Post/Author/DateTime	Post
adiaven 01-13-04, 06:06 PM	We are starting a new campaign, and everyone liked the idea of doing an evil party for a new twist. One loves to play rogues, she picked that. One guy was dieing to play a thayan wizard (and the campaign is set in the east, so that worked) he got that. The 3rd guy wanted to play a straight up fighter (he played spellcasters for too long and was bored of it)..... So we were discussing what class I could play, and everyone says "Oh we definitely need a cleric" I played a cleric in the last campaign (although we had a cleric heavy group), but I was willing to go along with it for this campaign. Now that I done some reading, and looked into possible prestige classes, I am not too excited about the idea. - The party needs a healer... Evil clerics need to prepare slots for healing. Well, there goes any utility I have has a spell caster... I am basically a battery of health for the part, and I dont even get a chance to cast other spells like a good cleric does. - Inflict wounds sucks. 1st level spell to do d8+5 damage? Hmmm save the spell and use my weapon isntead. Even 2nd level sucks.. and by 3rd and 4th level, there are way more damaging spells a cleric can do. - I got excited by a Cleric of Shar, using Shadow Weave magic.. until I realized clerics get almost no Illusion or Enchantment spells... Shadow Weave wizard would be cool to play, but Shadow Weave cleric looks like a gimp. (other than necromancy) - Animate dead does not look to useful (I may be wrong). I have waded through too many ineffective skeletons and zombies to think these guys are going to do anything in a battle. Maybe cannon fodder to take the brunt of the attack, or use them as trap bait... but they can barely hit anything hard. Am I wrong? Is there an effective way for an evil party to have decent healing (using 3.5 rules) without a cleric? I really don't want to play a healing battery with no options. Any ideas for evil clerics that is both fun and somewhat effective?
Malben 01-13-04, 06:32 PM	The evil cleric is possibly the most powerful member of an evil party. If you control the healing magic, you are a practically indispensable commodity. The other characters annoy you at their peril, because an angry cleric equates to a cleric who isn't going to do anything about the gaping wound in your chest when the chips are down. This alone is a tremendous incentive to play a cleric in an evil campaign -- so long as you are not easily replaceable, you are very firmly in a position of power over your companions because they really do NEED you. Also, keep in mind that a cleric of Shar can access the Darkness domain, from p. 62 of the FRCS. That nets access to several very fine spells that mesh nicely with the Shadow Weave Magic feat, including the lovely darkbolt spell. Magic of Faerun is similarly useful as a resource for people who like to play evil clerics, as there are a number of useful and/or powerful spells there. Animate dead in 3.5 is actually a much more attractive spell than it was in 3.0. Skeletons and Zombies both got a pretty serious revamp in the 3.5 Monster Manual. You can also control a larger number of Hit Dice in undead with the 3.5 version of animate dead. It's expensive to create undead, so you do need to be prepared to do some maintenance on them with your spontaneous inflict spells, but nothing too onerous. To help alleviate the paucity of cure spells available to an evil cleric (I readily admit that this is, in fact, a real inconvenience, since it effectively makes you choose between healing magic and all the other cool/powerful/useful spells available to the cleric class), I suggest grabbing the Scribe Scroll or Craft Wand feat. Make the party subsidize the creation of a wand of cure light wounds -- point out that it's in their best interests if they want to be able to get patched up after a fight, and also point out that if they don't pay, they're going to have to settle for whatever healing you feel like giving them out of the goodness of your heart. The above advice should take care of making the cleric effective. To make the character fun to play, I find that it usually helps to sit down and think about the character's personality. It yields some interesting questions. For example: What kind of person ends up worshipping, say, Shar? Why would ANYBODY worship a goddess who intends (putting it very bluntly) to annihilate everything that exists? Answering a question like this one leads to another couple of questions. To wit: "Well, okay. So this character worships Shar because (insert reason here). What OTHER aspects of the character's personality and outlook on life might this affect? What are the consequences of the character's faith, and how do I depict that through my roleplay?" So what you might turn up is a NE human male who worships Shar as a result of seeing his