Does it STACK? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does it STACK? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vineyard
06-17-07, 12:47 PM In the campaign I am currently in there has come to be a rather nasty arguement over the topic of Natural Armor. Two of the players have characters with a racial Natural Armor bonus. They finaly got to a city where they could buy a few magic items, so both of them went off looking for items to add to their Natural Armor. Onct this was said the table went up into a ball of insults and fights. The group is pretty split on this so I wanted to get a general take on how others feel on this topic and to see if anyone can difinitively show a rule stating one way or another.

My personal belief is that if you already have a racial Natural Armor bonus then you can use any item that would give a bonus to it.

P.S.
if you please, no stating of obvious things like,"but you could only have one item that gives the bonus or else you could only benefit from the higher of the two bonuses." I feel that everyone here would already agree on this fact.
Fmu78
06-17-07, 12:58 PM Here is a quote from the SRD.

A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses.

I bolded the revelant point. You cannot stack two natural armor bonuses.

However an Amulet of Natural Armor gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor which would stack with what you already have.
Drag0nUL
06-17-07, 01:00 PM As far as RAW is concerned, an item that grants natural armor, such as an Amulet of Natural Armor, stacks with the character's 'base' natural armor.
From the SRD:

Natural Armor Bonus

A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide.

Apparently somebody else posted the same thing while I was writing. Sorry.
DrMorganes
06-17-07, 02:16 PM As far as RAW is concerned, an item that grants natural armor, such as an Amulet of Natural Armor, stacks with the character's 'base' natural armor.
From the SRD:

Natural Armor Bonus

A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide.

Apparently somebody else posted the same thing while I was writing. Sorry.

Wrong.

Named bonuses don't stack, period. If you have the same named bonus from two sources, they overlap and only the highest bonus applies (c.f., the Does it Stack? article series in the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)). A kobold's +1 Natural Armor bonus does NOT stack with, for example, a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor for a total Natural Armor Bonus of +3. Since the Amulet's bonus is greater than the kobold's natural bonus, the Amulet's bonus applies for a total +2 Natural Armor Bonus.

My personal belief is that if you already have a racial Natural Armor bonus then you can use any item that would give a bonus to it.

Sure they can. Nothing prevents the kobold from wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor. He just needs to wear a +2 or better amulet to gain any benefit.
DS
06-17-07, 02:23 PM Wrong.

Named bonuses don't stack, period. If you have the same named bonus from two sources, they overlap and only the highest bonus applies (c.f., the Does it Stack? article series in the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)). A kobold's +1 Natural Armor bonus does NOT stack with, for example, a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor for a total Natural Armor Bonus of +3. Since the Amulet's bonus is greater than the kobold's natural bonus, the Amulet's bonus applies for a total +2 Natural Armor Bonus.

Sure they can. Nothing prevents the kobold from wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor. He just needs to wear a +2 or better amulet to gain any benefit.

Wow, this is completely wrong.
FMU78 got it right, an amulet of natural armor stacks with normal natural armor because it's an enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a kobold wearing a +1 amulet of natural armor would have a total of+2 natural armor bonus.
Tempest Stormwind
06-17-07, 02:26 PM Of course, these people who say it isn't stacking haven't looked at the amulet itself.

It provides an "enhancement bonus to natural armor". It does NOT provide a natural armor bonus.

Does a +2 suit of full plate (that is, +8 armor, +2 enhancement to armor) provide a +8 or a +10 boost to AC?

Thus, a kobold (+1 natural armor) wearing an amulet of natural armor +1 (+1 enhancement to natural armor) has an "effective" +2 natural armor bonus. (I say "effective" since both are ignored by attacks that ignore natural armor.)
Evil DM Mk3
06-17-07, 02:51 PM To confuse or to simplfy matters (we shall see...) the full explanation runns as follows. Named bonuses (including natural armour) do not stack. However very few (if any) items and spells exist that actualy grant natural armour. They insted provide an enchantment bonus to the natural armour score and in this respect most PCs have a bonus of +0.
vineyard
06-17-07, 03:14 PM So, from what I am seeing from those that agree that they do indeed stack (from items that give ENHANCEMENT bonus to natural armour), the players could get an amulet of natural armour or another item that gives an ENHANCEMENT to natural armour. Now as far as I can think of there is just the amulet of natural armour and a few item in the magic item compendium that give the enhancement right.
Evil DM Mk3
06-17-07, 04:32 PM :thumbsup:

(Oh but multiple enchantmet bonuses to natural armour do not stack with each other, so no amulet of natural armour and (say) braciers of natural armour)
vineyard
06-17-07, 04:43 PM very cute....a regular Fry & Laurie arent ya.
Evil DM Mk3
06-17-07, 05:42 PM What?
Neutronium_Dragon
06-17-07, 06:01 PM If it isn't granted by your race, it generally takes the form of an enhancement bonus to natural armor. That goes for items and spells.

