls low, calls upon the Dark Side and uses a Force Point to add majorly to his willpower saving throw (one reason the power Sever Force is a joke, IMO), and miraculously fails. (I think he may actually have fudged the save to fail.) From another perspective... This could be seen as you conveniently ignoring rules to get what you want with her just trying to avoid abusing the DM's lack of knowledge. TheHRDNoble: i think i'm a bit tipsy TheHRDNoble: i went out drinking... TheHRDNoble: maybe there will be something i can contribute later on though. TheHRDNoble: well, ive sort of decided my character will stay on ship going forward, so i doubt i'll be causing porblems anymore TheHRDNoble: ah, im also deficient in other areas than fighting? sorry about that TheHRDNoble: what can i do to improve/? TheHRDNoble: sorry TheHRDNoble: and, i said, i'm sorry for it TheHRDNoble: i tried to play my character as i though shed do things. TheHRDNoble: and, when i saw you doing stuff that seemd to be a bit outside the rules, i mentioned it i'll keep it ot myself next tume TheHRDNoble: yes, i won't bring up the rules again TheHRDNoble: im really not sure wheat i should do. im sory i upset you . i;; fomd something else to play. sorry. After reading her side of the convo, I see: 5 apologies. 2 attempts to rectify this in the future. 1 question on how to do better. 1 comment on trying to stay in character. 1 remark that she was tipsy. Honestly, aside from the last point, she seemed pretty apologetic. Seems to me she felt useless during the session, had you come at her afterwards berating her for her actions, and just wanted to get away from it. Being tipsy probably just magnified those feelings. She might not have done the group any favors, but it's not as if she didn't try to apologize and ask how to improve in between your chewing her out.
Yak of Darkness 05-06-07, 01:15 AM	All you need to answer your question is that the first option in your title is "Do I not understand females in general?" A question you're asking after having two measly gaming oddities with women. You've taken two completely random occurances, one from a girl who's not interested in playing a combat-focused game (and . . . admittedly somewhat passively . . . tried telling you this when she was explaining why she wanted to leave the game), and another from an absolute crazy person (the stalky TPK maniac), and just kinda thrown your hands in the air going, "Chicks? Whaddaya gonna do? :confused: " And you don't get to be that guy yet. You need to game with TPK Psycho, and then go on to later game with her cousin, who's only in your campaign because TPKP set her up for it, but now she realizes she kinda has a thing for you, but don't tell her boyfriend because he'll be ****** when he gets out of jail. And while you're reeling from that, the lady next door starts covering her front yard in lawn gnomes, and I mean covering. You can't see any grass out there. And when you, on a lark, try asking her about this, she cocks a quizzical look at you, furrows her brow, says, "What gnomes?" and munches on a candy bar thoughtfully. You need to have the Spring Break experience with the twins who pretend to be one girl, get you in bed, and leave you tied to the posts while they use your credit cards to buy tequila. And on the flight back from Cancun, the stewardess just looks you in the eyes and says, "I know I shouldn't tell the passengers this, but I really hope the plane'll crash today. Just kinda rooting for it." You drive home by some mad hobo woman with one leg, waving a sign in the air proclaiming the relative nigh-ness of the end who's yelling about angels, swooping down from the sky to crush pitiful humans with their AT Fields. And as you pull pass your neighbor's house, you suddenly remember that candy bar she was munching on before. Where did she get it from? She was wearing a skirt--no pockets. She just sorta reached around her back and pulled it from the air. Where the hell did it come from? Then you get to be the guy who goes, "Do I just not understand females? I mean, do I just meet all the psychos or something? Chicks, man . . . whaddaya gonna do? :confused: " Right now, you gamed with one woman who was crazy. This was because she was crazy, not because of XX chromosomes. Then you gamed with another woman who didn't mesh with your playing style, and maybe acted either a little doormatish or prickly on AIM . . . it's tough to tell tone online. She doesn't want to game with you anymore, and you probably sounded pretty creepy to her in your insistence that she stay in a game she clearly doesn't want to. At least as creepy as you thought she sounded nuts. Two chicks. Not exactly a comprehensive sample. And if you honestly think it is, then no, you do not understand females in general. :P No worries, though. No one does. They crazy. ;)
Hydryh 05-06-07, 01:18 AM	She sounds as though she was feeling overshadowed, and may have been lashing out passive-aggressively. She was tipsy, as you said, and frustrated (I'd think), and opted to back out of the game. This is not an inherent aspect of females or female gamers. However, it may be wise to keep in mind that RPGs have across the board been potrayed as "guy stuff," and so a lot of female gamers that I know tend to be a bit... cautious when selecting groups and/or games. So, generally I'd say just try not to be too rough, but in this case I don't think you were, and that this individual gamer was not willing to deal with the game/party as it stood.
Nathreet 05-06-07, 01:28 AM	What do I do if I know a girl like this in person then?? Wait a second... low self-esteem, presuming everything is a personal attack. I think I'm seeing a connection between this girl, the girl I know, and some others (male and female). Not to mention their tendancy to make actual personal attacks against eachother over any tiny thing. Doood, do not underestimate elementary school's "Project self-esteem." Man, that was one of those light-bulb moments. Still, what's the solution? If you speak well about them and try to make them feel better about themselves, they don't believe you. Then their complaints about their own faults become a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you confront them, they react like this girl. And to the person who said she apologized and claimed she would try to fix it. No, no she didn't. That was the whole point. She apologized for something completely different and offered to fix that. The poster got frustrated trying to tell her that wasn't what he was talking about. Going back to low self-esteem and similar people I've known, these people tend to make up their own faults and bash themselves with them. They don't seem to understand, "You can do this and things will be better." They see it as an inescapable situation and they see never-ending apologies as the norm. They're in their own little world of, "This (not something else) is what I'm doing wrong and I've been trying forever to do better (and never will entirely, kinda like a self-perceieved alcoholic or smoker who can't quit)." Then they get mad when you expect actual change, not their apologies and attempts to fix something entirely different (something else that's only in their heads). Oh, and I don't think she was trying to ruin the game. I think she just has a negative outlook.
Heahengel 05-06-07, 01:29 AM	Honestly, it looks to me like you screwed up. I've been in that situation before where I know the rules contradict something the party is trying to do for its survival, and I know that if is the other way around, I am going to comment. So I speak up. Unless the original gameplay made it really obvious that she was trying to ruin the game, I wouldn't have jumped to that or been so accusatory. She may not have realized she was being counterproductive with the attack, and may have felt honorbound with the rules thing. It just sounds like you chased a player off.
ArcTan 05-06-07, 01:58 AM	1) I don't see anything wrong with asking for rules clarifications on things that might benefit the party if ruled wrong. I like consistency in the rules. I don't see encounters as games to be won by the PCs by trying to get around the DM. If the DM rules poorly in our favor today he might rule poorly against us tomorrow -- it *is* important to rule things fairly, I think, and I'm not so invested in my imaginary character in an imaginary situation that I won't chip in about things I think are going wrong. 2) Yeah, making a poor tactical decision because of roleplaying happens. A lot. To newbies especially, because d20 does a bad job of telling you how you're supposed to balance in-character with out-of-character motivations. The game can be *confusing* if you're not used to how things go. 3) It's not actually unjustified for her to be upset about you upstaging her a lot. The main reason to care about game balance is that the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, and the poor guy who picks the "wrong" class or race shouldn't have to stand around feeling useless as a result. A TPK doesn't actually have to be the end of a game, after all, and ultimately isn't that big a deal in the big scheme of things. It might *be* logical to care more about the fact that the GM might be misinterpreting rules in order to favor one kind of character, because that's a problem that might still be with you long after the current encounter or current campaign is over. 4) It's actually kind of tremendously sexist to start making assumptions about "female players" after having played with two females. Especially since in a genre that's not exactly female-friendly, females are more likely to simply be new players and to feel nervous and unwelcome about the games they're in. Judging by her profuse apologies and extremely upset emotional state, she was probably somewhere in that place, and you didn't help by deciding to be pushy and judgmental and really way too invested in a damn game when confronting her about it.
ShadowDragon8685 05-06-07, 02:15 AM	Oi. First off, everybody who's jumping me about basing my opinions on two females, I've only given you the most recent example, and the most psychotic example, who, with my passing grade in psychology, I can say with about a 56% chance of feeling correct may be clinically psychotic. It's been more about 8, and please note the subset of females I was discussing: Female players who frequent OpenRPG. And everybody who's approaching this from a "new girl, shyly approaching a male-oriented hobby in an unfamilar hobby", drop it. This person is possibly more of a tabletop RPG gamer than I am, and she knows Star Wars well. This isen't a case of a newbie in an unfamilar environment. Ironically, I think both of the females I mentioned may know Star Wars better than I do, and I often correct the DM on issues of canonicity. I wasen't trying to "jump her case", either. If I came across that way... Well, that's my screwup, and perpetually so. >_< I was just trying to divine what she was thinking, whether she felt some need to be rules-correct all the time, or if she was just trying to take me down a peg or two. And I'm fairly sure her character is a better melee combatant than mine, so if she's feeling underwhelmed by Jedi, she probably should have (pick) played one/played a Soldier/realized that she was a better melee fighter than one out of two Jedi, and did that with a suboptimal class choice (Noble). Still, that annoys me. My character uses the Force - I took Skill Focus in the three Force-using skills (variant, only three skills). I ought to be damned good at using the Force. She owns a Corellion Corvette, an honest-to-anything Warship, and is playing a Noble, which means there's no such thing as Wealth by Level for her, since her wealth is a function of charisma/market-use skill per day. She can literally become more wealthy by waiting 24 hours and making a stack of credits, literally out of thin air, as a class feature. So I don't know why she's feeling underwhelmed. She could buy a droid army by flying away for a month. I'm just frustrated by this whole situation. This was, fairly clearly I think, a "run or die" set-up by the DM, and she choose "die". And when I tried to get the party out of it without abandoning her to her fate, she seemed to try to sabotage my every effort.
KillerGM 05-06-07, 02:22 AM	Judging by what I've just read. You know a psycho. Methinks this falls under the "anonymity of the internet = insanity" rule. A rule that isn't specific to any particular gender. Let 'em quit the game, find a new player, and have a ball. QFT I think it says a lot that you assume, at least enough to question, that the problems that you've had dealing with female gamers are because they're women. That may be your biggest stumbling block in the whole thing. Haven't you ever had problems with male gamers?
Silverthumb128 05-06-07, 02:22 AM	Seems to me she felt useless during the session, had you come at her afterwards berating her for her actions, and just wanted to get away from it. Being tipsy probably just magnified those feelings. She might not have done the group any favors, but it's not as if she didn't try to apologize and ask how to improve in between your chewing her out. That sounds about right. Honestly, who hasn't played with a Cleric/Druid, and just found themselves bored because the other player is doing everything? Its no big deal, and she sounds like she was just trying to keep things as fair as possible. Plus, if a PC decides that they want to stay and fight while the rest of the party runs, well, I'm sure she knew what she was getting into. Its just roleplaying, and likely, from that little bit, her character was very headstrong, probably a bit too bold for her own good. Not uncommon.
Shadowhowler 05-06-07, 02:42 AM	Wow, quite the rant! :eek: My own experince with female gamers has been DRASTICLY differant. I've found female gamers to be more intrested in roleplay and less intrested in numbers and min maxing then male gamers. I've also found them to have a better sense of in game/out of game then a lot of guys. However, most of them have been less intrested in learning the rules overly much then their male counterparts. Quite a differant experince then yours...
Tytalus 05-06-07, 03:14 AM	I don't see the problem. If anything, I think you acted like a jerk. If you are trying to do something you can't, it's only fair to point it out. If the DM chooses to overrule due to awesomeness, that's fine of course, but at least it's not like cheating. How's pointing out a rule "psychotic"? You're blowing thing completely out of proportion and take a very confrontational stance in the AIM talk. She tried to apologize many times, asked for ways to better herself, and you ignore it all. Also, it's highly questionable of you to force this confrontation on her (she obviously wasn't comfortable with it) while she's tipsy.
draco1119 05-06-07, 04:30 AM	I don't see the problem. If anything, I think you acted like a jerk. If you are trying to do something you can't, it's only fair to point it out. If the DM chooses to overrule due to awesomeness, that's fine of course, but at least it's not like cheating. How's pointing out a rule "psychotic"? You're blowing thing completely out of proportion and take a very confrontational stance in the AIM talk. She tried to apologize many times, asked for ways to better herself, and you ignore it all. Also, it's highly questionable of you to force this confrontation on her (she obviously wasn't comfortable with it) while she's tipsy. QFMFT No offense, SD, but int his particular case, I'm going to have to say that you were the one in the wrong. I aeriously doubt it was your intention, but you seemed to come across as a little overbearing in your AIM convo, and people just aren't themselves when buzzed. Chalk this one up as a lesson learned: don't berate people when they're under the influence. Most of us can't handle it.
ranewen 05-06-07, 01:42 PM	Wow, quite the rant! :eek: My own experince with female gamers has been DRASTICLY differant. I've founf female gamers to be more intrested in roleplay and less intrested in numbers and min maxing then male gamers. I've also found them to have a better sense of in game/out of game then a lot of guys. However, most of them have been less intrested in learning the rules overly much then their male counterparts. Quite a differant experince then yours... hehe.. in a group i was formlerly in (and i am a female gamer).. it was a guy who was the rules lawyer, could recite books from memory, or could tell you what page number side of page, and paragraph it was in. me? i was the one when we were running out of grid space, they (all guys) were like "ok let's clear off the entire board and start from this side" and i brought up the fact to only wipe away one panel, and move it over, slide the first panel to teh other side, and continue on. i was also the one that when we killed orcs and i (being just rescued from a dungeon, that i was nearly out of myself anyway) but without any armor. i had to put on the armor just worn by orcs. my response? "but that just came off an orc, gross" i've found that many female gamers place a far different perspective on teh game in general. there are of course rotten apples out there, but the same can be said about males.
danielinthewolvesden 05-06-07, 02:27 PM	Okay, some background. I play my gaming primarily over OpenRPG, and over the years, I've noticed a trend. All the actual female players seem to be absoloute bughouse psychotic, or on their way there. ) How do you know they are "actual female players"? I think you do not know who is a "female" on OpenRPG. Males who pretend to be female for gaming purposes might not be all that stable. Not males who play female characters, Males who lie about what sex they are. After reading what you posted, I think TheHRDNoble is a male. And TheHRDNoblewas right in correcting your errors, even tho they were against the party. Look, friend, I am like twice your age, with a LOT more experience with women, and I have barely begun to understand them.;) But in general, REAL female gamers act better than males. Very rarely are they rule-lawyers, disruptive PC's (in-party theives, PKers, etc) or munchkins. Yes, I do know a few that get very heavy into RPing, so that is likely the only "problem" with female gamers that is at all common. So- 90% less likely to be rules-lawyers, Munchkins or disruptive, 50% more likely to be heavy into RPing. Never met any who were "absoloute bughouse psychotic", in over 30 years of gaming.
PwnageLlama 05-06-07, 02:43 PM	This has nothing to do with gender. Seems like she tried to apoligise for her actions. From her point of view, she apologises, but you continue to attack her. I would call it a misunderstanding.
weepingminotaur 05-06-07, 02:59 PM	To add to the chorus, this has nothing to do with gender. It's always dangerous to postulate sweeping generalisations about large groups of people based on a handful of personal encounters. For example, the female gamers I've played with have been absolutely topnotch: respectful, team-oriented, non-munchkin, not histrionic or self-centred, sensitive to the emotional tenor of the group, engaged with their characters but not obsessed, willing to accept criticism. Between you and me, ShadowDragon, how do we adjudicate our differing experiences? It seems like any grand theory you or I construct can't stand up to the other person's experience. My opinion is that it's best to just react to what happens, rather than using events as the basis for a whole-sale generalisation about female gamers in a certain format.
Thiez 05-06-07, 03:01 PM	It seems you are the psycho here. I would most certainly point it out if somebody was breaking the rules, even if this would lead to a TPK (And to think some guy called me chaotic some time ago :confused:). Obviously this is not your style, and you like to break the rules if doing so serves your purpose. Fine, we're all different. But why can't you just leave it at that? Why do you have to keep asking her, over and over again? Get over it.
WHW4 05-06-07, 03:11 PM	Wow. So the OP was willing to let the DM make rules mistakes that benefit the party, while conceivably correcting ones that benefit the DM's forces? A fellow player called the OP on, happened to be female, rather than engage in a debate left, and is called psycho? Apparently my all-male group should be classified as psychos as well then, because when people try to break the rules, even the DM, we freaking call them on it. If you can't even decide, as a group, what rules stick and what are thrown out... how the heck do you even form basic assumptions on game-mechanics. Case and point. A female player, playing a bow-wielding ranger, was backed up against a wall by a street thug. Having nowhere to go, she attempted to use her arrow as a weapon, something that is clearly detailed in the PHB. She would be taking penalties, low damage potential, etc... but in that situation that is what the character would have done, there was a mechanic in place for it and what happened? Quote the DM, "This isn't hollywood, and you're not Legolas. An arrow is't made for that" Huh? Eh? Pardon me, but didn't that other guy just lob a friggin' fireball? No one else had the gumption to question "rule 0" so I looked the mechanic up, showed the DM, and he still ruled against it. For the sake of moving on, we dropped it, but not before I made clear that if we, as players, could not rely on the PHB for options and rules clarifications, why should we even have the blasted things. I think I also threw a "that's real lame, dude" in there for good measure. Point is, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I get this image in my mind, while reading your post, of you declaring your double force-point use then cutting your eyes to see if you got away with it. Probably not the way it went down, but that's the image I got anyhow. She had the audacity to try to make you play by the rules, and got berated for it. In conclusion, no - female gamers are not all psycho. Some gamers, reguardless of gender, will try to cheat when it helps them or the group out, and berate those who catch them. That's the lesson I learned from your post.
