Does Mystic Theurge count as arcane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does Mystic Theurge count as arcane? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
11-01-06, 02:15 PM If I have a level of mystic theurge, and then I take another prc that let's me advance one of my arcane spellcasting classes, can I choose to advance my theurge class and get the benefits of advancing both an arcane and a divine class at once?

Or do I have to choose a class that let's me advance any one spellcasting class (if there is one?)
Witch
11-01-06, 02:19 PM Mystic Theurge has no spell progression, so you cannot choose to increase its spell progression.

It itself instead improves the spell progression of two other classes.
Millennium
11-01-06, 02:19 PM The Mystic Theurge doesn't have a spellcasting progression of its own, as wizards or sorcerers (or assassins or blackguards, for that matter) do. It merely improves existing progressions. Therefore, it doesn't count as an arcane or divine spellcasting class, and you can't improve it by going through other PrCs.
FrostHammer
11-01-06, 02:36 PM Shucks. I suppose it would of been broken had it worked that way huh?
Witch
11-01-06, 03:31 PM Indeed.
trapspringer
11-01-06, 10:27 PM It may be broken as it stands, though wizard's sure doesn't think so.
ressurrector
11-01-06, 11:08 PM for what you loose to get into it, it's not that bad.

The real isssues come in when you apply it to classes like Sublime Chord and Ur Priest. (10 level PrCs that give 9th level spells)
The White Sorcerer
11-02-06, 12:01 AM It may be broken as it stands, though wizard's sure doesn't think so.
Mystic theurge broken? Hardly.
FrostHammer
11-02-06, 12:31 AM What's the pros and cons of the mystic theurge class?
The White Sorcerer
11-02-06, 12:36 AM What's the pros and cons of the mystic theurge class?
These. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060908a)
Seerow
11-02-06, 12:41 AM Cons of the Mystic Theurge class:

If you're a Fighter, and you take Leadership. You get a Wizard Cohort. Your Wizard Cohort takes Leadership, and gets a Cleric Cohort.

Your cohorts are bringing more to the table than the Mystic Theurge.
FrostHammer
11-02-06, 01:05 AM That's assuming your DM allows Leadership at all. I'm certain the environment I'm playing won't allow what you're suggesting to happen.
TwistedPuppy
11-02-06, 01:43 PM I saw on a thread somewhere on these boards a comment that a cohort would never have Leadership as a feat- if they had it, they'd no longer be a cohort (follower). Couldn't agree more.

A lot of stories of that sort of abuse end with "and that's why I don't allow PCs to have the Leadership feat."

As to the cons of the Mystic Theurge class, you're trading out some higher level spells to have the versatility to cast both arcane and divine spells. If you have wizard and cleric levels, for example, you have two different primary attribute scores that affect your bonus spells and Save DCs.

A pro for the different attribute scores is that if you had,say a high INT and mediocre WIS, you could use the divine spells for utility, healing, and buffing spells while using the wizard slots for combat type spells (with a higher Save DC)
Seerow
11-02-06, 01:56 PM That's assuming your DM allows Leadership at all. I'm certain the environment I'm playing won't allow what you're suggesting to happen.

Yes, but he might not let you play a Mystic Theurge either. I was just making a point.

I saw on a thread somewhere on these boards a comment that a cohort would never have Leadership as a feat- if they had it, they'd no longer be a cohort (follower). Couldn't agree more.

A lot of stories of that sort of abuse end with "and that's why I don't allow PCs to have the Leadership feat."