Some templates increase your natural armor bonus, though. In this case, they just change whatever your natural armor bonus was to something else, and thus there's no stacking issue. You could apply several such templates and increase your natural armor bonus with every one of them, and then add an enhancement bonus to natural armor on top of that. (Although LA being what it is, this would probably be highly unplayable.)
vineyard
06-17-07, 07:33 PM What?

You dont know Fry & Laurie? And you are in the UK. You are either to young or not a native. Fry & Luarie were a comedy pair some years back. Steven Fry has been in numerous movies and is much currently on a show in the UK called "Kingdom". Hugh Laurie has also been in many things, currently he is Dr. House on "House, M.D.".
pmurray@bigpond.com
06-17-07, 09:30 PM However an Amulet of Natural Armor gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor which would stack with what you already have.

I get it now - a fine point, but an important one. So an item that gives an enhancement bonus to armour (eg, enchanted armour) will stack with an item that gives an enhancement bonus to natural armour. These two will stack for purposes of AC: (enhanced) armour bonus and (enhanced) natural armour. It's a tree structure.
Tempest Stormwind
06-17-07, 10:00 PM I get it now - a fine point, but an important one. So an item that gives an enhancement bonus to armour (eg, enchanted armour) will stack with an item that gives an enhancement bonus to natural armour. These two will stack for purposes of AC: (enhanced) armour bonus and (enhanced) natural armour. It's a tree structure.

Pretty much, yes. You do not have an 'enhancement bonus to AC'. You have an enhancement bonus to one of the elements of your AC (most typically armor, shield, and natural armor). Multiple enhancement bonuses to the same effect do not stack (so an amulet of natural armor doesn't stack with a barkskin spell).
Evil DM Mk3
06-18-07, 03:27 AM You dont know Fry & Laurie? And you are in the UK. You are either to young or not a native. Fry & Luarie were a comedy pair some years back. Steven Fry has been in numerous movies and is much currently on a show in the UK called "Kingdom". Hugh Laurie has also been in many things, currently he is Dr. House on "House, M.D.".

I know Steven Fry (QI man, QI) and Hugh Laurie (but have never seen Fry and Laurie) but do not get the referance vis-a-vi my pedantry.
maharai23
06-18-07, 04:15 AM An example, to clarify things:

Warhorse, heavy: Per entry in MM, creature receives a Natural Armor bonus of 4 to their AC. This applies in all situations where natural armor would apply (Base AC, Flat-footed AC, AC vs. Brilliant Energy weapon).

This horse is owned by a cavalier, who outfits it with Magical Full Plate Barding (+1). He really loves his horse, so he has an amulet of natural armor +3 made for this horse.

Now, the horse's AC looks like this:

10 (base) -1 (size), +1 (dex) + 9 (armor + enhancement bonus to armor) + 7 (Natural armor + enhancement bonus to natural armor), for a total of 26 AC.

If the cavalier's 9th level Druid friend were to cast Barkskin (providing an enhancement bonus to natural armor of +4) on the horse, it would only gain +1 AC (as the new bonus would overlap the previous enhancement bonus to natural armor).

In short, Shield, Armor, and Natural armor are almost treated like seperate stats, in that they regularly receive enhancement bonuses to them. Other bonuses to AC (Dodge, Deflection, Sacred, Profane, Circumstance, Competence, Luck, Insight, etc etc) generally don't receive enhancement bonuses to them, as they don't generally represent something physical.
DrMorganes
06-18-07, 09:49 AM Wow, this is completely wrong.
FMU78 got it right, an amulet of natural armor stacks with normal natural armor because it's an enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a kobold wearing a +1 amulet of natural armor would have a total of+2 natural armor bonus.

D'oh!

