Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Natures Corruption 10-11-05, 08:08 PM	I was going to do a Dragon as a character (thinking black, but with a twist): Tell me what you think of my approach to this, and how well it could work. Helpful Information appreciated. The way it was going to work: The region was populated with many different types of dragons. Each clan of dragons, was in war with eachother, and not too far from there, is a ruthless and greedy king, whos family and relatives....were hunted down by dragons (whom those people invaded their homes in the dragons valley). The king, gathered the strongest and wisest of mages from all over the kingdom, and had them devise a way to erradicate the realm of his, of dragons. After a month of thinking it over, they finally came up with the perfect spell, but it had a couple flaws that they did not know of. (Which inturn, affected my character in such a way, as to make it playable.) The spell was cast, and all the dragons and everything physical was destroyed (one effect, destroying all of the riches)...except for the few eggs from each clan of dragon (the other effect). [i] The effects of the curse are as follows: ~ Cannot go beyond 3-5 Sizes. ~ No Superior Complex (means I can suffer from fear and many other things). ~ As most dragons, cannot use weapons/armor/jewelry. ~ Lack of many Traits, such as DragonFear (due to size). ~ Attacks of all sorts are not as strong as they should be. ~ My Statistics are of that of a Dragon of my size class. (no rolling for stats). ~ My Abilities are gained through levels, 1 per level. (I have wings, but have to have the experience to use them, or I cannot see well at night, but learn through practice and training). When my character hatched, it was to dismay and despair. Everything I saw, was skeletonal dragon remains, eggshells and warped terrain. I knew then, that my life was going to be short, as I was too young to feed myself. After a few weeks of wandering around, I finally found a human town. I was filled with fear and amazement, as I thought I was the only living thing around, and was also on the brink of death. Then, someone found me...... And from there, it can be taken as you want: ~ Sold. ~ BeFriended. ~ Slain. ~ EnSlaved. ~ other ideas.... What do you guys think? Would this work as a playable class with low ECL? So technically I would not be overpowered, since my stats would be med-borderline to start. My character may be able to learn to use stuff later on, but that is decided with the GMs.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 10-11-05, 08:17 PM	Cool character idea, but all of that leaves you with nought but... a weak breath weapon? And some weak claws? It might be a little under powered actually. Unless I misread something, which is probably true :rolleyes:
Natures Corruption 10-11-05, 08:46 PM	A little underpowered....yeah, but isn't that technically what people want in a way? If they want to play a dragon, then their party must be their level, or no-go normally. This allows for tweaking, and makes for some interesting RPing from the players and ideas from the GM. Keep em comin!
Dark_Sesshomaru 10-11-05, 09:57 PM	Im trying to figure out how to get a dragon in there aswell. I have a weapon in the game that can transform you into a dragon for 12 hours... I think the most powerful part of a dragon pc is fearful presence. :rolleyes:
Natures Corruption 10-11-05, 10:24 PM	Just imagine this, you are a small little dragon with Bite, Breath, Dual Claw attacks and a tail slap. If you get all of them off, imagine the look on the guys face... Face will be bitten then burnt to a crisp, claws ripping shoulders apart, and tail will....hit em down south. :D
LordofNightmares 10-11-05, 10:38 PM	Presumabally a Dragon's mindset, once it reaches Very Young is about that of a starting adventurer, young, inexpierenced... Stack on that a Very Young Dragon is a +3 LA. So presume you play as a Very Young Black Dragon rasied among humans, at Bery Younf its only 6-15 years old, so its abotu hte same age as starting adventurers. Also as it would be more human like than msot dragons, its alingment may not be Chaotic Evil, (Remeber Always CE in the MM means that if raised in a Black Dragon community it will be CE, not that it can't not be CE). That also means that your age levels will not come into play for a very long time (about 15 years of ingame story time), so you can pick up levels normally. And you have only the powers up to and including Very Young, and thats it.
