Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thomwell 12-17-04, 11:39 AM	Yesterday's session my Halfling Rogue/Bard 6/6 was sent down a tunnel by the party to investigate whether or not it was safe for us to use as a hidey hole from 3 Fire Giants taking their 4 hell hounds for a walk. I'd spotted them coming our way from a long way off (I have a spot bonus of 23). I told the DM I was walking down the tunnel with upmost care and attention (also activating my invisibility ring). Upon entering a cavern I was told to role initiative and lo and behold above me circling the cavern was a Blue Dragon. I got to go first so I asked my DM if I thought the Dragon would be able to catch me if I retreated at top speed up the tunnel to which I was given a reply of 'no, the dragon will be able to get you before you get back to your friends (who were a 150 feet away).' Bearing this in mind I thought it best to prepare for the inevitable attack by fighting on the defensive (with Giant Bane feat and dodge this gives me an AC of 33) and calling for aid. The party responded by coming to my aid but on the dragons turn it cast some kind of spell on itself and to my surprise does not attack me. When I asked the DM why it didn't attack she tells me, couldn't see you...WTF! So in other words yes I could have retreated quite happily up the tunnel but instead I have now drawn myself and my party into fighting a blue dragon. In the end we negotiated with the dragon and for a 500gp diamond and it let us be, but not before the Dragon takes half my HP away (AC 33 just don't cut it anymore). Afterwards the DM tells me that I had set off an Alarm and that was why I had to roll initiative, she also said that because I only said I was being attentive and didn't specifically say I was looking for traps then I didn't get to roll for it. Two gripes: why do I have to specifically say I'm looking for a trap, surely if I say I'm walking down a tunnel with caution and attention this includes looking for traps? Why tell me it doesn't look like I can make a clean getaway when in actual fact I could have, but by then it's too late because I've dragged the whole party into the mess with me?
Caleb2004 12-17-04, 11:51 AM	1st gripe: you didn't set off a trap, you activated a spell. From the SDR Alarm sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the area or touches it. A creature who speaks the password (determined by the character at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. The character decides at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible. 2nd gripe: If the dragon were able to fly down to the opening, you would be dealing with an unavoidable breath attack. Halflings only have 20' move (with out other aid) so at a dead run you can at best cover 80', so you would still have another 70' to go.
Thoronmir 12-17-04, 12:00 PM	I asked my DM if I thought the Dragon would be able to catch me if I retreated at top speed up the tunnel to which I was given a reply of 'no, the dragon will be able to get you before you get back to your friends (who were a 150 feet away).' Afterwards the DM tells me that I had set off an Alarm and that was why I had to roll initiative, she also said that because I only said I was being attentive and didn't specifically say I was looking for traps then I didn't get to roll for it. Two gripes: why do I have to specifically say I'm looking for a trap, surely if I say I'm walking down a tunnel with caution and attention this includes looking for traps? Why tell me it doesn't look like I can make a clean getaway when in actual fact I could have, but by then it's too late because I've dragged the whole party into the mess with me?I agree with your DM on both counts. I would not assume that you were taking the time to check for traps if you merely said you were proceeding "with caution and attention." In such situations, it's incumbent on the player to make his actions clear. Of course, I’m assuming that you haven’t established a “code phrase” with your DM to cover this issue. In my game, the Rogue uses the term “skulk” to specifically include Moving Silently and Hiding as she moves. Since she’s defined the phrase in terms of the skills being used, she’s avoided the ambiguity you created for your DM. As for the Dragon, you had no reason to realize that it could not see you. Your question about retreating reads as if you were asking whether you could cover the distance between you and your friends before the Dragon could overtake you. That is an appropriate question since it involves only deciding whether your PC believed he could outrun the Dragon. But you seem to think the DM is obligated to guaranty results that depend on many other factors. As you learned, whether the Dragon could even see you was one such factor. There are countless reasons why the Dragon might not have pursued you. You expected your DM to predict the future for you when all she ought to do is explain the situation and let you decide how to react to it. Sounds to me like she did her job.
