Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neo_Leviathan 03-16-05, 06:06 AM	Ok, I'm in a complaint with my GM about him giving my chaotic good human sorcerer an alignment shift to chaotic neutral. We're in a huge battle (party of four, lvls 4-6), our halfling druid is surrounded, the other two party members have managed to fight away from the guys that were attacking them. Now imagine a straight corridor, about 100ft long, which is th gatehouse to a mountain complex: ------------------------------------|.....A.....|------------- |....................................... ........................................&&\ |..@.................................... ......................................*D .|e |.B@...................#....#........*.. .......#....G...#..............###|e |...........................#......*.... .....#.........#......................../ ------------------------------------|.....A.....|------------ Imagine that: Both of the @ are Ballistae, pointed straight ahead A are side corridores, with party members out of ballistae line of sight D is the halfling e is a pair of doors to exit the complex B is my character, manning on of the ballistae # are the enemy mooks in the path of the ballistae I'm using (there are about twice as many mooks as shown) & are the mooks not in the path of my ballistae (again there are about twice as many as shown) * are the big bad nasty critters, who are our level or higher, a Troglodyte (in melee with the druid), an ogre and a half elf. G is the corpse of an advanced (12 HD) howler that the barbarian/fighter 'killed' I fired my ballistae (having chosen the one that was pointed at the 10ft half of the door the druid was *not* in), now our GM didn't know the rules for a ballistae, so he ruled that every creature in it's path (since they weren't looking in my direction) were obliterated (as in we didn't even get the gold they were carrying, the gold itself was dissolved), for those who've read Terry Pratchett, think Detritus' "Piecemaker". I justified it by saying that it was our only course of action, we were getting bashed to hell (we were actually meant to run away from the fight) and so it was either risk hitting the druid, and kill most of the enemy, thus giving us a good chance of winning, or have us all (well, except me, hooray for spider climb and invisibility) killed. I made sure I was using the ballistae that was unlikely to hit the druid, but accepted the risk as for the greater good. The GM declared "No, it's an evil act, you are now chaotic neutral". Am I overreacting, or was this a bad call for the GM?
rhflyweyr 03-16-05, 06:28 AM	To me, I'd say the act in itself was neutral, you didn kill the druid for fun or because you could, but because it would help you (and the group as a whole). Therefore the act is neutral. This could cause an alignment shift, but when I run games, shifts only occur after repeated occurances of these actions. Even someone who is good, is never good ALL THE TIME (except stupid good paladins :P).
quaiven 03-16-05, 06:33 AM	Whether the act was evil or not doesn't really matter, one out of alignment act doesn't warrant an alignment shift. And IMO the act wasn't evil at all, you were in combat and used an available asset to kill or disable the enemy, it was no different than using a Fireball. PS pretty cheesy of him to rob you of the treasure like that.
The_Dark_One 03-16-05, 06:42 AM	Yeah, that was a bad call. You weren't aiming for the druid and you actually took steps to reduce the risk that you'd hit him. It wasn't an evil act. You saved the druid's life instead of running away. It was, in actuality, a Good act. Oh, the balista. The reason Detritus's crossbow does so much damage is that its under a great deal of pressure, its loaded with WAY to many bolts, the bolts tend to break apart, and are usually on fire when they hit their target. Getting hit by the Piecemaker id likr being caught in a fireball, but with point metal bit moving at firearms velocity (and pointy wooden bit that are moving just as fast and are on fire).
ShadowDragon8685 03-16-05, 07:16 AM	Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. Seriously, this is a bullcrap call, and you need to call him on it.
nyysjan 03-16-05, 08:25 AM	oh What the F*** come on ballista is basicly just a one big crossbow
Clawhound 03-16-05, 09:11 AM	One act does not change your alignment. The PHB takes great pains to say this. Most characters can and will sway out of their alignment merely because they are human. Now, if you've had a pattern of such behavior, then such a shift may be justified. However, the GM should never fiat an alignment change. If you have been consistently playing CN more than CG, the GM needs to say, "Hey, you've been playing the character more CN than CG, and here's why I think that. Do you want to change your alignment?"
rhflyweyr 03-16-05, 09:15 AM	However, the GM should never fiat an alignment change. If you have been consistently playing CN more than CG, the GM needs to say, "Hey, you've been playing the character more CN than CG, and here's why I think that. Do you want to change your alignment?" As I said above, in this situation it is completely unwarranted, however i think it is the DMs right to fiat an alignment change. Although there should be warning and many chances, as some point, if the character consistantly does not follow his alignment then one of the two has to change. Changing the alignment on the sheet is alot better then telling the player that "you cant do that because it is evil and you are good". I think the alignment on the sheet is supposed to be reflective of game-play.