Of course. I've said many, many times that when discussing spells, magic items, etc, it helps to reference the actual item. I didn't.

Gods, but that's embarrassing!

**wipes egg from his face**
Phrennzy
06-18-07, 12:54 PM D'oh!

Of course. I've said many, many times that when discussing spells, magic items, etc, it helps to reference the actual item. I didn't.

Gods, but that's embarrassing!

**wipes egg from his face**

It takes a big man to:

1. Wear a pink shirt.
2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons.
3. Weep unashamedly.
4. Admit when he is wrong.

You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3.
Ayra
06-18-07, 04:27 PM It takes a big man to:

1. Wear a pink shirt.
2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons.
3. Weep unashamedly.
4. Admit when he is wrong.

You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3.
Does it stack if you do all four?
maharai23
06-18-07, 06:49 PM It takes a big man to:

1. Wear a pink shirt.
2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons.
3. Weep unashamedly.
4. Admit when he is wrong.

You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3.

It takes a big man for number 1 because a small man will get ridiculed for doing it.

The other 3, I'll buy.
StoneStokes
06-18-07, 07:49 PM It's not pink, it's salmon! SALMON!
Tempest Stormwind
06-18-07, 08:54 PM Only real men wear pink.
bob_the_great
06-18-07, 09:11 PM Thank you guys, I learned something today.

And pink is an awful color for most guys. I love purple and have a couple purple shirts, but pink is a no-no.
Salla
06-18-07, 10:52 PM Thank you guys, I learned something today.

And pink is an awful color for most guys. I love purple and have a couple purple shirts, but pink is a no-no.

Heh. A former manager of mine once grabbed me as soon as I walked in the store. "What color is this shirt?" he asked, indicating his own.
"Peach."
"THANK YOU." People had been calling it pink all day. Probably because he was gay.
windscar18
06-18-07, 10:55 PM Heh. A former manager of mine once grabbed me as soon as I walked in the store. "What color is this shirt?" he asked, indicating his own.
"Peach."
"THANK YOU." People had been calling it pink all day. Probably because he was gay.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Riiiiight, that makes a LOT of sense.
tharivol266
06-18-07, 11:06 PM Does it stack if you do all four?

