Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JimProfit 12-20-07, 08:52 PM	Okay, bassicaly the GM assigned two teams, and i'm the leader of team one. The thing is, she wants us to progress from first to epic as a competition of sorts of goodguys trying to save the world. Sounds cool. I was able to pickout the team myself, leader of team two picked only a couple i would've wanted on my team anyway. What he picked is not important. My team is.. Rogue (that's me) Fighter (glaive wielding tripping specialist) Psychic-Warrior Psion (telepath discipline) Cleric of Moradin Barbarian And i've been accused of being the deadweight, mostly because I don't disarm traps. Bwah! Not all rogues disarm traps! I'm perfectly capable of FINDING traps, but i've reserved my skills so I can become an assassin and shadow dancer lateron. When I get my own friggin shadow undead as a pet, leap into the shadows, can play with poison with no risk of poisoning myself, and am dealing massive amounts of damage with sneak attack (they stack, it says so) we'll see how weak I am then. I know I won't be casting game-breaking spells like the psion or cleric will by the time we reach our prime, but do you think i'm the deadweight? I think they should look to the fighter, I don't know what sortof prestige class he's planning on taking but i doubt it'll be as badass as mine. And the barbarian's probably even more screwed without feats to get the prequisites, he's probably going to be stuck wielding a big stick "grrr! leave hulk alone!" wo, i'm so scared. And the full casters can't even afford to multiclass! Let's it's one of those few that grant +1 class levels, but those are ussualy not worth the trouble.
Tovec 12-20-07, 09:41 PM	I play a lot of rogues. Most of which suck at traps. Deadweight only applies when you have nothing to contribute. Will the game require a lot of espionage? Are you going to be good at sneak attacking? As you will be in shadow, I would probably say yes. When playing a rogue or rogue-esk character that doesn't do traps remember to makes sure that you, or other members of the party, have the ability to disarm and find traps when needed. If the game is heavily dependant on trapfinding then I would worry about it. If its something that may come up once in a while I would worry about other things. You say you are going to be epic? Then make sure you look into other prestige classes other then just assassin. Most rogue-esk characters do well with a good arrangement of prestige classes, a good selection in the complete adventurer but don't forget complete warrior. Remember that your reflex will be insane and will (at epic) have evasion and improved evasion, more then once probably, so make sure you get things that will increase or negate fortitude and will saves. Making sure you can't be seen is a good start but make sure you have backup plans, as a rogue, for conditions such as anti-magic field or when someone is able to dramatically reduce your main ability. I have played a lot of rogues and sneak attack is well worth it if you can pull it off. If you are never going to get the chance, or are going to die too quickly then you might want to reconsider the class. I and a lot of friends have played rogues, ninjas, assassins, monks, you name it. They are a decent resource in combat situations but aren't the greatest, if that is only what you are going to be dealing with then don't go rogue. If you are going to be spending a lot of time in cities or areas where many skills can be used effectively then by all means take rogue. I don't like bards but I know they can have a great impact in the right game. The same goes with rogues, when their skills are in question you will be glad you have them. Just like a fighter. You will be glad you have one, especially if you have the base covered, as you do.
Kouk 12-20-07, 11:16 PM	"Dead weight" is subjective. I would only consider your character dead weight if no matter what he did, there would be almost no difference whether he was there or not (meaning your presence contributes nothing to encounters other than another person to heal). I don't know how combat ready you are, but you sound pretty focused. The main issue is probably not that your character is "useless", just that he is not performing the role that the other players expect him to. First of all: yes, you can play a character however you want and you don't have to play a "certain way". That said, other people... usually expect a character to play a "certain way". It is not that your character is useless, just that he does not meet the expectations other have set for him. Frankly, I am all for characters who break the norm -- as long as the party can somehow handle the tasks it needs to. A Rogue who doesn't deal with traps is not that far off from a Cleric who doesn't heal his team, or a Barbarian who doesn't beat up enemies. They might be great characters but if nobody else in the party can handle healing or taking care of traps or beating up enemies then the party is missing a role. The secondary issue is probably that you are stepping on the toes of the Fighter, Psychic Warrior and Barbarian. Your character wants to deal non-magical damage (probably huge amounts), and so do theirs in all probability. The Fighter, Psychic Warrior and Barbarian are probably already getting in each others' way as it is, so your team has basically 4 melee characters, 1 healer and 1 mage (psion). Their displeasure is most likely misplaced, but it is much simpler to blame the Rogue for not being able to deal with traps than it is to blame the Fighter, because traps are traditionally the Rogue's responsibility. I think your party may want to discuss everyone's role in the group, and perhaps make new characters to produce a group which covers all bases better. It is quite possible that you can speak with the DM and maybe ask him to tone down traps so that they are either not as deadly or have some other way to bypass them (perhaps using actual "thinking" rather than a die roll) that the whole party can get involved with. This way it is not "Oh, the Rogue found a trap, but we can't do anything. I have a lot of HP, I guess I will volunteer to trigger it and hope I survive", it will be, "Oh, the Rogue found a trap. Whew that was close, we almost walked into it, I'm glad you keep your Search skill trained! Hmm, how should we handle this one guys?" With "normal" traps, a Rogue who can point them out but do absolutely nothing about them is similar to the Barbarian pointing to an Ogre and saying, "Look! An Ogre! Go get him guys, I'll stay here!" -- It would almost be better if the Rogue couldn't find them in the first place. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices for the good of the party though, so you should at least consider training Disable Device a little bit if the DM won't make more interactive traps, or at least investing some cash in ways around traps, such as training a couple of ranks in Disable Device and then using magic items to boost it further, or some UMD and Scrolls of Dispel Magic (for suppressing magic traps).
