Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arrisnyte 04-03-07, 03:35 PM	My buddy is starting up a game. Forgotten realms, 3.5, 3rd level Gestalt, ANYTHING GOES for character class choices, but we need to inform him of our concept and bacground before gameplay starts. As of right now, the party needs both a healer AND a full Arcane caster, but I dislike bookkeeping of slots. What I'm wondering is which of these options would be a decent character, and if it doesn't offer any access to healing, could it still be viable with no healer in the group? A.) Warlock and Dragonfire Adept (Complete Arcane and Dragon Magic). I call it Warlock Squared. Double invocation amounts means I can play a little more loosely with my choices for either class, and as the DFA gets free breath essence alterations, I don't need to use my warlock invocations for essences until I get to Greater or Dark. No healing access that I can see yet. B.) Warlock and Binder. The ultimate "I sold my soul for power" concept. Also no access to healing, but several nifty vestige powers would supplement the invocations. C.) Dragonfire Adept and Binder. Different flavored option B. D.) Binder and Artificer. This one was suggested to me by my DM as a means to get healing through artificer. The binder abilities would also keep me from being relegated to M*A*S*H* Medic, keeping me somewhat decent in combat. If this is viable, then why not... E.) Warlock and Artificer. Honestly, this one seems more than viable, but I have to know, from anyone who has played one, or at least done on out on paper: How is it? Am I overlapping too much between them, or making one class's abilities obsolete through levels in the other?
chava 04-03-07, 03:45 PM	By picking two spellcasting classes in general you will have the penalty of being a spellcaster (lower HD, lower BAB, etc) - the fun thing about gestalt is that you can have a character who can do more. Some of the mixes that people have enjoyed in my gestalt game - Paladin/Monk Wizard/Monk (happy high unarmed AC) Barbarian/Chaos Monk Warblade/Psion (this one being nice bc you can heal...) Artificer/Gun Mage (yee, gods the things he pulls out of his bag of crafting minions...) Swordsage/Battledancer Necromancer/Cleric (who PrC into Master of shrouds/frost mage) Warblade/Druid Truenamer/Monk
StalkerEntreri 04-03-07, 03:58 PM	I would say if you guys needed a healer; what you could do is do something like Monk/Clerks or druid; because the wisdom synergy would be useful; and you can just buff your list with healing spells, and all the nifty monk abilities =)
arrisnyte 04-03-07, 04:22 PM	As of right now, the party needs both a healer AND a full Arcane caster, but I dislike bookkeeping of slots. What I'm wondering is which of these options would be a decent character, and if it doesn't offer any access to healing, could it still be viable with no healer in the group? Stalker, while that is an enticing bit, I dislike keeping track of spell slots. That's why previous to Complete Arcane, Sorcerer was my modus operandi of playing a caster. Once warlock got out (And more recently Dragonfire Adept) it became more appealing, as they used magic as a fighter uses feats; choose carefully when you get them, but use them an infinite number of times. Chava, while Warlock is technically a casting class, I don't see it as difficult to maintain and manage as a slot based class, so I really wouldn't be mixing 2 casting classes (Hell, technically I don't see the artificer as a casting class, but then again, in my humble opinion, I don't see an artificer as a valid adventuring class, more of a large city entrepreneur.) EDIT: I should also point out that I have access to Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Tome of Magic and Dragon Magic, in addition to the Core Books. I never got behind the idea of Psychics in my arthurian fantasy, so I don't play psionics myself, and incarnum leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth with its incorporation. I have yet to seriously look through Tome of Battle, but it seems interesting. That said, I have no idea the mechanics behind those classes and abilities.
Onikani 04-03-07, 04:42 PM	Cleric / Warmage It's a little MAD (Wis, Int, Cha) but atleast the Cha pulls double duty. You get the best buffer spells, and a bunch of evocation. It's not the greatest but it easily a lot less bookeeping than a Cleric/Wiz. D8 HP, 2 good saves, and both can cast in armor... (Alternatively: Sorc, beguiler, or Dread necro work as well).
