Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Retromancer 12-05-06, 11:12 PM	Don't their powers come from taking vows and following the ideals of their gods? doesn't that mean that they have a code that they devote themselves to? doesn't that imply a lawful alignment?
Reversefigure4 12-05-06, 11:14 PM	Unless they follow the ideals of a non-lawful god, of course.
DarkRhystar 12-05-06, 11:31 PM	The short version is no. The long version is: We are sorry to inform you that as of 3.X all faiths, pantheons, and other deital matters have been outsourced. The result of which is that all your beliefs must now be reevaluated. However, rest assured that we at Thor Prayer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) are standing by and that we are ready, willing, and able to receive and grant your prayers.* *All prayers are subject long distance taxes and rates will vary in many areas. By contacting Thor Prayer, you absolve Thor Prayer of legal responsibility regarding any mishaps, miscasting, and general abuse of Thor Prayer rights and privileges. Should you violate the terms of service of Thor Prayer, we reserve the right to disintegrate you, your family, your friends, you family's friends, your friends' families, and all pets of the aforementioned. If you have questions please consult your local oracle.
Retromancer 12-05-06, 11:59 PM	Unless they follow the ideals of a non-lawful god, of course. but they adhere themselves to follow the chaotic god's teachings. they take a vow to adhere to another's belief system. doesn't that make them lawful?
Roivas 12-06-06, 12:05 AM	You can believe in things without being lawful. Choatic doesn't mean unable to think, plan, or have morals it just implies that you are willing to be flexable in thought and action. Your god for example Erthynul commands you to slay everything that lives and breathes, you wanting powers, agree to do so. You then go about slaying people at random, burning cities, putting babies on spikes, and driving fear into the world's heart. And Erthynul is pleased, granting you more power as his chosen. Where is the lawful act in slaying people for no reason other than you were told by a god to do it? You should take some time to learn the definition of lawful acts. Also magic missle.
ressurrector 12-06-06, 12:15 AM	Chaotic deitys usually either encourage their followers to randomly destroy, wander about at a whim, or such. The main thing is that a chaotic cleric is not going to act or live in an ordered manner.
Tempest Stormwind 12-06-06, 12:26 AM	but they adhere themselves to follow the chaotic god's teachings. they take a vow to adhere to another's belief system. doesn't that make them lawful? Where's the vow? Seriously. Point to it. I suspect that Olidammara's clergy would ordain anyone who managed to crash a wedding and steal the cake or the rings, particularly if it's a police officer's wedding. They'd find out through the thieves' guilds and say "The Laughing God smiles upon your deeds, care to join his clergy?" and if he's devout enough he'll recieve divine powers from his patron. He'll strive to work out Olidammara's will on his own (free will and all that), and I imagine the clergy often seems to work at cross-purposes ... but over time, his will gets done, simply because he wills it in enough people who go at it from enough different directions. Purely Chaotic Neutral, and no vows included at all. Just learn to think of "clergy" in a sense that doesn't involve pope hats. Olidammara's clergy likely spend their time in taverns, cracking jokes, placing bets, playing cards and darts (and likely cheating at them if they think they can get away with it), and likely picking the pockets, pouches, packs, and pants of anyone who just happens in for a quiet drink, all while befriending the guy in a warm atmosphere of a den of thieves. That's just one example, though. Note that I think that the divine magic system could be better expressed differently (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10795933#post10795933) (Clerics of Olidammara are supposedly like rogues, and Kord's are like barbarians, and so on... so why not?). But the idea presented above still works with the core mechanics.
Vaelan 12-06-06, 12:28 AM	Don't their powers come from taking vows and following the ideals of their gods? No, their power comes from their faith, as per the PHB. Faith is not a Lawful trait, and even if it were, it wouldn't be a trait that defines Lawfulness to such an extent that we could say that all characters who have faith are Lawful. If I were to make one of these useless, sweeping generalities, I would say that Lawful people are more likely to be clerics of a god with an established church because the differences between their beliefs and the church's dogma would be disregarded so that they could satisfy their Lawful desires. I don't see a Chaotic person disregarding the differences, and thus it seems to me that they would be more likely to become a cleric of a cause or philosophy unless their beliefs mirrored the church's dogma perfectly.
Retromancer 12-06-06, 01:32 AM	Where's the vow? Seriously. Point to it. I suspect that Olidammara's clergy would ordain anyone who managed to crash a wedding and steal the cake or the rings, particularly if it's a police officer's wedding. They'd find out through the thieves' guilds and say "The Laughing God smiles upon your deeds, care to join his clergy?" and if he's devout enough he'll recieve divine powers from his patron. He'll strive to work out Olidammara's will on his own (free will and all that), and I imagine the clergy often seems to work at cross-purposes ... but over time, his will gets done, simply because he wills it in enough people who go at it from enough different directions. Purely Chaotic Neutral, and no vows included at all. Just learn to think of "clergy" in a sense that doesn't involve pope hats. Olidammara's clergy likely spend their time in taverns, cracking jokes, placing bets, playing cards and darts (and likely cheating at them if they think they can get away with it), and likely picking the pockets, pouches, packs, and pants of anyone who just happens in for a quiet drink, all while befriending the guy in a warm atmosphere of a den of thieves. That's just one example, though. Note that I think that the divine magic system could be better expressed differently (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10795933#post10795933) (Clerics of Olidammara are supposedly like rogues, and Kord's are like barbarians, and so on... so why not?). But the idea presented above still works with the core mechanics. touché
Dragonsblood 12-06-06, 02:03 AM	Chaotic beings are not incapable of lawful acts. Alignment is not that fickle when you look at the bigger picture.