docballen 05-06-07, 03:50 PM	Hi! I'm a female gamer and I'd like to make a few comments about this post. I don't understand why I have done some things in life, or in games, before. There are old men, wise men, sages, and clergy working on "why do women do the things they do?" question-- have been since mankind first evolved-- and there has never been an answer. We can't always answer it either. "It just seemed the right thing to do" is usually as close as I can get. But now, to the post at hand... . So I get on AIM and talk to her tonite, after, I think, enough time to cool down (game was on Wednesday). You've already said you don't know females. Ten years may not have been long enough. TheHRDNoble signed on at 11:51:17 PM. ShadowDragon8685: Hello. TheHRDNoble: Hi ShadowDragon8685: How're you? TheHRDNoble: i think i'm a bit tipsy TheHRDNoble: i went out drinking... Okay... so now she's drunk and on AIM. Red lights, sirens, warning buoys right here. Have you ever tried to have a face-to-face talk with a drunk??? It speaks volumes about you that you tried to do anything here other than see how she was. TheHRDNoble: how are you/ ShadowDragon8685: I'm okay. ShadowDragon8685: I just wanted to ask about wednesday - I reckon it's been long enough for any animosity to die down. TheHRDNoble: hmmmm? TheHRDNoble: i've gotten over the fact that you sort of overshadowed me TheHRDNoble: use of the force makes your character a bit more useful then mine in some cases. the games i've seen so far have been quite combat heavy so a jedi is a bit more needed than a noble for now. she's being honest here... through the drunken stupor. She feels she picked the wrong kind of character, and the "I've gotten over the fact that you sort of overshadowed me"-- it's pretty obvious that she felt useless during this session. ShadowDragon8685: It was more like you were trying to get us all killed... This is very confrontational sounding. I didn't see a "lol" or "grins" to put a less- confrontational spin on it. And it might have made her defensive-- "not only did I not get to play my character like I wanted but this guy is nagging me about the few things I DID do." TheHRDNoble: maybe there will be something i can contribute later on though. TheHRDNoble: ah TheHRDNoble: well, ive sort of decided my character will stay on ship going forward, so i doubt i'll be causing porblems anymore I think you should have let it drop right here. Later, in game play, you could have asked her character to come help your team... or whatever. You never said anything to this inebriant to do anything other than hurt her feelings or make her angry. Like: ShadowDragon8685: That's not what I'm talking about. TheHRDNoble: you and the soldiers are giood at the fighting thing ShadowDragon8685: Well, attacking when I was trying to bluff the enemy into letting us go was a really bad idea, but that's still not what I'm talking about. Again, she's telling you that she feels she created an inefficient character. ShadowDragon8685: When you were rules-lawyering my desperate attempts to pull off an absoloute miracle and use Sever Force on the Inquisitor, you kept trying everything to sabotage my attempt. How was she supposed to know what your plans were??? I desperately despise being called a rules lawyer-- I'm in the process of learning the rules to the system my crew and I are playing, and sometimes I need clarification on how a rule is to be played, especially when our DM didn't give us a list of the house rules. One of my fellow players accused me of being a rules-lawyer because he likes to disregard the rules. So she might feel the same way. TheHRDNoble: ah, im also deficient in other areas than fighting? sorry about that TheHRDNoble: what can i do to improve/? ShadowDragon8685: Granted, I did not know the full-round action thing, that was a mistake. But in light of the circumstances, why were you bringing it up? TheHRDNoble: i thoutht it seemed a bit much, so i checked the book. it did seem a bit much. ShadowDragon8685: A ****-easy Willpower save is a bit much? ShadowDragon8685: Frankly, I think the DM fudged that roll. TheHRDNoble: i';ll keep out of that sid ef the game from now on TheHRDNoble: sorry ShadowDragon8685: I'm not asking you to keep out of the game! ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing things that, frankly, looked like you were trying to get our characters killed. TheHRDNoble: and, i said, i'm sorry for it TheHRDNoble: i tried to play my character as i though shed do things. And that is the answer. As good as you will ever get. That should be enough. If it isn't, well... Besides, she said she'd keep out of "that side" of the game... as in, she won't question the rules anymore. (You may need to re-read what you wrote here.) ShadowDragon8685: You mean pre-empt a mexican standoff (with bombs) by shooting? TheHRDNoble: and, when i saw you doing stuff that seemd to be a bit outside the rules, i mentioned it i'll keep it ot myself next tume TheHRDNoble: hard to type You are having an ethical debate with someone who is sooooo drunk thay are having trouble typing. I think you were just in this argument to win, not to get any answers or to get your point across. Picking a "lesser" or "impaired" opponent isn't necessarily honorable-- I, again, would have waited and spoke to her at a later time when she was sober and maybe could understand what you were asking her, and could answer you in a way that you want. IMO, But, instead, you keep beating this dead horse; ShadowDragon8685: That was in very poor tactical taste, but I'm talking about correcting the DM on rules mistakes he makes in our favor. TheHRDNoble: yes, i won't bring up the rules again ShadowDragon8685: *sigh* That's still not what I'm saying. Yes , it is. re read what she said, and then what you answered. You chastised her for a rules question... which shouldn't matter if it is for your side or against... unless the rules errors should only benefit you. And "fair and balanced" usually forbids that. ShadowDragon8685: I'm not saying "stay on the ship" or "don't bring up rules", I'm saying "why were you acting in a way seemingly at crossed purposes with the party"? How many times have you asked this question now and not received the answer you want??? TheHRDNoble: im really not sure wheat i should do. im sory i upset you . i;; fomd something else to play. sorry. ShadowDragon8685: ... ShadowDragon8685: That's not what I'm saying at all! ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing something that I found irrational and/or possibly hostile. I'm not trying to drive you off, just understand what was going on. TheHRDNoble signed off at 12:09:44 AM. And after this, she logged on again, told the DM she wanted to quit, and logged off. And you were surprised that this happened? If I were there I would have high-fived you on the spot!!! Way to go-- you got what you truly wanted, which was to aggravate her unti she quit the game!!! Frankly, I'm upset and worried. I'm upset because every time I try to ask a female player (not just this one) something that seems remotely critical, they blow it up into a huge ordeal, like I'm trying to browbeat them into leaving the game. Perhaps I have illuminated this process a little bit. That's exactly what it sounded like you were trying to do. Now, you may like to have conversations with drunks, but I don't. I would have waited, and used some humor, and maybe even let her know that you're trying to work with her to make her game better. Was that ever said??? Noooooooooo. And I'm worried because I'm wondering if she'll really want to quit after she's had some time to sleep. Well, it sure sounds like your plan may have failed. She may get sober and realise what you were trying to do, and come back to the game. "Curses, foiled again-- by a damn female!!!":D (In retrospect, I suppose she was probably grossly understating her level of tipsiness, and it was a bad idea to try and ask her this stuff now.)
Count_Chumleigh 05-06-07, 03:53 PM	I know it's something of a custom on these boards, but the fact that ShadowDragon is refering to all the women he's gamed with as "females" does not make him look any more sympathetic. Nor does the fact that he continued to berate the woman in question for feeling useless in-character and pointing out that he was technically violating the rules as written, even after she repeatedly apologized and even asked how she could improve her style of playing. Nor does the fact that his post that is supposedly a "psychotic female gamer" is mostly about what his character did, and his reasons behind it. Nor does, well, anything, really. Sorry, ShadowDragon, but you're the one who comes off as the psycho here. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
KillerGM 05-06-07, 04:44 PM	I know it's something of a custom on these boards, but the fact that ShadowDragon is refering to all the women he's gamed with as "females" does not make him look any more sympathetic. Oh I agree. It's a pet peeve of mine to use the word "female" as a noun. It always sounds like a nature show, and doesn't denote the respect that some people think it does. It reminds me of that Farscape episode: "Is that your female?" Women, girls, even chicks, I'm ok with. Females just grates on me. And docballen's post, minus the generalities about women, are pretty on. Sorry, ShadowDragon8685, you'd have come across as a jerk even if you were talking to a guy.
FeceMan 05-06-07, 07:36 PM	She might be retarded.
ranewen 05-06-07, 07:59 PM	To add to the chorus, this has nothing to do with gender. something else that comes to mind.. is when i was a regular in this one chat room, i came in one day, and met another one of the regulars that wasn't on as often. in passing, i said i was from texas. he let out a splurge of words so vulgar, and insulting, attacking me as a person.. someone he'd met only a few minutes prior, and prior to learning i was from texas, everything was okay why the change and sudden hostility? well it seems when he was in the military service, there were 3 men in his unit that were rude, and (you're prolly guessing now) they were from texas. so b/c of those 3 ppl, all 25 million +, yes MILLIONS of us, are nothing but worthless *insert sting of expletives* the point i'm trying to make is, just b/c someone fits into one demographic, does not mean that everyone in that demographic are all exactly alike.
Ack 05-06-07, 08:49 PM	Okay, as for the original incident; You got off lucky. I've had male players (and I can think of two individuals off the top of my head) who would have done that, and worse. (Some people have a hard time standing back and letting someone else do all the work...) You got off lucky (part II). The GM was obviously going with "this is a cool way to save the party" and was going to let you off the rules breakage. The fact that she pointed them out? Not her fault! They are the RULES, man. Getting out of an encounter like that by cheating totally nullifies bragging rights; you realise this, right? And in the AIM conversation, you blew it. Totally. Utterly. I can't say it more plainly than that. So no, she's not a psycho. Her gameplay technique needs work, probably. Her standoff tactics need a little polishing. But I'd point out when the PCs are breaking the rules in such a case - because if you don't, then the GM is entirely within his rights to apply the same standards to his NPCs at a later date. Of course, she'll never learn better if someone gets on to her when she's had a few and harshes her into leaving the game altogether... Now, I roleplay tabletop with several entirely charming young ladies (all of whom are at least 10 years younger than me) and while one is playing CN with entirely frightening gusto, they are all friendly and easy to get along with. Of course, one of them draws pictures (during game play) of goblins being tortured by cyborg bunnies...:twitch: but she's still quite a nice person. :D
weepingminotaur 05-06-07, 09:20 PM	something else that comes to mind.. is when i was a regular in this one chat room, i came in one day, and met another one of the regulars that wasn't on as often. in passing, i said i was from texas. he let out a splurge of words so vulgar, and insulting, attacking me as a person.. someone he'd met only a few minutes prior, and prior to learning i was from texas, everything was okay why the change and sudden hostility? well it seems when he was in the military service, there were 3 men in his unit that were rude, and (you're prolly guessing now) they were from texas. so b/c of those 3 ppl, all 25 million +, yes MILLIONS of us, are nothing but worthless *insert sting of expletives* the point i'm trying to make is, just b/c someone fits into one demographic, does not mean that everyone in that demographic are all exactly alike. Absolutely. Funny story: I insulted a Texan earlier today on another message board, directly making use of the fact that he was from Texas. :D But it was only to stir him up. I don't actually harbour any ill-will towards Texans. I only said it because he had used a homophobic slur and I wanted to fight fire with fire. :) But that's quite a story of yours. And yeah, it sucks that based on his previous experience with a whole THREE other people from Texas, he's now ready to condemn an entire state's population out of hand.
Stormbrand 05-06-07, 10:34 PM	Are email addresses/PMs possible on Open RPG? If so, send a quick one titled 'sorry' - not that what you did was wrong or nasty (although I think you pushed to hard), simply to make her feel better and tell her that you never intended to upset her. Use lots of friendly emoticons. Suggest something about the characters going over tactics in game if that would help. She was tipsy and melancholy. Tell the DM of your mistake (take 'blame' - since what you did was not 'wrong'), if you can, convince the DM to email/PM her saying she is welcome back if she so wishes. And do it for no other reason that to be nice.
Starchaserva 05-06-07, 10:34 PM	I think it stands to be said that the female you were dealing with was pyscho, at least a little bit, but no worse than many other male and female ones out there. I've found that girls are generally more dramatic than guys, and so, naturally, this would eventually apply to D&D. It can go well, when they apply it to roleplaying, but it can go bad when they take things out of context and make big deals about it (I've seen guys do it too, though) I once had a female player storm out of a game because myself and the other female player refused to defer to her directions. She was really arrogant, thought she was smart, and during one game, she came up with this "brilliant" plan for the group to follow, the rest of the players decided that it was not a good idea, shot it down, and proceeded with another plan that worked perfectly. She complained to the DM, who agreed with us, and so, for the rest of the game, she never spoke, barely paid attention, and when it was over, stormed out without saying a word. Similiar things would happen ever other session. That's just one example, and the other female gamer was perfectly normal, at least, as normal as any of us are
ShadowDragon8685 05-06-07, 10:44 PM	Oi. Everyone assuming that her character is useless and consequently worse than mine, and this is giving her a hard time... Reality check here. She pulled off a nigh-impossible Pilot roll to de-orbit on the Star Wars equavilent of a Switchblade glider, with another character strapped to her chest, and not only that, but she managed to land on the roof in question. Then she proceeded to, completely solo, because by this point the other character's player had left, Splinter-Cell her way into the building, stunning guards quietly, hacking the security systems and shutting them down. On her own. Oh, and in order to do this, she browbeat my character's strong objecting to splitting the party for about ten minutes, in-character, until I gave up and let her dictate the tactics of the mission. All in all, she totaled about five more neutralizations than the Jedi characters who went in the front door. Combined. So if you're feeling sympathetic-like on account of her obviously having made an ineffective combat character, think again. She's basically gotten everything she's wanted during this game - I want to play a Human Replica Droid, fine. I want to own a spaceship, fine. I want to own a 150-meter warship capable of laying waste to most civilian craft and outrunning most heavier ships, fine. Despite the fact it costs several million credits, fine. I want to decide how the mission is going to go down, despite being effectively a hired chaufer for the Jedi, fine. I want to go Solid Snake on the rooftop while you guys go in the front door, despite the fact that splitting the party is a bad idea, fine. Then it's "I want to throw a temper tantrum and get you two into trouble because you didn't radio me on the commlink and tell me you found out the BBEG was on the third floor". Even after it was pointed out that my character had no commlink to begin with, and the other guy had thrown his commlink away to prevent the signal from being tracked to him, she still threw a temper tantrum. And I'll note that I was not trying to cheat. I didn't read the rules hard, granted, but I wasen't trying to cheat. We're playing over OpenRPG, and I know how the program works. If I wanted to, I could make every roll I make a natural 20, or a 19 or an 18 or a 20, or whatever I felt like. So, no. It's not about cheating. It's about trying something, anything, to get out of a firefight we were designed to run away from, because it was designed to curb-stomp us if we stayed and fought it. And I use the word "Female" because, thanks to the wonders of internet play, you can't tell how someone sounds. So you don't know if "girl" or "woman" is appropriate, or even if the person in question is a woman or not! And no. I had no way of knowing if "a bit tipsy" meant "absoloutely freaking wasted" or not. I've never seen this person - or any of the other players - face-to-face. So I assumed "tipsy" meant "tipsy", as in "the point where reflexes are impaired but judgement is not", not "tipsy" as in "stone drunk off my ass and trying to play it cool like I'm not a quarter as drunk as I am."
FeceMan 05-06-07, 10:58 PM	She might be retarded. ._.
DarkRhystar 05-06-07, 10:58 PM	She's basically gotten everything she's wanted during this game - I want to play a Human Replica Droid, fine. I want to own a spaceship, fine. I want to own a 150-meter warship capable of laying waste to most civilian craft and outrunning most heavier ships, fine. Despite the fact it costs several million credits, fine. I want to decide how the mission is going to go down, despite being effectively a hired chaufer for the Jedi, fine. I want to go Solid Snake on the rooftop while you guys go in the front door, despite the fact that splitting the party is a bad idea, fine. Jealousy? In any case, it's hard to get a "complete story" from one person. Please do not be offended if I assume you're just a tad biased in favor of yourself. :) And no. I had no way of knowing if "a bit tipsy" meant "absoloutely freaking wasted" or not. I've never seen this person - or any of the other players - face-to-face. So I assumed "tipsy" meant "tipsy", as in "the point where reflexes are impaired but judgement is not", not "tipsy" as in "stone drunk off my ass and trying to play it cool like I'm not a quarter as drunk as I am." Whether she's only tipsy or completely trashed, it's never a good idea to try to hold a meaningful conversation. Always best to wait until later, doubly-so if you're berating someone. Inebriated folks don't take that too kindly. As a side note: TheHRDNoble: i think i'm a bit tipsy TheHRDNoble: i went out drinking... <...> TheHRDNoble: hard to type These are all warning bells to say that maybe you should talk later. You ignored them.
Ack 05-06-07, 11:29 PM	If you're a relatively new player (and okay, the GM seems to be giving her a very free rein) and you get a lot of success quickly, then you hit a situation when your usual tactics aren't going to work - sometimes it takes a little time for this to sink in. Even with non-psychos. It's the "It worked before..." syndrome all over again. And if she didn't get the point of what you were trying, or didn't understand the sheer power of the BBEG (or both) then shooting may have seemed to be a perfectly viable option. In short, if you don't know the mechanics of the system (what I call the 'artifacts'; the bits and pieces that make up useful tactics in one system and yet utterly suck in another) then what seems at face value to be a good idea might just blow chunks in-game. To explain the above paragraph: in d20 Modern, it is a viable option to charge a character who is holding a 7.62mm assault rifle pointed at you, from 60 feet away. He's only going to hit you with one bullet no matter whether he uses single shot or autofire. If he uses Burst Fire he might hit you with one-and-a-half bullets. You will lose, on average, 11 to 16 hit points. If you have more than that in hp (say, 4th level and higher), you're going to get to him and then probably pummel him mercilessly because he can't shoot you again without provoking an attack of opportunity. Now, in real life, someone who tried a stunt that stupid would die. With several large holes in him. In GURPS, this is upheld; someone charging at an alert gunman would have to cover 20 yards; in that time (probably three to four seconds) he would come under concentrated fire from that gun, and probably be hit by at least half a dozen to a dozen rounds. Each of these would do in the region of 7d6 damage; that's about 24 points each. The average character in GURPS has 10 hp. You would die. On the other hand, GURPS has its own artifacts that allow you to construct useful tactics and capabilities within the system. These fall down miserably when you try to convert them to d20 Modern ... so it goes. Artifacts are a product of the ruleset, and only occasionally have anything to do with reality. But try to tell their proponents that... :D And to get back to my point - if the player doesn't know how the artifacts work, then a good idea (in this ruleset) might look stupid in Real Life, and what would be a good idea in real life might simply not be supported by the ruleset. If she's that damn useful as a character, then it's your job, as the player, to talk her around with a few subtle hints as to how she could lift her game. When she's receptive, not when she's drunk.
danielinthewolvesden 05-07-07, 12:58 AM	Again I ask- how do you know this person is really female?:confused:
Ack 05-07-07, 01:09 AM	Does it matter?
trapspringer 05-07-07, 01:23 AM	I posted this in bandchick's thread momentarily before pulling it because it didn't really pretain directly to the topic, but my experience has been that women who play D&D are absolutely bat-**** ****ing crazy. I dunno' why. They just are. Makes it hard to meet chicks with whom I have a common interest, 'cuz it seems like girls into martial arts also share psycho-syndrome. And psyhc majors? Holy ****, you don't even know. But then maybe it's like that thing where girls say they can only meet *******s. It's technically impossible for a single person to ever say anything else becuase were she to find a guy who wasn't a loser or an ******* she would still be with him, right? Or maybe I (we/you/men) just bring out the worst in them (gamers/martial artists/psych majors/women). Anyway, SD8685; Sympathy.
docballen 05-07-07, 02:28 AM	I posted this in bandchick's thread momentarily before pulling it because it didn't really pretain directly to the topic, but my experience has been that women who play D&D are absolutely bat-**** ****ing crazy. I dunno' why. They just are. Makes it hard to meet chicks with whom I have a common interest, 'cuz it seems like girls into martial arts also share psycho-syndrome. And psyhc majors? Holy ****, you don't even know. Or maybe I (we/you/men) just bring out the worst in them (gamers/martial artists/psych majors/women). Anyway, SD8685; Sympathy. Oh, man, you are sooooooo sexy here!!!! OK I'm being sarcastic here. I was painting with broad strokes in my post earlier, and that was probably the wrong thing to do. I don't know if any of you have played older versions of D&D but they used to have this concept called "guild-speak" where you could learn an alignment language or a guild language that only members of that alignment or guild could speak. (Thieves spoke a different secret language; wizards spoke a different language... etc.) Men and women speak different guild-speak. Many stand-up comedians make their living solely on highlighting these differences. I could go through several different routines (not as well as the comedians do...) I think it would prove my point. I do things differently than my husband does, but usually we are both right (or, on instances, both wrong). For example; Girls don't light their farts. Men don't shave their eyebrows off just to draw them back on. (Now, my husband has never lit his farts. And I still have my natural eyebrows, no pencil added.) Just two generalizations to show some. I have been told that I'm not typical for my gender-- I've tried to take that as a compliment.