Yak of Darkness 03-16-05, 09:23 AM	Put me down in the, "What a jackass," camp, directed at the DM. You tried to do a fairly decent thing, which was made to have terrible consequences based on the DM's ridiculous reading of the rules (it's certainly possible for a good DM not to know that ballistae work just like crossbows right off the top of his head, but not to come up with that insane ruling as a solution). Then, based on one action whose results were completely out of your hands, he calls for an alignment shift. So much about that is wrong...
CzarGarrett 03-16-05, 09:38 AM	I concur. Your DM is a jackass. A ballista melting gold!?!? Calling you evil for taking a risk to save your party?!? He's a fool, and you can tell him I said that.
Ty 03-16-05, 09:48 AM	Look! Its the amazing Gnomish Lava Ballista! It melts gold, cooks pigs, kills everything it its path, dices, chops, splices rope and yes, for just $19.99 it can be YOURS! Call now! Your DM is as absurd as the statement I just typed. I concur with Shadow Dragon. Take out the Hammergun TS-4000 and squeeze the little trigger. Seriously though, your DM needs to lay off the Terry Pratchet or whatever. Next thing you know he'll be handing out sugar boots that melt in water.
The_Dark_One 03-16-05, 09:48 AM	So, you take a risk to save the party, and because of a bad joke and a bad ruling, you are judged evil? I agree... Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt :D Look! Its the amazing Gnomish Lava Ballista! It melts gold, cooks pigs, kills everything it its path, dices, chops, splices rope and yes, for just $19.99 it can be YOURS! Call now! I want one, but can it do Digital Video Recording? If it does, send me two...
Yak of Darkness 03-16-05, 10:05 AM	On the other hand, if this ruling sticks, you need to get your character a portable ballista right away. Think of the power you'll have at your fingertips! :D
weaponsmith 03-16-05, 10:28 AM	Has your Char. ever fired a Ballista?? I assume not. So how were you to know the ballista is a small nuke... looks like a big crossbow to me. You would have never thought it would do that much damage... Strange DM ruling...and to rob you of the gold too, is wrong... maybe you could have used the gold to res. your buddy... but i would get a wagon and mount a ballista on it asap. ;)
Reinforcements 03-16-05, 10:48 AM	Post, because I can! Points to be clear on: -This act was neutral at worst. -Neutral acts do not cause any alignment shift. It'd be pretty tough to stay good if anytime you brushed your teeth you had to do it IN THE NAME OF PELOR!
Drachasor 03-16-05, 10:54 AM	Post, because I can! -Neutral acts do not cause any alignment shift. It'd be pretty tough to stay good if anytime you brushed your teeth you had to do it IN THE NAME OF PELOR! ...that's not how you brush your teeth? By Moradin's Hamburger! -Drachasor
Yak of Darkness 03-16-05, 11:20 AM	It'd be pretty tough to stay good if anytime you brushed your teeth you had to do it IN THE NAME OF PELOR! The very first D&D game I played in, someone had a paladin exactly like that. If any anti-paladin bias ever slips into my posts, it is all that man's fault.
Stafir Ortnev 03-16-05, 11:55 AM	Its not justified..but otherwise. I'm in agreement with the whole..get a portable ballista..heck..take that one you used and make it portable if you can! If he's gonna try to change your alignment over the fact you didn't know of a rule change that seriously affected how a weapon you know about works...abuse it to heck and back. Hi mister giant *boom*, hi mister army *boom*, hi mister BBEG *boom*, hi mister dragon *boom!* One single deviation does not change your alignment. Your alignment is essentially some great big cosmic force that looks at everything you've done in your life..then it gets out a great big rubber stamp and stamps it on your head...with whatever alignment you are. It dosn't change on a whim.....beginnin chars I think can change more...as you might not fully understand the char yet...so its best to be somewhat maliable..until you get a few sessions under your belt. But even then..it shouldn't change based on just one act.
Maerdash 03-16-05, 01:14 PM	your dm is the kind of dm that makes the rest of use look so good :D Seriously though this is one of the dumbest calls ive ever seen posted here and THAT means DUMB, call him out on it,every single halfway decent dm in the world is on your side and no one cares about the rest :D
ShadowDragon8685 03-16-05, 01:18 PM	Yeah. How were you to know that it was a plasma cannon disguised as a giant crossbow? Take that mother, clamp it down to a wagon. :)
danielinthewolvesden 03-16-05, 02:04 PM	How about having your DM come here and explain his side? So far, I agree that no change is warrented.