Natures Corruption 10-11-05, 11:16 PM	Yeah, I was just bored and started thinking, and got the idea of putting it together this way. It gives alot more ideas and possibilities than a normal big-bad dragon. And as you said, since the mindset would be different than one found completely in BFE. My thoughts on alignment, are this: If you are a Necromancer, and the town you are in is going to be overrun by goblins/orcs and the like, you could raise the dead from the local graveyard to create a small army to stop the invasion. If you were to right-out do it without consent of anyone, then you would be Chaotic and Evil, because it is desecration of graves and long-past loved ones. But if you ask the town and plead with them and the mayor of the town, and they give you the OK, then it is not Chaotic or Evil and can be considered Lawful and Good because they said OK, and you are defending them. One can also say that the undead return to their resting places afterwards to try to make amends afterwards.
LordofNightmares 10-12-05, 03:59 AM	As we have agreed this is way off topic, but, here's my view on that The raising of the dead never good, unless the culture as a whole accepts it. but it can be Lawful (and in your listed situation). The attacking Goblins don't really see themselves as evil because that culture sees pillaging as perfectly normal and alright. Using the bodies of the dead to defend the town is doing a typically evil thing for a good reason... A Neutral act. If done without the consent of the town council, it would be a chaotic neutral act (yes Chaotic Neutral behavior can be something other than bat-[explative deleted] insanity). If done with the consent of the community, it would be a Lawful Neutral act. But this leads into my biggest gripe with Alignment and Alignment Behavior. The alignments in the PhB are shown as arcetypes of behavior, but are not really indicitive of what that sort of behavior and mindsets are, sicne characters should not know their own alignment unless their are powered by it (such as Monks and Paladins). Alignment should also be a reflection of the norm. Lets say in the Fell Kingdom of Greystone (a place in my home grown world), the ruler is undead (A death Knight to be exact) so it is perfectly normal and understood that undeath is a common occurance. Animating the Dead is not viewed as an Evil Act there, though many from other nations would be apalled by it, so that situation you described would be a common occurance, some warriors would even hope for that, allowing them to protect their homes even after they have died. In a place like that there could even be Lawful Good Paladins who would beg for an afterlife of undeath to protect their loved ones for eternity... It seems odd, but in a place where undeath is normal it could happen. ... Oops, I guess I went of on that rant longer than I thought I would.
digoraccoon 10-12-05, 08:43 AM	It's interesting. I'd say try it and see if it works out. :)
primemover003 10-12-05, 09:19 AM	Check out Dragon magazine issues #320 (for metallics) and #332 (for chromatics). These provide Savage Species type monster progressions for playuing a dragon!!!
Mirikon 10-12-05, 10:32 AM	I was going to do a Dragon as a character (thinking black, but with a twist): Tell me what you think of my approach to this, and how well it could work. Helpful Information appreciated. The way it was going to work: The region was populated with many different types of dragons. Each clan of dragons, was in war with eachother, and not too far from there, is a ruthless and greedy king, whos family and relatives....were hunted down by dragons (whom those people invaded their homes in the dragons valley). The king, gathered the strongest and wisest of mages from all over the kingdom, and had them devise a way to erradicate the realm of his, of dragons. After a month of thinking it over, they finally came up with the perfect spell, but it had a couple flaws that they did not know of. (Which inturn, affected my character in such a way, as to make it playable.) The spell was cast, and all the dragons and everything physical was destroyed (one effect, destroying all of the riches)...except for the few eggs from each clan of dragon (the other effect). [i] The effects of the curse are as follows: ~ Cannot go beyond 3-5 Sizes. ~ No Superior Complex (means I can suffer from fear and many other things). ~ As most dragons, cannot use weapons/armor/jewelry. ~ Lack of many Traits, such as DragonFear (due to size). ~ Attacks of all sorts are not as strong as they should be. ~ My Statistics are of that of a Dragon of my size class. (no rolling for stats). ~ My Abilities are gained through levels, 1 per level. (I have wings, but have to have the experience to use them, or I cannot see well at night, but learn through practice and training). When my character hatched, it was to dismay and despair. Everything I saw, was skeletonal dragon remains, eggshells and warped terrain. I knew then, that my life was going to be short, as I was too young to feed myself. After a few weeks of wandering around, I finally found a human town. I was filled with fear and amazement, as I thought I was the only living thing around, and was also on the brink of death. Then, someone found me...... And from there, it can be taken as you want: ~ Sold. ~ BeFriended. ~ Slain. ~ EnSlaved. ~ other ideas.... What do you guys think? Would this work as a playable class with low ECL? So technically I would not be overpowered, since my stats would be med-borderline to start. My character may be able to learn to use stuff later on, but that is decided with the GMs. Bah. Just grab a copy of Draconomicon, which has a whole section in it on dragons as members of the party. This is overcomplicated.