AngryJoe 12-17-04, 12:00 PM	I've had some experience with a DM who wanted the players to be VERY specific about their actions. Just be very clear on what you are doing at all times. Start making Search rolls as you travel down a dark tunnel, or Spot checks when you sneak through a dark forest. Don't wait for her to give you direction, take some initiative. Give her a list of what you are looking out for (traps, monsters, etc...) And as far as the dragon thing is concerned, I think your DM did fine. She described the situation to you and you reacted accordingly. You asked if you thought the dragon would catch you if you ran, and it would... she didn't give any indication that the dragon had spotted you. It's not her call to decide what your character makes of a particular situation. Moral of the story is: I don't think your DM hates you. Just think of it as a learning experience about how she runs her games. Edit: Haha, Thoronmir beat me to it!
Thomwell 12-17-04, 12:03 PM	1st gripe: you didn't set off a trap, you activated a spell. From the SDR Isn't there something that triggers it though, the way she was talking, sounded like it was something I might have detected. 2nd gripe: If the dragon were able to fly down to the opening, you would be dealing with an unavoidable breath attack. Halflings only have 20' move (with out other aid) so at a dead run you can at best cover 80', so you would still have another 70' to go. Dragon hadn't seen me as I was invisible, I reckon I could have got away.
XArchangelX 12-17-04, 12:17 PM	Isn't there something that triggers it though, the way she was talking, sounded like it was something I might have detected. The DC for it would have been 26, and its not a trap, its a ward, so she might just decided it didn't count as something you could detect, or maybe she rolled it for you and you didn't make the DC. Dragon hadn't seen me as I was invisible, I reckon I could have got away. Yeah, but you didn't ask if you could get away, you asked if it could catch you. Besides, you really shouldn't ask the DM what the outcome of a given situation will be, before it takes place. The DM is a guide, not a prohet. Ask for statements of fact, not the future.
Kialindo 12-17-04, 12:23 PM	Isn't there something that triggers it though, the way she was talking, sounded like it was something I might have detected. Dragon hadn't seen me as I was invisible, I reckon I could have got away. IF it was the alarm spell was what was used ... the only way for you to have seen it was a Detect Magic spell ... Alarm is basically a magical motion detector. You asked the DM: I got to go first so I asked my DM if I thought the Dragon would be able to catch me if I retreated at top speed up the tunnel to which I was given a reply of 'no, the dragon will be able to get you before you get back to your friends (who were a 150 feet away).' Well ... you thought the Dragon could see you ... and that the dragon was going to attack ... so my answer would also have been no .... Remember your character is not omnipotent and Hindsight is always 20/20
Lord Schpungus 12-17-04, 12:24 PM	What a powertrippy DM. of course careful and attentive means searching for traps. He needs to give you more information. You got hammered by his ego.
Krelios 12-17-04, 12:36 PM	What a powertrippy DM. of course careful and attentive means searching for traps. He needs to give you more information. You got hammered by his ego. "Careful and attentive" might entitle you to a spot/listen check you might otherwise have forgone, but unless you specify that you are checking for traps and where you are doing it, "careful and attentive" doesn't cover it. If the player wants to do something s/he needs to say so. I think your DM handled everything perfectly, you don't have the luxury of saying "well, of course I would have checked for traps if I had known one was there," or "I want to know the future, what will happen if I try to run back?" Just state what you're actually doing.
SmokeShadow 12-17-04, 01:18 PM	Thomwell, I have to agree with Thoronmir and AngryJoe, in that you should specify what you are doing. In fact, I think that your DM did some things well. From your DM's point of view, you're character is carefully making his way down the corridor, but what does that entail? Moving Silently, Hiding, looking for Traps? What else? You can't leave what you're doing up to the DM's judgement. Firstly, if your DM had told you that you could have gotten away because the Dragon can't see you, you would have known something you shouldn't have. Your character can't tell if the Dragon has spotted you. Secondly, your DM did you a big favor (or made a mistake) by completely ignoring the Dragon's Blindsense ability. Right, the Dragon *could* see you. Alarm has a 20 ft. radius (creating a 40ft. wide circle that you must be in), and the Dragon's Blindsense 'sees' 60ft., so by stepping to the edge of the Alarmed area, it'll know where you are. So really, IMO, your DM is trying to keep you alive.