green_yawgmoth 04-03-07, 04:47 PM	Warlock/rogues are fun. sneak attack + eldritch blast = death from a 30 ft. range. Or you can go sorcerer/fighter for the ubergish. Or monk/fighter for some excellent ass-kicking. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Tyraxus 04-03-07, 04:59 PM	If it wasn't for the bookkeeping aspect, I'd suggest Crusader//Swordsage from the Tome of Battle. Crusader gets nifty healing attacks and stances, while Swordsage gives you lots of mobility and attack options. Due to the ruling that gestalt casters keep track of seperate spell slots/spells prepared, etc, I think it's safe to assume you'd get both full complements of stances and maneuvers, and you'd have all good (or, since it's gestalt, medium) saves. If you pick up the book/system (which I recommend) and go this route, I suggest Adaptive Style to refresh your Swordsage maneuvers. My preferred multiclass or gestalt is actually Warblade/Swordsage because of the Warblade's d12 HD and Weapon Aptitude, but a crusader has a d10 and gets nice healing stuff, so it'd be closer to what you want. For Core there's always the Cleric//Sorceror. It's not as MAD as Cleric//Wiz since Cha pulls double duty as turning and sorc spells, and you get to help with both needed roles (as well as playing a second hitter if the party needs one, if you pick up a decent Con and grab the cleric "I kill you now" spells). Wiz/Duskblade (PHB2) also makes a nice combo, since you get Int for spells for both spontaneous and prepared spells, and I think you can channel your Wiz spells as well as DB spells through your strikes. You'll want to grab Still Spell though, since you'll probably want some armor since DBs can cast in it. This makes for a pretty darn good Gish, since DB gets a 1:1 BAB, armoured casting, arcane chanelling (cast a spell through your weapon), and a d8 HD.
RainerNader 04-03-07, 05:13 PM	Whatever class you are, just pump UMD and buy a bunch of Wands of Cure Wounds and Vigor.
arrisnyte 04-03-07, 05:44 PM	Rainer: I plan on Maxing out UMD, if not also nabbing Skilll Focus for it as well. But will I really need a high UMD if I go Warlock/Artificer? Does the Warlock's ability to take 10 on UMD even mean anything with the artificer's abilities?
Daydreamer 04-03-07, 05:51 PM	mystic theurge? just split cleric/wizard levels till he levels till then. multiclass guy.
green_yawgmoth 04-03-07, 05:52 PM	Oh, another good choice (if you can use psionics) is wilder/psion. So many power points! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Comus 04-03-07, 06:03 PM	Warblade//Cleric. Kick some serious arse.
arrisnyte 04-03-07, 06:39 PM	OK, not doing standard, doing Gestalt. Don't like bookkeeping of Spell slots, so Cleric or Druid or Wizard or Shugenja or Wu Jen is out. I also want to stay away from Sorcerer, Favored Soul or Warmage. I've already posted I don't like Psionics, plus (I believe this has been errata'd, but if not my DM has already stated it as DM House rule): Since gestalting 2 spellcasters you must seperate spell slots, gestalting 2 psionics classes you must seperate their power point pool. At this point, I want to know the viability of Warlock/Artificer?
Onikani 04-03-07, 07:15 PM	since all forms of casting and psionics are out... Just be a fighter/rogue. Skills, 2 good saves, sneak attack, evasion, and massive feats. :)
Toran_A_Sunder 04-03-07, 07:30 PM	Well since I am in this game, I would say Warlock/Artificer would be awesome since I decided against wizard/artificer. Though I havent seen DRagonfire Adept at all. I'd like t see that in play, esp. in conjunction with Warlock. My 2 cps. See you in July Arrisnyte :D
DarkRhystar 04-04-07, 01:23 AM	Binders have healing. Read the special abilities of the Buer vestige.
danielinthewolvesden 04-04-07, 02:51 PM	You want some healing but do not want slots? Then you want Dragon Shaman. DS and Warlock would be truely cool. DS has quite a bit of completely slotless healing. Or there's the Hellbred (?) race/template in the Devils book out a few month's ago. Warlock/Paladin works nice with that. Basicly the race is a soul that died with a terrible sin but tried to repent.It is sent back with lots of Taint and a Quest, if it fulfils the Quest it gets saved. Usually LG, always Good of cource. With the new option from Dungeonscape the Pally gets some decent healing. There are some options out there to dump the few spells if you insist.
