Don't want to be a rules wizard but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Don't want to be a rules wizard but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
afeldspar
08-05-06, 01:04 AM I am pretty new to 3.5 D&D, so with each gaming session I am playing in, I am learning new rules as I play, and I am also going through the PHB away from the game, especially the combat and skills sections, in order to figure out what my rogue can and cannot do. Frustration: I am also the one outsider in an already established gaming group, and they seem to have some of the rules just plain wrong. So I go to do something, the DM tells me I can't do it that way and... well, the first few times I pointed to the rule that says I can (like, I can use a move action twice instead of a move and a standard action). But I started getting the feeling that this is frowned upon, and I know if I was a DM, I wouldn't want my player constantly quoting rules at me. So I stopped and I am just living with it, but it is frustrating and hard to plan actions when you don't know if the DM is going to allow it or not beforehand. I enjoy the group otherwise and the DM is very good at telling the story and running the game in general. Do I just grin and bear it, or should I give up on this group? :confused:
Crash01234567890
08-05-06, 01:50 AM My advice is to talk to the DM out of game after the next session and explain how you feel to him. Don't be rude about it, just tell him that it's frustrating you and ask him to either read up on the rules better or to start trusting you.

That said, many times a DM doesn't feel like looking up rules that randomly come up because he wants to keep the game moving. Don't bog the game down, just bring them up when absolutely necessary or when asked.
TheChilliGod
08-05-06, 01:56 AM So, you just happen to be the lone sane voice in a drone of mindless incorrect rules. And you're the "new guy."

Hey, it's hard being what they call "Rules Lawyers." I'm one myself. Sometimes my advice is accepted, and sometimes I cross the line and about 2-3 people (who are my friends OOG, by the way) tell me to shut up.

The best way to go about this is to make a note (mental or written) about every wrong rule you see during the session, and ask the DM at the end of the session if he would want to see your "Ruling Counseling."
If he says "Yes," be nice and forgiving. Go through each mistake slowly, and make sure to quote the PHB if he argues.
If he says "No," then you have to decide if these rules are really disrupting your fun in the game. If it was me, and I hardly knew these guys, I would actually dump them like a dirty nappy and find another rules-savvy group. Say it, "Isn't working out, we have different play styles," or something; hard feelings are bad and bitter.
King_Bulba
08-05-06, 02:34 AM Ask the DM when he gets to time write down his house rules so you can use them with less confusion and conflict.

There are some things though that you can not change. A standard action can be used as an attack action OR a move action. The game is baised upon that fact. If you cant then it isnt possible to double move. Makes no sense that you can only move 30ft when in 3 seconds but not 60 in 6. How would you explain charging if you can not normally take a double action.

I dont hide my rules lawyer self. I dont mind not using RAW (I tend to like that better hehe) but I need to know the rules. Just the way I am.
Karma
08-05-06, 02:56 AM As far as I am concerned, as long as everyone is on the same page rules-wise, you have a game. That is why munchkins get on DMs an players nerves, because they sniff out loopholes in the rules and exploit every possible interpretation. I like the WotC products because most things are explicitly stated. In my groups, RAW is LAW unless there is a relevent houserule that changes it in some way... but these are ussually minor things added for flavor. For example: one houserule in the games I run is that all races are proficient with their racial weapons or the predominant weapons of the society that they grew up in. Humans generally end up with a free exotic weapon proficientcy and I ussually rule that is the Bastard Sword but that depends on the class and backround.