entire family and all his loved ones killed by a string of freak accidents, plagues, orc raids, catastrophic weather, and so forth. As a result of the grief and isolation incurred by these deaths, he turned to Shar . . . believing that he has a holy obligation to bring about the death of the entire cosmos in order to prevent others from suffering as he did. As a result, you'd have a NE madman who makes it his habit to give "mercy" to the poor and downtrodden of a major city, by murdering them under the cover of darkness. He particularly likes to kill infants because he figures he's doing his job best by killing people before they grow up and lose their innocence to the cruel, cruel world. A cleric like this might not even understand WHY he's evil, and choose to view assorted good-aligned religions (Ilmater's and Selūne's faiths spring to mind) as misguided groups of fools who claim to do good but actually ultimately contribute to the suffering of thousands of unwitting victims of their perverse philosophies. Hey, that's pretty good. I should use this guy as a villain sometime in my own campaign. He'd make my players' blood boil. Setting that aside . . . no, an evil party doesn't NEED a cleric. I have played in campaigns that had no magic-users at all (in the Forgotten Realms, as a matter of fact, and in Calimport at that, making this a wizardless, clericless, druidless, bardless party in one of the highest-magic areas of a high-magic setting). It was awkward, but we got by. Even if you don't go that far, bards and druids both have access to cure spells. You could easily play one of those. Rangers and paladins also get access to some small degree of healing magic. For that matter, you can get the party to buy a wand, and play a rogue yourself. Get Use Magic Device, a good Charisma score, and you can use a wand pretty reliably.
Arkenian 01-13-04, 07:00 PM	Malben covers things pretty well. As a red wizard in an evil party I have nothing but disdain for spell-beggars on general principles. We have two in our party, I'd love to kill . . . one of them . . . someday. But, well . . . playing them off eachother is near the only thing keeping me alive. And clerical services add up FAST. Not only would I risk having no healing for myself when I have a gaping hole in my chest, but I would have to come up with some way to handle healing services for our mercenaries, wouldn't be able to keep prisoners alive for questioning when knocked out . . . I mean, it's not exactly like I can just walk into a temple of mystra and buy a dozen healing potions, is it? The party would not, of course, ever survive without my services . . . but I am obliged to admit that I am willing to stay, indefinitely, my revenge for gross betrayal out of fear of what would happen if I gave the other cleric the power of being the only cleric in the party. Some other comments: Especially at low levels, cure minor wounds is your friend. There aren't any particular combat spells that you lose from them, and it allows you to stabilize someone until you have time to heal them . . . or not, as you please. Conserve yourself . . . this is advice for any cleric, but particularly in an evil party. People heal perfectly well by themselves. Don't be afraid to make the point that you don't have to heal someone with minor wounds. Finally, watch yourself. Your ability to heal or not as you please is a powerful incentive . . . but it's one most powerful if used sparingly. A cleric that makes a habit of refusing healing, especially if there's no obvious discernible reason, may quickly be determined to be more trouble than they're worth. There's a myth that clerics are invincible. They're not. -Lord Arzeth Tornin, Journeyman Red Wizard
Lanoitakude 01-13-04, 07:48 PM	Sorry, don't have my books with me, I'm at work but... Can evil clerics cast any cure/healing spells? I mean, if they channel negative energy, how are they going to cast a spell that channels positive energy? I do not remember off the top of my head whether or not evil clerics can cast healing, I do know that they can only spontan. cast inflicts. In an evil campaign, don't think of what character you can create to best help your allies (if you can call them that). Pick a character that you will have fun playing as. Maybe you want to let off some steam fireball-ing little children as your evil sorcerer? Maybe you like starting barfights just to kill everyone with your greataxe as a barbarian? The cannibalistic necromancer is always fun ("I'm telling you...if I eat his heart, I will get stronger! *casts Death Knell* TOLD YOU!") Just some thoughts
Luminous Crayon 01-13-04, 07:55 PM	You'd be surprised at the utility of evil clerics. Get your tainted little hands on a wand of a Cure Wounds spell, and your spell slots are completely freed up for other things. I'm fond of using evil clerics as baddies when I DM.