Roivas 12-06-06, 05:32 AM	I actually played a choatic evil character who swore service to the wizard in the party. I also obeyed his orders without question and damded that the rest of the party follow his commands too. When the wizard wasn't around I ordered the barbarian around like he was an animal and treated the grome worse. And every day my character started with a qick prayer to Lolth vowing to become stronger so as to be worthy of her attentions. Was my character lawful? Certainly not. He had a hard time remaining constistant on his standards for torture, broke laws constantly, fed only on intelligent creatures, and planned to betray the wizard at the most crucial moment so he could destroy the world. Just making a vows, or even following commands doesn't make you lawful.
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-06-06, 09:27 AM	Where is the lawful act in slaying people for no reason other than you were told by a god to do it? Actually, that's exactly what lawful is all about. Especially lawful neutral, which is the most pure form of lawful. Basically the lawful neutral guy adheres to a specific code, and follows it. So you get archetypes like the inflexible judge who follows the letter of the law and the loyal soldier who never questions orders. Lawful is all about doing something because some authority figure told you to do it.
Thiez 12-06-06, 09:42 AM	Not another alignment thread :P Does consistantly acting chaotic make you lawful because you're consistant in being unpredictable? Off course it doesn't. Does following orders to act in a chaotic way make you lawful because you follow orders? See above. Does taking vows to act in a chaotic way make you lawful because you take a vow? See above. Your definition of lawful needs to be redefined.
Orchomenos 12-06-06, 09:59 AM	Actually, that's exactly what lawful is all about. Especially lawful neutral, which is the most pure form of lawful. Basically the lawful neutral guy adheres to a specific code, and follows it. So you get archetypes like the inflexible judge who follows the letter of the law and the loyal soldier who never questions orders. Lawful is all about doing something because some authority figure told you to do it. But what if said cleric of Erythnul actually like killing people at random? ;) The LN guy will never kill people at random. He will kill invaders, trespassers, disbelievers, witches, squatters, black market merchants, con artists, etc, without indication of who they are. They are random people in their own right, but they all have in common of falling out of the LN guy's Codes of Conduct. OTOH, the CE cleric of Erythnul might as well enter a city with 10K of stolen stuff, sell it to the merchant's guild, and get out without causing any problem, than entering the next town and burn everything. Why? Just because it pleases him, and it pleases Erythnul.
Millennium 12-06-06, 10:10 AM	Taking vows does not inherently make a person Lawful. Even Chaotic characters can still make and keep promises. Indeed, some Chaotic characters might believe that personal promises are the only laws worth following, because you bind yourself to them voluntarily. That leaves the issue of following your deity's philosophy. Here we come to things like deities which follow Chaotic philosophies. The tricksters, like Olidammara, Loki, Hermes, and Tymora come to mind here: few would argue that any of these beings ought to be considered Lawful. Those who seek to emulate them, therfore, shouldn't be Lawful either.
Comus 12-06-06, 12:05 PM	With a Chaotic god, they aren't so much rules. More like guidelines - you savvy?
Cifer 12-06-06, 12:58 PM	While I too believe rules, vows and Codes of Conduct to be inherently lawful, there will be plenty of things within said rules that are chaotic (usually "If this and that happens, do the following. Otherwise, just do whatever you think is best - what am I, a god or a kindergarten teacher?") so the overall tendency is still chaotic.
Ocalus 12-06-06, 01:01 PM	No necessarily. It all depends on the god and the church. There may be no vows or pledges involved at all. Chaotic Evil God: "Go cause some s***." Cleric of said God: "Okay." ;)
Thiez 12-06-06, 01:22 PM	While I too believe rules, vows and Codes of Conduct to be inherently lawful, there will be plenty of things within said rules that are chaotic (usually "If this and that happens, do the following. Otherwise, just do whatever you think is best - what am I, a god or a kindergarten teacher?") so the overall tendency is still chaotic. But if you do whatever you think is best in that situation, you're still following the rules from that deity, which, according to you, is lawful.
konrad_the_tall 12-06-06, 01:28 PM	mmm. bacon.