Stormbrand 05-07-07, 02:45 AM	Oi. Everyone assuming that her character is useless and consequently worse than mine, and this is giving her a hard time... Reality check here. She pulled off a nigh-impossible Pilot roll to de-orbit on the Star Wars equavilent of a Switchblade glider, with another character strapped to her chest, and not only that, but she managed to land on the roof in question. Then she proceeded to, completely solo, because by this point the other character's player had left, Splinter-Cell her way into the building, stunning guards quietly, hacking the security systems and shutting them down. On her own. Oh, and in order to do this, she browbeat my character's strong objecting to splitting the party for about ten minutes, in-character, until I gave up and let her dictate the tactics of the mission. All in all, she totaled about five more neutralizations than the Jedi characters who went in the front door. Combined. So if you're feeling sympathetic-like on account of her obviously having made an ineffective combat character, think again. She's basically gotten everything she's wanted during this game - I want to play a Human Replica Droid, fine. I want to own a spaceship, fine. I want to own a 150-meter warship capable of laying waste to most civilian craft and outrunning most heavier ships, fine. Despite the fact it costs several million credits, fine. I want to decide how the mission is going to go down, despite being effectively a hired chaufer for the Jedi, fine. I want to go Solid Snake on the rooftop while you guys go in the front door, despite the fact that splitting the party is a bad idea, fine. Then it's "I want to throw a temper tantrum and get you two into trouble because you didn't radio me on the commlink and tell me you found out the BBEG was on the third floor". Even after it was pointed out that my character had no commlink to begin with, and the other guy had thrown his commlink away to prevent the signal from being tracked to him, she still threw a temper tantrum. And I'll note that I was not trying to cheat. I didn't read the rules hard, granted, but I wasen't trying to cheat. We're playing over OpenRPG, and I know how the program works. If I wanted to, I could make every roll I make a natural 20, or a 19 or an 18 or a 20, or whatever I felt like. So, no. It's not about cheating. It's about trying something, anything, to get out of a firefight we were designed to run away from, because it was designed to curb-stomp us if we stayed and fought it. And I use the word "Female" because, thanks to the wonders of internet play, you can't tell how someone sounds. So you don't know if "girl" or "woman" is appropriate, or even if the person in question is a woman or not! And no. I had no way of knowing if "a bit tipsy" meant "absoloutely freaking wasted" or not. I've never seen this person - or any of the other players - face-to-face. So I assumed "tipsy" meant "tipsy", as in "the point where reflexes are impaired but judgement is not", not "tipsy" as in "stone drunk off my ass and trying to play it cool like I'm not a quarter as drunk as I am." An overreaction don't you think? If she has really been this poorly behaved (which I doubt) and cause for concern, then enjoy the fact that she is gone and play the game more smoothly. If she is not such a problem player (which her apologetic manner in the Chat sample implies), then you have been given advice which may be worth commenting on, using, or rejecting. What is your objective to this thread? Answers? Advice? Setting events right? What is it that you hope for?
ArcanaKnight 05-07-07, 02:52 AM	Personally I think that all roleplayers are at least a little crazy, not just female players. Myself included of course:D
ShadowDragon8685 05-07-07, 02:57 AM	Advice, mainly. Answers, possibly. I'd like to set things right, if possible. As for being jealous that she's getting her way? No. Not at all. That's what a game's for, after all. She gets what she wants out of it - money delivered at-will, a starship that by rights no level 7 should ever be allowed to own even if he stole it, a character who could sneak past anything - that's what a game's for... I'm upset that, after seemingly getting her way on everything, she then attempts to urinate on my cheerios, as it were. Frankly, I think that is unfair. Especially since she's the one who precipitated the firefight in which we're getting curb-stomped. And I made it rather clear that my plan was to leave - the bit about "my character sighs in disgust and lowers her lightsaber". Drew screams of traitor from this person's character, as though I'd somehow betrayed them. Then she ignored my attempt to buy her and the other character time to run by holding the BBEG at bomb-point, by starting the shooting. And yes, the DM had made it quite clear that fighting was an unviable option - we were outnumbered, and he spent quite a fair amount of text indicating just how uber this guy's chronies were.
chava 05-07-07, 03:39 AM	Since people already mentioned it - doesn't matter if it's male/female/vegetable - NO conversations that mean anything (esp if you are going to be berating them) when any alcohol has been imbibed (tipsy or drunk really doesn't matter) bc alcohol is a depressant so it doesn't actually mix well with negative reinforcement. ... but my experience has been that women who play D&D are absolutely bat-**** ****ing crazy. I dunno' why. They just are. ... Or maybe I (we/you/men) just bring out the worst in them (gamers/martial artists/psych majors/women). Anyway, SD8685; Sympathy. I'm going with it's you because the girls [yes, plural] I play DnD with are not crazy. At least no more so than the guys I play with.
Ack 05-07-07, 03:48 AM	Since people already mentioned it - doesn't matter if it's male/female/vegetable - NO conversations that mean anything (esp if you are going to be berating them) when any alcohol has been imbibed (tipsy or drunk really doesn't matter) bc alcohol is a depressant so it doesn't actually mix well with negative reinforcement. I'm going with it's you because the girls [yes, plural] I play DnD with are not crazy. At least no more so than the guys I play with. Same here. Okay, I've known some utter cows across the table, but they were cows whether in game or out. The ones I'm in the game with now? Very nice people. Half my age, but very nice people. Even the one that draws sketches of tortured goblins. :D
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 04:04 AM	Usually, I don't do anything. There are crazy boys and girls out there who are jerks in online RPGs. It's the whole equation of... (normal person+internet) = insta jerk Focus on the good rather than the bad. You did well to talk with her but it seems like she has yet to mature a bit more.
Stormbrand 05-07-07, 04:50 AM	Advice, mainly. Answers, possibly. I'd like to set things right, if possible. As for being jealous that she's getting her way? No. Not at all. That's what a game's for, after all. She gets what she wants out of it - money delivered at-will, a starship that by rights no level 7 should ever be allowed to own even if he stole it, a character who could sneak past anything - that's what a game's for... I'm upset that, after seemingly getting her way on everything, she then attempts to urinate on my cheerios, as it were. Frankly, I think that is unfair. Especially since she's the one who precipitated the firefight in which we're getting curb-stomped. And I made it rather clear that my plan was to leave - the bit about "my character sighs in disgust and lowers her lightsaber". Drew screams of traitor from this person's character, as though I'd somehow betrayed them. Then she ignored my attempt to buy her and the other character time to run by holding the BBEG at bomb-point, by starting the shooting. And yes, the DM had made it quite clear that fighting was an unviable option - we were outnumbered, and he spent quite a fair amount of text indicating just how uber this guy's chronies were. Well, first question - Do you want her back? If so, send the message I mentioned or get the DM to send one making it clear that she is welcome to return. If not, fair enough. Perhaps talk to the DM, with the suggestion that if the one who starts a firefight gets fire concentrated on them. She shoots, gets one round of concentrated blasts aimed on her, then the villain resumes negotiations with the others. After all, screams of 'traitor' were a slight clue that the villain could exploit some division between the group. Perhaps part of the problem is that she expects everything handed to her on a platter, and this thing called 'work' throws her. Perhaps she has trouble accepting that there should be difficulties at times. I would have stated it quite plainly to her 'We cannot win this fight.' Sometimes hints do not work. Post what would be your 'Perfect result' and I will see how it can be done. Deal?
lordofskulls 05-07-07, 08:46 AM	First of all it doesn't matter if she is a she or a he. Then my advice is to apologize and see if she wants to come back to your group, you messed up try to set it straight. And to play world of darkness but thats just advice in general.
Vaelan 05-07-07, 10:09 AM	What's not to understand? You harped on a drunk chick well after she explained herself. As a result, she either ended up thinking it was a bigger problem than it actually is or that you're an idiot and not worth her time. Your apology should cover three key points. 1. You weren't listening. 2. You're sorry about not listening. 3. You want her to continue playing.
trapspringer 05-07-07, 01:32 PM	...Very nice people. Half my age, but very nice people. Even the one that draws sketches of tortured goblins. :D ... Oh, yea, it's totally me.
Tzor 05-07-07, 01:56 PM	I'll be the first to say that I don't "understand" female gamers. On the other hand there are a lot of gamers I don't understand and that includes male ones as well. I can say that I have known a variety of female gamers and they covered enough completely different points that I can safely say that there is as much variety with female gamers as there are with male ones. Sometimes I don't even understand myself! :P
Castegyre 05-07-07, 02:42 PM	I have to agree that trying to talk to someone when they are 'tipsy' is probably a bad idea. Reading that transcript from the perspective of it being myself trying to talk to her, I would totally feel the obligation to appologize for several of the reasons already stated. As for female gamers being psycho? Yeah. I have known and dated several. Some I can still call friend. I am married to one now. I love her dearly. They are all psycho. But they aren't any more or less psycho than male gamers are.
Yak of Darkness 05-07-07, 02:51 PM	Advice, mainly. Answers, possibly. I'd like to set things right, if possible.Let it go. That's the best advice you're going to get here. She doesn't want to game with your group anymore, and you . . . As for being jealous that she's getting her way? No. Not at all. That's what a game's for, after all. She gets what she wants out of it - money delivered at-will, a starship that by rights no level 7 should ever be allowed to own even if he stole it, a character who could sneak past anything - that's what a game's for... I'm upset that, after seemingly getting her way on everything, she then attempts to urinate on my cheerios, as it were. Frankly, I think that is unfair. Especially since she's the one who precipitated the firefight in which we're getting curb-stomped. . . . are still bitter over her character getting things in-game that you don't think she deserves (saying "I'm not jealous" and immediately following it with a list of things you see as unfair is somewhat less than convincing), as well as what you see as poor tactics in-game that you've, paranoid, ascribed ulterior motives to her in ("She reminds me a lot of this crazy stalker chick I knew! Suspicious! And even if it's not her, she probably intentionally ruined my fun!"). You're too worked up over this crap, and she doesn't want anything to do with your game. And really, from the looks of it, you'd be better off not having anything to do with gaming with her, either. Be good for the blood pressure, if nothing else. Let it go. Not all gaming groups work out. Move on.
danielinthewolvesden 05-07-07, 02:59 PM	Does it matter? Yes, because the OP thinks that this player is repesentative of females in general, even tho it does not seem to be a female.
Grand Theft Otto 05-07-07, 03:06 PM	Oi. First off, everybody who's jumping me about basing my opinions on two females, I've only given you the most recent example, and the most psychotic example, who, with my passing grade in psychology, I can say with about a 56% chance of feeling correct may be clinically psychotic. You know the jokes about the psych student analyzing everyone? Dont be that guy. Theres a reason you need more than a couple years of undergrad and a DSM to run a practice. ;) Theres 3 women, and 2 men (including myself), in our current gaming group. Everything works fine. The girls call the PC party a clam bake (3 female PC's 1 male).
trapspringer 05-07-07, 04:35 PM	Yes, because the OP thinks that this player is repesentative of females in general, even tho it does not seem to be a female. Man, you are on a rip about that, aren't you? (I mean, statistically some staggering percentage of "females" you'll meet on line have a y chromosome, but hey...)
Ongorth 05-07-07, 04:50 PM	I agree with pwnage llama. (Being able to say that has been my life's goal for the passed four days, I'm so glad its happened I can hardly type!)
UAMDB 05-07-07, 05:40 PM	Ok let me see if i got this right. Her character has been doing cool things, and tells your character what to do, but was with in the rules. Your character tried to do something that was really cool, but was NOT in the rules. She called you on it, and She is the one that is ******* in your Cherrios. After the game you talk to her online. (We will ignore the alcohol for now) You mention somthing that she did to upset you. She apologies for this. Your response is "Thats not what I'm talking about." As far as the TPK goes, I dont think she was tring to stop your character from saving the day. She just wanted you to save the day per the rules. I am not saying that you tried to cheat. You very well could have misread the rules. It happens all the time. She corrected you on this. It happens all the time. My group has been playing together for about a year now. Individually we have been playing for about 10-20 years each. We correct each other on the rules every game session. It does not matter who is DM'ing and whose favor the ruling is going. We play be the rules. And yes we have had TKP because someone corrected the DM. 5 out of 6 PC's were killed by Mummy Rot, and because we corrected the DM on the things that can cure Mummy Rot. So in summary. If she is a pycho because she wants to play be the rules, then you must be a fat lonely man who still lives with his parents, and has not chance of ever touching a real woman because you only want to use the rules that favor you, and ignore the rules that dont favor you. On a side note, just because you receive a passing grade in one class does not make you an expect on the subject. I too took pychology (In college even, not highschool) and one of the things we learned was that there was a case study done that shows a high number of first year pych students will try to diagnost people after only receiving an overview of disorders.
Shadowhowler 05-07-07, 07:28 PM	Case and point. A female player, playing a bow-wielding ranger, was backed up against a wall by a street thug. Having nowhere to go, she attempted to use her arrow as a weapon, something that is clearly detailed in the PHB. She would be taking penalties, low damage potential, etc... but in that situation that is what the character would have done, there was a mechanic in place for it and what happened? Quote the DM, "This isn't hollywood, and you're not Legolas. An arrow is't made for that" Huh? Eh? Pardon me, but didn't that other guy just lob a friggin' fireball? No one else had the gumption to question "rule 0" so I looked the mechanic up, showed the DM, and he still ruled against it. For the sake of moving on, we dropped it, but not before I made clear that if we, as players, could not rely on the PHB for options and rules clarifications, why should we even have the blasted things. I think I also threw a "that's real lame, dude" in there for good measure. Thats more then real lame, it's grounds for getting a new DM. Seriously. Even if there were not laid out mechanics for using an arrow as a melee weapon (which, as you pointed out, there are) there are also mechanics for using just about ANYTHING as a improvised weapon. And... even if there were not improvised weapon mechanics, it does NOT take a huge leap of logic to see that, while an arrow was not designed for melee use, a stick with a sharp blade at the end of it would make a VERY functional improvised melee weapon if you wanted to jab someone with it. Your DM is a jacka$$, I'm sorry. I see no excsue for saying 'No, you cant do that'. What bunk.
Shadowhowler 05-07-07, 07:44 PM	I posted this in bandchick's thread momentarily before pulling it because it didn't really pretain directly to the topic, but my experience has been that women who play D&D are absolutely bat-**** ****ing crazy. I dunno' why. They just are. Makes it hard to meet chicks with whom I have a common interest, 'cuz it seems like girls into martial arts also share psycho-syndrome. And psyhc majors? Holy ****, you don't even know. Uh... A few years ago, I met a girl in a game. She was also into Martial arts. Guess what? I married her. Sorry. ;)
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-07, 07:52 PM	This is why I just don't allow women into my D&D game. It just makes things so much easier.
Shadowhowler 05-07-07, 07:54 PM	This is why I just don't allow women into my D&D game. It just makes things so much easier. I HOPE your kidding...
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-07, 07:56 PM	Nope. Ever since my wife and I split up, I no longer had to allow females in my group. Since then, there have been fewer arguments, fewer temper tantrums, and less drama in general.
Shadowhowler 05-07-07, 08:31 PM	Nope. Ever since my wife and I split up, I no longer had to allow females in my group. Since then, there have been fewer arguments, fewer temper tantrums, and less drama in general. :( Well, I feel for you as far as your loss... I honestly can not imagen the pain of lossing my wife, I don't even like to contimplate it. I'm also sorry that it seems to have turned you bitter, tho I can certanly understand that. Hope things are better in the future.
Chalkboard_Sonata 05-08-07, 12:40 AM	Not to stir the pot, but I think it is important that we address the verifiability of the OP's IRC cut-and-paste. Although I'm not implying that what ShadowDragon posted is false, I think it must be taken into consideration that it is possible it does not accurately reflect the actual conversation that took place. I seem to remember ShadowDragon coming to the boards multiple times in the past seeking vindication, using account that starkly differed from accounts given by other posters. In any case, I'm failing to see the point of this thread, save the OP looking to get his internet ego stroked a bit. If I'm wrong, please bring clarification forward.
trapspringer 05-08-07, 01:05 AM	I'm thinkin' your at the very least without base in your accusations. SD8685 has a fairly decent posting history. He's a regular who generally offers good advice and doesn't ask stupid questions (accepting this thread, which is an obvious "vent thread"). Further, the transcript doesn't reflect well on any party, least of all SD8685. If i'm gunna' take the time to cheat, I'm at least gunna' win because of it, ya know?
Chalkboard_Sonata 05-08-07, 01:32 AM	I'm thinkin' your at the very least without base in your accusations. SD8685 has a fairly decent posting history. He's a regular who generally offers good advice and doesn't ask stupid questions (accepting this thread, which is an obvious "vent thread"). Further, the transcript doesn't reflect well on any party, least of all SD8685. If i'm gunna' take the time to cheat, I'm at least gunna' win because of it, ya know? Accusations were not my intention, calling attention to what I've seen as a past history of "internet validation," however, was. While I respect ShadowDragon for his contributions in the many other threads, I hardly think that he should thus be granted immunity from a critical eye - especially since this is not his first post of this nature. And simply because Shadow does not come off unscathed in the IRC post is by no means evidence that it reflects the truth. I'd counter your assertion that "If i'm gunna' take the time to cheat, I'm at least gunna' win because of it" with, "If I'm going to cheat, I'm gonna scratch myself up a bit so that when I do win, it doesn't look like I cheated. In any case, I don't want to tread too far down that path, because as you stated, we also have no evidence that the conversation was doctored (Save SD's own admission to changing names). All I want to do is just bring to light the precariousness of one prevalent assumption floating throughout this thread.
Optimator 05-08-07, 02:14 AM	Well, I've only gamed with one female, and she just happened to be insane. So far, it's one for one in my history.
danielinthewolvesden 05-08-07, 03:22 AM	Man, you are on a rip about that, aren't you? (I mean, statistically some staggering percentage of "females" you'll meet on line have a y chromosome, but hey...) And the OP will not answer my question, either note.:waits: :uh-huh: I repectfully disagree with Count Arioch - in my 30 years of DMing epxerince, generally I find female players to be better behaved than males, by a long shot.
green_yawgmoth 05-08-07, 03:42 AM	Yeah, from the looks of that, she wants to play by the rules, no matter if it's for or against the party. She sounded like she was trying to find a way to be amicable, but you were hellbent on finding out why she was "trying to get a TPK", and rather than deal with your accusations every time she makes a combat mistake, she just quit. Good job, this is why we can't have nice female gamers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Argo 05-08-07, 04:09 AM	It's a pet peeve of mine to use the word "female" as a noun. It always sounds like a nature show, and doesn't denote the respect that some people think it does. I prefer using 'female' as a verb. -What did you do last night? -Hung out with Steve. We went femaling.
Shadowhowler 05-08-07, 06:40 AM	I repectfully disagree with Count Arioch - in my 30 years of DMing epxerince, generally I find female players to be better behaved than males, by a long shot. 100% aggreed. It's hard to base a generalization like this on gender... to say something like 'Male players do this, female players do that' becuase, over the years, I have met a LOT of differnt types of gamers. However, if I had to make a gender based clasification... a higher % of women players I've ran games for had respect for the game and other players, didn't screw with the game or other players, kept in and out of game issues seprate, and were all around 'better behaved' then their male counterparts. So... as I said before... my experince with women who are gamers has been the exact oposet of the OP's here... which is evidenced in no small part by my wife, who is one of if not the most level headed player I have ever delt with.
Silverthumb128 05-08-07, 11:00 AM	She pulled off a nigh-impossible Pilot roll to de-orbit on the Star Wars equavilent of a Switchblade glider, with another character strapped to her chest, and not only that, but she managed to land on the roof in question. Then she proceeded to, completely solo, because by this point the other character's player had left, Splinter-Cell her way into the building, stunning guards quietly, hacking the security systems and shutting them down. Ok, I have a question: WTF does that mean? Wouldn't this be better posted on a Star Wars RPG board, where everyone plays it? As far as I can tell, that's either completely plausible, or impossible, without the context, I really couldn't tell. Although if she actually passed those rolls, then there ceases to be any problem, other than a personal one.
Comus 05-08-07, 11:35 AM	Nope. Ever since my wife and I split up, I no longer had to allow females in my group. Since then, there have been fewer arguments, fewer temper tantrums, and less drama in general. I hate to say this, but I think your viewpoint is perhaps somewhat biased due to past experience not related to gaming. Of all the problem players I've ever had, the guys outnumbered the girls three to one, and the only real problem girl is almost forgivable, because her boyfriend dragged her there and she didn't want to play anyway. Of the other girls I play with, I'm dating one and so am not able to give impartial commentary on her (though she enjoys gaming more than I do, and tends to come up with better backstories - not to mention causing less ingame trouble than my typically low-WIS characters do). The other two I regularly game with IRL are co-GMing a game, but I've seen them as players as well, and they are definitely not distruptive (and will welcome them warmly when/if they decide to join my Monday night game). Heck, just about all the drama I've ever been involved in in games has come from guys. Mostly control freaks. The womens have usually been good team players, unlike the lone wolves I've had to deal with on the Y side of the equasion.