metalmayhem80110 12-21-07, 01:03 AM	The fighter is the deadweight if anything. Don't get me wrong, you're going to need a fair bit of optimization... I'd concider going ninja into shadowdancer, you still get evasion and some other neat abilities this way. The fighter should be a duskblade or some other improved fighter out of the Tome of Battle or Book of nine swords. Just my idea.
Dragonsblood 12-21-07, 03:32 AM	You can't spare just 1 point per level to fill this role? Sure you won't be a deadweight, but disarming traps really adds value to rogues. You can still be a threat from the shadows with poison and sneak attacks all the while still disarming traps. I would be annoyed with you too if I were a part of this group.
JimProfit 12-21-07, 11:49 AM	Actually now they're complaining about my 8 con score. Cause we used pointbuy. This means every five seconds im gonna need healing, or alternatively i sitout combat. I know a fair number of languages, maybe i can lie to the monsters, claim i'm a slave, or a spy, or a morphling lol!
Dog_O_War 12-21-07, 01:28 PM	You want to be an assassin, in a party with a cleric of Moradin, and the party already has it out for you? You're going to die. Actually, if you just assert yourself as the "strategic geneous" right away, then you could virtually do nothing and people will congradulate you on a job well-done. Basically though, you've assigned yourself as scout; since you're aiming for an evil prestige class, have the nay-sayers run into traps you've found. Offer an ultimatum; either stop complaining and destroy the traps you find, or have unfortunate 'accidents' often. By the cut of your parties' jib, you're clearly a wrecking crew of PC's. They won't even notice that you're slowing the damage output down.
LSMFT 12-21-07, 02:28 PM	Ok, well, coupleafew things: 1) You are the class that is traditionally associated with finding traps. No one should be able to force you into a role you don't want, but, someone's got to do it. 2) The role you want to fill, damage dealer, is already being filled by several people. And, though the fighter is probably going to get reduced to a meat shield later, he kicks your 8-con-having ass right now. I mean, if I'm a level-one cleric, who am I going to use one of my few CLW on? You (again) or the guy whose "grrr!" big stick is tripping any monster that gets close to me? 3) I probably wouldn't be upset with a guy who wanted to play a rogue and not do traps, but I would get irritated if you told me it was because you "reserved my skills so I can become an assassin and shadow dancer lateron." That would bother me since you only need ranks in four skills, two of which don't even need to be maxed, to do this. And here's the big problem: You are the leader, and your party is not happy. Even if they are dead wrong, you can't be a leader when the group feels they have to carry you. You have to create the perception that you are "the man" right now. Not that you will eventually become "the man" 8-10 levels from now when you get a Shadow companion. And the full casters can't even afford to multiclass! Let's it's one of those few that grant +1 class levels, but those are ussualy not worth the trouble.I don't know what sources you are allowed, but there are one or two that some casters might consider "worth the trouble."
jradd777 12-21-07, 04:01 PM	Since you have no trouble finding them... just read the PHB sidebar... There's a sidebar in the PHB (bottom of pg. 73) that lists no-brainer methods of beating a trap... and that's just what the authors hand-feed you... get creative, you don't need disable device... no party is screwed without someone that has the skill. Check it out, show your party, anyone can get past these things, just put your thinking caps on.
