Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tual Masok 04-17-05, 12:20 PM	Hello all, We have a problem in our campaign and maybe you got some helpfull advice.... We need to get to a dragonslair to get 2 items out of it, but the problem is: The lair is underground beneeth a large pool of water( 2 miles across) the dragon can swim because a partymember was attacked by it in the water. we are low on magic items, and do not have the money to buy them.(low magic campaign) in our party we have: lvl 5 mage/2incantrix(just gained the 7th level so need to pick some spells) (sunelf) lvl 7 cleric of Thalos (dwarf) lvl 3 barbarian/3fighter thiefling lvl 7 deva lvl 3 rogue/3 wizard elf We do not want to battle the back dragon outside(do not know his age but he is "only" large, we prefer to fight him inside his lair, but how can we get there, without getting killed in the water by the dragon? Like i said we are very low on magic items, we got now 2 light maces +1 i believe and not many scrolls(not had the time to write them) if you want a spell list just ask i will post it then, but i still can select 2 lvl 4th spells. Any advice is welcome, thanks in advance
Draco Strang 04-17-05, 12:34 PM	What kind of dragon is it? Find out what type of energy it is most vulnerable to, prepare those spells/scrolls, and have at it.
fallabel 04-17-05, 02:07 PM	It's almost certainly a black dragon. I'm curious about why the dragon would know that you're coming. For instance, if it's hanging out inside its lair, it shouldn't know about your approach, so it shouldn't come out to intercept you. Unless there's a good reason (e.g. sentries), the DM is metagaming if the dragon meets you outside the lair. Next, since it's Large, it's either a Young Adult or an Adult, so the Challenge Rating is somewhere between 9 and 11. Also, there's likely an entrance to the lair on land, hidden by vegetation (from the dragon's Plant Growth spell like ability).
Bane 04-17-05, 02:21 PM	I'm curious about why you would rather face the dragon in it's lair. Think about it, would you rather fight someone in a neutral place, or a place you are incredibly familiar with? If I had the choice between fighting someone in a dark alley, or in my home, I would choose my home. In my home, I know where I keep the steak knives, and that could be all the advantage I need. If I were the dragon, and I knew someone was after me, I would want them to fight their way into my house, then beat them down. If I was really sneaky, I would wait until they entered my lair, sneak out through the submerged entrance, and seal all of the other entrances. Then I could wait until they either died of starvation, or go back in and fight them. There is nothing scarier than a well-played dragon on his home turf.
fallabel 04-17-05, 02:37 PM	At least in its lair, they don't have to worry as much about it just flying around and strafing them with acid breath. Plus, the stuff they need is in the lair, and the dragon won't leave it unguarded for long.
DrMorganes 04-17-05, 03:27 PM	At least in its lair, they don't have to worry as much about it just flying around and strafing them with acid breath. Plus, the stuff they need is in the lair, and the dragon won't leave it unguarded for long. Riiiight. Instead you need to worry about it swimming around and strafing with acid breath. Aquatic dragons can use their breath weapons underwater. At least if its in the air you can see it coming and target it with missile weapons. Even the youngest dragons know the value of living to fight another day. Pressed, ANY dragon will abandon its horde in favor of preserving its life. Wealth is easy to acquire. Life is substantially more difficult - especially when one is dead. If your DM is using information from the Draconomicon you can count on the CR for an in-lair encounter to be at least 2 higher than the dragon's age would suggest.
Tual Masok 04-17-05, 04:38 PM	Thanks already for all your time to reply, i will put some additional info here what I forgot to mention. He got a lair somewhere hidden(a cave) but we found the only entrance is underwater (at least we think) The dragon knows we are there, because we have encountered him already but he was smart enough to fly away when he was hurt.. We want to fight him in his lair because we got no shelter for aprox 2 days travel. We are now in winter times so trees are not helping either. Dm is using Draconomicon for 99.9% sure The dragon is black. I do not think he can breath underwater but still does enough damage and we can not fight well in the water. Scrolls scribing is a nice plan, but i am affraid that we do not have to much time.But why does te dragon not come out of his lair and beat the crap out of us while we are easy targets that is what we are worried about... The items we search are some "artifacts" from a temple of Gond. Thanks for your imput so far and please keep up the idea's Missle weapons we aint got enough(if any, not very smart but hey it happens ))
fallabel 04-17-05, 05:30 PM	It can definitely use its breath weapon underwater. If it hasn't, then your DM just doesn't know that it works that way.