Thamio 05-08-07, 01:12 PM	I believe all males have a hard understanding of females, and quite sure Females have hard understanding of males. We have to take that into cosideration whenever we communicate. If you talk to me like you did her I would be alright I'll try to do better, or I didnt fully understand what you were doing, and I thought I was doing what was in best interest to the game. As if you talk to my wife like you did, she would feel like you were yelling at her pointing out her every mistake as if it was intentional, and seeing it as you trying you to get her to quit. I dunno what her alcohol level was but if she was having trouble typing, she was S*** faced drunk. And which in effect would cause her emotions to take the better of her. Now Im not saying all females are like this, since everyone is a indiviual and has there own morals, opinions, and lifesytle. So to base anyone off a sterotype is in my opinion is wrong no matter the ratio If I were you I would wait until shes not under the influence, talk to her and get the DM on in it to to see if you guys to get her character to be a lil bit more useful. If shes around your location buy her a beer or something. You never know what a player has instore for a session even if they started off badly.
Bringer of autumn 05-08-07, 01:43 PM	Women dont take criticism that well.
Phrennzy 05-08-07, 01:43 PM	ShadowDragon8685: It was more like you were trying to get us all killed... ShadowDragon8685: When you were rules-lawyering my desperate attempts to pull off an absoloute miracle and use Sever Force on the Inquisitor, you kept trying everything to sabotage my attempt. ShadowDragon8685: Granted, I did not know the full-round action thing, that was a mistake. But in light of the circumstances, why were you bringing it up? ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing things that, frankly, looked like you were trying to get our characters killed. ShadowDragon8685: You mean pre-empt a mexican standoff (with bombs) by shooting? ShadowDragon8685: That was in very poor tactical taste, but I'm talking about correcting the DM on rules mistakes he makes in our favor. ShadowDragon8685: I'm not saying "stay on the ship" or "don't bring up rules", I'm saying "why were you acting in a way seemingly at crossed purposes with the party"? ShadowDragon8685: I'm just asking why you were doing something that I found irrational and/or possibly hostile. I'm not trying to drive you off, just understand what was going on. This Instant Messanger conversation does not paint you in a good light at all. I hope that you can learn by rereading it after the other comments on this board. This exchange had nothing to do with the gender of the person. I have gamed with three women in the past. All were short lived. The first girl did not really care for it (her PC died from a flock of stirges). The second girl joined simply to be with a fella she liked (it was not reciprocated). The third girl was a great, innovative player, who left when her relationship with her bf (also a player) ended. None were more psycho than any other woman I have ever met. I do believe that ALL women are psycho, just as ALL men are stupid. C'est la vie. I am fortunate enough to be homosexual, and so, while I get to avoid psychotics, I am hip deep in stupidity. ShadowDragon, from what I understand from my married, straight friends, you will never understand women. Enjoy.
DyloniusFunk 05-08-07, 02:13 PM	This sounds like a pretty complicated situation. I feel like i should add a story i recently had. I was in a Eberron game run by a friend who lives in my dorm. it was me, 3 other guys and one of their girlfriends. We had another guy but at this time his character had been killed and his new one hadn't been brought in, plus he didn't seem that interested in the game. Anyway i admit i'd missed a few sessions mostly due to being away during vacation weeks or on one week when iw as home during a freak April ice storm and didn't want to drive back up to the campus. In any case one session we had this girl palying who i didn't know. They told me her character had been in the game earleir and she pops in from time to time. We found her fighting fof crabs on a beach where she had washed up from a shipwreck. IN any case, my character was a Cleric and he healed her first. After a bit we get to a cave with these oozes, and at that point the game tooka break while two fo the guys, the guys girlfriend and the other girl have a conference wiht the DM that lasted at leats a half hour. What ended up happening is that the new girl took the other guy who wa snot involed in the conference around a corner and started seduceing him. The guys girlfriend bull riushed me into an ozze where i failed all my saving throws. One of the guys who was an alchemist was taking samples of the ozze and the other guy, the boyfriend, just stodd by and did nothing. I found out later that the girlfriend's character was neutral evil and didn't like that she didn't get focused on enough. I didn't healk her fast enough, and i forgot i had a Restoration spell at one point that she could have uysed ( ok stupid on my aprt but hell i'm not a damm d&d encyclopedia, we all make mistakes). Overall i felt i had played my Cleric well but she was greedy and didn't like not being the center of attention. The other girl was playing Chaotic Evil and didn't like me, just because she didn't like me. I felt that her dislike of me was out of game. Earlier she had made this deal about how she was feeling sick which she kept bringing up and didn't want to eat, but when i asked if i should stop eating my snack since i was right next to her she said it was fine. IN any case she didn't like me and wanted to kill me even though i had healed her first because she had taken mroe damage in a fight, something that ****** off the Neutral Evil girl, the girlfriend player. In any case i made a decision right there. 1. Not to play Good in an neutral/evil party. My DM dosen't seem to understand the difference between Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Stupiud and he elt this **** go down. needless to say my opinion of him as a DM droped a bit 2.Not to pllay with the Chaotic Evil girl. I didn't particularly like her much out of game, so if we try to start a new game next semester and she want sin i won't be in it. 3. Be suspicious of any character the other girl makes. She's a nice enough girl but she dosen't speak up and is very quiet. So it's hard to tell what she wants. Also she walked away from em one time after i did a cure spell on her so i assumed she was fine, then i got yelled at by the other to finish healing her. Well when someone stands up and walks away from me i assume they are done with my services. I
ArcTan 05-08-07, 05:36 PM	I'm not sure whether this thread makes me feel worse about being male or playing D&D.
Whisper_Swiftblade 05-08-07, 07:43 PM	i will grant that she is a little loopy, but I would not say craze. The lazer during a standoff was a poor call, but those things happen, and while reminding you guys about the AoO was kinda strange, unless your party has a tendancy to ignore the details, and this is the only time she has ever brought something like this up, reminding peers of the rules (even the ones yu don't want) is something many would encourage.
Mock26 05-08-07, 07:51 PM	Instead of playing online, you might want to consider some actual human-to-human interaction. You have to remember that most people behave differently online than in person. Once you start dealing with some women in the real world you'll see that they really aren't all that different than male gamers, other than being female. Bear in mind, some of them will be psychotics, just as some will be the nicest people in the world. Some will suck at gaming and some will be the best gamers you've ever met. As I said, except for being female, they're just like gamers throughout the world, they come in all shapes and sizes and personality types and everything else.
WizO_Cat 05-08-07, 10:08 PM	Yep. Sure sounds like a Star Wars d20 conversation. So moved.
trapspringer 05-08-07, 10:51 PM	Yep. Sure sounds like a Star Wars d20 conversation. So moved. Yea... I was kinda wonderin' 'bout that. The moving, I mean. But now that you mention it it [i]is[/i[ Star Warz.
Dyne 05-08-07, 11:15 PM	I'm not sure where the "psycho" part comes in. There were so many rules mistakes that I myself would've spoken up and said "Wait a minute, I don't think that's the way it's done." Fudging die rolls is one thing, fudging rules is quite another. As for opening fire on the BBEG, there could be various reasons for that. My old group of players didn't know what the concept of "running away" meant, and would've stood there and died fighting no matter how obviously impossible the encounter was. Maybe she was somehow wanting to prove that her character could be useful, and her jealousy lead to some irrational decision-making. I don't know all the circumstances of the situation, but I doubt she was trying to do a TPK. The rest of you guys could've just left her there to die anyway, running away while she attacked, so it wouldn't be a very effective method of causing a total player kill.
mausidious 05-08-07, 11:56 PM	Oh good gravy.. You don't 'know' that girl well enough to make a call. You certainly don't seem to be willing to look at the conversation or the situation from her viewpoint, which means you aren't likely to understand her, and are more likely to try to fit any 'female' you meet into your handy, dandy preconceived and comfortable (for you) mold. You, sir, and fellas like you and Mr. I-Don't-Game-With-Wimminfolk are why its so darned hard to try to talk girls who may be interested into giving gaming a fair shot.
Darth_Beyond 05-09-07, 12:34 AM	I will admit I have not read the original post or where the conversation has lead. I have one thing to say based exclusively on the title of this thread. I come here to avoid that kind of stuff.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 01:43 AM	Shadow, where'd you go. normally you aren't afraid to take on a ton of people at any level. :D I know this is a bad idea, but I have to stick up for Shadow here, he didn't do anything wrong. I would wonder as to him mood when he talked to this female but it was done online, so nothing but the text matters. There is such a thing as a gamers code of conduct, generally speaking up on the rule to hurt another player is out side that code. If the GM wants to ignore some rules, then none of the players should be bugging him about it. To be honest, she used the "it's what my charater would have done" argument to do something stupid, and she followed that up with being extremey strict on the rules. That's bad form, and most of us don't like to play with those people. Rule-Lawers are ok to an extent, but that was really a good time for Shadows character to shine, and, how it read, she did her best to stop it. This wasn't a table-top game where all the players can see eachother and can tell to some extent why the other haracter is doing what they are doing, it's just an online chatroom (or PbP, not sure). When I read that it looked like one player was being petty and was trying to ruin another players clever actions. As for female Rpers being psychotic, I was gong to write a large section with a huge analizis of females in RPGs, but I decided that would be very smart here. What it comes down to is that female Rpers are different then other females, it's not a females hobby so to speak. The problem with this is that they are forced to try and fit into a male dominated group, and so they act oddly. They copy or imitate the males to fit in, and that doesn't feel right to most males. Not that females shouldn't play, it's just a bit weird when they try too hard to fit instead of being themselves. Of course, anyone with a low self esteem has those tendancies, it's just more preveant among female RPers.* Shadowdragon, you fell for a very old trick. The thing is, you really can't win with females, it took me along time to learn this, but they have way to much going for them. The biggest one, no matter what you do, they can make you feel bad about it. YThe only consolation I can give you is you did do anything wrong, you even tried to fix it, but she was being irrational, and you can only do so much. I don't now if she falls into psychotic, I tent to keep that one in reserve for real nuts, but you couldn't really have one much better. Not that I've had many bad experiances with bad female role-players, the ratio has probably been about the same. I love female Rpers, but this isn't their hobby. It's like guys who, say, get into doll collecting when they're young or who really really, love home decor, they just strike some of us as different, those are female hobbies, and they have tendancies toward that. Males don't normally. That went alot longer then a "*" should.
mausidious 05-09-07, 02:09 AM	Well hallelujah chunky peanut butter, thank you for pointing out that the real problem is that we ladies should stick to what we know.. which apparently involves making sure no man, anywhere, anyhow, has a clue as to how to 'win' with us. Let's get down to brass tacks, kids. Roleplaying, be it D&D, SW, or your run of the mill MMORPG is about make believe. What in the world is it about having your reproductive organs on the outside of your body that makes playing a game of today-I'm-a-Jedi-Knight exclusively yours? Do you even realize how amazingly cloddish that sentiment comes across as being? For what its worth, one of the longest running and most entertaining D&D games I was ever a part of had 4 females and 1 male! I've also gamed with men often, and never heard that I was being irrational, unreasonable, or difficult. I've done my best to be an asset to every party I've joined, and take advice graciously. Thanks for reiterating one of the stupidest, tiredest stereotypes about gamers!
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 02:46 AM	Thank you, you've made my point quite brilliantly. I've also gamed with men often, and never heard that I was being irrational, unreasonable, or difficult. Now, how many females do you know who have never been accused of this? :D Now, onto the normal banter. Well hallelujah chunky peanut butter, thank you for pointing out that the real problem is that we ladies should stick to what we know.. which apparently involves making sure no man, anywhere, anyhow, has a clue as to how to 'win' with us. Your quite welcome :D I never said females should stick to what they know, I said that females have certain tendancies which normally do not lead them to roleplaying. Females that do are in the minority, hence they are "different" then normal female. I never said this was bad, you're just taking it that way. I'm perfectly fine with female RPers, I enjoy playing with them often (that sounded wrong :nonono: ). Your being irrational :cool: I don't get the second part, are you admitting to constantly changing your desires just to frusturate all males? Isn't there rules against saying those things out loud? Let's get down to brass tacks, kids. Roleplaying, be it D&D, SW, or your run of the mill MMORPG is about make believe. What in the world is it about having your reproductive organs on the outside of your body that makes playing a game of today-I'm-a-Jedi-Knight exclusively yours? Do you even realize how amazingly cloddish that sentiment comes across as being? And we continue down the road of fire. I never said any of that, but I bring up my favorite little thing here: What percentage of the general population is male? Just under half. What percentage of males players RPG? I have no clue. What percentage of RPers are female? Again I don't know, but I do know this, it's less than 25%. I'd be willing to sat it's less than 10%. What does that tell us? A very simple principle, far more males play RPGs then females. Why, because males have more of the tendancy toward it. If 5% of males played RPGs, the only 1.25% of females play them. See, females don't gravitiate toward RPGs, it's just not that way. Females that do play are different, just like the males who play. But males have the higher tendancy, and females who come into RPGs tend to mimic the males since that is the type who leans toward RPGs. That's logical. For what its worth, one of the longest running and most entertaining D&D games I was ever a part of had 4 females and 1 male! I've also gamed with men often, and never heard that I was being irrational, unreasonable, or difficult. I've done my best to be an asset to every party I've joined, and take advice graciously. So, your a good role-player, I never said females weren't. I don't think I even mentioned skill or quality. Besides, that's DnD, not hard core gaming like the rest of us nerds. :P What I did say was that female role-players are something of an abnormallity, it's just not a naturally female hobby. A female who makes it a habbit to know every stat from her favorite baseball team watches it as much as possible, and is in every way a base ball fan is simply not common. If she then constantly hangs out (Don't comment) with the guys who are also fans, they'll get use to it, but if she just walks in the den, plops down, and starting acting just like them, the males will feel a bit awkward. It's not normal, but niether is role-playng, but a female role-player...well that's out of there. :eek: Just so you know, as a GM I've only once turned down a female role-player for one of my games. In fact, I normally play in groups that are 30-50% female. Thanks for reiterating one of the stupidest, tiredest stereotypes about gamers! You know I'll always be here for you. :rolleyes:
Critalondel 05-09-07, 03:14 AM	What does that tell us? A very simple principle, far more males play RPGs then females. Yes, more males than females play RPGs. That's not a big secret. Your made up statistics are unnecessary to explain this, simply glancing at a photo taken at Gencon or something can confirm it quite handily. More guys than girls play RPGs. The reason for that isn't a big secret, either -- just reading over this thread will explain it to you in gruesome detail. Here is a hint: it has nothing at all to do with the games themselves, and everything to do with the misanthropic sorts that often play them.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 03:23 AM	Yes, more males than females play RPGs. That's not a big secret. Your made up statistics are unnecessary to explain this, simply glancing at a photo taken at Gencon or something can confirm it quite handily. More guys than girls play RPGs. The reason for that isn't a big secret, either -- just reading over this thread will explain it to you in gruesome detail. Here is a hint: it has nothing at all to do with the games themselves, and everything to do with the misanthropic sorts that often play them. Ok :confused: so your saying I'm right, my made up stats help emphasise my point. Additionally, I was pointing out that I don't know the numbers, and emphasising my lack of knowledge. It's a rather common method in both writing and speaking. As for you hint, I don't get it. It has to do with the people and types of people who play them, I get that, there's no reason to give me a hint about it. Are you trying to say that females don't RP because males players don't let them? Because, in America, that deon't make any sence.
Dyne 05-09-07, 04:01 AM	I don't get the second part, are you admitting to constantly changing your desires just to frusturate all males? Isn't there rules against saying those things out loud? Good god, does no one nowadays understand how to read verbal irony? :nonono: females who come into RPGs tend to mimic the males since that is the type who leans toward RPGs. That's logical. I have never, ever met a female RPGer that imitated males. That would be... really creepy.... Though I have met male RPGers that imitate females. :eek: And I agree with pretty much everything Mausidious has said. My gender is retarded.
Docrailgun 05-09-07, 07:07 AM	Ditto. I'd say that the OP has just unforunately run across a number of irrational people. So, I'm voting for the "psycho" choice rather than the other two. Wow, quite the rant! :eek: My own experince with female gamers has been DRASTICLY differant. I've found female gamers to be more intrested in roleplay and less intrested in numbers and min maxing then male gamers. I've also found them to have a better sense of in game/out of game then a lot of guys. However, most of them have been less intrested in learning the rules overly much then their male counterparts. Quite a differant experince then yours...
Critalondel 05-09-07, 07:19 AM	I'm saying -- for those who might've missed it -- that more guys than girls play RPGs because, judging from some of the posts in this thread, all the stereotypes about gamers are true, and most girls don't want to hang out with you (yes, you!). Seriously, fellas. C'mon. Read the earlier pages of this thread, and you'll see that half of you guys are coming off as a step away from middle school kids who still think girls are gross 'cause of what you heard in Health Class last year. Eww, menstruation! Listen to yourselves. Even the simple fact so many people feel a need to constantly differentiate between gamers based on gender in the first place tells you something, doesn't it? I'm sorry if you don't know how to talk to girls (or anyone else), but blaming that on the girls isn't the way to fix your problem(s). I mean, seriously. A grown man is saying girls aren't "allowed" at his gaming table any more? Allright, buddy. I'm sure you're just having to turn 'em away by the dozen, huh? They're beating down your door, begging to spend their Friday nights with you and your pals, right? Just like they were falling all over themselves twenty five years ago, wanting to get up in the treehouse with you and your buddies despite the "NO GURLZ ALOWED!!!!" sign you'd made, huh? Here's the big secret -- A gamer's a gamer. Some of 'em bring drama to the table, some bring melodrama, some just bring a good time. It doesn't matter if they're a dude or a chick. Some folks turn to role playing games as their only real social outlet because they've got some problems or some messed up priorities and don't have any idea how to actually talk to people. Some of those folks are gonna be male, some are gonna be female. Some of those folks are posting in this thread right now. Blaming all chick gamers for the actions of a few is pathetic, coming from the same people that get all self righteously indignant whenever the "gamer stereotype" comes up (which is only insulting because it's so spot on). In short -- grow up.
Valheru 05-09-07, 07:34 AM	My experience has always been that females are the most enjoyable players to have in a game. When I got enough girls together, I was going to run a simultaneous campaign in the same world, one with all female players, and one with all male. It never happened, the girls would dominate the world and the guys would never keep up. But's that's just the experience I've had with male and female players.
Steely_Dan 05-09-07, 07:54 AM	It's the lack of necks, and wide, yet flat hips that terrifies me.
Tordelbach 05-09-07, 08:16 AM	I just can't believe I'm reading this in the year 2007 - "Dames - whaddaya gonna do?". Granted, there seems to have been some confusion and disharmony in the game (originating from both sides), but why would anyone assume that this has anything to do with one player's gender, rather than the general dynamics of the players and the group? Because of some bad experiences with other people of the same gender in the past? Even if a person is being unilaterally difficult (which I don't see in this case), it's far more likely that their personality is the problem, rather than their gender/race/nationality/age. To quote the warden of a certain animal refuge on the subject of Bart's elephant Stampy: "Some of them act badly because they've had a hard life, or have been mistreated...but, like people, some of them are just jerks." I foresee hard times ahead for the OP in RL...