A good approach would be to try and help the DM out of game... or you can learn the way that they play, however I think that is a bad idea because you will develope bad playing habits based on a poorly interpreted ruleset. Just be as diplomatic as possible. Being a rules Lawyer is a tough job but every gaming group benefits from it. Just try and help keep the game going and on the rails.
King_Bulba
08-05-06, 04:10 AM Removed because I was being an ass on a bad day.
Dag
08-05-06, 04:47 AM I had the exact same problem as you, and it was very frustrating. I questioned the DM once or twice away from the table and he told me he'd read the rules I was referring to but said nothing more and continued to run the game with incorrect rules. I stopped saying anything and just suffered through the campaign. When it was over I volunteered to DM. My first session as DM, while they were making characters I went through some rules straight from the book with the group, letting them follow along in their PHB so they could see the illustrations and such. I told them I would be enforcing these rules and they should be prepared for that.
Karma
08-05-06, 05:03 AM Also removing this post.... however, this comment stays because I like it and I am rude enough to laugh at my own jokes.

Rushed diplomacy will not work on a Red Dragon that is entirely too focused on turning you into seared side of gnome-jerky.
BopLouie
08-05-06, 05:08 AM Talk with your DM. Just make sure he knows you're not looking to exploit or interrupt the game, you're just looking to make sure you can be as effective as possible playing your character.
King_Bulba
08-05-06, 05:14 AM King_Bulba-

Nitpick much?
I apoligize. I went off the deep end... ill remove my post.
Karma
08-05-06, 05:30 AM I apoligize. I went off the deep end... ill remove my post.

Its cool.
GM_TerraFire
08-05-06, 05:52 AM As has been stated already, just chat with your GM outside the game about what's bothering you. Don't rules-lawyer him, just let him know that you'd like to know what the rules of play are, and if such is the case, that you'd prefer to use the RAW as you're still learning the game.

Also, here's a link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060804a) to the most recent Save My Game article, which coincidentally deals with a similar issue.
WayneTheGame
08-05-06, 09:21 AM I'm fully on the player's side in this. I don't care if the DM is trying to speed up the game, there's no reason to ignore common rules. Rule 0 means garbage in this respect, in case anyone decided to bring that little gem up. Rule 0 is so the DM can arbitrarily make judgments for rules which don't really exist in the game; it's not a omnipotent veto to ignore the RAW on a whim.

If they're doing things blatantly wrong, bring it up to the DM after the game. Maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it wrong (which, IMO, means he's a rather poor DM because he obviously hasn't taken the time to learn the rules). If he KNOWS he's wrong and does it anyway, then he's an idiot and I suggest you find a new group.

There are two kinds of Rules Lawyers, the good and the bad. The good Rules Lawyer keeps the game following the RAW unless there's an explicit house rule that changes it (and then they enforce said house rule), to ensure that nobody is cheating (that includes the DM) or changing things around on a whim.

The BAD Rules Lawyer (a.k.a. the Brian, after the Knights of the Dinner Table character) looks for and exploits rules to gain an unfair advantage. In this case, the OP is the good variety and he's right: the group SHOULD be following the rules, especially with something as simplistic as being allowed to take a double move. And he SHOULD bring it up with the DM, since the DM is ignoring the rules.
afeldspar
08-05-06, 11:23 AM One question,what does RAW stand for?
claypigeons
08-05-06, 11:42 AM One question,what does RAW stand for?

Rules As Written.

Not to be confused with Rules As Interpreted

or Rules As They Should Have Been From The Start.

Well, I made the last one up. But the first 2 are for real (the second use much less than the first).

Hmmm.....RATSHBFTS....Think it'll catch on?
Rancorous_Fool
08-05-06, 02:13 PM Just tell them what you said int he first post. It is simple, sincere, and expressive. The DM will understand.
Count Arioch the 28th
08-05-06, 02:42 PM Keep in mind that being a rules lawyer can work against you if you are doing it correctly.

For example, I am regarded by many people I play with as an expert, for why, I have no clue.

Most DMs will ask me how a rule goes, or whatnot, and I will tell them.

I remember one player thinking it was awesome that I got the DM to rule inf avor of what we were doing ... only to start yelling at me because a half hour later the DM asked how a rule went and this time it wasn't in our favor, and it almost got us killed. However, it was the rule as written, and I was asked what it was, I'm not going to lie to cheat the system.
a_psh
08-05-06, 02:57 PM Hmmm.....RATSHBFTS....Think it'll catch on?I'd use it. There's certainly a lot of reason to.