In that case make it a Cleric with a Wizard cohort. Comes out better actually, because your casters have higher levels, and nobody cares about the Fighter. Seriously.
SeattleLightning
11-02-06, 01:59 PM Speaking as a player in a campaign where we always start at level 1 and work our way up, they're also hard to get going. A level 3 wizard/level 3 cleric of boccob is a lot more useless than a 6th level fighter, 6th level cleric, or 6th level anything for that matter. Of course, if you're just buliding a mid to high level mystic theurge, that's another story.
FrostHammer
11-03-06, 02:47 AM Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right? Maybe cleric/beguiler to begin with...
The White Sorcerer
11-03-06, 11:55 AM Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right?
That takes care of one problem, yes. Being a wizard/archivist or a sorcerer/shugenja would solve it, too.
Cifer
11-03-06, 11:56 AM Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right?
If you've got two 18s, you might just want to go straight cleric (Wis&Str) or druid (Con&Wis) if it's about power. The other two disadvantages of the MT are his low hitpoints and only one good save if you compare him to the cleric - and he loses three levels of spellcasting to the wizard. You will definitely have that "if I were pure wizard I'd have now..." feeling at every level up.

Finally, the class is at it's worst in the high levels since it ran out of MT levels, meaning you've got 13 wiz levels and 13 cle levels when you are level 16- one of your progressions will suffer now when you move the way to L20.
FrostHammer
11-03-06, 02:14 PM Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right?
The White Sorcerer
11-03-06, 05:07 PM Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right?
Only after you've reached level 21.
Seerow
11-03-06, 05:18 PM Well you COULD do something like...

Wizard1/Druid4/Mystic Theurge5/Arcane Heirophant10

Feats:
1(H): Heighten Spell
1: Earth Sense
3: Earth Spell

Earth Spell lets you use Heighten Spell to cast a spell as if it were one level higher than it actually was. So you heighten a cantrip to 1st level, and it is treated as 2nd level for all purposes. This satisfies the "Must be able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" requirement.

Now you cast as a 16th level Wizard, a 19th level Druid, and Wildshape as an 14th level Druid. You also have a single companion with the benefits of an 11th level Wizard and 14th level Druid combined.
FrostHammer
11-03-06, 05:44 PM I don't have access to many books. So no Arcane Hierophant
Seerow
11-03-06, 06:45 PM Races of the Wild for Arcane Hierophant. Races of Stone for Earth Spell. That's two books.
The White Sorcerer
11-03-06, 07:28 PM Earth Spell lets you use Heighten Spell to cast a spell as if it were one level higher than it actually was. So you heighten a cantrip to 1st level, and it is treated as 2nd level for all purposes. This satisfies the "Must be able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" requirement.
I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that.
Quixon
11-03-06, 07:45 PM Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right?

Yes 10 level Pc's allow you to continue, but just so you know, epic MT only give ONE class a +1 caster level, not both anymore, so each level you take of it you get to pick one class to go up a level. Not very impressive at that point.
Seerow
11-03-06, 07:49 PM I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that.

The prereq is "Cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" the feats give you 2nd level Arcane Spells. Where is this wrong?
Salla
11-03-06, 08:23 PM The prereq is "Cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" the feats give you 2nd level Arcane Spells. Where is this wrong?

You're still casting a 0th level spell, you're just applying a metamagic feat or two to it. It may use a 1st or 2nd level spell slot (not familiar with Earth Spell), but it's still a 0 level spell.
Seerow
11-03-06, 08:33 PM You're still casting a 0th level spell, you're just applying a metamagic feat or two to it. It may use a 1st or 2nd level spell slot (not familiar with Earth Spell), but it's still a 0 level spell.

Heighten Spell explicitly changes the effective level of the spell. Unlike other metamagic feats, which change the slot you cast it in, but not other effects based on spell level, such as save DCs, and the ability to get through effects like Globe of Invulnerability, Heighten Spell does. That's the entire point of the feat.

So you are casting a 2nd level spell. Period.
FrostHammer
11-04-06, 01:47 AM Yes 10 level Pc's allow you to continue, but just so you know, epic MT only give ONE class a +1 caster level, not both anymore, so each level you take of it you get to pick one class to go up a level. Not very impressive at that point.