Wizard 01-13-04, 07:56 PM	Yes, evil clerics can heal. No, they cannot cast cure spells spontaneously. And no, clerics are never neccessary---kill whatever's trying to kill you fast enough, and you won't need a cleric. :)
Ogre Mage 01-13-04, 09:35 PM	Malben pretty much says it all. Clerics are powerful and what helps keep good clerics under wraps is the tendency to give up their spells to cure their friends. But evil clerics have no such ethics. You can do with your spells as you damn well please. Of course it's important to memorize some cure spells but an evil cleric is far more free to define themselves as something other than a walking first-aid station. I agree that you should coerce the party into helping pay for a cure wand. If they refuse, tell them flatly you won't heal them unless the mood strikes you. :devil: Evil clerics are formidable at all levels of play. As mentioned earlier, you have many of the advantages of the good cleric but without the ethical limitations. An evil party which includes a cleric is almost always a force to be feared.
BenjCano 01-13-04, 09:42 PM	In previous editions of D&D, the cleric needed to prepare his cure spells just like any other. Since the system of that time was much less flexible with regards to weapon usage, spell level caps, and spell powers, the cleric was shoehorned in his role as party healer, and he was often forced to devote most of his spell slots to various cures. 3.0 changed that by permitting good and some neutral clerics to generate the cure magic on the fly, but didn't address the fact that evil clerics would still need to devote part of their resources if they wanted to fill the role as party healer. Sean K. Reynolds has the Dual Spontaneous Casting (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/feats/dualspontaneouscasting.html) feat on his website, and I like it very much. Ask your DM if you can select it, and if you can, all your problems are solved.
Crunchy Frog 01-14-04, 02:39 PM	You could always take a druid, and fill most or all of your 0 and 1 level slots with Cure Minor Wounds and Cure Light Wounds. As others have suggested, you could get a cure wand if you need more. Not quite as good as a dedicated healing cleric, but this could get you a significant amount of healing without having to take a cleric.
adiaven 01-14-04, 03:37 PM	Thought about Druid, but I was told by the DM this would be primarily a city based campaign (atleast the begining) Right now I think Im gonna propose the following to my party members: - shadow weave wizard. powerful, yet no healing - shadow weave bard. less high end powerful, more adaptable, and has access to healing (via spells or wand) - barbarian. screw healing, use potions until the rogue has enough ranks in UMD Although Im still open to the evil cleric if anyone has any cool/interesting concepts or prestige classes...
Raist27m 01-14-04, 04:49 PM	Is an evil druid an option? Also, Animate Dead is a pretty good spell, depending on what you do with it. If you animate medium size skels/zombies, then you're suckin'. But it can animate a large (or larger) creature fairly well too. Just stick within your HD alotment, and you're set. Especially when you can spontaneously inflict to heal him up, and send him back into the fray. Just watch out for other casters trying to take over your creation.
Malben 01-14-04, 05:03 PM	An evil cleric of Gond with the Techsmith prestige class from Faiths and Pantheons could be enormously fun to play. But fundamentally, a mechanically interesting cleric who is also powerful is something you get by choosing a deity with good domains. You've indicated that you want to be able to use Enchantment/Illusion/Necromancy spells. This calls for you to have a domain or two which will grant spells that are not available to most clerics. The following are a few good choices: Charm Domain Darkness Domain Gnome Domain Illusion Domain Trickery Domain Tyranny Domain Undeath Domain Of these, only Gargauth has Charm among the evil deities of Faerūn. It's a nice domain, though, and Gargauth also has Trickery, which is also full of useful spells, including a lot of illusions. If you go for a cleric of Gargauth, you're playing a cleric of a devil who ascended to godhood, and who is the patron of betrayal and traitors. This means that you're supposed to double-cross people anytime it would benefit you to do so, and that you have access to the spells needed to do it. Can't ask for more fun than that, in an evil campaign. Tack on some levels in Divine Disciple, and you get bonuses to dealing with outsiders who serve Gargauth (there are lots of them, so this is actually a good idea), as well as an additional Domain (Evil or Law). Bane offers Tyranny. He also offers Destruction. Tyranny is nice if you like to use Enchantment and Necromancy spells that cause fear or dominate people. Destruction is just powerful in combat. It gets you Disintegrate as a clerical spell. Cyric is actually a pretty good choice, too. Destruction, Illusion, and Trickery are all on his domain list. Divine Disciple gets you all three, eventually. You can become very, very dangerous this way. But my choice, given what's been said about the other components of your party, would be a cleric of Kossuth, from Thay. Kossuth is just cool all around. The Fire domain is really very nice for offense, and Renewal lets you do some really cool tricks with healing. And the flavor is absolutely great. Imagine a Scientologist . . . who burns people alive. *pictures John Travolta running around dousing innocents with kerosene and then lighting them* *giggles softly*
Oakspar77777 01-14-04, 09:01 PM	Druids can Rock when EVIL in city settings. First off, Produce Flame and Flame Blade are awesome offence, and a Wand of CLW can handle all the healing (just "charge" 15GP for every use of it). Evil Druids can have some fun companions in cities . . . Dire Rats, Horses, Birds (like Vultures), and Dogs can all enter cities with impunity. Others like Snakes can be snuck in easily, and nothing like a poison bite from an unseen companion to get at the heart of being evil. Also, you can probably talk your DM into a Vermin Companion (at worst with the cost of a feat, but probably without if your RP it well). Using your Spider, Centipede, or Scorpion companion to sneak into bedrooms and assisnate (or at least weaken) your foes with posion is always a good tactic.