Suicidal Cavalry Attack 03-16-05, 02:28 PM	Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. Seriously, this is a bullcrap call, and you need to call him on it. Ditto. And what DM worth a spit puts a ballista in his adventure without knowing how it works?
HomebrewedMonster 03-16-05, 02:56 PM	Ditto. And what DM worth a spit puts a ballista in his adventure without knowing how it works? One that overwhelms a low level party with unbeatable odds, expecting them to run away even when their exit is cut off by hoards of "mooks". Noob.
Cymraegmorgan 03-16-05, 03:00 PM	your dm is the kind of dm that makes the rest of use look so good :D Seriously though this is one of the dumbest calls ive ever seen posted here and THAT means DUMB, call him out on it,every single halfway decent dm in the world is on your side and no one cares about the rest :D This one is as bad as some of the ones Shadowdragon has had to deal with. Where are the stats for a ballista *** plasma cannon?
HomebrewedMonster 03-16-05, 03:10 PM	This one is as bad as some of the ones Shadowdragon has had to deal with. Where are the stats for a ballista *** plasma cannon? He was using rules from the 40k RPG.
feartheinvinceblehamster 03-16-05, 03:16 PM	Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. Seriously, this is a bullcrap call, and you need to call him on it. you've suggested this before, if i remember....anyway, ditch the diagram, it hurts my eyes, and the AL shift is not justified
DM Denubis 03-16-05, 03:22 PM	Wow. I'd never leave the side of that ballista again. Bring it with you. Put ranks in Profession (Siege Engineer). Make him regret that ruling, and continue doing so until something sunders it. Then cast mending.
Drachasor 03-16-05, 03:26 PM	Where are the stats for a ballista *** plasma cannon? Apparently it Disintigrates everyone in a 5' wide line in front of the Ballista (no save), with a length and occasional divergences from that line at the DM's discretion. Get a few of these things and you'll never need another weapon again. Heck, they aren't even magic so AMF doesn't stop them! -Drachasor
Arrowhen 03-16-05, 03:26 PM	Repeatedly fire your ballista straight into the ground until it ruptures the planet's crust and causes lava to spew out in a fiery cataclysm, destroying civilization and ending the campaign. Then tell him you were just "playing your alignment" because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Drachasor 03-16-05, 03:27 PM	Repeatedly fire your ballista straight into the ground until it ruptures the planet's crust and causes lava to spew out in a fiery cataclysm, destroying civilization and ending the campaign. Then tell him you were just "playing your alignment" because it seemed like a good idea at the time. LOL
ShadowDragon8685 03-16-05, 03:45 PM	Apparently it IS a 5-foot wide beam of disintegration, no save, that can strike targets ajacent to the five-foot corridor, depending on whether or not they are allied with you. (If they are allied with you, they get struck.)
Neo_Leviathan 03-16-05, 06:44 PM	Ok, I'm loving the shoot the earth's crust idea!! Can't really take it with us, since we are about to start a dungeon crawl (We are playing "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil", which is also the reason the ballistae were in there when the DM didnt' know what rules they were), hence my chara destroyed them before we left to go back to town for healing and interrogation etc (we captured the Trog). Now theres the problem of what to do with the little loot we have (we got squat all, and only magic items from the two big bads that were "Plasma Bolted"), but we still have 16 odd suits of masterwork banded mail, and 16 odd masterword bastard swords, all tied together and dragged by the fighter/barbarian. The local damned town is too damned small to sell it all!!!
Arrowhen 03-16-05, 06:46 PM	Make a ballista out of them.
Stafir Ortnev 03-16-05, 06:49 PM	Go to the blacksmith..offer to give him the items..to make into scrap, or whatever..if he'll create you something in return :D
Cymraegmorgan 03-16-05, 08:52 PM	This one is as bad as some of the ones Shadowdragon has had to deal with. Where are the stats for a ballista *** plasma cannon? I love it!!! I used a three letter Latin word for "with/that has become a...", and it was censored.... :rofl:
Andrew_980 03-16-05, 09:04 PM	smite the DM and make him reread all info on alignments
ShadowDragon8685 03-16-05, 09:06 PM	Smite him and make him read up on what a Ballastae is. It's certainly not a beam of five-foot-wide disintegration death.
Morwen 03-16-05, 09:26 PM	However, I definitely need to have one of my BBEGs own a "Beam of Disintegration Ballista". That should teach my players not to take things at face value :P
DeathMagus 03-16-05, 09:30 PM	Look! Its the amazing Gnomish Lava Ballista! It melts gold, cooks pigs, kills everything it its path, dices, chops, splices rope and yes, for just $19.99 it can be YOURS! Call now! Eh...I think 4 easy payments of that amount is more likely. But yes, the DM is a ::ahem:: not very good at improvising rules he is unfamiliar with.
twad 03-16-05, 10:23 PM	it was not a plasma cannon.. it was a gauss supersoaker 4800 turbo X loaded with Armor piercing crab juice. Does it comes with a cup holder? For alignment i agree with the others.