Waylan Wolf 05-09-07, 10:47 AM	Do I not understand females in general? Yes. You do not understand women at all. Furthermore, pointing out the rules does not make someone psychotic. Third, you handled the AIM conversation very poorly... probably because of your deficient understanding of women in general. My father taught me to play D&D as a young boy, when it first came out in the 70's. He and all his Army buddies would get together every 2 weeks and play. Later it was my Dad and my 3 brothers. Then one day my Aunt ran a game for us... that was my first encounter with a "female gamer". I also gamed with 2 of my cousins... both of them girls. Most recently I've gamed in a campaign with 3 women, and I actually married one of them. :cool:
Jedi_Dade 05-09-07, 10:54 AM	Basically It comes down to this. You were in the moment during the game running YOUR plan. She was not onboard with YOUR plan and excuted one of her own. SHE'S playing too, and just because your plan was better strategically, and might have turned out better in the end. Does not mean she was trying to get you killed. As for it being a guy vs. girl thing I've dealt with male players that act equally foolishly... However your follow-up reaction was not called for. If you were going to talk about the game afterwarsd you should have suggested that in the future you coordinate your plans instead of accusing her of trying to get you killed just because she did not flow with your plan. Now before you get all "you SOB how dare you question my actions..." I've done a very similar thing in the past - with a male palyer - that I thought was acting stupid... I was the guy that had the great plan that was being messed up and I was hot. The ensuing argument that followed ended the same as yours with the other player quit the game... I have since toned down my play a bit realizing that I NEED to consider that I'm not the only player playing - even if I may be the player with the best idea. They HAVE THE RIGHT TO PLAY HOW THEY WISH even if its against what you and I would do... and we need to suck it up and take it under those circumstances... Or find a game they are not playing in... As for chicks in a game - DUDE you're an idiot if you're heterosexual and developing an aversion to RPGing with girls... Finding a partner that shares your interests is one of the true blessings you will ever find, and a girl that plays... is a girl to keep around... Just in case she's the one... My $.02 Jedi Dade
honeynuggets 05-09-07, 11:07 AM	Okay, some background. I play my gaming primarily over OpenRPG, and over the years, I've noticed a trend. All the actual female players seem to be absoloute bughouse psychotic, or on their way there. To me it seems she felt frustrated that the campaign was weighted towards hack/slash instead of Diplomacy. This is why it should be mandatory for all RPGA and WoTC adventures to include at least one encounter in each of the classic settings, preferably in this order. (diplomacy(resource+/-), high speed vehicle chase, shootout, space battle, and finally dark side fight)
I. J. Thompson 05-09-07, 11:53 AM	All I know is, if I go out, get snookered, and then end up at home on AIM, you do not wanna mess with me. And c'mon... "poor tactical taste"? That'll getcha a slap at the best of times! :) (edit: oh yeah - and then there's this: http://www.theonion.com/content/radio_news/slightly_upset_woman )
Mock26 05-09-07, 03:59 PM	It is definitely time to move out of your parent's basement and learn how to deal, face to face, with members of the opposite sex.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 04:08 PM	Good god, does no one nowadays understand how to read verbal irony? :nonono: Perhaps some of us like to continue the irony by adding onto it suspicions of a world wide conspiracy by females to make life difficult for males. See, unlike some posters, I just come here to enjoy myself. If someone makes a joke, I'll come back with one. I have never, ever met a female RPGer that imitated males. That would be... really creepy.... Not really, I'm not sayin they try and act just like males, but they do develope some more masculin traits. Compare them to your typical cheerleader or nurse, you'll probably find female RPer o be more manish then them. Though I have met male RPGers that imitate females. :eek: :nonono: Yep seen that way too much. And I agree with pretty much everything Mausidious has said. My gender is retarded. Now there is a problem, females are actually making you dislike your own gender. Somehow, Mausidious is allowed to be all offended by my non-offensive comments (by allowed, I don't mean to ban her) yet at the same time attack males. Males, however, are not suppose to fight back, we have to accept it. Sorry, that doesn't fly around me, I'm male and proud of it. I'm saying -- for those who might've missed it -- that more guys than girls play RPGs because, judging from some of the posts in this thread, all the stereotypes about gamers are true, and most girls don't want to hang out with you (yes, you!). That's the funny thing about stereotypes, alot of times, their right. People don't like it, but stereotyping isn't a bad thing. Another funny thing, I've never had trouble with females who I liked. Even the ones I dislike I could still eaily get along with. Eww, menstruation! Because bodily fluids and blood coming out of another person is a beautiful thing. We should put it in lava lamps and place them on our mantle to show females we accept them. :P It's not a lack of growing up, it's growing up the right way. Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows. I mean, seriously. A grown man is saying girls aren't "allowed" at his gaming table any more? Allright, buddy. I'm sure you're just having to turn 'em away by the dozen, huh? They're beating down your door, begging to spend their Friday nights with you and your pals, right? Just like they were falling all over themselves twenty five years ago, wanting to get up in the treehouse with you and your buddies despite the "NO GURLZ ALOWED!!!!" sign you'd made, huh? Had to get a stick to beat them off, even then you could keep them away for long. :cool: Maybe some males still have the self-confidence to say when they've had enough. Sometimes, you just want to do something with people from your gender and let the females do something else. Some of us get tired of having females around all the time and just want to get away. So, if I say I just want to hang out with my guys, 'm being childish? Here's the big secret -- A gamer's a gamer. Some of 'em bring drama to the table, some bring melodrama, some just bring a good time. It doesn't matter if they're a dude or a chick. Some folks turn to role playing games as their only real social outlet because they've got some problems or some messed up priorities and don't have any idea how to actually talk to people. Some of those folks are gonna be male, some are gonna be female. Some of those folks are posting in this thread right now. Blaming all chick gamers for the actions of a few is pathetic, coming from the same people that get all self righteously indignant whenever the "gamer stereotype" comes up (which is only insulting because it's so spot on). Who's stereotyping now? You left out one catigory though, those of us who just get tired of females after a bit. Some guys go watch sports, others go to movies, and some of us play RPGs. No difference. Remeber the part where I said I never told a female they couldn't play, oh, and f you read back I haven't said one bad thing about females in general or in specific. I just thought I'd bring that up again. I just can't believe I'm reading this in the year 2007 - "Dames - whaddaya gonna do?". Granted, there seems to have been some confusion and disharmony in the game (originating from both sides), but why would anyone assume that this has anything to do with one player's gender, rather than the general dynamics of the players and the group? Maybe because females are different. :eek: They are, in general, more emotional, less rational, and more likely to take offence then remeber it for a long time. None of that is a bad thing, it's just a difference some people are obviously offended by difference, but they aren't going to bea ththose differences out of us. The focus is different with females than it is with males. To me it seems she felt frustrated that the campaign was weighted towards hack/slash instead of Diplomacy. This is why it should be mandatory for all RPGA and WoTC adventures to include at least one encounter in each of the classic settings, preferably in this order. (diplomacy(resource+/-), high speed vehicle chase, shootout, space battle, and finally dark side fight) Because we should all be forced to play the same way. Maybe they like hack and slash, that;s how they play, she didn't fit in, so why is it Shadowdragons fault that she quit? If you came into my current campaine wanting to play a scoundrel who never takes the spotlight and sort of blends in, then you're not going to have a good time. If you don't want to play our type of game, don't try and force us to play your type. Same as if you wanted toplay a Dark Sider, it just doesn't fit. If she came inwantin to play a Noble diplomat, then she should have made sure that character would have fit in. If she got upset over it, she shouldn't have quit because someone ask her if she was purposefully trying to derail the party. Doesn't matter if it's a he or a she, you gotta play with the other players, not against them.
HamHam 05-09-07, 04:13 PM	I mean, seriously. A grown man is saying girls aren't "allowed" at his gaming table any more? Allright, buddy. I'm sure you're just having to turn 'em away by the dozen, huh? They're beating down your door, begging to spend their Friday nights with you and your pals, right? Just like they were falling all over themselves twenty five years ago, wanting to get up in the treehouse with you and your buddies despite the "NO GURLZ ALOWED!!!!" sign you'd made, huh? QFT. That's the funny thing about stereotypes, alot of times, their right. People don't like it, but stereotyping isn't a bad thing. Yes, yes it is. Beyond simply being ignorant, it tends to act as a self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys all it touches. It's not a lack of growing up, it's growing up the right way. Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows. I haven't read this thread. But from this sentence, I'm already sure you're wrong and I don't like you. Everyone has a place in this world, and that place is whatever they bloody want it to be. You don't get to tell other people what their place in the world is. Had to get a stick to beat them off, even then you could keep them away for long. :cool: Statements like this do not make you sound "cool", just FYI. Maybe some males still have the self-confidence to say when they've had enough. Sometimes, you just want to do something with people from your gender and let the females do something else. Some of us get tired of having females around all the time and just want to get away. So, if I say I just want to hang out with my guys, 'm being childish? Yes. "Guys/Girls night out" is one of the stupidest things out culture has invented to date, and our culture has managed to invent some really stupid things. Underlying your argument is the assumption that suddenly having females present would somehow alter the dynamics of the situation merely because there were females present. This is BS. Worse, it is harmful BS because it propegates all sorts of negative beliefs that lead to all sorts of social and individual problems. Who's stereotyping now? You left out one catigory though, those of us who just get tired of females after a bit. Some guys go watch sports, others go to movies, and some of us play RPGs. No difference. You're right, there is no difference. All of those examples are equally bad. I haven't said one bad thing about females in general or in specific. Your entire post has been nothing but implicit degenerations of women veiled in the guise of "seperate but equal". Maybe because females are different. They aren't. They are, in general, more emotional, less rational, and more likely to take offence then remeber it for a long time. None of that is a bad thing, it's just a difference some people are obviously offended by difference, but they aren't going to bea ththose differences out of us. The focus is different with females than it is with males. This is BS. You are simply wrong. I know lots of rational men and women, and I know lots of irrational men and women. Frankly the lot of them seem more irrational than rational, but that's actually, I've found, because I haven't taken the time to try to look at things from their perspective and see how, to them, what is uterrly irrational to me is quite rational. If you think so many women are irrational, I will bet you it is because you've never bothered to try and understand them. The most irrational person I know is in fact male, and he's actually irrational. Like, being of pure chaos irrational. I have absolutely no clue what the heck goes on in his head. Also, you can't make a statement like "women are more emotional than men" without taking into account the fact that if this is true, it is true because society trains them to be that way. Name me one instance in pop literature or TV or whatever when a parent figure has told a girl that grown women don't cry. I bet you can't, yet I could name hundreds for situations like that with boys. This is an example of a stereotype being created and enforced by culture. It has little to nothing to do with the physical differences.
Tordelbach 05-09-07, 05:06 PM	Finding a partner that shares your interests is one of the true blessings you will ever find, and a girl that plays... is a girl to keep around... Just in case she's the one... Amen to that, brother. Met my first gamer girl 20 years ago this month, and after chasing her relentlessly for several years, finally caught her. We're still together today, and along with our son, she's the best thing that ever happened to me. Oh, and by the way: Raoul Torin wrote: ...but stereotyping isn't a bad thing If true, that must makes us all unwashed spotty basement-dwelling dateless satanists with squeaky voices. Maybe that's an accurate picture of you? Stereotyping is at the root of most of the really, really unpleasant things in this world. Including sexist BS.
Mock26 05-09-07, 05:16 PM	Amen to that, brother. Met my first gamer girl 20 years ago this month, and after chasing her relentlessly for several years, finally caught her. We're still together today, and along with our son, she's the best thing that ever happened to me. Was that a grapple check when you caught her? Or did you use a spell? :D
Zyrusticae 05-09-07, 05:57 PM	I'd put up a long, drawn-out post explaining why I feel the way I feel, but I think it's best summed up in a single sentence. Gender has very little to do with anything. There. -Zyrusticae, out.
master_Tru 05-09-07, 06:44 PM	Its too bad this gave you a bad gamming experince for that sesion. But dont judge all female players on the few, I have been gamming for many years now and personaly feel that both sexes have alot to offer to the gamming table. Dont give up on them many are great gammers.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 06:47 PM	Yes, yes it is. Beyond simply being ignorant, it tends to act as a self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys all it touches. Really, because I'm going to bet you stereotype every day. You trust people not to randomly start blowing you away with a shotgun. You've just stereotyped everyone. You don't expect a Muslim to chop off your head whenever you see one, you've stereotyped. When a group of teens wearing baggy pants, hat, drinking, and souting loudly at passerbyers, you avoid them. You've just stereotyped. An old, unshaven man who stinks like urine sit's on the side of the road begging, you assume he's home-less. You've just sterotyped. Everyone stereotypes, some people just don't like to call it that. I can walk up to almost anyone, take a look at them, and then talk with them for hours on topics they enjoy. Guess what, I stereotype people, and generally, I'm right. If I'm right 90% of the time, then I don't see why I should stop making assumptions about people based on what my sences tell me. I haven't read this thread. But from this sentence, I'm already sure you're wrong and I don't like you. Everyone has a place in this world, and that place is whatever they bloody want it to be. You don't get to tell other people what their place in the world is. HamHam man, come on, I'm no that bad of a guy. :P See you've just ruined any point to existing other than just doing what I feel like. I don't get to tell people where they should be, that's personal, but I can tell everyone that they do have a place. We aren't just random coincedences, we have a place in this world. I know places I'm don't fit, like business, and I know places where I can fit very well, like poltics. Trying to force my way into the cubicle world of accounting would be stupid of me, that's not my place. Statements like this do not make you sound "cool", just FYI. Ayyyy :ayyyy!: Yes. "Guys/Girls night out" is one of the stupidest things out culture has invented to date, and our culture has managed to invent some really stupid things. Ok, that's hardly worth commenting on, but no one stoops too low for Raul. Why is that a bad thing? You should have time where you hang out with people like yourself, aways letting everyone in doesn't work well Underlying your argument is the assumption that suddenly having females present would somehow alter the dynamics of the situation merely because there were females present. This is BS. Worse, it is harmful BS because it propegates all sorts of negative beliefs that lead to all sorts of social and individual problems. You honestly believe that nothing changes when females are present? Whether it's cultural or not, males and females are ifferent, when you mix the two the dynamic changes. You can't disbelieve that and truely be successful with females. You're right, there is no difference. All of those examples are equally bad. Thanks, your making my job so much easier. You see, anyone who actually believes that males and females are the same is obviously holding to a fringe belief. One that is completely rediculous. As long as you keep yelling it, I slowly gain the upper ground. Your entire post has been nothing but implicit degenerations of women veiled in the guise of "seperate but equal". I'm a different person, I differ greatly from those I grew up with and I differ greatly with most of the rest of the world. I'm something of an anomaly in some ways, while in others I am perfectly stereotypical. So did I just make a bunch of veiled attacks against myself? No, I just said that I am different like everyone else. Females are different from males, if you can't tell then your blind (or a unich, I'm sorry). Females the Rp are a very small group of females, making them even more different. Males who Rp are different then normal as well, but it's more inline with the male mentality. I urge you to find one point where I said anything degrading about females. They aren't. Sorry, sciences says otherwise. As does every major religion and by far the majority of humanity. This is BS. You are simply wrong. I know lots of rational men and women, and I know lots of irrational men and women. Frankly the lot of them seem more irrational than rational, but that's actually, I've found, because I haven't taken the time to try to look at things from their perspective and see how, to them, what is uterrly irrational to me is quite rational. If you think so many women are irrational, I will bet you it is because you've never bothered to try and understand them. The most irrational person I know is in fact male, and he's actually irrational. Like, being of pure chaos irrational. I have absolutely no clue what the heck goes on in his head. Lol, you missed it. Females are less rational, not irrational. It's a proven fact that females think more with their emotions that their male counterparts. Physically, it's actually hard to cr if your a male then it is if you are a female. I never said that "all females are irrational" or "all males are rational", just males in general are more ratioal then females. What you ae really missing here is that being less rational and more emotional isn't a bad thing. Humans are by nature very emotional, people with more emotioal tendancies are better at understanding that. While those of us who are extremely rational want things to work precisely, reguardless of the feels involved. I try to strike a balance between the two, but, as a male who leans toward rational thought, I do fall farther toward reason then feeling. Also, you can't make a statement like "women are more emotional than men" without taking into account the fact that if this is true, it is true because society trains them to be that way. Name me one instance in pop literature or TV or whatever when a parent figure has told a girl that grown women don't cry. I bet you can't, yet I could name hundreds for situations like that with boys. This is an example of a stereotype being created and enforced by culture. It has little to nothing to do with the physical differences. I know there was one, somewhere. I only remeber because I thought it was really wierd. However, you have just admitted that I am right, females are like a describe them. You think if comes from culture (which, if that were true we'd see different cultures have the reverse trend), I think it comes from physical and mental differences that will always be there. Either way, I'm right, and your just complaining that culture doesn't fit how you want everyone to be. If true, that must makes us all unwashed spotty basement-dwelling dateless satanists with squeaky voices. Maybe that's an accurate picture of you? Stereotyping is at the root of most of the really, really unpleasant things in this world. Including sexist BS. No, it makes your view of us that way. However, that view is obviously wrong. But we all do share some traits. For instance, all role-players have good imaginations. I might be wrong a few times, but you can't Rp for long with out a good imagination, so, in general I'm right. I can also say most of us a white males. Will there be exceptions, yes, but I'm going to be right almost all the time, so my stereotype of imaginitive white males as roleplpayers is pretty accurate. See, your exaplme isn't really like me at all, I'm a clean, Christian with a deep booming voice who never was picked on in school. But, I'm also a white male with a great imagination. So my stereotpe fits me. When I go down to the local gaming store, guess what I see almost all white males who lov to talk about fictiona and stories. You see, your mistake stereotyping to mean treating everyone the same who's in the same group. I stereotypes to give me rough idea of people, then learn more about them as I go. To say you don't do that is lying, everyone stereotypes.
Darth_Sharatec 05-09-07, 07:51 PM	There is such a thing as a gamers code of conduct, generally speaking up on the rule to hurt another player is out side that code. If the GM wants to ignore some rules, then none of the players should be bugging him about it.[---] Just curious, would you care to elaborate on this...? Is this something common in online RPGs (which I am far from familiar with), or do you refer to tabletop RPGs also? Cause if the later, I've never heard of it before, and honestly can't understand it. IMHO, telling a friend that he is breaking the rules is a courtesy, helping him to learn them better. Unless the GM has specifically asked players not to mention such things, it's also a courtesy to said GM, helping him to keep his game fair and balanced (still IMHO ;) ). If the GM approves of changing the rules for the sake of drama, however, that's fine. It's his decision, one that he obviously made in this case - after learning that the player made a mistake.