Where did it say that?
High Octane
11-04-06, 11:53 AM I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that.
Precocious spellcaster, or Precocious apprentice, cant remember the name. Complete Arcane. Taken at first level. Gives you a 2nd level spell slot, but you have to roll a caster level check to cast it. Arcane pre-requisite fulfilled.
Stormbrand
11-04-06, 01:07 PM Heighten Spell explicitly changes the effective level of the spell. Unlike other metamagic feats, which change the slot you cast it in, but not other effects based on spell level, such as save DCs, and the ability to get through effects like Globe of Invulnerability, Heighten Spell does. That's the entire point of the feat.

So you are casting a 2nd level spell. Period.

Heighten spell explicitly makes the spell work as if it was higher level. It is still metamagic. The metamagic effect SIMULATES being higher level.

So you are casting a metamagiced 0 level spell. Period.
The White Sorcerer
11-04-06, 01:26 PM Precocious spellcaster, or Precocious apprentice, cant remember the name. Complete Arcane. Taken at first level. Gives you a 2nd level spell slot, but you have to roll a caster level check to cast it. Arcane pre-requisite fulfilled.
Spells. The class requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells. One spell isn't enough.
High Octane
11-04-06, 03:06 PM Spells. The class requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells. One spell isn't enough.
If you have more than one second level spell in your spellbook, you have the abilty to cast spells.
The White Sorcerer
11-04-06, 04:57 PM If you have more than one second level spell in your spellbook, you have the abilty to cast spells.
Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast one specific spell.
Reversefigure4
11-04-06, 05:02 PM No matter how much you jigger and poke the rules, you still need the DMs permission to take MT. Any sane DM is going to keep it to the original spirit of the prereqs - at least 3 levels in a divine casting class and 3 levels in an arcane.
Quixon
11-06-06, 07:24 PM Where did it say that?

Sorry I am at work but its posted on this website somewhere, I will try and find it when i get a chance, unless somebody else knows where its at and has the link....
Salla
11-07-06, 12:24 AM Sorry I am at work but its posted on this website somewhere, I will try and find it when i get a chance, unless somebody else knows where its at and has the link....

Epic Insights, whereever that is around here ... :)
Vaelan
11-07-06, 01:20 AM Here is a quote from the feat...

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above...

If you claim that Precocious Apprentice meets the qualificaiton of the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, then the feat does nothing. That itself is a pretty clear sign that it does not, in fact, give you the ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

Also, a Cleric 3 / Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice can cast 2nd-level spells and thus loses the benefit of the feat. It makes no difference, according to the feat's description, that the 2nd-level spells that you are capable of casting happen to be divine.
DarkRhystar
11-07-06, 01:26 AM Cons of the Mystic Theurge class:

If you're a Fighter, and you take Leadership. You get a Wizard Cohort. Your Wizard Cohort takes Leadership, and gets a Cleric Cohort.

Your cohorts are bringing more to the table than the Mystic Theurge.

That's so true it's painful.

MT's are about as durable as a wet paperbag with enough MAD to make even a Monk cringe.
Cifer
11-07-06, 01:31 PM MT's are about as durable as a wet paperbag with enough MAD to make even a Monk cringe.
Only if you don't bring in enough splatbooks. *g*
Wizard/Archivist and Shugenja/sorc have already been mentioned.
DarkRhystar
11-07-06, 04:09 PM Only if you don't bring in enough splatbooks. *g*
Wizard/Archivist and Shugenja/sorc have already been mentioned.

Aw, that's not fair. More splat books makes everything better. :P
Cifer
11-07-06, 04:35 PM Aw, that's not fair.
Did I ever pretend to be?