The glob of consonants at the end isn't very catchy, though.
Crash01234567890
08-05-06, 03:04 PM It could be hard to remember, but if you think about RAT SH*** BreakFast Till Saturday it'll be easy as pie.
Alric
08-05-06, 03:04 PM Saying you can get two move actions instead of a standard is very basic and you should bring it up any time you want. The stuff I have notice that gets people mad is like line of sight type or line of effect type stuff. Like a few games ago a player was argueing with the DM about how a line attack can hit 10 feet wide area because it goes down the line between the two targets. Or shooting from the corner of you square is a big one, I have had 2 different DM complain about that one with 2 different players because it gives you some really impossible shots that don't make any sense in real life.
Kursk
08-05-06, 05:57 PM Just ask the DM for a printed sheet of his house rules. If he's making house rules he should have one to hand.
Salla
08-05-06, 09:19 PM I remember one player thinking it was awesome that I got the DM to rule inf avor of what we were doing ... only to start yelling at me because a half hour later the DM asked how a rule went and this time it wasn't in our favor, and it almost got us killed. However, it was the rule as written, and I was asked what it was, I'm not going to lie to cheat the system.

As a fellow Lawful Good Rules Lawyer, I too have been there and done that. :)
rogue_lettuce
08-06-06, 08:21 AM As much as I can understand not wanting to argue about the rules all the time as a DM, you should pretty much stand aside if you're claiming you can't use two move actions in a turn, that's a really basic rule that the whole game relies upon! :eek:
So I say don't worry about minor things, but when big mistakes like that come up, say "you're completely changing the rules of the game if you're doing it like this, and while it's possible, it's probably going to unbalance a lot of things."
(I say this because move actions are seen as "weaker" than standard actions, and he's making standard actions even more powerful, so any class that relies upon move actions to activate some of their abilities is getting nerfed, etc)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
afeldspar 08-05-06, 01:04 AM	I am pretty new to 3.5 D&D, so with each gaming session I am playing in, I am learning new rules as I play, and I am also going through the PHB away from the game, especially the combat and skills sections, in order to figure out what my rogue can and cannot do. Frustration: I am also the one outsider in an already established gaming group, and they seem to have some of the rules just plain wrong. So I go to do something, the DM tells me I can't do it that way and... well, the first few times I pointed to the rule that says I can (like, I can use a move action twice instead of a move and a standard action). But I started getting the feeling that this is frowned upon, and I know if I was a DM, I wouldn't want my player constantly quoting rules at me. So I stopped and I am just living with it, but it is frustrating and hard to plan actions when you don't know if the DM is going to allow it or not beforehand. I enjoy the group otherwise and the DM is very good at telling the story and running the game in general. Do I just grin and bear it, or should I give up on this group? :confused:
Crash01234567890 08-05-06, 01:50 AM	My advice is to talk to the DM out of game after the next session and explain how you feel to him. Don't be rude about it, just tell him that it's frustrating you and ask him to either read up on the rules better or to start trusting you. That said, many times a DM doesn't feel like looking up rules that randomly come up because he wants to keep the game moving. Don't bog the game down, just bring them up when absolutely necessary or when asked.
TheChilliGod 08-05-06, 01:56 AM	So, you just happen to be the lone sane voice in a drone of mindless incorrect rules. And you're the "new guy." Hey, it's hard being what they call "Rules Lawyers." I'm one myself. Sometimes my advice is accepted, and sometimes I cross the line and about 2-3 people (who are my friends OOG, by the way) tell me to shut up. The best way to go about this is to make a note (mental or written) about every wrong rule you see during the session, and ask the DM at the end of the session if he would want to see your "Ruling Counseling." If he says "Yes," be nice and forgiving. Go through each mistake slowly, and make sure to quote the PHB if he argues. If he says "No," then you have to decide if these rules are really disrupting your fun in the game. If it was me, and I hardly knew these guys, I would actually dump them like a dirty nappy and find another rules-savvy group. Say it, "Isn't working out, we have different play styles," or something; hard feelings are bad and bitter.