TranquilDarkness 04-17-05, 05:55 PM	I'm a member of the party as well, playing the cleric of Talos. I was hoping acid breath wouldn't work under water. If it does, that's bad - but manageable with protection from energy spells. We have very few options against a flying dragon - swimming is only marginably better, I'd say. His lair is also populated by some large spiders we have to contend with.
Mirikon 04-17-05, 06:50 PM	Offer a burnt sacrifice to the Dice Gods before the game session. I find that an annoying sibling works well for this purpose. Then hope for the best, because it sounds like, while you do have a chance, you're most likely going to die.
Nidair 04-18-05, 11:40 AM	The smarter dragons also scry, especially when they know someone wants to reduce 'im to pieces.
fallabel 04-18-05, 03:09 PM	Black dragons are vulnerable to electricity, right? (I'm not sure of that, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.) If so, draw the dragon out of the lair, and lightening bolt the lake. (Obviously you'd have to hit a spot on the surface near where the dragon is.) That's at least a good way to open up the combat, though it won't solve your problem completely.
Uberman 04-19-05, 08:26 AM	I know this isn't helpful, but if given the choice, I WOULDN'T fight a dragon in it's lair.. But that's probably because I've seen (and DM'd) way too many dragons.. They're the easiest way to TPK in the books. Unless you need them to save people or something, the items are probably not worth it. 'specially since the dragon will probably survive even if you DO win, and come back to get revenge/it's hoard back when you aren't ready for it. The only thing I can suggest is if you do get into the fight, keep it in as confined a space as possible and try to make it make reflex saves.. that's what they're worst at. Also, if it's old enough to have spellcasting ability, Dispel it b/c it's probably going to be buffed. Head into the fight with Detect Magic on. EDIT: And no, they're not weak against electricity.. well, no more weak than any other Giant flying lizard of doom with SR.
fallabel 04-19-05, 08:33 AM	Oops. Also, a dragon of that size should only be able to cast 1st level spells, so that isn't too much of a concern.
Tual Masok 04-19-05, 09:22 AM	So the best thing actualy is to drop the quest here :( well if you got any moe idea's i am willing to hear them, because i still wanna defeat the dragon haha
fallabel 04-19-05, 11:39 AM	Why is it that you need the items from the lair? Wanting to fight inside the lair really does complicate things. Also, the dragon will have an AC of at least 24 (possibly up to 30). At 7th level, with only +1 weapons, you'll have some trouble hitting it with anything other than spells.
Tual Masok 04-19-05, 12:17 PM	To make it short, the fighter had an curse on him( or disease) wich had been cured by some followers of Gond in a temple, they asked us (instead of payment because we did not had enough money to pay them) to get 2 items, wich had been in a city. But the we founded out that the dragon has these items. And I do not want to fight the drag inside his lair, but i tought that that was the best option.. Also i still got the idea of, dimension door inside, grab the items and Dimension door out, but i think it will not be that easy ;)
ssvegeta555 04-19-05, 07:36 PM	Why not travel to a nearby town to freshen up or at least someplace safe? You should really get some more missile weapons just in case the dragon takes to the air. Also while you at town or at a safe place you can scribe some scrolls to aid you in the battle. And, If your out of food use survival checks to find berries ect. to eat or hunt animals.
kam_Islash 04-19-05, 07:43 PM	Level up to epic. Get devastating critical and a pair of Kukris. Thats what i suggest. ///
Daoud 04-19-05, 08:05 PM	All of the lesser orb spells in Complete Arcane or Minature Handbook are dragon killing spells. Dragons have pitifully bad touch AC and their SR doesn't apply to these spells. You have fourth level spells? Can you say maximized lesser electric orbs? Have your mage types memorize as many as possible and get the dragon occupied by your fighters. Don't fight the dragon in the water if your party isn't well adapted for water. My two copper pieces, "Son of the Keep of the Borderlands"
Bane 04-20-05, 12:56 AM	Run. It will probably be easier to run from the temple of Gond than it will be for you to kill the dragon.