More splat books makes everything better.
You didn't read the BoVD, did you?
High Octane
11-08-06, 03:01 AM Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast one specific spell.
*flip**flip**flip**flip**flip**flip**fli p**flip**flip**flip**flip**flip**flip**f lip**flip**flip*

.....well damn, you are correct, technically. That is going to cheese off my friend who was using that feat for a few multiclassing loopholes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 11-01-06, 02:15 PM	If I have a level of mystic theurge, and then I take another prc that let's me advance one of my arcane spellcasting classes, can I choose to advance my theurge class and get the benefits of advancing both an arcane and a divine class at once? Or do I have to choose a class that let's me advance any one spellcasting class (if there is one?)
Witch 11-01-06, 02:19 PM	Mystic Theurge has no spell progression, so you cannot choose to increase its spell progression. It itself instead improves the spell progression of two other classes.
Millennium 11-01-06, 02:19 PM	The Mystic Theurge doesn't have a spellcasting progression of its own, as wizards or sorcerers (or assassins or blackguards, for that matter) do. It merely improves existing progressions. Therefore, it doesn't count as an arcane or divine spellcasting class, and you can't improve it by going through other PrCs.
FrostHammer 11-01-06, 02:36 PM	Shucks. I suppose it would of been broken had it worked that way huh?
Witch 11-01-06, 03:31 PM	Indeed.
trapspringer 11-01-06, 10:27 PM	It may be broken as it stands, though wizard's sure doesn't think so.
ressurrector 11-01-06, 11:08 PM	for what you loose to get into it, it's not that bad. The real isssues come in when you apply it to classes like Sublime Chord and Ur Priest. (10 level PrCs that give 9th level spells)
The White Sorcerer 11-02-06, 12:01 AM	It may be broken as it stands, though wizard's sure doesn't think so. Mystic theurge broken? Hardly.
FrostHammer 11-02-06, 12:31 AM	What's the pros and cons of the mystic theurge class?
The White Sorcerer 11-02-06, 12:36 AM	What's the pros and cons of the mystic theurge class? These. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060908a)
Seerow 11-02-06, 12:41 AM	Cons of the Mystic Theurge class: If you're a Fighter, and you take Leadership. You get a Wizard Cohort. Your Wizard Cohort takes Leadership, and gets a Cleric Cohort. Your cohorts are bringing more to the table than the Mystic Theurge.
FrostHammer 11-02-06, 01:05 AM	That's assuming your DM allows Leadership at all. I'm certain the environment I'm playing won't allow what you're suggesting to happen.
TwistedPuppy 11-02-06, 01:43 PM	I saw on a thread somewhere on these boards a comment that a cohort would never have Leadership as a feat- if they had it, they'd no longer be a cohort (follower). Couldn't agree more. A lot of stories of that sort of abuse end with "and that's why I don't allow PCs to have the Leadership feat." As to the cons of the Mystic Theurge class, you're trading out some higher level spells to have the versatility to cast both arcane and divine spells. If you have wizard and cleric levels, for example, you have two different primary attribute scores that affect your bonus spells and Save DCs. A pro for the different attribute scores is that if you had,say a high INT and mediocre WIS, you could use the divine spells for utility, healing, and buffing spells while using the wizard slots for combat type spells (with a higher Save DC)
Seerow 11-02-06, 01:56 PM	That's assuming your DM allows Leadership at all. I'm certain the environment I'm playing won't allow what you're suggesting to happen. Yes, but he might not let you play a Mystic Theurge either. I was just making a point. I saw on a thread somewhere on these boards a comment that a cohort would never have Leadership as a feat- if they had it, they'd no longer be a cohort (follower). Couldn't agree more. A lot of stories of that sort of abuse end with "and that's why I don't allow PCs to have the Leadership feat." In that case make it a Cleric with a Wizard cohort. Comes out better actually, because your casters have higher levels, and nobody cares about the Fighter. Seriously.
SeattleLightning 11-02-06, 01:59 PM	Speaking as a player in a campaign where we always start at level 1 and work our way up, they're also hard to get going. A level 3 wizard/level 3 cleric of boccob is a lot more useless than a 6th level fighter, 6th level cleric, or 6th level anything for that matter. Of course, if you're just buliding a mid to high level mystic theurge, that's another story.