HamHam 05-09-07, 08:02 PM	Really, because I'm going to bet you stereotype every day. No, your definition of stereotype just sucks. OED to the rescue: A preconceived and oversimplified idea of the characteristics which typify a person, situation, etc.; an attitude based on such a preconception. Also, a person who appears to conform closely to the idea of a type. Essentially, you're confusing generalistion with stereotype. The later has very specific qualities and is a special case of the former. You trust people not to randomly start blowing you away with a shotgun. That's an expectation, like not being hit by a meteor when you go outside. It has nothing to do with stereotypes. When a group of teens wearing baggy pants, hat, drinking, and souting loudly at passerbyers, you avoid them. You've just stereotyped. If you had just stopped at "baggy pants" you might be right, but as soon as the drinking and shouting are involved it's not a stereotype but a direct observation of apparent facts. See you've just ruined any point to existing other than just doing what I feel like. Well, that is the point of existing. I don't get to tell people where they should be, that's personal, but I can tell everyone that they do have a place. Lets take a look at what you said: "Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows." In context, what you're saying is that women are trying to get in your place, where apparently they don't belong. And you apparently know where their place is and isn't. Ok, that's hardly worth commenting on, but no one stoops too low for Raul. Why is that a bad thing? You should have time where you hang out with people like yourself, aways letting everyone in doesn't work well This is true only if by "people like yourself" you mean "people sharing a common interest". In which case, it's not like you need to "not let them in" because they won't want to come in the first place. It boogles the mind to think that people would probably see the obvious problem with a bunch of white people going "hey, tonights all about us white people, so no blacks allowed!" and yet change that to "guys" and "females" and it's suddenly okay. You honestly believe that nothing changes when females are present? Yes. Whether it's cultural or not, males and females are ifferent, when you mix the two the dynamic changes. You can't disbelieve that and truely be successful with females. And your problems continue to build. I don't want to be "successful with females" (whatever the heck that even means). If a girl walks into the room I don't immediatly start thinking how I'm going to score with her or whatever. News Flash: You really can just be friend with a girl. Call me a romantic, but I think that at some point I meet someone where it really will be impossible to just have business as usual, but when that happens I think avoiding them is the last thing on my mind. Thanks, your making my job so much easier. You see, anyone who actually believes that males and females are the same is obviously holding to a fringe belief. Of course it's a fringe belief, because the rest of you saps are not enlightened enough yet to see it. One that is completely rediculous. It's not ridiculious at all. As long as you keep yelling it, I slowly gain the upper ground. You just keep thinking that. Females are different from males, if you can't tell then your blind (or a unich, I'm sorry). I'm about gender like Stephen Colbert is about race. And since it's Stephen Colbert, it can't be wrong. Females the Rp are a very small group of females, making them even more different. Males who Rp are different then normal as well, but it's more inline with the male mentality. That's just BS. I urge you to find one point where I said anything degrading about females. "females have certain tendancies which normally do not lead them to roleplaying." "Because bodily fluids and blood coming out of another person is a beautiful thing. We should put it in lava lamps and place them on our mantle to show females we accept them. " "Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows." "Maybe some males still have the self-confidence to say when they've had enough." "Had to get a stick to beat them off, even then you could keep them away for long." "They are, in general, more emotional, less rational, and more likely to take offence then remeber it for a long time." Sorry, sciences says otherwise. Not any scientists I actually respect. As does every major religion I respect religion, any religion, even less. and by far the majority of humanity. Whose opinion I actually respect even less than the previous two. Amazing. Females are less rational, not irrational. Same thing. It's a proven fact that females think more with their emotions that their male counterparts. I challenge this assertion. Citation please. Physically, it's actually hard to cr if your a male then it is if you are a female. Again, proper citation or I'm just gonna say you're wrong. What you ae really missing here is that being less rational and more emotional isn't a bad thing. Humans are by nature very emotional, people with more emotioal tendancies are better at understanding that. While those of us who are extremely rational want things to work precisely, reguardless of the feels involved. I try to strike a balance between the two, but, as a male who leans toward rational thought, I do fall farther toward reason then feeling. This entire distinction between "reason" and "emotion" is actually pretty faulty. It is not any less rational to properly take emotions into account than to ignore them. In fact, the latter is less rational. The entire dichotomy of reason and emotion is a crappy hold over from... well, it goes all the way back to Plato actually. And frankly this whole thing pretty much torpedos your other argument, because emotions are more important for roleplaying than reason. I know there was one, somewhere. Huh, go figure. However, you have just admitted that I am right, females are like a describe them. You think if comes from culture (which, if that were true we'd see different cultures have the reverse trend), I think it comes from physical and mental differences that will always be there. Either way, I'm right, and your just complaining that culture doesn't fit how you want everyone to be. No, you aren't right. Because it's cultural, it doesn't apply to everyone. Nor is it anywhere as strong a disposition as it would be if it were actually biological. Most importantly, it just involves a bunch of people lying to themselves, which is not something that should be encouraged.
Zyrusticae 05-09-07, 08:35 PM	Since I have some free time on my hands, I think I'll toss my two-and-a-half cents into this little silly, rather off-topic argument we're havin' here. From what I have found, there is very little conclusive analysis to say that 'males are this way, females are that way'. The many studies out there often contradict one another - and do so even more often when the study is international. Concepts of beauty are especially localized, as things that are considered beautiful in one area (re: giant earlobes, anyone?) are most definitely not considered so in other areas. Personally, I believe that many of the past concepts of 'gender roles' are holdovers from back in the day when it was actually necessary for tribes to be segregated in such a manner - someone had to take care of the children while the others went out to gather food, after all. Nowadays, however, the distinction is far less important - a female is just as capable of pursuing pretty much any career path as any male is - and so, I believe that these 'gender role' distinctions should go down the drain with the rest of our more 'primitive' holdovers. Very few of us, after all, still gather, grow, and harvest our own food. I have met all sorts of women - from annoying, excessively perky types that stick pretty close to the stereotype (which I, frankly, completely, utterly, despise), to more demure, quiet types, to women you wouldn't believe are women, and everything in-between. The range is so great, in fact, that I believe it's quite literally impossible to define any great, singular attribute to the whole. I mean, come on, it's a whole friggin' half of humanity we're talking about here! I don't understand why half the people on the planet are relegated to such roles in this day and age, especially in light of our claims of 'enlightenment' and such. And then there's myself. Do I fancy myself a man or a woman? Nah, I'm just me. I may be one thing biologically, but that's all it has to do with anything. My biological sex defines my role in the reproductive cycle, and that's it. Well, that, and it defines what society expects of me as an individual of my perceived gender. And that, I find, is a whole lot more important than the biological side of sex. People will often do stupid things simply because of peer pressure, and the concept of 'gender' is most definitely one of those things. Just think about all the silly, half-assed things people will do because of societal expectations. Dressing themselves in excessive make-up, wearing all black, slitting wrists. Come on. Gimme a break.
Dyne 05-09-07, 09:43 PM	Perhaps some of us like to continue the irony by adding onto it suspicions of a world wide conspiracy by females to make life difficult for males. See, unlike some posters, I just come here to enjoy myself. If someone makes a joke, I'll come back with one. Oh, so you were using sarcasm. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, since feigned ignorance generally gives me the urge to scratch a person's eyes out (as opposed to actual ignorance, which is only irritating). But anyway. Not really, I'm not sayin they try and act just like males, but they do develope some more masculin traits. Compare them to your typical cheerleader or nurse, you'll probably find female RPer o be more manish then them. I find they tend to just act like regular people. I don't see how losing the prissy attitudes of a stereotypical cheerleader makes a female "manish". Now there is a problem, females are actually making you dislike your own gender. Nope, my own gender makes me dislike them. I've discovered that the world is full of stupid people, and too many of those stupid people seem to be males. Somehow, Mausidious is allowed to be all offended by my non-offensive comments (by allowed, I don't mean to ban her) yet at the same time attack males. Females are different from males, if you can't tell then your blind (or a unich, I'm sorry). So much for "non-offensive". :rolleyes:
mausidious 05-09-07, 10:13 PM	Now there is a problem, females are actually making you dislike your own gender. Somehow, Mausidious is allowed to be all offended by my non-offensive comments (by allowed, I don't mean to ban her) yet at the same time attack males. Males, however, are not suppose to fight back, we have to accept it. Sorry, that doesn't fly around me, I'm male and proud of it. The scary part, to my mind, is that you honestly don't think this is offensive: The thing is, you really can't win with females, it took me along time to learn this, but they have way to much going for them. The biggest one, no matter what you do, they can make you feel bad about it. I love female Rpers, but this isn't their hobby. It's like guys who, say, get into doll collecting when they're young or who really really, love home decor, they just strike some of us as different, those are female hobbies, and they have tendancies toward that. And sport, lemme point something else out here.. I wasn't attacking males. I wasn't even attacking you. I was holding out the ultimate silliness of your assertion that RPing isn't a woman's hobby, hoping against hope that you weren't actually saying something so clearly misogynistic. I'd go on, but I need to don my villian suit and go back to headquarters to let the other members of the evil gender know that everything is going according to plan. :rolleye2:
Pink_Jedi_Ranger 05-09-07, 10:44 PM	ShadowWraith player party First the guys. Phil was a tactical sort of player. Malakite was also tactical but so far outside the box that half of us didn't get him Paul - not very tactical. His character was a religious zealot who tended to charge into melee range and force-feed people grenades. Norse Chris was smart ooc but was playing a religious zealot and also charged into melee combat. Unlike Paul, he used proper melee weapons as melee weapons Now the girls. Elaine was great. She much preferred the social and investigative side of things to the slaughter-fests, but she could be bloodthirsty as well (usually when torturing NPCs for information). She wasn't an open-combat sort of character so unless she could snipe from distance, she was in trouble. Kate's problem was that she had a hard time staying awake. She started out really shy but we eventually turned her to the psychotic side of the gaming. Me: I tried my hand at tactical planning but nearly got killed when I forgot my plan in mid encounter and had to wing it. During mass combat, I was usually driving the grav-sled. Slaughtering faceless minions with a pair of flamethrowers was (usually) safer than trying to get into melee past all their guns. The Awakening Snakedude Chris - very good tactical planner, very enthusiastic. Phil - got overshadowed a lot because he was a normal human and the rest of the party weren't. That was kinda my fault really. He left about halfway through the campaign. Malakite (later) - still an amazing player, still off the wall, outside the box, and great fun. Kirk (later) - not much for tactical planning as I recall but still a lot of fun. Owen (later) - good fun although I must admit I didn't let him get away with as much stuff as the others. Sarah - couldn't plan to save her life, but there were times when her simpler approach saved the day. She was the most enthusiastic player. That said, I still threw her out after we had a blazing row then never let her back in. Elaine (later) - she was a lot of fun. Her character was completely insane and she kept us all entertained by doing random things. Ok, not sure what the point of that was. I've never had a problem with anyone that I've roleplayed with in rl... ok, aside from the ShadowWraith GM towards the end, and then the fight with Sarah. It's usually online where the problems start, and in my experience it's immature guys that do all the damage.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-09-07, 11:25 PM	Well, that is the point of existing. Ah, I won't drag us throught the mire of religion, but simply, we are here because God made us to worship him. You don't believe that, fine, your life is meaningless (not that it is, you just believe that). Lets take a look at what you said: "Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows." In context, what you're saying is that women are trying to get in your place, where apparently they don't belong. And you apparently know where their place is and isn't. In contex I said tha everyone has a place in this world, I didn't say that females aren't to RP, I was countering your assertions that everyone can do whatever they want. This is true only if by "people like yourself" you mean "people sharing a common interest". In which case, it's not like you need to "not let them in" because they won't want to come in the first place. It boogles the mind to think that people would probably see the obvious problem with a bunch of white people going "hey, tonights all about us white people, so no blacks allowed!" and yet change that to "guys" and "females" and it's suddenly okay. Umm, don't black people do that all the time? In fact, don't they have specific organizations for themsleves? I'm fine with that, you're aking an assumption though. Your assumption, or belief would be a better word, is that males and females are identical. If that was true, then I would be wrong, but it's not, so I'm not. And your problems continue to build. I don't want to be "successful with females" (whatever the heck that even means). If a girl walks into the room I don't immediatly start thinking how I'm going to score with her or whatever. News Flash: You really can just be friend with a girl. Call me a romantic, but I think that at some point I meet someone where it really will be impossible to just have business as usual, but when that happens I think avoiding them is the last thing on my mind. Have a normal successful relationship with a female will be impossible if you do not realize that they are different. You mightsay you can, but females don't want to be treated like men, they want to be treated differently. Of course it's a fringe belief, because the rest of you saps are not enlightened enough yet to see it. By the "rest of you saps" you do realize your talking about practically every man on the planet, right? In fact, you are basically attacking the male gender as a whole. You just keep thinking that. We will. The simple fact is your thought process cannot survive long since, by it's very nature it is self destructing. The Conservitive view of proper treatment of females and proper division among the sexes produces far more children. Look at France, who has accepted your ideas to a great extent. The native population is dying off and the conservitive Muslim population is rising by almost three time the rate. France will fall to Islam soon enough, mostly because your way of thought cannot stop Conservitive values. We win. That's just BS. What part? The exact definition of "different" is other than the norm, so ionly a small percentage of females RP, theymust be different. Notice, there isn't the same variety among female RPers as there is in the general population, they all share certain traits. Hence, they are different, you cannot possibly refute that with any itellegence. "females have certain tendancies which normally do not lead them to roleplaying." "Because bodily fluids and blood coming out of another person is a beautiful thing. We should put it in lava lamps and place them on our mantle to show females we accept them. " "Some of us believe that everyone has a place in this world, everyone is important. Unfortunatly, some people want to take other peoples place because they don't like their own, and that's where the rift grows." "Maybe some males still have the self-confidence to say when they've had enough." "Had to get a stick to beat them off, even then you could keep them away for long." "They are, in general, more emotional, less rational, and more likely to take offence then remeber it for a long time." How are any of those offencive? Everyone has certain tendancies toward doing things, since not many females Rp, they must be different. THAT'S NOT A BAD THING. The second one wasn't anything near offensive, unless your way to sensitive. It was a comment in responce to someelses comment that we must be childish because we think that's gross. I think urine, especially other peoples, is gross, does that mean I've attacked all of humanity? No, it means I think something is gross. I'm going to step out on a limb here and say most females find their fluids pretty gross as well. Not any scientists I actually respect. I respect religion, any religion, even less. Whose opinion I actually respect even less than the previous two. Amazing. So there's no point in continuing this. I'm obviously right in everything, any normal person should be able to see that. See, you've just declared that just because A. Science, B. Religion, and C. Other People don't agree with you, you don't respect their oinions. I would cite some sources, but no doubt you'd simply say that you don't trust them, or you don't respect them. Honestly, you've just addmitted that you are completely unwilling to learn or grow and are happy believing what you do, no matter how wrong it might be. Same thing. Not at all. I'm far less emotional than my sister, yet I'm not emotion-less. I'm far more rational then her, yet she's not irrational. If you can't tell the difference, then you hae a problem, it's not me (or the rest of the populationfor that matter) This entire distinction between "reason" and "emotion" is actually pretty faulty. It is not any less rational to properly take emotions into account than to ignore them. In fact, the latter is less rational. The entire dichotomy of reason and emotion is a crappy hold over from... well, it goes all the way back to Plato actually. Perhaps it's because people who think with their feelings really are less rational, someone else could be right. Reason might take into account feelings, but feelings do not take into accountreason nor do they take into accout other peoples feelings. It's a pretty big difference, most peple can see that. And frankly this whole thing pretty much torpedos your other argument, because emotions are more important for roleplaying than reason. What other arguement? You mean the one where I was saying that females aren't bad Rpers, but they do act differently, that one? Because I never arged that females made bad role-players. Never. No, you aren't right. Because it's cultural, it doesn't apply to everyone. Nor is it anywhere as strong a disposition as it would be if it were actually biological. Most importantly, it just involves a bunch of people lying to themselves, which is not something that should be encouraged. Name one culture where it's different, I can't think of one. If all people everywhere have the same ideas that I do and my culture does, it probably has less to do with culture and more to do with human nature. However, I am still more than willing to look at any sources you have. I do find it funny that you think that the entier world is lying to themselves and believing a stupid belief. Oh, so you were using sarcasm. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, since feigned ignorance generally gives me the urge to scratch a person's eyes out (as opposed to actual ignorance, which is only irritating). But anyway. I like to have fun here, I don't take it too seriously. My statement was pretty obviously sarcastic, so come on, my eyes are waiting. I find they tend to just act like regular people. I don't see how losing the prissy attitudes of a stereotypical cheerleader makes a female "manish". Intresting concept "regular people" is. Role-players definitely are not in that catigory, so these females aren't just regular, they must be different, because, no one is pefectly regular. Loosing a prissy attitude which is a primarily a female trait don't make them more manish, everything else does though. Nope, my own gender makes me dislike them. I've discovered that the world is full of stupid people, and too many of those stupid people seem to be males. There's your problem man, your just bein' to negitive about yourself. Try looking at all the good things males have done, it'll make you proud again. Males have done the best things this world has seen, and the worst. Females just don't tend to be as "big" as males. So what, it's just a difference. So much for "non-offensive". [QUOTE=Dyne] Ah, see your taking things out of contex. I haven't said anything that attacks females, at least normal ones. However, I have made a couple cracks about the individuals in this thread. Even they weren't mean-spirited, I'm too nice for that sort of thing. My specific comment was that Mausidious and others (you included) have actually gone quite on the attack with males, yet I'm the only one who is accused of being mean here. People who go back and read this thread should see that I have been nothing but friendly and reasonable, yet my opponents have constantly attacked. [QUOTE=mausidious] The scary part, to my mind, is that you honestly don't think this is offensive: Which part was mean, give me one place where I've said something cruel or wrong about females and I'll apologize wholeheartedly. HamHams weak attept at pinning me was too easy, give me something that'll make me go "I said that? Oh my, that''s not what I meant at all". Besides, why is that scary, you can stand up from your computer fully believing that I'm some crackpot way out west. I'm not scary, I;m a very nice male, probably one of the least sexist or racist people you will ever meet. And sport, lemme point something else out here.. I wasn't attacking males. I wasn't even attacking you. I was holding out the ultimate silliness of your assertion that RPing isn't a woman's hobby, hoping against hope that you weren't actually saying something so clearly misogynistic. Where did I make that assertion? It isn't a normal hobby for females, stats all prove that it is moreof a male hobby, just like pro sports. I don't have a problem with females getting involved, I even like having them there since it gives other view points males aren't likely to have. I'm justsaying that things change a bit with females in the room. I'd go on, but I need to don my villian suit and go back to headquarters to let the other members of the evil gender know that everything is going according to plan. We'll stop you, if it takes to the end of the earth, we'll stop you... (That was sarcasm):cool:
Shadowhowler 05-10-07, 12:00 AM	Wow... This thread started as just plain sad and silly (my opinion anyway) and has now become a full blown argument. I don't wanna go through the troubble of quoting everyone, so I'll make a few points and see what happenes. 1. More men game then women, sure. However, this dose not mean they are 'better' at it. Again, in my experince, both as a Storyteller/DM and a player... most of the women players seem to 'get it' better then most of the men players I have gamed with. This is, however, a biased opinion. I am a fan of deep roleplaying, immersion storytelling, and story and roleplay over numbers and rules. I find more women prefer to play this way... and a LOT of guys prefer the 'Powergamer/Min Maxer' path of RPGing. So, naturaly, most of the women I have played with prefering the same sort of game that I do tends to skew me towards thinking they are better players as a whole. 2. I don't buy the theory one guy tossed out that women who are drawn to RPG tend to lsoe their 'Femine' qualities. This has not been my experince. I have played a lot of LARP, a feild of RPG's that seems to draw more intrest from women then table top gaming... and a lot of those ladys were *ALL* woman, let me tell you. :) I met my wife at a LARP rpg... and she is a smart, sexy, very classy lady. I have seen no indication of the women I have gamed with becoming 'less like' women who do not. Some of them were over the top girly girls, like the cheerleader example, and on the other end of the spectrum some were very drvien and athletic and what might be considered 'male minded'... however, a good portion of those were also in the military, so I dunno if that might have more of an impact on the course of their personalities then their hobbie, but I would suspect so. However... those ends of the spectrum are extremes. Most women I have gamed with were just regular, run of the mill, everyday 'women', if there is such a thing. IE: They were 'normal' when comparied to other women I knew that did not game... no noticbale differnces. 3. I think Hamham maybe goes to far in his assertions that there are no differances between men and women. There are basic differances, both biological and cultural. I apricate the sentiment, and agree that women and men are totaly EQUAL in rights and responsabilities... but I belive there are basic differnces between the sexes... and you do them a diservice by not being aware of them. I belive their are differnces between men and women, and I am thankfull for them! I LOVE women! When an attricative girl walsk in the room, I do feel differntly about her then I do when a attarctive guy walks in the room, thats just a fact. Of course you can be just friends with a woman... of course its possible. It's a lot easier if you are not attaracted to her tho. However, I'll say it's become a LOT easier to just be friends with a woman I am attaracted too since I have been married. Knowing nothing romanticly will ever come of it makes it simple to just have a normal relationship. However, there are still diffrences. And, I think, it's a good thing. Anyway... my 2 cents. I'll now return you to your regularly schedualed ranting, allready in progress. :)