a18ffe 12-17-04, 08:11 PM	I agree with the minority. Being 'careful' does not mean you are not looking for traps. It means you are taking your good old time, and making sure it's safe before you are taking a step. Sounds like searching for traps to me. Of course, the alarm spell is not really a trap. If it had a saving throw, then I would say it is. Being 'attentive' mean you are paying close attention to your environment. Generally, it means you are quiet, and trying not to make any noise moving. Good thing you told your DM that you were breathing, or else you would be suffocating. Obviously, you fell for a classic DM trap. You should clarify with him/her that when you are 'careful and attentive', you are searching for traps, and moving silently. I have a DM that doesn't trap the door, but the 1st square inside the room. One time I had to make a reflex check, for a trapped that I successfully searched for, to avoid falling into it. Doesn't that sound wrong to you?
StevenO 12-17-04, 09:33 PM	I agree with the majority that your DM is not out to kill you (or you'd already be dead.) I do however believe parts of the situation were misshandled. Your declaration of action when invesitating the tunnel was clear to me anyway. A stickler for the rules would require you to state that you are moving down the tunnel silently, trying to hide, and searching for traps (quite a mouthfull.) I respect opinions otherwise but believe that an alarms trigger area could be detected like any other magical trap. You never announce you are making spot or listen checks, they are reaction skills and should have given you a good chance to see the dragon at the earliest chance. Initiative also shouldn't have been rolled until combat actually began. Having said that, they DMs actions after encountering the dragon are perfectly acceptable and reasonable.
Kainy 12-17-04, 11:57 PM	Your DM's not out to kill you, he's just an uptight bastard. I hate DMs that require you to describe every little damn step of your action. "I drink from my cup, thinking about what the wizard has said" "You spill the liquid all over, as you neglected to pick it up, translate it into position, open your mouth, rotate the object until liquid filled your mouth, and then rotate it to level again! Ha! I winz0r! You are teh stupid player!!11!" :rolleyes:
CJ1720 12-18-04, 12:32 AM	Your 12 th level (rogue/bard 6/6) and you've never gone through this with your DM before? Did you start off at 12th? If you were checking for traps, moving silently and hiding, why were'nt you rolling dice for your attempts? If you're walking down a long tunnel that could be trapped at any given point, don't you have to roll every so many feet of the tunnel to signify checking that area? Doesn't the same thing go for moving silently and hiding? If you didn't say, give me the d20 so I can roll my trap check, move silently check and hide check, why would your dm do that for you? Don't y'all talk about these things during the game? When you spotted the fire giants with you spot +23, did you roll? Did the dm roll? How did that happen? Did you just say, "My character walks slightly ahead of the group and enjoys the view." Did you dm say, "The spot roll I made for you shows that you see fire giants." How does your group work game mechanics and why haven't you worked this out for a 12th level character before now?!? All of it seems a tad unbelievable, but I suppose every group has its quirks.
Steelwill 12-18-04, 03:08 PM	Wow, I have to say, this sounds like a massive amount of miscommunication. I think that if both you and the DM had been more specific, things would have been no problem. Technically a Dragon can pinpoint (mind you PIN POINT!) a creature up to 60 ft away. It could easily have known you were there, and Dragons are very difficult to surprise. On top of which, it may have been it's alarm spell that you triggered. You still would have had total concealment because it can't actually see you, but as far as knowing you are there, and the exact square you were standing in, that is easily true. The DM may need to either brush up on her dragon knowledge, or stop going easy on you, because she is guilty of one of the two. Honestly, if a DM is throwing a dragon, as an opponent of course, at you and is not trying to kill you, she is selling the dragon short. Seems she backpedaled and allowed you to negotiate with the beast instead of fighting, which is at least believable considering that Blues are Lawful Evil (meaning that it will likely stick to its bargain, but be ruthless in the dealing), vein, and love gems. Depending on its age category, you are dead right that an AC of 33 isn't going to stop it. Dragon's are among, if not the, deadliest adversaries a party can face in D&D, and they have all the abilities to back that up. As such they are also some of, if not the, most challenging creatures for a DM to utilize, and do the creature justice given the powers, abilities, and spells they wield. Some dragons, again depending on age category, can be charismatic enough and have enough ranks in Bluff to convince a PC that it is safer, warmer, and more confortable in its belly than outside. So no, I would definitely have to say your DM is not trying to kill you. My only advice would be this: In the future, try to be much more specific with what you intend to be doing, so it negates room for opposing interpretations and guesses about what's actually going on. As for the DM, either thank her for her kindness, or chide her for not studying dragons in the MM more carefully. My 2 cents.