FrostHammer 11-03-06, 02:47 AM	Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right? Maybe cleric/beguiler to begin with...
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 11:55 AM	Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right? That takes care of one problem, yes. Being a wizard/archivist or a sorcerer/shugenja would solve it, too.
Cifer 11-03-06, 11:56 AM	Well assuming you have the stats to have 18 wis and int, then mystic theurge isn't actually that bad right? If you've got two 18s, you might just want to go straight cleric (Wis&Str) or druid (Con&Wis) if it's about power. The other two disadvantages of the MT are his low hitpoints and only one good save if you compare him to the cleric - and he loses three levels of spellcasting to the wizard. You will definitely have that "if I were pure wizard I'd have now..." feeling at every level up. Finally, the class is at it's worst in the high levels since it ran out of MT levels, meaning you've got 13 wiz levels and 13 cle levels when you are level 16- one of your progressions will suffer now when you move the way to L20.
FrostHammer 11-03-06, 02:14 PM	Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right?
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 05:07 PM	Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right? Only after you've reached level 21.
Seerow 11-03-06, 05:18 PM	Well you COULD do something like... Wizard1/Druid4/Mystic Theurge5/Arcane Heirophant10 Feats: 1(H): Heighten Spell 1: Earth Sense 3: Earth Spell Earth Spell lets you use Heighten Spell to cast a spell as if it were one level higher than it actually was. So you heighten a cantrip to 1st level, and it is treated as 2nd level for all purposes. This satisfies the "Must be able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" requirement. Now you cast as a 16th level Wizard, a 19th level Druid, and Wildshape as an 14th level Druid. You also have a single companion with the benefits of an 11th level Wizard and 14th level Druid combined.
FrostHammer 11-03-06, 05:44 PM	I don't have access to many books. So no Arcane Hierophant
Seerow 11-03-06, 06:45 PM	Races of the Wild for Arcane Hierophant. Races of Stone for Earth Spell. That's two books.
The White Sorcerer 11-03-06, 07:28 PM	Earth Spell lets you use Heighten Spell to cast a spell as if it were one level higher than it actually was. So you heighten a cantrip to 1st level, and it is treated as 2nd level for all purposes. This satisfies the "Must be able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" requirement. I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that.
Quixon 11-03-06, 07:45 PM	Run out of MT levels? Umm...you're allowed to keep taking prc levels iirc if the prc has at least a 10 level progression right? Yes 10 level Pc's allow you to continue, but just so you know, epic MT only give ONE class a +1 caster level, not both anymore, so each level you take of it you get to pick one class to go up a level. Not very impressive at that point.
Seerow 11-03-06, 07:49 PM	I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that. The prereq is "Cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" the feats give you 2nd level Arcane Spells. Where is this wrong?
Salla 11-03-06, 08:23 PM	The prereq is "Cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" the feats give you 2nd level Arcane Spells. Where is this wrong? You're still casting a 0th level spell, you're just applying a metamagic feat or two to it. It may use a 1st or 2nd level spell slot (not familiar with Earth Spell), but it's still a 0 level spell.
Seerow 11-03-06, 08:33 PM	You're still casting a 0th level spell, you're just applying a metamagic feat or two to it. It may use a 1st or 2nd level spell slot (not familiar with Earth Spell), but it's still a 0 level spell. Heighten Spell explicitly changes the effective level of the spell. Unlike other metamagic feats, which change the slot you cast it in, but not other effects based on spell level, such as save DCs, and the ability to get through effects like Globe of Invulnerability, Heighten Spell does. That's the entire point of the feat. So you are casting a 2nd level spell. Period.
FrostHammer 11-04-06, 01:47 AM	Yes 10 level Pc's allow you to continue, but just so you know, epic MT only give ONE class a +1 caster level, not both anymore, so each level you take of it you get to pick one class to go up a level. Not very impressive at that point. Where did it say that?