HamHam 05-10-07, 12:17 AM	Ah, I won't drag us throught the mire of religion, but simply, we are here because God made us to worship him. You don't believe that, fine, your life is meaningless (not that it is, you just believe that). Then don't bring it up. I do however have a rejoinder: "If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself." -Alpha Centauri In contex I said tha everyone has a place in this world, I didn't say that females aren't to RP, I was countering your assertions that everyone can do whatever they want. They can, if they're willing to do the work needed to get there. Umm, don't black people do that all the time? In fact, don't they have specific organizations for themsleves? I'm fairly sure most of you can still join even if you aren't black, if you really want to for some reason. But if they did, it would also be stupid. Have a normal successful relationship with a female will be impossible if you do not realize that they are different. You mightsay you can, but females don't want to be treated like men, they want to be treated differently. I... have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I have plenty of succesful relationships with female friends. I don't treat any of them any different than I do my male friends. So you must obviously be wrong. By the "rest of you saps" you do realize your talking about practically every man on the planet, right? In fact, you are basically attacking the male gender as a whole. Actually, I'm talking about practically every human on the planet, because far too many women buy into the same sexist bs than men do. We will. The simple fact is your thought process cannot survive long since, by it's very nature it is self destructing. The Conservitive view of proper treatment of females and proper division among the sexes produces far more children. Look at France, who has accepted your ideas to a great extent. The native population is dying off and the conservitive Muslim population is rising by almost three time the rate. France will fall to Islam soon enough, mostly because your way of thought cannot stop Conservitive values. We win. This... argument? Does this even count as an argument? It's so ridiculious I'm at a loss on how to respond. Could someone help me out? What part? "it's more inline with the male mentality" How are any of those offencive? If you can't tell, that's your problem. Everyone has certain tendancies toward doing things, since not many females Rp, they must be different. That's putting the cart before the horse. There are plenty of reasons why more men are into RPing at the moment than women. The most obvious is a series of historical confluences, forces, and accidents; not some percieved "differences". The second one wasn't anything near offensive, unless your way to sensitive. This: "We should put it in lava lamps and place them on our mantle to show females we accept them." is condescending. So there's no point in continuing this. I'm obviously right in everything, any normal person should be able to see that. See, you've just declared that just because A. Science, B. Religion, and C. Other People don't agree with you, you don't respect their oinions. No, I said that since I don't respect them to begin with, I don't really care about their opinions. I have far more respect for other people, including some scientists, artists, authors, etc and they tend to agree that any difference in gender is a difference that makes no difference. The science on your side of the field is a bunch of crazy sociobiologists, evolutionary sociologists, and the like who come up with so much crazy stuff all the time that their credibility is only slightly above that of creatonists and ID people. Not at all. I'm far less emotional than my sister, yet I'm not emotion-less. I'm far more rational then her, yet she's not irrational. If you can't tell the difference, then you hae a problem, it's not me (or the rest of the populationfor that matter) Look, my point doesn't change no matter how you word it. feelings do not take into accountreason nor do they take into accout other peoples feelings. Yes they do. Most of the time, you don't just get emotions out of nowhere, there are good reasons for why you feel the way you do. And then there's that little thing called empathy. What other arguement? You mean the one where I was saying that females aren't bad Rpers, but they do act differently, that one? Because I never arged that females made bad role-players. Never. "[RP] is more inline with the male mentality" "I love female Rpers, but this isn't their hobby. It's like guys who, say, get into doll collecting when they're young or who really really, love home decor, they just strike some of us as different, those are female hobbies, and they have tendancies toward that." Do I need to fine more, or is your foot properly in your mouth yet? Name one culture where it's different, I can't think of one. I can't, but I bet if we found an anthroplogist he could. Looking around, the west pretty much has inhereted the same culture, so it's not surprising the differences between the various descendants of Rome and Christianity are minor. Looking at Wikipedia, Native Americans apparently had some what more flexibility in gender roles, though it's rather vague. I don't know enough about African culture to really say (and it's probably too diverse to make generalizations about anyway). East Asia seems to be more or less the same as here, but once you actually look closer it seems to me that their gender role problems are actually differnet than ours, though in the same general mold. If all people everywhere have the same ideas that I do and my culture does, it probably has less to do with culture and more to do with human nature. Actually I believe some of it comes from early tribal social evolution, where the system we have inherited did make a decent amount of practical sense. But we've out grown it. I do find it funny that you think that the entier world is lying to themselves and believing a stupid belief. [snarky comment]Most of the world believes in God don't they.[/snarky comment] 3. I think Hamham maybe goes to far in his assertions that there are no differances between men and women. There are basic differances, both biological and cultural. I apricate the sentiment, and agree that women and men are totaly EQUAL in rights and responsabilities... but I belive there are basic differnces between the sexes... and you do them a diservice by not being aware of them. Two things: 1) What I'm saying is more along the lines of "differences that make no difference". 2) At this point I don't think we're at a place where we can admit differences without losing ground to the side that wants to go back to stay at home housewives and what not. Essentially, it's not politically viable. In the future, once the main fight has been won, we might be able to work toward a more precise and fine-grained view but right now it just gets in the way of the important issues. I belive their are differnces between men and women, and I am thankfull for them! I LOVE women! When an attricative girl walsk in the room, I do feel differntly about her then I do when a attarctive guy walks in the room, thats just a fact. Well I don't. And I think it makes me happier in the long run. Edit: One last thing before I call it a night: Let's not fool ourselves here. The whole men/women RPing thing is the least of the problems here. The simple fact is that gender stereotypes cause all sorts of real world problems ranging from unequal pay between men and women to America's rather serious problems with rape. This is a serious issue.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-10-07, 01:52 AM	Then don't bring it up. I do however have a rejoinder: "If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself." -Alpha Centauri Which is insane. Follow that line of reasoning for a bit. If my only purpose is to enjoy myself, no matter what I do you cannot call me bad. I'm just as good or bad as anyone else. No culture could survive such reaoning as it is the heart of anarchy. If that's what you believe, then your also taking quite the massive leap in logic, you have just declared this life to be "it". The be all and end all of your existence. Something that has hardly been considered and is completely illogical. They can, if they're willing to do the work needed to get there. Nope, a cripple is never going to play pro-ball. Nor is blind man every going to beat be in an fencing match. In no way is a deaf person ever goin to be able to be a music critic. Those people have a different place in this world, and it's foolish for them to try and escape it. I'm fairly sure most of you can still join even if you aren't black, if you really want to for some reason. But if they did, it would also be stupid. Well, at least you're not holding a double standard. I'm being serious here, that's something I really like about you. I... have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I have plenty of succesful relationships with female friends. I don't treat any of them any different than I do my male friends. So you must obviously be wrong. Or you treat your male friends kind of off. Act normal, slap 'em on the rear, lean on them, tell those really horrible dirty jokes you know. You'll find out the females take things differently then males pretty fast. Actually, I'm talking about practically every human on the planet, because far too many women buy into the same sexist bs than men do. Thank you, you've saved me from having to point out how crazy you are by saying it quite loudly. This... argument? Does this even count as an argument? It's so ridiculious I'm at a loss on how to respond. Could someone help me out? It wasn't an arguement, it was a statement. It's not even close to on topic, I'm just saying that us conservitives 'll win, you just have to give it some time. "it's more inline with the male mentality" If that's the offisive part, then you need to thicken up a bit. Just to irk you, basket ball is a more male sport, we are built far better for it. Same with Football. Was that mean of me to say? No, it's a fact. Just like saying I'll never win a medal for long distance running isn't offensive, it's just truth. That's putting the cart before the horse. There are plenty of reasons why more men are into RPing at the moment than women. The most obvious is a series of historical confluences, forces, and accidents; not some percieved "differences". Or maybe females don't like Rpng as much. If you really had an arguement here, I'd listen, but you don't. All you are sayng is that there is "plenty of reasons" why not. What group does RPGs target? Males, it's why there is constantly pictures of females on the covers of books, they draw the male eye. This is not because RPG producers just decided to target males, it is because males are more likely to play. This: "We should put it in lava lamps and place them on our mantle to show females we accept them." is condescending. I was making a point, and yes, I was condensending, that's not offensive. Normal people find that as gross as I do, and they'll find that funny. Most females should go, "yeah, the original poster said somethingreally stupid, Raul was sarcastic in return" not "Oh my, he's attack my sex" because I'm not. If that offends you, then I'm sorry, don't get into these debates. No, I said that since I don't respect them to begin with, I don't really care about their opinions. I have far more respect for other people, including some scientists, artists, authors, etc and they tend to agree that any difference in gender is a difference that makes no difference. The science on your side of the field is a bunch of crazy sociobiologists, evolutionary sociologists, and the like who come up with so much crazy stuff all the time that their credibility is only slightly above that of creatonists and ID people. You only listen to scientist who you agree with, hence you have scientific backing for your ideas, You do realize how mad you sound right now. Some people might stick up for your cause, but you have essentially said that, despite what anyone else tells you, you are going to believe what your own little cult believes. How in the world is that helping you, or even better, why do you think you are better than conservitive Christians because they follow a dogmatic belief system? Because we've got alot of science to back us up, so do the evolutionist, so the debate continues. Look, my point doesn't change no matter how you word it. You haven't really had a point. All you've done is say you're going to believe what you believe no matter what. You have yet to give an intellegent thought. This is a prime example, you just said that irational and less-rational are the same thing. That is obviously rediculous, yet you won't change, your point was insane, I tried to clarify what you meant by giving you a clear guide as to the different between the two, and yet you stuck to your guns. Yes they do. Most of the time, you don't just get emotions out of nowhere, there are good reasons for why you feel the way you do. And then there's that little thing called empathy. Feelings are inhenantly selfish. Reason is as well. As flawed beings that is how things are. A rational though wouldbe to put people together who work well ogether and who are known to like eachother. An emotional responce would be to let everyone pick who they work with. Both will come out roughly the same, but the first is more orderly. In the same way, a rational way to reach people with the gospel is to convince them of their faults an expect them t follow your logic. A more emotional way would be to make friends with people and just trust them to make the right choice eventually. Either way will work some of the time, nbiether will work all ofte time, but both are needed for any operation to be successful. "[RP] is more inline with the male mentality" "I love female Rpers, but this isn't their hobby. It's like guys who, say, get into doll collecting when they're young or who really really, love home decor, they just strike some of us as different, those are female hobbies, and they have tendancies toward that." Do I need to fine more, or is your foot properly in your mouth yet? Where was I mean to female players? Never, I have said constantly that I have no problem with them and love having them at the table. Nowhere have I said they were bad Rpers, or boring to play with. What I have said is that you have to play differently with them around, it changes the dynamics of play. The second quote there is not wa you are making it out to be. Would you say that a guy getting involved in home decor is odd? Well, you might not but most of us think it's a bit different. The same thing goes for females, one who plays RPGs is looked on as a bit odd. We all have tendancies toward things, RPGs are more of a male tendancy, so anyfemale who gets involved is showing a slightly more manish tendancy. Simple logic will tell you that. It's not a big issue. I basically said that females Rping is a bit more abnormal then males. That's is undeniably true. I can't, but I bet if we found an anthroplogist he could. Looking around, the west pretty much has inhereted the same culture, so it's not surprising the differences between the various descendants of Rome and Christianity are minor. Looking at Wikipedia, Native Americans apparently had some what more flexibility in gender roles, though it's rather vague. I don't know enough about African culture to really say (and it's probably too diverse to make generalizations about anyway). East Asia seems to be more or less the same as here, but once you actually look closer it seems to me that their gender role problems are actually differnet than ours, though in the same general mold. So, by your own admittion human culture has been relitively uniform when dealing with the male female relationship. The reason is that males and females are different. Another great example of this is the military. Do you know why females aren't allowed in combat roles? Because, when placed in the field males naturally feel the need to protect them. It's overriding, and causes males to do stupid things to protect females from a percieved threat. females, however, do not have that tendancy, showing once again that males and females are different. Actually I believe some of it comes from early tribal social evolution, where the system we have inherited did make a decent amount of practical sense. But we've out grown it. Why would that develope the same way around the globe? Because males are more suited to certain roles than females, just as females are more suited to certain roles then males. [snarky comment]Most of the world believes in God don't they.[/snarky comment] Am I to assume that you believe that is foolish? There is no logical reason not to believe in God, even if I'm wrong, I turn out way better than you. 1) What I'm saying is more along the lines of "differences that make no difference". A logical fallacy. You have essentially said that that word means nothing since, whenever you say it, you are also saying its opposite. However, if you break that down you are saying that females and males are different (my point) yet that doesn't matter. So, the core of who we are doesn't matter, intresting perspective 2) At this point I don't think we're at a place where we can admit differences without losing ground to the side that wants to go back to stay at home housewives and what not. Essentially, it's not politically viable. In the future, once the main fight has been won, we might be able to work toward a more precise and fine-grained view but right now it just gets in the way of the important issues. So you have adopted a fanatical extremist belief that you don't hold so you can change society more. Have I got it? You're saying (in addition to your admition that you will ignore any contrary evidence) that you absolutely cannot back down or accept anything less than your extreme because it will be giving us a win. Well, now that we've hit the main pont, I might as well deal the final blow, you can't argue with me any more. You've just openly admitted that you A. do not believe what you are say, B. it absolutely doesn't matter what anyone else says, your not changing, C. you feel you can never be anything less than extreme because that might be a percieved win on my side, and D. that you are more than happy to fight to destroy an idea you don't nnderstand and will never learn about. Please, have I been wrong anywhere in this last bit? So, for everyone else out there, can you see what HamHam represents? A total shift of all your ideas to exactly what he wants them to be, anything less and your an outcast from his ideal society. I'm almost finished here.
Demigonis 05-10-07, 02:16 AM	I'm almost finished here. Actually, I think you finished a couple pages ago. No offense, but I'd be shocked if anyone wanted to read any more of this. Yourself included.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-10-07, 02:42 AM	Actually, I think you finished a couple pages ago. No offense, but I'd be shocked if anyone wanted to read any more of this. Yourself included. You didn't enjoy this? I guess not all people enjoy this stuff like I do. Anyways, I had a good time, I don't know about the rest of you, but I loved it. :D Ham admitting all that has kindof ruined it though. This could have gone on for another four pages if we wanted it too.
sin shai, nagai jedi 05-10-07, 03:43 AM	yeah, from what i just read, you seem to be the one with a problem, i'd have done the same thing in her place, the rules are made for a reason, and ignoreing them is not one of them, and calling it a tacticle error to point out the rules just shows your a cheater. you also mentioned that a woman left a group of yours because of you and the GM, which leads me to believe you might just bring all this onto yourselves. Those "hurtful words" where said for a reason, which wasn't "because she was a woman" if you were wondering. and yes, lectureing people isn't a good idea when theyre drunk. And insulting them is even worse. oh, and drop the psychology class, you may be passing but your just copying text from a book onto paper, you dont seem to understand any of it.
Tordelbach 05-10-07, 04:22 AM	Ra'ul wrote: So my stereotpe fits me. My friend, you don't get to choose "your stereotype" - others do that for you, that's the bloody problem. You're a gamer - your stereotype (and mine) is as I outlined, a smelly unpopular paunchy troglodyte with Spock ears and a tendency to shout "I thwack the Orc with my +3 Elven Sword of Smiting!" at inappropriate moments. You don't conform to that stereotype. Nor do I. Nor do most of us. But that's what the casual observer assumes you are like, based on their stereotpye of gamers. Hertz, donut? A bit like being told that you are overly emotional and irrational because you are female.
Ra'ul_Tor'in 05-10-07, 04:50 AM	My friend, you don't get to choose "your stereotype" - others do that for you, that's the bloody problem. Hmm, intresting POV. I can choose what stereotype I fit into to an extent. For instance, I could very easily have been a "jock" type in highschool. Cheerleaders loved me, and I was very good at most sports. So, I can choose my stereotype by choosing what I do. I can even change my physical stereotype quite a bit. So, I really can change my stereotype. Why is that? Because a stereotype applies to certain types or groups of people, not to a person themselves. This is why you shouldn't get offended at stereotypes, all they are is a general guide to the average member of a group. You're a gamer - your stereotype (and mine) is as I outlined, a smelly unpopular paunchy troglodyte with Spock ears and a tendency to shout "I thwack the Orc with my +3 Elven Sword of Smiting!" at inappropriate moments. You don't conform to that stereotype. Nor do I. Nor do most of us. But that's what the casual observer assumes you are like, based on their stereotpye of gamers. Hertz, donut? A bit like being told that you are overly emotional and irrational because you are female. A sonic donut? Nah, I don't eat donuts. :D See, here's the thing, a stereotype that doesn't fit the group it's assigned to is not a stereotype, it's just a bad assumption. The word means roughly all the same, or every one in a group is the same. It's an assumption we all make about people. Your description of a stereotypical gamer doesn't fit the mold, white, imagninitive males does. So, my stereotype of gamers is normally right, why should anyone be offended by that? The only reason to be is that you don't like the group you're being assigned to, at least as far as I'm know. Easy one, the more wealth a person has, the nicer car he will drive. This is mostly true, although there are people who put a much large portion of their income into their car and will now appear to have more wealth. Some people like a certain car and drive it around even though it is far beneeth their status level. While all those are possible, I can generally assume someones levelof wealth by their car. Same goes with houses or lawns or clothes. Now, why should anyone be offended when I guess their wealth by their car. I don't know you, my oppinions shouldn't be high on your list of self worth checks, so why does it matter that I guess your annual gross four thousand below what I should have? So, why in the world would I care if the typical person who knows I'm a role-players think all those things about me? I don't, apparently that person has the wrong view of role-players since the statistics don't bear him out. If I were actually part of a group who were 90% as you say, then I couldn't blame him for thinking that, I wouldn't fit, but I don't care. If I had ben more of a "jock" type, I wold have fit in even better, but I wouldn't have ever been offended if someone came up to me assuming I was going to know every little detail of my sport.
Tordelbach 05-10-07, 07:18 AM	So, why in the world would I care if the typical person who knows I'm a role-players think all those things about me? You should care when people start acting on the basis of the their prejudicial misapprehension - such as refusing you a front-of-house job because you are a nerd with no people skills, or interpreting your actions in an online RPG as having their origin in your gender, or assuming you're a criminal because of your country of origin. Stereotypes that live solely in people's heads are a sometime-useful shorthand for navigating a complex social world, but they become a problem when they are used as the basis for making real-world decisions, instead of basing decisions on direct observations of a individual's apparent character and abilities. I can choose what stereotype I fit into to an extent. To an extent, you can choose your identity, and how you want to display it, but other people will choose what stereotype they see you as part of. For example, on the basis of the almost-nothing I know about you, I could choose to lump you in with Classic European Stereotype No. 1: Boorish Blowhard Imperialist Yank. Nothing you can do about it - as far as many Europeans are concerned, ALL Amercians fit this stereotype (even Noam Chomsky). Except of course they don't, certainly hardly any I've met, either in the US or abroad. Tell me, did you choose to be stereotyped in this way? Do you like it? Is it helpful to either of us?