Kynn Elfson 04-20-05, 01:29 AM	yeah, go appoligize to the dragon, give him something shiny and tell the dragon that you were tricked into attacking the dragon by an evil group of priests, but you realised that you were facing the oh-so-powerful quasi-godlike dragon [enter draconic name here]!!! You were enraged to find out that the coniving priests would commit such a stupid act and now you want revenge!! Inform the dragon that you hate the priests and that you would be fully willing to aid him in their destruction, he can take the booty and whatnot, all you want is revenge for being tricked and shamed!! Thus you gain a powerful ally, kill the stupid Gondians, and then have a certain hoard to loot one day when the stupid dragon is to weak to fight you!! MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA everyone wins, except the dragon, and the priests!! but MEH fack those dudes.
Bane 04-20-05, 02:39 AM	Actually, that's not a bad idea. If you can pit the dragon against the Gondians (Gondites? Gondists?), then you should be able to put yourself in a position to profit.
Kynn Elfson 04-20-05, 02:54 AM	When you're not strong enough to best your opponent openly, use clever tactics, if your tactics are not clever enough, then cheat!! Why should those of us who are "below-par" be penalised by what the Universe didn't give us, why should the spoils go to the strong, or the smart, or the beautiful?! I say cheating is the gift Man gave himself. Go get yer ass some spoils.
fractal 04-20-05, 03:49 AM	Oops. Also, a dragon of that size should only be able to cast 1st level spells, so that isn't too much of a concern. Still important to Dispel it. One Mage Armor can really ruin a Fighter's day. I'll have to side with those that think going after it in its lair is a crazy idea. Even with time to prepare, the standard MM Adult Black Dragon is 4 CRs above your party. And it's a dragon, they're under-CR'd to begin with. And if it actually has feats, especially from the Draconomicon, it really ought to be granted additional CR. And you're going into it's lair. Mass Resist Energy could mostly take care of the breath weapon, but you'll still probably get mauled by melee combat.
Callista 04-20-05, 07:18 AM	Hmm... lair... That water entrance? Is there a way to collapse it? Because, if there is... you will either know about the backdoor entrance when the dragon comes out of it, or you will have closed off the only entrance the dragon has. In which case, wait around until the dragon starves. :P
Derren S. 04-20-05, 09:36 AM	Hmm... lair... That water entrance? Is there a way to collapse it? Because, if there is... you will either know about the backdoor entrance when the dragon comes out of it, or you will have closed off the only entrance the dragon has. In which case, wait around until the dragon starves. :P Too bad that dragons can eat stone.
Catra 04-20-05, 09:38 AM	Lure the dragon out of the water, then have the dwarf propel the barbarian in top of its head. I killed a young Red Dragon that way. Or course, it cost the lives of a few NPC bounty hunters...but I think that was just my sword poking his brain, making him crazy. I was level 10 or 12 (multiclass Fighter/Sorcerer) at the time, so your guys shouldn't do too bad. As long as you don't fall off, you should be okay. Your best bet is to retreat and (over)prepare, so that you can make sure no one dies. If the Gondies can use resurrection spells, go back and make them promise to resurrect anyone in your pary who dies, even if it means you have to do another service for them.
TranquilDarkness 04-20-05, 12:24 PM	Well, the dragon probably isn't an adult - and the last time it attacked us left the definite impression we can handle the beast. Under the right circumstances. And there's the problem. As said, we're camping in an area filled with snow and the occasional (undead) monster - the nearest town is about five days on horse (or Mount spell, more likely). We have found out 1 weakness in the beast: long toes. An insult provoked it into attacking in a disadvantageous position so trying that is definitely an option. Thanks for the input sofar :)
Cabaal 04-21-05, 03:36 PM	You mentioned it was winter, but the only entrance was under a pool of water? Is it cold enough to freeze the water? If the pool of water is outside and frozen, how did you find the entrance? Break through the ice and swim down? I would assume if it's outside and NOT frozen, this would present the largest problem. Is the pool of water in a cavern of some type? If so, my recommendation would be for the party to sit and wait at the pool of water for some period for the dragon to emerge. You may be able to set up some nasty ambush-style traps there (although if the pool is large enough, this may not be an option). I would recommend sitting and waiting, regardless of what the weather is like outside, even if you had not had shelter for several days. If it's winter and the water is outside and not frozen, the water is going to be between 32 and 40 degrees (give or take). Even if the water is underground, the temperature itself will probably kill your party before the dragon even knows you're there. Even with water breathing spells, I think many parties would have trouble making the 2 mile journey in freezing cold water.