High Octane 11-04-06, 11:53 AM	I'm not sure a lot of DMs would accept that. Precocious spellcaster, or Precocious apprentice, cant remember the name. Complete Arcane. Taken at first level. Gives you a 2nd level spell slot, but you have to roll a caster level check to cast it. Arcane pre-requisite fulfilled.
Stormbrand 11-04-06, 01:07 PM	Heighten Spell explicitly changes the effective level of the spell. Unlike other metamagic feats, which change the slot you cast it in, but not other effects based on spell level, such as save DCs, and the ability to get through effects like Globe of Invulnerability, Heighten Spell does. That's the entire point of the feat. So you are casting a 2nd level spell. Period. Heighten spell explicitly makes the spell work as if it was higher level. It is still metamagic. The metamagic effect SIMULATES being higher level. So you are casting a metamagiced 0 level spell. Period.
The White Sorcerer 11-04-06, 01:26 PM	Precocious spellcaster, or Precocious apprentice, cant remember the name. Complete Arcane. Taken at first level. Gives you a 2nd level spell slot, but you have to roll a caster level check to cast it. Arcane pre-requisite fulfilled. Spells. The class requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells. One spell isn't enough.
High Octane 11-04-06, 03:06 PM	Spells. The class requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells. One spell isn't enough. If you have more than one second level spell in your spellbook, you have the abilty to cast spells.
The White Sorcerer 11-04-06, 04:57 PM	If you have more than one second level spell in your spellbook, you have the abilty to cast spells. Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast one specific spell.
Reversefigure4 11-04-06, 05:02 PM	No matter how much you jigger and poke the rules, you still need the DMs permission to take MT. Any sane DM is going to keep it to the original spirit of the prereqs - at least 3 levels in a divine casting class and 3 levels in an arcane.
Quixon 11-06-06, 07:24 PM	Where did it say that? Sorry I am at work but its posted on this website somewhere, I will try and find it when i get a chance, unless somebody else knows where its at and has the link....
Salla 11-07-06, 12:24 AM	Sorry I am at work but its posted on this website somewhere, I will try and find it when i get a chance, unless somebody else knows where its at and has the link.... Epic Insights, whereever that is around here ... :)
Vaelan 11-07-06, 01:20 AM	Here is a quote from the feat... When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above... If you claim that Precocious Apprentice meets the qualificaiton of the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, then the feat does nothing. That itself is a pretty clear sign that it does not, in fact, give you the ability to cast 2nd-level spells. Also, a Cleric 3 / Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice can cast 2nd-level spells and thus loses the benefit of the feat. It makes no difference, according to the feat's description, that the 2nd-level spells that you are capable of casting happen to be divine.
DarkRhystar 11-07-06, 01:26 AM	Cons of the Mystic Theurge class: If you're a Fighter, and you take Leadership. You get a Wizard Cohort. Your Wizard Cohort takes Leadership, and gets a Cleric Cohort. Your cohorts are bringing more to the table than the Mystic Theurge. That's so true it's painful. MT's are about as durable as a wet paperbag with enough MAD to make even a Monk cringe.
Cifer 11-07-06, 01:31 PM	MT's are about as durable as a wet paperbag with enough MAD to make even a Monk cringe. Only if you don't bring in enough splatbooks. g Wizard/Archivist and Shugenja/sorc have already been mentioned.
DarkRhystar 11-07-06, 04:09 PM	Only if you don't bring in enough splatbooks. g Wizard/Archivist and Shugenja/sorc have already been mentioned. Aw, that's not fair. More splat books makes everything better. :P
Cifer 11-07-06, 04:35 PM	Aw, that's not fair. Did I ever pretend to be? More splat books makes everything better. You didn't read the BoVD, did you?
High Octane 11-08-06, 03:01 AM	Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast one specific spell. flipflipflipflipflipflipfli pflipflipflipflipflipflipf lipflipflip .....well damn, you are correct, technically. That is going to cheese off my friend who was using that feat for a few multiclassing loopholes.