Zyrusticae 05-10-07, 07:52 AM	Which is insane. Follow that line of reasoning for a bit. If my only purpose is to enjoy myself, no matter what I do you cannot call me bad. I'm just as good or bad as anyone else. No culture could survive such reaoning as it is the heart of anarchy. If that's what you believe, then your also taking quite the massive leap in logic, you have just declared this life to be "it". The be all and end all of your existence. Something that has hardly been considered and is completely illogical. Actually, frankly, as far as I'm concerned, life doesn't have a meaning. Think of all the 'meanings' people have come up with for living. They're all man-made, and you wonder why? Life has to make up its own meaning for existing. There is no 'super-being' or 'God' that's going to go right out and tell you, "this is why you should live". It's just, "I live, so... I'll make up my own reasons!" No matter how much you may not like the thought, it's just how it is. If one's meaning for life is just to enjoy oneself, well, if one enjoys doing cruel things, then of course there are going to be repercussions. The 'meaning' will not necessary limit your behaviors, which, while perhaps distasteful to you, is really dependent on the one making the decision more than anything else. Anyone with half a brain would understand how their activities are hurting their 'tribe', and would refrain from anything that does so. It's simple instinct. Raping or killing tribesfolk (yes, I daresay humanity still is rather tribal) would be antithetic to the survival of the species. Nope, a cripple is never going to play pro-ball. Nor is blind man every going to beat be in an fencing match. In no way is a deaf person ever goin to be able to be a music critic. Those people have a different place in this world, and it's foolish for them to try and escape it. I'm at a loss here. Are you equating being female roughly to being disabled in some way? It's not explicitly stated, but the fact that you brought this up definitely has some rather... disturbing implications. Being disabled definitely has absolutely nothing to do with the argument here. The argument is that 'male or female, you can do whatever you want if you work hard enough at it', which, for the most part, is pretty much true. Except that many societies today are still pretty misogynistic. I have always wondered why we have never had a non-white, non-male president in the United States... Or you treat your male friends kind of off. Act normal, slap 'em on the rear, lean on them, tell those really horrible dirty jokes you know. You'll find out the females take things differently then males pretty fast. That's absolutely disgusting. You treat their sex as an excuse to treat them like objects of desire? I have never treated my female friends in such a manner, and they definitely like me better the way I am. Wouldn't suffer me hitting on them in such a crude manner for a second. For that matter, many of these reactions are indeed, set by society. In other societies it is normal to kiss someone on the lips as a greeting. As a greeting - your normal, everyday greeting. I'm sure it's a stretch to say that 'all males are going to react this way' when it's such a cultural thing in the first place. We will. The simple fact is your thought process cannot survive long since, by it's very nature it is self destructing. The Conservitive view of proper treatment of females and proper division among the sexes produces far more children. Look at France, who has accepted your ideas to a great extent. The native population is dying off and the conservitive Muslim population is rising by almost three time the rate. France will fall to Islam soon enough, mostly because your way of thought cannot stop Conservitive values. We win. Now this, I find absolutely disgusting. I'm sorry, but... why? You produce more unnecessary, money-sucking babies when the world is already quickly becoming over-populated - and you say it's a good thing?! Someone remind me what the limit on the Earth's world population was, because I'm sure that it'll be men like this that'll end up breaching it and sending us all spiraling to starvation and world hunger. ...Then start up some more religious wars and kill off half the human populace for some sick abstract values to end the world hunger. ...Yeah, I hope you all die off soon. If that's the offisive part, then you need to thicken up a bit. Just to irk you, basket ball is a more male sport, we are built far better for it. Same with Football. Was that mean of me to say? No, it's a fact. Just like saying I'll never win a medal for long distance running isn't offensive, it's just truth. Excuse me? Do you honestly believe this? Have you ever watched a man face off against a woman basketball player - have you ever seen just how insignificant the differences actually are? They could be in the same league and still play just fine. The only reason you say that now is because of how misogynistic our society has been for so very long. Or maybe females don't like Rpng as much. If you really had an arguement here, I'd listen, but you don't. All you are sayng is that there is "plenty of reasons" why not. What group does RPGs target? Males, it's why there is constantly pictures of females on the covers of books, they draw the male eye. This is not because RPG producers just decided to target males, it is because males are more likely to play. Why are males more likely to play? Because society, apparently, says that males are more willing to play such games in the first place. It's really a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Males like to play these games, so we'll market it out to male gamers because their market share is greater." That's all there is to it. I'm sure the reverse would be true if people believed that "Females like to play these games, so we'll market it out to female gamers". It's a societal thing. I was making a point, and yes, I was condensending, that's not offensive. Normal people find that as gross as I do, and they'll find that funny. Most females should go, "yeah, the original poster said somethingreally stupid, Raul was sarcastic in return" not "Oh my, he's attack my sex" because I'm not. If that offends you, then I'm sorry, don't get into these debates. No comment. You only listen to scientist who you agree with, hence you have scientific backing for your ideas, You do realize how mad you sound right now. Some people might stick up for your cause, but you have essentially said that, despite what anyone else tells you, you are going to believe what your own little cult believes. How in the world is that helping you, or even better, why do you think you are better than conservitive Christians because they follow a dogmatic belief system? Because we've got alot of science to back us up, so do the evolutionist, so the debate continues. See, this is the problem. Some of the so-called 'science' that dogmatic religions use to back up their ideals are often, in fact, not science. They don't follow the scientific method, and more often than not, they'll make up evidence to suit their needs just fine. And yes, of course we're going to be listening to scientists that back up our viewpoints. However, we're not necessarily going to take it on blind faith, either. Which is something religious people do pretty damned often. Faith does not have to be blind. You haven't really had a point. All you've done is say you're going to believe what you believe no matter what. You have yet to give an intelligent thought. This is a prime example, you just said that irrational and less-rational are the same thing. That is obviously ridiculous, yet you won't change, your point was insane, I tried to clarify what you meant by giving you a clear guide as to the different between the two, and yet you stuck to your guns. (Spelling corrected) Hah. In this case, you're deciding what you consider an 'intelligent' thought, so that argument really means nothing to me. Either way, I don't care for this part. I would never have pointed out that there was 'no difference' between irrational and 'less rational', although, frankly, you're going to get the same reaction from me whether or not you called me either one. Which is what he was referring to in the first place - the social reaction to being referred to in such a manner, not its actual dictionary definition. Feelings are inhenantly selfish. Reason is as well. As flawed beings that is how things are. A rational though wouldbe to put people together who work well ogether and who are known to like eachother. An emotional responce would be to let everyone pick who they work with. Both will come out roughly the same, but the first is more orderly. In the same way, a rational way to reach people with the gospel is to convince them of their faults an expect them t follow your logic. A more emotional way would be to make friends with people and just trust them to make the right choice eventually. Either way will work some of the time, nbiether will work all ofte time, but both are needed for any operation to be successful. I'll ignore the urge to do some spell checking here... Frankly, I find this despicable. The "Right Choice"? Who decides what is the "right choice"? Obviously, it's human beings. Am I going to follow what another human being defines as 'the right choice'? Hell no. And I, most certainly, will not follow a flawed belief system (which, as you say, is flawed simply because it was defined by man) simply because my friends are in with it. But of course, I'm notorious for ignoring peer pressures and going it my own way. Where was I mean to female players? Never, I have said constantly that I have no problem with them and love having them at the table. Nowhere have I said they were bad Rpers, or boring to play with. What I have said is that you have to play differently with them around, it changes the dynamics of play. The second quote there is not wa you are making it out to be. Would you say that a guy getting involved in home decor is odd? Well, you might not but most of us think it's a bit different. The same thing goes for females, one who plays RPGs is looked on as a bit odd. We all have tendancies toward things, RPGs are more of a male tendancy, so anyfemale who gets involved is showing a slightly more manish tendancy. Simple logic will tell you that. It's not a big issue. I basically said that females Rping is a bit more abnormal then males. That's is undeniably true. That's really ridiculous. First of all, this talk about it being looked on as 'odd' is simply a personal thing. I find nothing odd at all about a female who plays games. You find it odd because it's ingrained into your mind that females do not play such things. Similarly, it's ingrained into your mind that males do not play with dollies. Probably ingrained into your mind while you were being raised. I was not raised with such principles. I played with girls all the time when I was young, did I treat them any differently? Hah. Why would I? There are no pheromones flying through the air to cloud my judgement, and the subject of their genitalia has absolutely no effect on my ability to socialize with them. Even to this day, in fact, it doesn't. Whether or not something is 'masculine' or 'feminine' is a purely society-defined trait. You just happen to deal with it rather poorly. So, by your own admittion human culture has been relitively uniform when dealing with the male female relationship. The reason is that males and females are different. Another great example of this is the military. Do you know why females aren't allowed in combat roles? Because, when placed in the field males naturally feel the need to protect them. It's overriding, and causes males to do stupid things to protect females from a percieved threat. females, however, do not have that tendancy, showing once again that males and females are different. Many of these differences are, in fact, holdovers from a tribal society in which it was necessary for these things to happen. The fact that they still exist is a testament to how slowly humans change, and how quickly our technology advanced beyond ourselves. It'll go away over time, trust me. Why would that develope the same way around the globe? Because males are more suited to certain roles than females, just as females are more suited to certain roles then males. Which used to be true. Thankfully, in the modern world, these distinctions are far less important. Am I to assume that you believe that is foolish? There is no logical reason not to believe in God, even if I'm wrong, I turn out way better than you. Excuse me? I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying you'll turn out way better than the non-believers, or are you saying there's no logical reason that'd be true? I'd be more respectful if it was the latter, and not the former. A logical fallacy. You have essentially said that that word means nothing since, whenever you say it, you are also saying its opposite. However, if you break that down you are saying that females and males are different (my point) yet that doesn't matter. So, the core of who we are doesn't matter, intresting perspective The 'core' of who we are? So being male or female defines the core of our being? Oh, man. This is rich. I won't even bother with this one. If you can't figure it out for yourself, you're stuck either way. So you have adopted a fanatical extremist belief that you don't hold so you can change society more. Have I got it? You're saying (in addition to your admition that you will ignore any contrary evidence) that you absolutely cannot back down or accept anything less than your extreme because it will be giving us a win. Well, now that we've hit the main pont, I might as well deal the final blow, you can't argue with me any more. You've just openly admitted that you A. do not believe what you are say, B. it absolutely doesn't matter what anyone else says, your not changing, C. you feel you can never be anything less than extreme because that might be a percieved win on my side, and D. that you are more than happy to fight to destroy an idea you don't nnderstand and will never learn about. Please, have I been wrong anywhere in this last bit? I'm sure it would appear to be an extremist view to someone who's been raised on the ideal that men are inherently, completely, utterly different from women. Thankfully, some of us had the luxury of independent thought and the opportunity to acquaint ourselves with more interesting members of the opposite sex. Also, A. I don't see where you're getting this from. B. Of course not, just as you won't change no matter what we say. It's the nature of a good debate, after all. C. Again, extreme only to yourself. You're an extremist, too, you know - it's just an extreme view vouched for by your particular sect of society. D. Who are you to say we know nothing? I understand perfectly where you're coming from, and I simply reject that ideal. That's really all there is to it. I fight to change it because it's wrong, in my mind. So, for everyone else out there, can you see what HamHam represents? A total shift of all your ideas to exactly what he wants them to be, anything less and your an outcast from his ideal society. Hah. You extrapolated that from his posts? Everyone else, an 'outcast' from his ideal society? With startling revelations like that, it's no wonder you believe the things you do.
Lord_Ball 05-10-07, 08:52 AM	Advice, mainly. Answers, possibly. I'd like to set things right, if possible. There are some things you need to take into consideration. First the "Rules-Lawyering" is done in the advent of fair gameplay. Second she is playing the only non-force user in the party (since the Scoundrel is NPC'd it doesn't count) - hence the reason she feels "overshadowed", regardless of how good her character is, Star Wars is very Force-centric. Third without knowing your character it seems your actions were in-fact out of character, and thus if you did not tell your party your plan it could have been perceived as an act of aggression, indicating to the others that they should fight. Forth The time the party has spent adventuring together does lead to loyalties, and perhaps she was not willing to let you "sacrifice" your character in order to save them. Fifth (touching back on #2) when you claimed the fight could not be won, it could have, and probably was, perceived as a challange, which if successful, would certainly make the Noble feel less overshadowed.
Jedi_Dade 05-10-07, 10:11 AM	I can't beleive this thread has not been locked yet... 1) For the record I Love women. 2) Women RPG'rs are no more or less skilled then men. 3) the Original intent of this thread was a cry for help from a man who doesn't get women in general and has a bit of maturing to do as a gamer - how this degenereated into male vs. female I understand having read the thread, but am amazed that its still going... 4) Peace! Its all good - all gamers welcome - regardless of race, creed, religion, or gender! Jedi Dade
Yak of Darkness 05-10-07, 01:29 PM	Moved to Star Wars, huh? Well, I guess the OP's actual problem had as much to do with Star Wars as it does with gender. That said, that's not saying much. :P I can't beleive this thread has not been locked yet... Oh come now, if the thread had been locked back when it was obviously pointless, we wouldn't have gotten comedy gold like this: Ah, I won't drag us throught the mire of religion, but simply, we are here because God made us to worship him. You don't believe that, fine, your life is meaningless (not that it is, you just believe that). SD threw out a good first shot at the "strikingly ignorant and offensive lack of understanding" award for his thoughts on female gamers in the OP. Count Arioch rebutted by sundering the illusion I had that his whole "wimmin belong in the kitchen, not the gaming table" bit was just a put-on act (and, honestly, it's kinda sad to hear that from a poster I respected). But you, Ra'ul, have come to claim the gold at the end with this strikingly ignorant and offensive shot at people without faith (or even people who don't share your specific faith). You get bonus points for bringing the topic up completely out of freaking nowhere. Some might think it's crass to jump into the middle of a (already not-going-well) discussion and shoehorn your religion into it in a hamfisted manner, but not you, Ra'ul. Congratulations. :clap:
HamHam 05-10-07, 02:29 PM	Zyrusticae already gave an awesome response, but I guess I should throw in as well. I'm going to avoid responding to certain things, because it goes way beyond the CoC line, but I will be addressing them via PM later on. Which is insane. Follow that line of reasoning for a bit. If my only purpose is to enjoy myself, no matter what I do you cannot call me bad. I'm just as good or bad as anyone else. No culture could survive such reaoning as it is the heart of anarchy. Wrong. I don't need to call you bad in some absolutist sense to throw you in jail, scorn you, or use any of the many methods we have for maintaining social order. The practical purposes of protecting society are enough. If that's what you believe, then your also taking quite the massive leap in logic, you have just declared this life to be "it". Yes. The be all and end all of your existence. Something that has hardly been considered and is completely illogical. Actually, it's the only logical position. Nope, a cripple is never going to play pro-ball. Nor is blind man every going to beat be in an fencing match. In no way is a deaf person ever goin to be able to be a music critic. Those people have a different place in this world, and it's foolish for them to try and escape it. If said cripple were to say, become an engineer, and develop new and better prosthetics that would perform just as well as the real thing, he could then use them to play pro-ball. Plenty of blind people learn how to get by using their other senses, some of them amazingly so. Or they could again use any of several means of prosthetic eyesight. A deaf person could also learn to "hear" music through some other means, or whatever. All human progress has been the result of people trying to escape their lot in life. (Which is why religion that turns people into accepting sheep is the great enemy of mankind.) Or you treat your male friends kind of off. Act normal, slap 'em on the rear, lean on them, tell those really horrible dirty jokes you know. You'll find out the females take things differently then males pretty fast. If your definition of normal male behaviour is acting like a gradeschooler or a drunken frat boy, you have a serious problem. Or maybe females don't like Rpng as much. Or maybe they do. If you really had an arguement here, I'd listen, but you don't. Plenty of women RP. There's no reason why they wouldn't like RP as much as men. Therefore, women must like RP as much as men. What group does RPGs target? Males, it's why there is constantly pictures of females on the covers of books, they draw the male eye. This is not because RPG producers just decided to target males, it is because males are more likely to play. Actually, it's exactly because they decided to target males. Feel free to come up with some actual empirical evidence that if you stripped off the culutral issues, more men would still RP than women. I'll wait. You only listen to scientist who you agree with, hence you have scientific backing for your ideas, No, I only listen to scientists who sound like the know what the hell they're talking about. And most of them are in agreement that all the support for gender stereotypes is just a lot of pseudoscience. Some people might stick up for your cause, but you have essentially said that, despite what anyone else tells you, you are going to believe what your own little cult believes. If you could find someone actually respectible who would back your side, this might be an issue. Because we've got alot of science to back us up, so do the evolutionist, so the debate continues. No, no you don't. If you think you do, you're more ignorant than I thought. This is a prime example, you just said that irational and less-rational are the same thing.[/qoute] Since I was using it more as a indicator for specific actions being rational or irrational, with any given idividual taking both rational and irrational actions at different times, "less rational" just means that the ratio of irrational to rational actions is going to be higher. Feelings are inhenantly selfish. Reason is as well. As flawed beings that is how things are. A rational though wouldbe to put people together who work well ogether and who are known to like eachother. An emotional responce would be to let everyone pick who they work with. Both will come out roughly the same, but the first is more orderly. In the same way, a rational way to reach people with the gospel is to convince them of their faults an expect them t follow your logic. A more emotional way would be to make friends with people and just trust them to make the right choice eventually. Either way will work some of the time, nbiether will work all ofte time, but both are needed for any operation to be successful. These examples are not correctly divided at all. So, by your own admittion human culture has been relitively uniform when dealing with the male female relationship. As far as I know, and only in broudest sense. Because, when placed in the field males naturally feel the need to protect them. It's overriding, and causes males to do stupid things to protect females from a percieved threat. females, however, do not have that tendancy, showing once again that males and females are different. Again, this is cultural. Genetics can't really be that precise. (But you know, I have a feeling that argument may mean nothing to you, because I suspect you're some sort of Cartesian Dualist who thinks male and female souls are somehow different.) Why would that develope the same way around the globe? Because males are more suited to certain roles than females, just as females are more suited to certain roles then males. If by "certain roles" you mean "hunting mastodons" vs "making tools, gathering berries, and so forth" then yes. Do you know anyone who hunts mastodons for a licing anymore? Am I to assume that you believe that is foolish? There is no logical reason not to believe in God, even if I'm wrong, I turn out way better than you. This I will respond to in a PM, because it's well over the line. [qoute]A logical fallacy. You have essentially said that that word means nothing since, whenever you say it, you are also saying its opposite. However, if you break that down you are saying that females and males are different (my point) yet that doesn't matter. So, the core of who we are doesn't matter, intresting perspective The fact that I happen to male is at best an after thought in terms of who I am. So you have adopted a fanatical extremist belief that you don't hold so you can change society more. Have I got it? You're saying (in addition to your admition that you will ignore any contrary evidence) that you absolutely cannot back down or accept anything less than your extreme because it will be giving us a win. Well, now that we've hit the main pont, I might as well deal the final blow, you can't argue with me any more. You've just openly admitted that you A. do not believe what you are say, B. it absolutely doesn't matter what anyone else says, your not changing, C. you feel you can never be anything less than extreme because that might be a percieved win on my side, and D. that you are more than happy to fight to destroy an idea you don't nnderstand and will never learn about. Please, have I been wrong anywhere in this last bit? You have a lot wrong. I suppose I should do some positive theory building: To begin with, we need to examine the proposition that men and women are different. If we are going to say that this is true, we need to find specific differences that exist. Lets look at the possiblities: Practically all the supposedly scientific attempts at pinning down behavioural differences between genders is, to put it simply, bad science. Frankly, most of that sort of sociology deals in questionable assumptions, interpretations, and methodology. It's just not credible. Far too much of it is also corrupted by stuff like genetic determinism or even less obvious and less scrupulus biasis. Culturally inherited gender stereotypes are out becuase any argument for them is circular: These stereotypes are observable in action because they have been imposed by society. Because they are observable, they are true and society should enforce them. That leaves the obvious sorts of physical differences: Men and women haev different gentilia. Men have more testasteroine. And so forth. Fine, so there's that. Now the question is two fold: 1) Are there any behavioral differences as a result of these biological differences? 2) Should any of this have an impact on social policy (both official and merely colloqial)? The answer to the first is that our knowledge in this area is still too spotty to really say anything definite. We can perhaps trace some dispositions here and there but the extent to which these are direct causes or for that matter inevitable results is a completely open question. As to the latter, we can say that in matters where biology is directly relevant it is something to take into consideration. For example, men and women have different risks of getting certain diseases (like different types of cancer and what not) and so this should be properly considered when forming policy about screening, health care, etc. That sort of thing is obviously a good idea. But beyond that, when we start getting into actual behavioural stuff, we again don't know enough. And even if we did no more, to a certain extent the principles we have chosen to uphold, of personal freedom and responsibility as well as limited state interferance in private affairs, mean that we should ignore the statistics in favor of properly judging each person on their own merits.
ORC_Tuhteth 05-10-07, 02:30 PM	Okay, this thread has slowly devolved into an exercise in misogyny, and that is absolutely not acceptable. Please keep sexist comments off these forums in the future.