yes because they are unnamed bonuses

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vineyard 06-17-07, 12:47 PM	In the campaign I am currently in there has come to be a rather nasty arguement over the topic of Natural Armor. Two of the players have characters with a racial Natural Armor bonus. They finaly got to a city where they could buy a few magic items, so both of them went off looking for items to add to their Natural Armor. Onct this was said the table went up into a ball of insults and fights. The group is pretty split on this so I wanted to get a general take on how others feel on this topic and to see if anyone can difinitively show a rule stating one way or another. My personal belief is that if you already have a racial Natural Armor bonus then you can use any item that would give a bonus to it. P.S. if you please, no stating of obvious things like,"but you could only have one item that gives the bonus or else you could only benefit from the higher of the two bonuses." I feel that everyone here would already agree on this fact.
Fmu78 06-17-07, 12:58 PM	Here is a quote from the SRD. A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. I bolded the revelant point. You cannot stack two natural armor bonuses. However an Amulet of Natural Armor gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor which would stack with what you already have.
Drag0nUL 06-17-07, 01:00 PM	As far as RAW is concerned, an item that grants natural armor, such as an Amulet of Natural Armor, stacks with the character's 'base' natural armor. From the SRD: Natural Armor Bonus A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Apparently somebody else posted the same thing while I was writing. Sorry.
DrMorganes 06-17-07, 02:16 PM	As far as RAW is concerned, an item that grants natural armor, such as an Amulet of Natural Armor, stacks with the character's 'base' natural armor. From the SRD: Natural Armor Bonus A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Apparently somebody else posted the same thing while I was writing. Sorry. Wrong. Named bonuses don't stack, period. If you have the same named bonus from two sources, they overlap and only the highest bonus applies (c.f., the Does it Stack? article series in the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)). A kobold's +1 Natural Armor bonus does NOT stack with, for example, a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor for a total Natural Armor Bonus of +3. Since the Amulet's bonus is greater than the kobold's natural bonus, the Amulet's bonus applies for a total +2 Natural Armor Bonus. My personal belief is that if you already have a racial Natural Armor bonus then you can use any item that would give a bonus to it. Sure they can. Nothing prevents the kobold from wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor. He just needs to wear a +2 or better amulet to gain any benefit.
DS 06-17-07, 02:23 PM	Wrong. Named bonuses don't stack, period. If you have the same named bonus from two sources, they overlap and only the highest bonus applies (c.f., the Does it Stack? article series in the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)). A kobold's +1 Natural Armor bonus does NOT stack with, for example, a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor for a total Natural Armor Bonus of +3. Since the Amulet's bonus is greater than the kobold's natural bonus, the Amulet's bonus applies for a total +2 Natural Armor Bonus. Sure they can. Nothing prevents the kobold from wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor. He just needs to wear a +2 or better amulet to gain any benefit. Wow, this is completely wrong. FMU78 got it right, an amulet of natural armor stacks with normal natural armor because it's an enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a kobold wearing a +1 amulet of natural armor would have a total of+2 natural armor bonus.
Tempest Stormwind 06-17-07, 02:26 PM	Of course, these people who say it isn't stacking haven't looked at the amulet itself. It provides an "enhancement bonus to natural armor". It does NOT provide a natural armor bonus. Does a +2 suit of full plate (that is, +8 armor, +2 enhancement to armor) provide a +8 or a +10 boost to AC? Thus, a kobold (+1 natural armor) wearing an amulet of natural armor +1 (+1 enhancement to natural armor) has an "effective" +2 natural armor bonus. (I say "effective" since both are ignored by attacks that ignore natural armor.)
Evil DM Mk3 06-17-07, 02:51 PM	To confuse or to simplfy matters (we shall see...) the full explanation runns as follows. Named bonuses (including natural armour) do not stack. However very few (if any) items and spells exist that actualy grant natural armour. They insted provide an enchantment bonus to the natural armour score and in this respect most PCs have a bonus of +0.
vineyard 06-17-07, 03:14 PM	So, from what I am seeing from those that agree that they do indeed stack (from items that give ENHANCEMENT bonus to natural armour), the players could get an amulet of natural armour or another item that gives an ENHANCEMENT to natural armour. Now as far as I can think of there is just the amulet of natural armour and a few item in the magic item compendium that give the enhancement right.
Evil DM Mk3 06-17-07, 04:32 PM	:thumbsup: (Oh but multiple enchantmet bonuses to natural armour do not stack with each other, so no amulet of natural armour and (say) braciers of natural armour)
vineyard 06-17-07, 04:43 PM	very cute....a regular Fry & Laurie arent ya.
Evil DM Mk3 06-17-07, 05:42 PM	What?
Neutronium_Dragon 06-17-07, 06:01 PM	If it isn't granted by your race, it generally takes the form of an enhancement bonus to natural armor. That goes for items and spells. Some templates increase your natural armor bonus, though. In this case, they just change whatever your natural armor bonus was to something else, and thus there's no stacking issue. You could apply several such templates and increase your natural armor bonus with every one of them, and then add an enhancement bonus to natural armor on top of that. (Although LA being what it is, this would probably be highly unplayable.)