Lionhearted 10-12-05, 11:59 AM	the dragons from draconomicon has far to much racial hd/la for the average low, mid or even high lvl party what he want isnt to play a wyrmling at lvl 15 he just want to play a dragon that still doesnt use dipers :P
Natures Corruption 10-12-05, 01:10 PM	Bah. Just grab a copy of Draconomicon, which has a whole section in it on dragons as members of the party. This is overcomplicated. As for over complicated, anything in D&D can be over complicated, just because it is different from the ways you look at things, do not shun or look down on it. And I forgot, Not everything can be simple and easily done. Because if you want something, you have to Think to figure out a way. This also seemed fairly easy for me, and I have not done D&D in quite a while, due to friends being all over the USA instead of in California now. This just sheds some light on the possibilities of doing a dragon, in a different sense. Lionhearted got it. I can search online all I want for the various things. Draconomicon may have what I am looking for, Dragon Magazine may have what I am looking for, but sometimes personal ideas can bridge the gap between "Possible PC Race" and "Definate PC Race". What I am trying to do, is have a Dragon, that pretty much got the ****ed Stick a few too many times, and is now trying to get revenge for it (later in life, but not too later), and trying to become what it could be. Since it is technically a curse that would hit my character before being hatched, then couldn't it gain all sorts of possible abilities while losing many? What about a Black Dragon using a form of holy magic, due to its bond with a human in the town, or the ability to enhance someone else (aka Familiar, in a sense). I gave a basic idea, and this is what allows so much flexability and future campaigns with it. Because since it was hit with an unknown curse (which wiped almost everything near it out), gave it a different PoV and understanding. Many many storylines could work with creature, due to its low +LA. This would mainly be for those who want to try a dragon, gimped yes, but to try it, in a low level team. You can say that a couple levels in, you find him, weak and on the verge of death. The mage decided to make the first move and try to befriend it by giving it nourishment and healing it to prevent it from dying due to large wounds. That is one example, and from then on, the dragon and the mage bond, similar to a Mage/Familiar scenario, but more open. The mages' spells work a little better/has more of them, while the dragon learns alot about the mage and gains ability in spellcasting n such. It is up to you, I just gave an opening.....
Mirikon 10-12-05, 01:46 PM	the dragons from draconomicon has far to much racial hd/la for the average low, mid or even high lvl party what he want isnt to play a wyrmling at lvl 15 he just want to play a dragon that still doesnt use dipers :P Actually, a Wyrmling White is acceptable as a PC at Level 5. A Young Shadow Dragon is acceptable at level 13. For most of the first twenty levels, most of the true dragon varieties have a +3 or +4 LA. Really not bad considering the power you got. Pages 141 to 144 in Draconomicon have a nice section on ways to include Dragon PCs, including advancement and aging. As for over complicated, anything in D&D can be over complicated, just because it is different from the ways you look at things, do not shun or look down on it. I am not looking down on it, per se. I'm just saying why should you reinvent the wheel, when there's already a horse and buggy sitting next to you? Dragons are powerful creatures, which is why they have racial HD and an LA. Draconomicon has an entire section in it on playing dragons as PCs. On page 142, there is a table showing the MM True Dragon varieties, and it breaks each one by age in years with collumns for Age, Age Category, HD, LA, and ECL, starting at age 0 for a just hatched wyrmling, and going through ECL 20. It has a system where every few years in game, when the dragon levels up, the next level it takes must be a 'dragon level', which advances racial HD, natrual AC, saves, etc., unless it is one of the levels that increases the dragon's LA. Basically, it works like this. A wyrmling white just hatched has an ECL of 5. Say over the next year, it gains a level. This would be a PC class level. Shortly after the dragon's second birthday, it gains a second level. According to the table, the dragon has to take a dragon level now, so the dragon would be a 4 HD Wyrmling white with one PC class level, for an ECL of 7. Now say in the next 14 years, it only picks up 6 levels. It would now be a 16 year old Young White dragon with a single PC class level, with an ECL of 13. Now say business really picked up, and in the next year, the dragon