Thomwell 12-20-04, 11:54 AM	Thanks all for replies, although not sure if all DMs should be out to kill their party...afterall would get a bit boring rolling up new characters evry week. I feel I will be able to use these new learnings in future encounters, especially those dealing with the workings of a DM's mind. In response to some queries about how are group is set up: 2 of the 7 are what I'd class as adavanced players (take it seriously and are mostly against messing around during gaming, one of these happens to be the DM). The rest of us are varying grades of intensity and aren't keen on doing homework such as drawing lists of procedures we follow when faced with certain situations (e.g. scouting down tunnels)....we do all try and keep up with our spells, feats and abilities though. So in future I think I will try to be more careful...but also think she didn't do me any favours by asking for an initiative roll (this is what made me think I'd been spotted and was about to meet my maker) Other question...the dragon moved and then did a full attack (claws and bite)...was this right or should it have only had the one attack? Thanks
BloodGod 12-20-04, 12:51 PM	It should've gotten only one attack, I believe. By the way, for what it's worth, I think that's crap and that the DM is out for you. -BG
MrkGrismer 12-20-04, 01:42 PM	Just to add: It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side. And that means a roll every 5 feet. If your rogue is not travelling very slowly then the rogue is not checking for traps.
Thomwell 12-21-04, 07:11 AM	Just to add: And that means a roll every 5 feet. If your rogue is not travelling very slowly then the rogue is not checking for traps. isn't a round something like 6 seconds? so yes moving slowly but then not unreasonably so...not like covering a 100 feet in 30mins...which is how long it would take to do all the rolls :eek:
Thomwell 12-21-04, 07:12 AM	It should've gotten only one attack, I believe. By the way, for what it's worth, I think that's crap and that the DM is out for you. -BG now i'm really worried..the DM is my girlfriend!
anshar 12-21-04, 10:54 AM	now i'm really worried..the DM is my girlfriend! Well, that could make a difference. While I believe she did most things correctly (except perhaps the init roll and blindsense), she might be going a little hard on you. She probably isn't doing it to be mean. She might not even realize she's doing it. It could just be that she wants to prove the rest of the group that she's not going easy on you because you're her boyfriend. It happens all too often when the roles are reversed and it's the boyfriend/husband who's the DM. Just my :twocents:
Dorn_the_barbarian 12-21-04, 01:29 PM	Sounds like a much better job than an old dm I used to game with a few years back. He was a good dm and all,... but for some reason or another, he seemed intent on turning my lvl 8 Elf Rouge into a unic....... So, yeah, half of your HP and a diamond is a pretty fair trade,... lol
CJ1720 12-21-04, 07:04 PM	T 2 of the 7 are what I'd class as adavanced players (take it seriously and are mostly against messing around during gaming, one of these happens to be the DM). The rest of us are varying grades of intensity and aren't keen on doing homework such as drawing lists of procedures we follow when faced with certain situations (e.g. scouting down tunnels)....we do all try and keep up with our spells, feats and abilities though. Has it ever occurred to you that your DM is just trying to get you to engage more in the game instead of messing around and relying on her to do the work you should be doing to keep your character alive for you? It's a game and EVERYONE should have fun playing it -- including the DM. She's got a lot to do without trying to figure out when your rogue should be searching for traps and remembering to make the rolls.
spasheridan 12-21-04, 07:40 PM	When my rogue is "scouting" I say the following: "Sable activates his cloak of the archnid. I am climbing the wall, moving slowly, spotting, searching, hiding, listning, and moving silently. My 1st check for these are X, X, X, X, and X. I want to advance to this point on the map. Tell me when I see something or you need another roll" What happens next is either: "OK, you get to that point, let me draw some more of the map" or "You notice a trap / monster" or "You fail to notice a trap / monster, make a saving throw" If I ever fail to say those things and move my minature into an area with a trap or monster, well... let's just say I've encountered a symbol of death the wrong way and it isn't pretty. You learn quick that way.