King_Bulba 08-05-06, 02:34 AM	Ask the DM when he gets to time write down his house rules so you can use them with less confusion and conflict. There are some things though that you can not change. A standard action can be used as an attack action OR a move action. The game is baised upon that fact. If you cant then it isnt possible to double move. Makes no sense that you can only move 30ft when in 3 seconds but not 60 in 6. How would you explain charging if you can not normally take a double action. I dont hide my rules lawyer self. I dont mind not using RAW (I tend to like that better hehe) but I need to know the rules. Just the way I am.
Karma 08-05-06, 02:56 AM	As far as I am concerned, as long as everyone is on the same page rules-wise, you have a game. That is why munchkins get on DMs an players nerves, because they sniff out loopholes in the rules and exploit every possible interpretation. I like the WotC products because most things are explicitly stated. In my groups, RAW is LAW unless there is a relevent houserule that changes it in some way... but these are ussually minor things added for flavor. For example: one houserule in the games I run is that all races are proficient with their racial weapons or the predominant weapons of the society that they grew up in. Humans generally end up with a free exotic weapon proficientcy and I ussually rule that is the Bastard Sword but that depends on the class and backround. A good approach would be to try and help the DM out of game... or you can learn the way that they play, however I think that is a bad idea because you will develope bad playing habits based on a poorly interpreted ruleset. Just be as diplomatic as possible. Being a rules Lawyer is a tough job but every gaming group benefits from it. Just try and help keep the game going and on the rails.
King_Bulba 08-05-06, 04:10 AM	Removed because I was being an ass on a bad day.
Dag 08-05-06, 04:47 AM	I had the exact same problem as you, and it was very frustrating. I questioned the DM once or twice away from the table and he told me he'd read the rules I was referring to but said nothing more and continued to run the game with incorrect rules. I stopped saying anything and just suffered through the campaign. When it was over I volunteered to DM. My first session as DM, while they were making characters I went through some rules straight from the book with the group, letting them follow along in their PHB so they could see the illustrations and such. I told them I would be enforcing these rules and they should be prepared for that.
Karma 08-05-06, 05:03 AM	Also removing this post.... however, this comment stays because I like it and I am rude enough to laugh at my own jokes. Rushed diplomacy will not work on a Red Dragon that is entirely too focused on turning you into seared side of gnome-jerky.
BopLouie 08-05-06, 05:08 AM	Talk with your DM. Just make sure he knows you're not looking to exploit or interrupt the game, you're just looking to make sure you can be as effective as possible playing your character.
King_Bulba 08-05-06, 05:14 AM	King_Bulba- Nitpick much? I apoligize. I went off the deep end... ill remove my post.
Karma 08-05-06, 05:30 AM	I apoligize. I went off the deep end... ill remove my post. Its cool.
GM_TerraFire 08-05-06, 05:52 AM	As has been stated already, just chat with your GM outside the game about what's bothering you. Don't rules-lawyer him, just let him know that you'd like to know what the rules of play are, and if such is the case, that you'd prefer to use the RAW as you're still learning the game. Also, here's a link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060804a) to the most recent Save My Game article, which coincidentally deals with a similar issue.