Iry 01-16-04, 03:28 PM	A wand of Regenerate Light Wounds is almost as effective at healing as one of Cure Light Wounds and can be used to cheat at healing and lie to your party all at the same time. If your party is low level, then they shouldn't know any better. Start out every battle with a casting from your wand of Regenerate Light Wounds upon whomever takes the greatest amount of damage. The average duration of this spell is a lot longer than most battles. Now, not only do you have the option of using a second or third charge on that tank to heal him up to full health, but you can actively pretend that this is the extent of your capabilities. Basically, you can pretend to be doing 'The best that you can', and it is ONLY the will of your god that allows you to 'save' people from disaster with your true healing spells.
Tehril 01-16-04, 04:34 PM	Might I suggest the dark path that my last evil character, Sekt (formerly Elric), chose to follow? You seem to enjoy associating with the shadows... yet find yourself at odds with Shar. Then worship whatever vile god appeals to you... but become one with the shadows. Thought the ECL can hurt, a Shade cleric is not something to be underestimated. Keep 1-2 spells per level dedicated to healing... and the rest dedicate to causing havoc. Choose wisely. - Setk (Elric), Shade Lord, Dark Templar of Hextor, Disciple of the Rose and Contemplative master of the Tyrant Lord... favoured of his lord and master, wielder of Hell Razor and vengeance bringer.
CdrcJsn 01-16-04, 07:18 PM	Why not consider a Bard? Yes, you get less spells, but you can still spontaneously cast healing magic, or utility/combat spells. Plus, since you said it will be an urban heavy campaign, a social bard would do great. You don't even need to multiclass, since the 3.5 bard rocks as is. Don't undersestimate bardic music (especially the fascinate and suggestion abilities). Bards also get great illusion and enchantment spells.
theetre 01-17-04, 10:02 PM	Inflict spells...are great! Touch attack = no armor...
Hengwrt Ellesmere 01-18-04, 05:33 PM	Not to undermine Malben's considered account of the joys of evil clericking, but I agree with Oakspar in that an evil druid would be quite fun to play, especially in an urban setting. Imagine him as a social Darwinist who sees everyone as simply animals trying to survive, and himself as the predator that culls the weak.
Ree 01-19-04, 06:49 AM	My group is starting an evil campaign this week :D We have one bard, one fighter/blackguard, one sorceror and one rogue. The healing role would be shared by the bard and blackguard. Both have cure wands in their arsenal. Hopefully, we can survive long enough to achieve our aim (which is the total domination of our homebrew island continent :D ) No doubt an evil cleric is very-very powerful but IMO the reason why there are no clerics in the party is that no one fancies the prospect of being a servant of an evil god. A good god is bad enough.