MattB 12-21-04, 07:40 PM	Just to point out those mentioning the Dragons Blindsense should have spotted the Rogue, considering that the dragon was described as 'flying around' at the top a a cavern I would think it quite probable that the cavern has to be fairly vast and that the dragon could well have been much further away than the range of its blindsense.
TheGreenGriffon 12-21-04, 07:53 PM	The DM said the Dragon didnt see you but was responding to an Alarm spell that you had triggered. My question is when does a simple Invisibility spell fool any but the most young and naive dragons?! It pretty much states in the Monster Manual as such that dragons senses are so accute that invisibility does little to conceal your presence from one. Dont all Dragons have Blindsight anyways? Now this supports the monsters side more than yours but its obvious your DM is telling you whatever he needs to so that you and your party fight his monster including changing facts after they happen so that you will. You could have easilly gotten away of the Dragon truly couldnt see you. Also you could have also seen whether the Dragon could actually see you or not instead of just knowing you were there.
Thomwell 12-22-04, 10:59 AM	Has it ever occurred to you that your DM is just trying to get you to engage more in the game instead of messing around and relying on her to do the work you should be doing to keep your character alive for you? It's a game and EVERYONE should have fun playing it -- including the DM. She's got a lot to do without trying to figure out when your rogue should be searching for traps and remembering to make the rolls. I take your point, maybe I don't have that level of comittment to play the game to that level...should I stop going? It's not as if we mess around all the time and most of our sessions are on a weeknight so most of us have been at work all day and would like to relax a little. If players were all as perfect as DMs...who would be left to play?
Rodak_the_Dim 12-22-04, 12:09 PM	I take your point, maybe I don't have that level of comittment to play the game to that level... ...If players were all as perfect as DMs...who would be left to play? There! Now you are understanding the TRUE nature of D&D. It is not JUST A GAME! I suppose your mother was JUST A MOTHER. It is a trancendental experience to take you to a higher plane of existance that allows you to become a greater being commited ONLY to the concept of the purity of the game! True practitioneers of D&D reach a level where they NEVER make a mistake in game or out. Or at least don't admit it! Sorry :weep: I need to get another cup of coffee. My sarcasm glands are overperforming at the moment. DISCLAIMER: The above post is the result of a low-caffeine state and is not neccesarily representative of the posters true feelings or anyone elses for that matter. Please read with the appropriate grain of salt. Now where did I leave that coffee cup?
Aeromus 12-22-04, 12:12 PM	Dragons have like 300 feet blindsight/tremorsense.... how did it not see you? Why is your toon not, a smoldering husk of electrified dead halfling? Oh I know...it's because the DM didn't want to kill you. If a player did what you did in my game, he'd have been dragon chow.
CJ1720 12-22-04, 07:07 PM	I take your point, maybe I don't have that level of comittment to play the game to that level...should I stop going? It's not as if we mess around all the time and most of our sessions are on a weeknight so most of us have been at work all day and would like to relax a little. If players were all as perfect as DMs...who would be left to play? I don't think you do take my point, but alas and alack you can lead a horse to water, but only drown it, as they say. What you're saying and doing is like taking a road trip with someone, where you sit in the backseat of the driver's car, eating the sandwiches the driver packed, drinking the pop that the drive bought cooled in the icechest that the driver brought, listening to the tunes on your headseat that the driver provided, refusing to check the map when the driver asked and then complaining when you don't end up where you wanted to go. YOU ARE NOT HELPING. YOU ARE ONLY ALONG FOR THE RIDE. Quit going? How passive aggressive is that? Once again, I'll ask you these questions: When you spotted the fire giants, who rolled the dice for the spot check? Who said where your character was? How were the mechanics of the game implemented? Once again, I'll ask you these questions: You are level 12. Did you start at level 12? Is this the first time your rogue/bard checked a corridor for traps? If not, how did it work before? What you're describing is either gross miscommunication between yourself and the dm or you just don't want to play your part as player.
MattB 12-22-04, 09:17 PM	Dragons have like 300 feet blindsight/tremorsense.... how did it not see you? 30'/Age category in 3.0,or 60' flat in 3.5...