Etarnon 12-21-07, 04:35 PM	I say play your character, and don't metagame the class. I've enjoyed assassins since 1st ed. Good luck.
Cartigan 12-21-07, 05:51 PM	I see a potential problem of being evil in a good game.
JimProfit 12-21-07, 06:21 PM	You want to be an assassin, in a party with a cleric of Moradin, and the party already has it out for you? You're going to die. Actually, if you just assert yourself as the "strategic geneous" right away, then you could virtually do nothing and people will congradulate you on a job well-done. Basically though, you've assigned yourself as scout; since you're aiming for an evil prestige class, have the nay-sayers run into traps you've found. Offer an ultimatum; either stop complaining and destroy the traps you find, or have unfortunate 'accidents' often. By the cut of your parties' jib, you're clearly a wrecking crew of PC's. They won't even notice that you're slowing the damage output down. They don't seem to care much about the assassin part. And I AM a genious! I figuredout a way to shut them up and not put ranks in disable device. I bought chickens! :D In world war 2, the nazis used animals as mine-bait, they'd walk across and trigger any traps that were there. Even if I don't find traps to avoid them, or can't, if the chickens walk ahead of us then they'll trigger the traps! No more traps! (Presumably, unless it's a magical trap, permanent trap, or God forbid a polymorph trap like in nethack, nothing gonna be worsed then a polymorphed chicken that remembers i didn't feed it cause i'm cheap and figure they're going to die anyway..) I don't wanna have to run to the shop to buy chickens every damn time we adventure, so we should look for homeless people. We promise them chickens if they help! And if we're out of chickens eh, they're friggin homeless, what do they got to lose?! Being chaotic evil is nice. :) Maybe I can use the chickens for poison.. disease more accurately. Salmaniela! I know I did that with feces and cut wounds.. who would've thought of that?! Me to GM: COMEON! That can so be filth fever! GM: I'm going to have nightmares about this campaign.. you're too good at being chaotic evil..
happy_fuzzy 12-21-07, 07:01 PM	If you have complete adventurer how about taking a few wizard levels and going to into daggerspell mage? You'll be losing maybe 2-3d6 sneak attack dice but in return you'll be able to cast stuff like gravestrike, golem strike, true strike, wraith strike, buffs, etc. at times when the enemy is resistant to sneak attack (thats what golem and grave strike is for), when the enemy has a really high natural armor/armor enhanced AC, think dragons you use wraith strike, etc. Plus you get nice spell channeling through your dagger attacks. If its core maybe same thing but go into arcane trickster? Its impromptu sneak attack is usable only a few times per day, but when you use it you are pretty much going to one-shot or severly wound whatver you hit it with, plus ranged legerdemain lets you try to disarm pesky traps without worry of getting hit (usually). Sorry for long-winded advice, but I would just max or put at a lot of skill pts. into disable device, etc. I mean you have 6(or was it 8?) + Int mod. skill pts per level. Finally, what do you generally do? If you focus on sneak attack do you use 2-wep fighting? If you don't you are seriously nerfing yourself.
JimProfit 12-21-07, 09:33 PM	I had a 16 strength so i can throw good. Throw poison darts from the darkness.:D
danielinthewolvesden 12-21-07, 09:50 PM	Rogue (that's me) Fighter (glaive wielding tripping specialist) Psychic-Warrior Psion (telepath discipline) Cleric of Moradin Barbarian And i've been accused of being the deadweight, mostly because I don't disarm traps. Bwah! Not all rogues disarm traps! I'm perfectly capable of FINDING traps, but i've reserved my skills so I can become an assassin and shadow dancer lateron. When I get my own friggin shadow undead as a pet, leap into the shadows, can play with poison with no risk of poisoning myself, and am dealing massive amounts of damage with sneak attack (they stack, it says so) we'll see how weak I am then. I know I won't be casting game-breaking spells like the psion or cleric will by the time we reach our prime, but do you think i'm the deadweight? . Yes, slightly. Two reasons- if YOU do not disarm traps, who does? As LSMFT said "....but, someone's got to do it." Next, your build might well be powerful "When I get my own friggin shadow undead as a pet, leap into the shadows, can play with poison with no risk of poisoning myself, and am dealing massive amounts of damage with sneak attack" but how about until then? Again, LSMFT is correct when he says: "The role you want to fill, damage dealer, is already being filled by several people. And, though the fighter is probably going to get reduced to a meat shield later, he kicks your 8-con-having ass right now." Chicken will not work. They do not weigh enough to set off weight traps, nor tall enough to set off others, and like you said "... a magical trap, permanent trap, or God forbid a polymorph trap like in nethack...". I am also worried about your alignment issues, and that you seem to be running a disruptive PC, or as we say a "Steve".:allalone: :nonono:
Kouk 12-22-07, 12:44 AM	I had a 16 strength so i can throw good. Throw poison darts from the darkness.:D OK, I see another potential issue: You are not an optimizer. It's fine to not be an optimizer; I love interesting characters!... but if the rest of the players are optimizing and the numbers game is important to them, then you are setting your character up as the "oddball weakling" rather than the "badass leader". 8 Con when you could have had better means the other party doesn't want you in melee, and also probably doesn't want you to do "massive damage" because besides stepping on toes you also make yourself a target that way. If you make yourself a target, someone has to heal you and someone has to protect you. You use Darts rather than Bows. Fine for flavor, but mechanically inferior. Darts: 1d4 damage, x2 crit, 20ft range increment. Shortbow: 1d6 damage, x3 crit, 60-70 range increment. Composite bows allow you to use your STR damage as well. Is that a major difference when most of your damage is Sneak Attack? No, but you could be doing more (from the numbers perspective). Also, you seem like a goofy guy. Sometimes that works great in a campaign, sometimes it doesn't. Kudos on the chickens though. :D
IceFractal 12-22-07, 01:17 AM	Actually, darts aren't bad for a Rogue. Since Sneak Attack requires 30' or less range anyway, the lower range doesn't matter much. And since Sneak Attack will be 90% of the damage anyway, the lower base damage doesn't matter. Also, you can TWF+Rapid Shot with darts: more attacks = more sneak attacks. Second - just buy some Wands of Mount. Takes up less room than chickens, and horses are big enough to trigger nearly any trap. Plus, you can block off narrow passages with them and use them as cover. Third - for a ranged-attack based Rogue (pretty much any Rogue, honestly), Constitution > Strength. See if you can switch those two stats, because that would help your "liability" status immensely. When you're dealing "massive amounts of damage with sneak attack", what good does 3-4 extra points do, compared with not needing constant healing? Finally - please tell me you're maxing UMD. If not, starting doing so immediately. With three tanks already, merely dealing normal damage isn't really a vital role. But with no arcane caster, being able to use wands would make you a more valued leader. Plus, using spells like Lesser Orb of X / Produce Flame to sneak attack could let you put the hurt on foes too tough for most of the party to hit.
kelvinaw273 12-22-07, 09:17 AM	OK, let me get this straight: 1) You are a rogue, you do not have sufficient skill ranks in Disable Device to do so effectively (yes, I read about the chickens, but chickens are not good for stealth. They cluck). 2) You want to be a combat damage dealing assassin, when there are already three combat specialists in the party. With a Con of 8 and light armour, you are effectively restricted to being a sniper if you don't want to get splattered every combat. Oh, and against plants, constructs and undead you are next to useless whether you go missile or melee. 3) You are chaotic evil in a party of supposed good guys, plus you are supposed to be the leader. And you wonder why they think this might not work? With three other combat specialists in the party you can bet one of them wants to be the missile man (psy war can do that role pretty well, at least as well as you because unlike you, his main damage dishing isn't restricted by type of foe). I feel I have to point out that: 1) You are not adding anything to the party that it does not already have. The role you have is effectively restricted to a one-trick-pony role. 2) You are not fulfilling your traditional role. 3) You may be a tactical genius, but you are not a people person (chaotic evil says not a people person, the fact your party are unhappy with you before the games starts says you aren't a people person) ergo, getting them to follow your orders, even if you are right, isn't going to be easy. Plus, you can't shout orders while sneaking around in the shadows. Hence, you are not configured to be a good leader, although you might pull it off. So yes, I can see where your party is coming from: You are going to be a drain on resources (needing healing a lot) without contributing much that is tangible or irreplaceable. That isn't how it WILL run, but it is certainly how it looks.