Neo_Leviathan 03-17-05, 01:06 AM	I've spoken with my GM and he has rescinded my alignment change, I severely doubt we'll be getting the loot from the disintegrated 'tough guys', but I'll accept that as long as he gives us full XP, since we really shouldn't have been able to take the combat. Loss of a bit of gold for what should be nearly 3000xp from one session, not bad for a lvl 5....
PhaedrusXY 03-17-05, 04:03 AM	Maybe it's because it's 3 AM here, but this is just about the funniest thing I've ever read right now.Make a ballista out of them. :heehee :w00t: :dancin:
Ottergame 03-17-05, 07:05 AM	Ok, I'm loving the shoot the earth's crust idea!! Can't really take it with us, since we are about to start a dungeon crawl Screw that, use the ballista to widen the sides of the corridors.
Norseman 03-17-05, 07:22 AM	Whether the act was evil or not doesn't really matter, one out of alignment act doesn't warrant an alignment shift. And IMO the act wasn't evil at all, you were in combat and used an available asset to kill or disable the enemy, it was no different than using a Fireball. PS pretty cheesy of him to rob you of the treasure like that. One act out of alignment can make you evil. For example, you torture and execute a little girl. One act, you're evil. However, I don't think this one instance is particularly evil. If that were the case, all military commanders would be evil for sending their men into harm's way. In war, sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good. Of course, I consider the act of sacrificing evil, but with a good intent and outcome, the act becomes good. Combining the evil of the sacrifice with the good of the result, I would consider the action neutral. Now, I strongly believe a chaotic good character can make a neutral action every so often without it being outside of bounds. In any case, if your DM does force you to be neutral for this, then simply do a lot of good actions to redeem yourself.
Norseman 03-17-05, 07:24 AM	Smite him and make him read up on what a Ballastae is. It's certainly not a beam of five-foot-wide disintegration death. Exactly. Your DM should be promptly smote for making such a silly rule. FYI, a ballista does 3d8 damage with -4 penalty to attack unless you're large. It otherwise acts like a big stationary crossbow.
Callista 03-17-05, 08:01 AM	Chaotic, maybe, which is right in keeping with your character. I mean, it's a desperate tactic that puts your ally in danger and kills your opponents... but then, this was a desperate battle; and you had reason to believe your ally (a halfling, with probable decent DEX) could dodge the ballista bolt. I think it was jusified. Did you yell to the Druid to watch out? Not that it would've given him any bonuses to dodging the ballista bolt; but if your character did this it would be much less iffy to employ that sort of a tactic. Evil? No. Depserate? Yes. And you owe the Druid an apology... most likely, he will understand, though, because without that ballista bolt he would've been dead anyway. Your DM shouldn't have shifted your alignment unless this was a long-range record... y'know, stuff like Fireballing the rogue who's in the middle of the baddies, and such. And even then it would stay at Neutral, not gone to Evil.
Spitfire665 03-17-05, 08:30 AM	Repeatedly fire your ballista straight into the ground until it ruptures the planet's crust and causes lava to spew out in a fiery cataclysm, destroying civilization and ending the campaign. Then tell him you were just "playing your alignment" because it seemed like a good idea at the time. I second that! ROFLMAO!
Lincoln Hills 03-17-05, 06:48 PM	I've spoken with my GM and he has rescinded my alignment change, I severely doubt we'll be getting the loot from the disintegrated 'tough guys', but I'll accept that as long as he gives us full XP, since we really shouldn't have been able to take the combat. Loss of a bit of gold for what should be nearly 3000xp from one session, not bad for a lvl 5.... You may have resolved this situation, N.L., but your DM has clearly shown that he is not to be trusted with sharp objects (such as the Dungeon Master's Guide.) I'd think twice, were I you, about sitting down at his table again: who knows what seemingly harmless action you next take might suddenly convert you to Lawful Evil and a hapless town to radioactive ash: "The orcs were mining thorium ore, you see, and... it's radioactive, and, um, critical mass is... a Catholic tradition, which makes it kind of like Thanksgiving... and turkeys have feathers, which are flammable, just like the flask of oil you flung at the orcs... and the townsfolk were within the blast radius... it says here in my notes oil flasks have a burst radius of five miles... maybe that should be feet? Oh well."