Nifft 01-19-04, 03:23 PM	I played an Evil Druid in a very short Evil campaign. It was quite fun. He was from Vassa and worshipped Auril, so he took Energy Sub (Cold) and shifted all his [Fire]-based Druid spells over to [Cold]. He saw himself as an alpha-male Wolf-spirit. Very amenable to working in a group for the "common good", so long as no-one questioned his authority. -- N
AstralFire 01-19-04, 03:41 PM	Worship that sadistic female god from FR... I forget her name, she's not in the FRCS. She's basically the goddess of sado-masochism. I believe her clerics spontaneously heal, in the interest of keeping victims alive.
Malben 01-19-04, 08:45 PM	Originally posted by Hengwrt Ellesmere Not to undermine Malben's considered account of the joys of evil clericking, but I agree with Oakspar in that an evil druid would be quite fun to play, especially in an urban setting. Imagine him as a social Darwinist who sees everyone as simply animals trying to survive, and himself as the predator that culls the weak. Oh, undermine away. Evil druids are great, and I could certainly see someone having fun with an evil druid in an urban campaign. Especially an evil were-rat sewer druid with hordes of little squeaky flesh-eating minions!
Malben 01-19-04, 08:46 PM	Originally posted by AstralFire Worship that sadistic female god from FR... I forget her name, she's not in the FRCS. She's basically the goddess of sado-masochism. I believe her clerics spontaneously heal, in the interest of keeping victims alive. You're thinking of Loviatar. And no, her clerics generally rebuke undead and spontaneously inflict wounds. Perhaps some of her (exceedingly rare) LN clergy might turn/cure, but even that is unlikely.
Arkenian 01-20-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by Malben You're thinking of Loviatar. And no, her clerics generally rebuke undead and spontaneously inflict wounds. Perhaps some of her (exceedingly rare) LN clergy might turn/cure, but even that is unlikely. That's actually not possible, Malben. Clerics of evil deities always rebuke, Only clerics of neutral deities get to choose, and then only if the deity hasn't expressed a preference. Evil druids can work in urban campaigns. In many real cities, the gradations between, say, the underdark and the sewers is small. Other evil druids may be in cities specifically to cause problems for the city. I would like to address a (common) fallacy about evil campaigns that your ability to help your companions doesn't matter. This is, to but it bluntly, dangerously mistaken. In most evil campaigns, Power Is Everything. Now power is a very interesting thing, sometimes subtle, sometimes not, that has many different meanings. That's a disclaimer. However, also, in most evil campaigns, power dynamic within the party is as important as power dynamic outside it. Power comes from two sources: One, is having raw ability to force people to do as you please, either by overt force (be it enchantment spells or 'do this or I swing my sword at you and you die'), or covert force (the power of persuasion). The other source of power comes from, quite simply, being too useful to be ignored casually. Since we're discussing clerics (and none of the clerics in my party read this board) I'll go with that, freely admitting that for most purposes, "Druid" is an acceptable substitute for cleric. Now, nobody needs a cleric, I DMed a party for a long time with no cleric, and I have both played and DMed in parties where the only cleric was multi-classed with cleric levels barely dominant. Evil temples need money just as much (or more) as good ones do, though it is used quite differently, and evil people need healing just as much. Healing potions are a must, even if you HAVE a cleric. But, healing potions aren't very cheap, and they don't help if you aren't able to drink them. The pure cost of healing means that, in general, in your party, friends of bob-the-evil-cleric will be stronger and more powerful than people who go out of their way to annoy him. This means, in the final analysis, that bob-the-evil-cleric is likely to have a disproportionate say in what goes on. Trust is a lacking commodity in evil parties, but typically the devil you know is a lot better than the devil you don't . . . and often party members become sufficiently reliant on their cleric that they really can't imagine what to do if the cleric simply says "No, I won't help you do that, unless you help me do <x> first." Or, "There are two options here, you can give me that ring of protection, or you can hope that it protects you enough that you're never in a situation where you need my healing to stay alive." Speaking as a PC in an evil campaign who is not a cleric, merely the implication that the cleric MIGHT get to that stage is usually enough to make me reconsider an action. YMMV. -Arzeth Tornin
PhaedrusXY 01-20-04, 12:59 AM	I think evil clerics are really fun to play, and can be very powerful. Check out this idea I had for one. I only got to play him once though... HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150894&highlight=possessor) The build is also a worshipper of Shar, which you might be interested in, since you mentioned making a cleric who uses the Shadow Weave.