Ryoohki 04-04-07, 03:50 PM	Another option for a healing class is the Favored Soul in the Complete Divine. It's like a Sorcerer except with the Cleric spell list. You have to choose which spells you know at the various levels. However, the Favored Soul also gets some interesting things at various levels such as resistances, weapon focus and specialization with your diety's favored weapon, and flight. I don't have the book in front of me, so I forget which abilties it casts off of, but I seem to remember it using WIS and CHR. One for the extra spell slots and the other for the DC. It's a 3/4 BAB class with decent HP (d8?). You could mix anything with that and come out okay. You could mix a full bab class and go the fighting route and be okay. Or you could mix another spellcasting class such as sorcerer or warlock and be okay on the defensive side. (aside from your bad AC due to armor) Maybe mix in the Warmage from Complete Arcane to give yourself the ability to wear light armor (and later medium or heavy if you want) without suffering any arcane spell failure. Of course, a Warmage uses INT for its spellcasting if I recall. Though it may also use 2 stats such as INT and CHR. I'd have to look at my books when I get home. Kyle
Azerian 04-04-07, 06:19 PM	War Mage/Favored Soul
Ryoohki 04-05-07, 02:19 AM	Oops. Ignore my post as I somehow missed that you weren't interested in the Favored Soul and/or Warmage. Sigh... You might try out the Spirit Shaman from the Complete Divine. They get spontaneous casting of spells, but you can change which spells you can cast each day from the Druid spell list. That gives you some healing. They require WIS to cast a spell (and for bonus spells) and the DC of their spells is based off of CHR. They get 4 skill points/level, a D8 for HP, and 3/4 BAB, so they're fairly well balanced. Plus they get a buncha funky abilities. You could mix that with Bard if you wanted some CHR synergy plus more skills. A bard is technically an arcane caster, just not the full list that you might want from a wizard. However, they get the no arcane failure with light armor. And I believe there's a feat to increase that to medium. You mentioned you didn't want to do a Shugenja because of the bookkeeping of spell slots, but they're spontaneous spell casters, so there's not as much book keeping with them as a wizard or cleric or whatnot. If you chose Shugenja, they're able to get both offensive and defensive magic, similar to both a cleric and a wizard spell list. Just not the full set of them. And since it's divine magic, you can wear armor while casting it, so you could mix a Shugenja with a good melee type of class and wear heavy armor if you so choose. I believe the only bookkeeping that's non-standard with them is their favored element spell which they have one of each spell level. Since they use CHR as their spell, they'd mix well with a Paladin for example. Anyway, lots of classes out there to choose from. Kyle
Raiden Drake 04-05-07, 02:58 AM	E.) Warlock and Artificer. Honestly, this one seems more than viable, but I have to know, from anyone who has played one, or at least done on out on paper: How is it? Am I overlapping too much between them, or making one class's abilities obsolete through levels in the other? This one, i had play... is a crafting machine. "Healling?, Damage? Don't say another word... I got a wand..."
Joe Outside 04-05-07, 04:08 AM	Yes, Warlock | Artificer is a very valid option. You will want to max out UMD--taking 10 is nice, but some of the UMD checks for some of the artificer infusions can get to the high 20s and 30s really quick.
Soluphobe 04-05-07, 09:44 AM	Oh, yeah. Warlock//Artificer is the way to go. The Eldritch Blast basically makes you a better fighter than the fighter at level three (ranged touch attack greatsword), and (I don't have ECS yet) as an Artificer you can at least keep up with casters. The combo might be a little damage-heavy, but really, does that matter? Your DM has said that anything goes. (Of course, you could be a multiclassed Warlock//Artificer / Spirit Shaman//Fighter if you really want to get wacky.:P )
Heros_Backpack 04-05-07, 01:07 PM	You could mix that with Bard if you wanted some CHR synergy plus more skills. A bard is technically an arcane caster, just not the full list that you might want from a wizard. However, they get the no arcane failure with light armor. And I believe there's a feat to increase that to medium. Remember, bards also have some healing spells on their list.
DreadArchon 04-05-07, 06:18 PM	You want some healing but do not want slots? Then you want Dragon Shaman. DS and Warlock would be truely cool. DS has quite a bit of completely slotless healing. You beat me to it. That's the first thing that came to mind for me. Anyway, UMD as a Warlock makes you quite good at healing with wands between blasts.
danielinthewolvesden 04-05-07, 08:39 PM	Guys. OP does not want spell slots. War Mage/Favored Soul= slots Bard= slots Spirit Shaman= slots.
Comus 04-05-07, 09:03 PM	Crusader would be good for healing. Maybe that, and Binder for the arcane needs? I'm not terribly familiar with the class, though I've heard it's pretty good.