vineyard 06-17-07, 07:33 PM	What? You dont know Fry & Laurie? And you are in the UK. You are either to young or not a native. Fry & Luarie were a comedy pair some years back. Steven Fry has been in numerous movies and is much currently on a show in the UK called "Kingdom". Hugh Laurie has also been in many things, currently he is Dr. House on "House, M.D.".
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-17-07, 09:30 PM	However an Amulet of Natural Armor gives you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor which would stack with what you already have. I get it now - a fine point, but an important one. So an item that gives an enhancement bonus to armour (eg, enchanted armour) will stack with an item that gives an enhancement bonus to natural armour. These two will stack for purposes of AC: (enhanced) armour bonus and (enhanced) natural armour. It's a tree structure.
Tempest Stormwind 06-17-07, 10:00 PM	I get it now - a fine point, but an important one. So an item that gives an enhancement bonus to armour (eg, enchanted armour) will stack with an item that gives an enhancement bonus to natural armour. These two will stack for purposes of AC: (enhanced) armour bonus and (enhanced) natural armour. It's a tree structure. Pretty much, yes. You do not have an 'enhancement bonus to AC'. You have an enhancement bonus to one of the elements of your AC (most typically armor, shield, and natural armor). Multiple enhancement bonuses to the same effect do not stack (so an amulet of natural armor doesn't stack with a barkskin spell).
Evil DM Mk3 06-18-07, 03:27 AM	You dont know Fry & Laurie? And you are in the UK. You are either to young or not a native. Fry & Luarie were a comedy pair some years back. Steven Fry has been in numerous movies and is much currently on a show in the UK called "Kingdom". Hugh Laurie has also been in many things, currently he is Dr. House on "House, M.D.". I know Steven Fry (QI man, QI) and Hugh Laurie (but have never seen Fry and Laurie) but do not get the referance vis-a-vi my pedantry.
maharai23 06-18-07, 04:15 AM	An example, to clarify things: Warhorse, heavy: Per entry in MM, creature receives a Natural Armor bonus of 4 to their AC. This applies in all situations where natural armor would apply (Base AC, Flat-footed AC, AC vs. Brilliant Energy weapon). This horse is owned by a cavalier, who outfits it with Magical Full Plate Barding (+1). He really loves his horse, so he has an amulet of natural armor +3 made for this horse. Now, the horse's AC looks like this: 10 (base) -1 (size), +1 (dex) + 9 (armor + enhancement bonus to armor) + 7 (Natural armor + enhancement bonus to natural armor), for a total of 26 AC. If the cavalier's 9th level Druid friend were to cast Barkskin (providing an enhancement bonus to natural armor of +4) on the horse, it would only gain +1 AC (as the new bonus would overlap the previous enhancement bonus to natural armor). In short, Shield, Armor, and Natural armor are almost treated like seperate stats, in that they regularly receive enhancement bonuses to them. Other bonuses to AC (Dodge, Deflection, Sacred, Profane, Circumstance, Competence, Luck, Insight, etc etc) generally don't receive enhancement bonuses to them, as they don't generally represent something physical.
DrMorganes 06-18-07, 09:49 AM	Wow, this is completely wrong. FMU78 got it right, an amulet of natural armor stacks with normal natural armor because it's an enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a kobold wearing a +1 amulet of natural armor would have a total of+2 natural armor bonus. D'oh! Of course. I've said many, many times that when discussing spells, magic items, etc, it helps to reference the actual item. I didn't. Gods, but that's embarrassing! wipes egg from his face
Phrennzy 06-18-07, 12:54 PM	D'oh! Of course. I've said many, many times that when discussing spells, magic items, etc, it helps to reference the actual item. I didn't. Gods, but that's embarrassing! wipes egg from his face It takes a big man to: 1. Wear a pink shirt. 2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons. 3. Weep unashamedly. 4. Admit when he is wrong. You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3.
Ayra 06-18-07, 04:27 PM	It takes a big man to: 1. Wear a pink shirt. 2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons. 3. Weep unashamedly. 4. Admit when he is wrong. You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3. Does it stack if you do all four?
maharai23 06-18-07, 06:49 PM	It takes a big man to: 1. Wear a pink shirt. 2. Ask the store clerk where they keep the tampons. 3. Weep unashamedly. 4. Admit when he is wrong. You should be proud that you have accomplished #4. Work on those other 3. It takes a big man for number 1 because a small man will get ridiculed for doing it. The other 3, I'll buy.
StoneStokes 06-18-07, 07:49 PM	It's not pink, it's salmon! SALMON!
Tempest Stormwind 06-18-07, 08:54 PM	Only real men wear pink.
bob_the_great 06-18-07, 09:11 PM	Thank you guys, I learned something today. And pink is an awful color for most guys. I love purple and have a couple purple shirts, but pink is a no-no.
Salla 06-18-07, 10:52 PM	Thank you guys, I learned something today. And pink is an awful color for most guys. I love purple and have a couple purple shirts, but pink is a no-no. Heh. A former manager of mine once grabbed me as soon as I walked in the store. "What color is this shirt?" he asked, indicating his own. "Peach." "THANK YOU." People had been calling it pink all day. Probably because he was gay.
windscar18 06-18-07, 10:55 PM	Heh. A former manager of mine once grabbed me as soon as I walked in the store. "What color is this shirt?" he asked, indicating his own. "Peach." "THANK YOU." People had been calling it pink all day. Probably because he was gay. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: Riiiiight, that makes a LOT of sense.
tharivol266 06-18-07, 11:06 PM	Does it stack if you do all four? yes because they are unnamed bonuses