got 7 levels. These would all be class levels, so the Dragon would be a Young White, with 8 PC levels, for an ECL of 20. Do you get to be a Great Wyrm Dragon like this short of epic levels? Of course not. But the big dragons are powerhouses, and a dragon with CR 20 is supposed to be able to be a suitably difficult challenge for four level 20 PCs. To have an old red dragon (CR 20, 28 HD) in the party would be unbalancing. Lionhearted got it. I can search online all I want for the various things. Draconomicon may have what I am looking for, Dragon Magazine may have what I am looking for, but sometimes personal ideas can bridge the gap between "Possible PC Race" and "Definate PC Race". What I am trying to do, is have a Dragon, that pretty much got the ****ed Stick a few too many times, and is now trying to get revenge for it (later in life, but not too later), and trying to become what it could be. Since it is technically a curse that would hit my character before being hatched, then couldn't it gain all sorts of possible abilities while losing many? What about a Black Dragon using a form of holy magic, due to its bond with a human in the town, or the ability to enhance someone else (aka Familiar, in a sense). I gave a basic idea, and this is what allows so much flexability and future campaigns with it. Because since it was hit with an unknown curse (which wiped almost everything near it out), gave it a different PoV and understanding. Many many storylines could work with creature, due to its low +LA. This would mainly be for those who want to try a dragon, gimped yes, but to try it, in a low level team. You can say that a couple levels in, you find him, weak and on the verge of death. The mage decided to make the first move and try to befriend it by giving it nourishment and healing it to prevent it from dying due to large wounds. That is one example, and from then on, the dragon and the mage bond, similar to a Mage/Familiar scenario, but more open. The mages' spells work a little better/has more of them, while the dragon learns alot about the mage and gains ability in spellcasting n such. It is up to you, I just gave an opening..... Honestly, this sounds more like a plot device than a PC. If you're looking to do a kind of 'bonded pair' thing, where a PC and a dragon are linked somehow, there are also suggestions on how to do that in Draconomicon. While this is definately an interesting plot device, it isn't really letting a player play a dragon. Its letting them play a demidragon, at best.
Natures Corruption 10-12-05, 02:03 PM	I was giving an example on how one situation can go, I gave the idea to a friend of mine to look at, and said a GM he knows would have a laugh doing it. Mainly because you can play the same team multiple times and have MANY different outcomes. As I was saying, just think of what can happen......that was a situation where...it was more harmed than helped by the situation before its hatching. Another could be an infusion of power from all the dragons that were dying, into the egg. Resulting in a demi-god powerful dragon. Another could be complete loss of instincts and abilities. More could be gaining other abilities like Mind Control or other things. One major catastrophe, king to overthrow (players could be doing this automatically before my guy gets in game), Massive area to explore with possible riches and who knows what mutated creatures.... And I was also thinking, to reduce the ECL to 0 possibly: Since stats are static (with age category), you cannot roll perfects, thus being "uber". You also cannot roll complete duds, thus being weaker than.....well you get it. Flying can be gained after meeting a certain NPC who has knowledge on the stuff of flight, and other things by other people, or over time. Or it could all be randomly gained, with the dragon starting super weak to start, and slowly, even slower than normal progression, gain the power and abilities. Lets say Flight at Level 5 (poor maneuverability, slow movement, short air-time), while leveling to 15, it slowly becomes better, adding time in the air and the others increasing as well. Breath weapon would be a lil harder to work with (or any at all...). Multi-attack, too clumsy at first, but learns as it levels. Yeah there are other ideas floating around like this, but how many Home-Brew Elves are there on the boards? tons. How many Home-Brew ideas are there for dragons, not..too..many... And I have looked around alot. And you never know, this idea may be adapted to various things and easier to work with. All it takes is a clever GM to make most anything work. And I did mention earlier on top, the highest age category this particular disaster-surviving hatchling can get, is maybe 3-5 age categories. So there are no super strong dragon possibilities.