Thiez 12-06-06, 01:29 PM	konrad wins the thread.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-06-06, 01:39 PM	Lawful is all about doing something because some authority figure told you to do it. Not really. If you have an authority figure you've pledged yourself or your allegiance to (not all Lawful people do), you can still question their orders (and choose not to follow them, if they conflict with your own viewpoints). You are not dependent on them like a kitten on its mother. In short: As much as I hate them, Lawful people are not (total) idiots.
mlund 12-06-06, 03:54 PM	Lawful is all about doing something because some authority figure told you to do it. Not really. Lawful Neutral characters are about Order first, not Authority. A Lawful character might be the first to develop a rule or system, rather than a follower of an established one. He might even follow an order he perceives from nature itself - Natural Law, as it were. Perhaps he vests his faith in a particular prophecy and works diligently to fulfill its conditions. None of these things relate to any concept of authority at all - only Order. - Marty Lund
Erato 12-06-06, 04:43 PM	I don’t think people change their values and behaviour to accommodate the deities they worship (a lawful act). I think they choose to worship the deities whose values and required behaviour correspond with their own. A cleric of Ollidammara, would probably like to play tricks and focus on enjoying life, no matter whether he was a cleric or not. Also, chaotic deities would most likely have loser conventions than lawful ones. Ollidammara, for instance, ‘delights in wine, women, and song’. But not all of his clergy would have to do the same. A female cleric of Olidammara, would probably delight in wine, men, and song, instead… Or maybe she would delight in wine, women, and song, in which case, Olidammara would like her very, very much :D Chaotic characters can have role models, beloved family members, mentors, and trading partners. Depending on your view on religion, a deity could represent all of these.
Cifer 12-06-06, 07:04 PM	But if you do whatever you think is best in that situation, you're still following the rules from that deity, which, according to you, is lawful. Of course you are following orders - but an act can contain more than one alignment. This is evident in the cases of intent vs. action (the ends are most certainly good, but are they overshadowed by evil means?). If that were not the case, demons and devils would become celestials pretty soon, because the Blood War basically consists of slaying fiends, which is generally considered a good thing - only it happens for the wrong reasons, so the whole act stops to count as essentially good.
High Octane 12-06-06, 07:10 PM	Don't their powers come from taking vows and following the ideals of their gods? doesn't that mean that they have a code that they devote themselves to? doesn't that imply a lawful alignment? Stop trying to apply logic to alignments, deities, or D&D in general. You'll only hurt yourself.
konrad_the_tall 12-06-06, 07:48 PM	konrad wins the thread. YES! That is going in my sig....
Matthew77 12-06-06, 10:19 PM	I don’t think people change their values and behaviour to accommodate the deities they worship (a lawful act). I think they choose to worship the deities whose values and required behaviour correspond with their own. Chaotic characters can have role models, beloved family members, mentors, and trading partners. Depending on your view on religion, a deity could represent all of these. I agree 100%. Although this describes the ideal (Cleric's natural inclinations match his Deities'), it can be fun to RP a Cleric who is struggling with his Deity's strictures, or slowly changing away from Chaos. Imagine a free-spirited young halfling who becomes a powerful cleric of Ollidammara, but as he grows older, begins to long to settle down on a nice, quiet orderly farmstead. Recommended for campaigns that focus on RP and internal conflicts rather than combat :)
Stormbrand 12-07-06, 10:52 AM	Just following rules does not make one lawful because the rules are not themselves lawful. Lawful does not mean "obeys law" - it means in favour of structure, consistant authority, coordination & loyalties. In short, putting ones sense of order ahead of ones personal feelings. Chaotic means acts according to own wishes. Spontanious, acts on impulse. For a chaotic cleric this would mean what one feels is the god's impulse. PHB says clerics tend more towards lawful because lawful/organised faiths tend to have more success with converts and priests, and lawful faiths offer more stability. Think of structured churches and temples as lawful religion, think of superstitious prayers and 'don't upset the gods' as chaotic religion. Chaotic faiths offer moderately more freedom, since they are based more generally and less about specifics.
High Octane 12-07-06, 12:50 PM	If Jozan wasnt a cleric of Pelor, he still would be out trying to help people in need and feed teh hungry and all that. Being a Cleric of pelor just helps him, so he pledged allegience to him. Clerics and deities see each other as means to an end, whether that end is a benevolent or harmful one.
ShinoAburame 12-07-06, 04:30 PM	Quoting the player's handbook; Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. "Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. A good way of differanting between lawful and chaotic clerics is like the argument me and the girl cleric are having in our game. (Albeit we're both evil orcs.) I don't know if either one of us is acting exactly as our alingment, but there's deffinitely interesting conflict. Her: Lawful evil. She thinks we should just go to this village of a rival clergy, slaughter, and convert the masses. "Grummish is the only god that should be worshiped.." Me: Chaotic evil. I think we also should go there, but to "trick" the clergy into helping us fightoff the humans. Saying to her directly "a full on assault will cause a later revolt". Having such high wisdom, she should innately know this. But being lawful, she's arrogant. And where as she wants to force them to do our bidding, I want them to think they're doing the right thing when we're fooling them into doing what's convient for us. Opression vs manipulation.
Cifer 12-07-06, 06:15 PM	Opression vs manipulation. Not really. Look at the nine hells and tell me the devils are not manipulating everything around them. I'd see the difference mainly in the organization - lawful guys usually have their plans laid out and prefer to act according to them (and they of course also prefer their minions to act according to plan) while chaotic ones often improvise. Which way is better depends on the being in question.