TranquilDarkness 04-22-05, 02:28 AM	Basically we're on an open plain with snow and the water - which is a lake about 1.5 by 2 miles wide. The lake is frozen over, except for a big hole in the middle, easily large enough for the dragon to pass through. 2 characters have cold resistance, and with spells we could help the rest, a bit.
Deacon Liadon 04-22-05, 04:59 AM	Too bad that dragons can eat stone. Ummm…actually………… They can… Dragons can eat anything… Including their hoardes if it becomes necessery.
Yoho1.5 04-22-05, 09:44 PM	Wait it out it will eventually leave its lair and then you can fight it in the open and save the waterbreathing spell slots for Protection from acid and buffs.
Derren S. 04-23-05, 03:30 AM	Ummm…actually………… They can… Have I said something different?
CJDragon 04-23-05, 08:30 AM	random idea's.... Put razor wire over the hole in the lake, so if he tries to fly out he gets sliced. Hire some aquatic merc's to ecort you to the entrance.... there must be aquatics merc's somewhere.... if not then after you finish this mission you should make them a union!!! They need better representation... Im not sure how keen a dragons sense of smell is, but if its good enough you could put some blood in the water to attrack it out... Disguise most of your party to look injured, so if it is scrying on you, then it will think your weaker than you are offer it a gift of as many sp as you can get. The MM says that they like coins above most other things, so you could probably trade for the artifacts. Especially if he doesn't know they're artifacts. It says they like "pickled" meat as well, so put some meat in the lake and leave it, after a few days it should attract it out...
MarkB 04-23-05, 09:01 AM	When the dragon's in the water and you're not, start throwing Cones of Cold. Frozen dracopopsicle. :)
Kolo 04-23-05, 09:43 AM	Get a cleric who can turn the dragon's elemental type to help you, which IIRC is water... :D make some serious use of every no-SR-allowed spell you can possibly think of. Spring surprises on the dragon from all over; the Orb spells from CA are one thought. Draw it out of its preferred environment. It can breathe its lethal breath underwater, true; but your own AoE spells should work down there too. Disturb it's lair from the outside (like with noise, spells or just common explosive substances) and use AoE's on the lake until the dragon is forced to leave it in order to attack you. A wand or three can help there; the important thing is not SR, it's being annoying enough. Besides, keeping it up just might result in one or two getting through the dragon's SR. Exploit his relatively low Reflex save. (Also, you can disturb the dragon's favored hunting grounds to the point that he'll have to attack you out of annoyance. Taking a dragon's favorite food away from them is one mean way to get them angry.) Know your enemy. A black dragon's favored trick is to ambush you when you least expect it. If it hasn't retaliated against you by now, it's safe to say its lair is now a deathtrap-if it wasn't before. Do anything but getting ambushed by the dragon. He can easily compensate for lost tactics, but at least you're not completely at his mercy. finally, there's always another option. Lure the dragon away from its lair somehow and just plain break and enter. Steal your artifacts, and anything else you can get your grubby hands on (especially the dragon's favorite; coins!), and get to a fortified position (like, say, any place the dragon can't fly or use its great size to the fullest). Now you've removed him from his lair, made him angry and can fight him on your terms. This is the most difficult option, requiring some brilliant method of drawing the dragon out forlong enough- as to that, I'll leave that to your imagination. (In case you're wondering, yes I own and like the Draconomicon. :))
Aneul 04-23-05, 11:46 AM	The best way to combat a dragon without DR is with missle weapons. Therefore, it will be well worth the five day trip back to civilization to aquire said weapons, and the trip might have the advantageous side effect of convincing the dragon that you lot have given up and decided to leave it alone. Once you return with your bows, use the snow to your advantage, create obstacles behindwhich to hide wile you shoot at the beast. While a kid with a spade can get through a snow wall, even a dragon can't see though one. more later.