JimProfit 12-22-07, 04:49 PM	I'd hide in the shadows and maybe throw paper notes at them with stradegies LOL.. But then they'd have to bend-down and pick it up. Thus leaving them open to attack of oppurtunity. Kindof ironic really.:P And i'm the kindof jackass who loves to make visual notes like a football coach, with lines, swirves, stick figures of everyone lol. Like there was this time when we found a wizard's tower with libraries of books. And I was like "omg this is so friggin easy, someone give me a torch and i'll just burn the damn books!" then the evil wizard came in as i scorched his books and i was "ahahaHA! YOU FOOL! NOW YOU ARE POWERLESS!" Evil Wizard: You think i'm stupid enough to leave my books visible for mongrels like you to see and ruin them? You must take me for a moron.. I put those there on purpose so you'd waste your time burning them so I could find you, now you're going to die for trespassing. Jim: ....Clearly we are dealing with an evil mastermind. I'm jealous really. Cleric ooc: This is why you don't give your damn character 8 wisdom! GM: No, unfourtanatly for you all, that was Jim's plan OUT OF GAME. But i'm highly amused..
kelcimer 12-23-07, 02:50 AM	There is nothing to say that you will be dead weight. But as the games progress and you find your chracter isn't performing all that great then it's a simple matter of multiclassing to get you what you need to not be deficient. Meh.
kelvinaw273 12-23-07, 09:27 AM	There is nothing to say that you will be dead weight. But as the games progress and you find your chracter isn't performing all that great then it's a simple matter of multiclassing to get you what you need to not be deficient. Meh. ... like Trapfinding and Disable Device? A higher Con score? I don't think multiclassing is what is needed here, I think it's more a case of thinking long and hard about what he is trying to achieve. What the party he describes NEEDS is a good skills-monkey rogue - it has ample damage-dealing and taking classes in it. It has adequate spell/manifesting power. It does NOT have a good scout/trap-springer/skills-monkey. That is the role this character could fulfill perfectly without changing class, but doesn't want to. And HE picked the other party members! :rolleyes:
JimProfit 12-23-07, 07:25 PM	Well the GM let me get away with switching sense motive ranks to disable device sense i have yet to use either skill in-game yet. So that's get rid of that problem. Ofcourse there's still the argument that i'm trying to be a combatant, but hey, who's gonna argue with a shadowdancing rogue-assassin?:D
MrCustomer 12-23-07, 09:07 PM	I doubt chickens are heavy enough to set off most traps, after all any dungeon is likely top have rats, a presure lever is likely to be set for a heavy person. Seriously thougha Rogue gets plenty of skill points, and the skill requirement for assasins and Shadow Dancers is insignificant, you are going extremely out of your way to avoid taking ranks in an extremely good skill for no real justifiable reason other then "I don't wanna"
kelcimer 12-24-07, 12:16 PM	... like Trapfinding and Disable Device? A higher Con score? He said he's good at Trapfinding. Disable Divise? Meh? "I put a doorspike in it!" That generally works. And Hit Points don't matter if you don't get hit.
Dusken 12-27-07, 12:06 PM	I can't resist... if ur not a wizard, j00 r teh suxxors Seriously though, I'm all for playing what you want. However it seems to me that you're going to spend a lot of time inactive. Combat? You have enough in that field. Social interaction (*gasp* you mean talk to npcs?)? The Psion and Cleric will have some skills to compensate IF they are not ignored. That leaves being the "boxman". Locks and traps don't care of you will own the battlefield in a couple levels. You can't make a trip attack against a heavy stone door. 6d6 sneak attack damage fails against that wall you're going to have to climb. How about intimidating that wand of cure moderate wounds into healing your cleric laying on the ground and bleeding out? But I see your point about having to be tight on skills. Those ranks in dance are strangling your 8+ ranks per level. Right now in my Eberron campaign I have a party that has no ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, or Sense Motive. I've made them roll those checks far more often then anythign else. They have lost the ability to earn twice the money they're being paid. It's to the point that one player is considering taking the one level penalty I've houseruled for replacement characters to bring in a bard. But seriously, play what you want. I'll wait for your "I'm so bored" post in a few months.
Magrus 12-28-07, 01:08 PM	To cut to the point, yes, you'll lag behind. When you can even start using the abilities you are hoping for come level 15, you will see that oh no, the Psion is still king of damage, and the character you struggled with for 3/4 of the game still can't compete without a partner to flank with. Your shadow will be wasted by the DM as a way to get even with you for causing him headaches of listening to the back and forth between you and the rest of the party for the past 15 levels. You are the leader of the group, you've been appointed to a place of responsibility. You are treating it like my little brother does when he gets to pick where the family gets to eat, and he's 6. You know what he does? He thinks of something that his big sister hates, and goes with that, just because he's got power, finally. As the leader, sit down with your group and the DM, and say "The party composition seems lopsided, and maybe we should think of how to reorganize the setup here, including my character." Frankly, I think the best bet in attempting to get your character in line is best in, you know, a non-good party? Find something else that does the basics of what you want to do, which is owning in combat, obviously.