WayneTheGame 08-05-06, 09:21 AM	I'm fully on the player's side in this. I don't care if the DM is trying to speed up the game, there's no reason to ignore common rules. Rule 0 means garbage in this respect, in case anyone decided to bring that little gem up. Rule 0 is so the DM can arbitrarily make judgments for rules which don't really exist in the game; it's not a omnipotent veto to ignore the RAW on a whim. If they're doing things blatantly wrong, bring it up to the DM after the game. Maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it wrong (which, IMO, means he's a rather poor DM because he obviously hasn't taken the time to learn the rules). If he KNOWS he's wrong and does it anyway, then he's an idiot and I suggest you find a new group. There are two kinds of Rules Lawyers, the good and the bad. The good Rules Lawyer keeps the game following the RAW unless there's an explicit house rule that changes it (and then they enforce said house rule), to ensure that nobody is cheating (that includes the DM) or changing things around on a whim. The BAD Rules Lawyer (a.k.a. the Brian, after the Knights of the Dinner Table character) looks for and exploits rules to gain an unfair advantage. In this case, the OP is the good variety and he's right: the group SHOULD be following the rules, especially with something as simplistic as being allowed to take a double move. And he SHOULD bring it up with the DM, since the DM is ignoring the rules.
afeldspar 08-05-06, 11:23 AM	One question,what does RAW stand for?
claypigeons 08-05-06, 11:42 AM	One question,what does RAW stand for? Rules As Written. Not to be confused with Rules As Interpreted or Rules As They Should Have Been From The Start. Well, I made the last one up. But the first 2 are for real (the second use much less than the first). Hmmm.....RATSHBFTS....Think it'll catch on?
Rancorous_Fool 08-05-06, 02:13 PM	Just tell them what you said int he first post. It is simple, sincere, and expressive. The DM will understand.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-05-06, 02:42 PM	Keep in mind that being a rules lawyer can work against you if you are doing it correctly. For example, I am regarded by many people I play with as an expert, for why, I have no clue. Most DMs will ask me how a rule goes, or whatnot, and I will tell them. I remember one player thinking it was awesome that I got the DM to rule inf avor of what we were doing ... only to start yelling at me because a half hour later the DM asked how a rule went and this time it wasn't in our favor, and it almost got us killed. However, it was the rule as written, and I was asked what it was, I'm not going to lie to cheat the system.
a_psh 08-05-06, 02:57 PM	Hmmm.....RATSHBFTS....Think it'll catch on?I'd use it. There's certainly a lot of reason to. The glob of consonants at the end isn't very catchy, though.
Crash01234567890 08-05-06, 03:04 PM	It could be hard to remember, but if you think about RAT SH*** BreakFast Till Saturday it'll be easy as pie.
Alric 08-05-06, 03:04 PM	Saying you can get two move actions instead of a standard is very basic and you should bring it up any time you want. The stuff I have notice that gets people mad is like line of sight type or line of effect type stuff. Like a few games ago a player was argueing with the DM about how a line attack can hit 10 feet wide area because it goes down the line between the two targets. Or shooting from the corner of you square is a big one, I have had 2 different DM complain about that one with 2 different players because it gives you some really impossible shots that don't make any sense in real life.
Kursk 08-05-06, 05:57 PM	Just ask the DM for a printed sheet of his house rules. If he's making house rules he should have one to hand.
Salla 08-05-06, 09:19 PM	I remember one player thinking it was awesome that I got the DM to rule inf avor of what we were doing ... only to start yelling at me because a half hour later the DM asked how a rule went and this time it wasn't in our favor, and it almost got us killed. However, it was the rule as written, and I was asked what it was, I'm not going to lie to cheat the system. As a fellow Lawful Good Rules Lawyer, I too have been there and done that. :)
rogue_lettuce 08-06-06, 08:21 AM	As much as I can understand not wanting to argue about the rules all the time as a DM, you should pretty much stand aside if you're claiming you can't use two move actions in a turn, that's a really basic rule that the whole game relies upon! :eek: So I say don't worry about minor things, but when big mistakes like that come up, say "you're completely changing the rules of the game if you're doing it like this, and while it's possible, it's probably going to unbalance a lot of things." (I say this because move actions are seen as "weaker" than standard actions, and he's making standard actions even more powerful, so any class that relies upon move actions to activate some of their abilities is getting nerfed, etc)