Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BIG NASTY 01-04-04, 01:19 AM	Ok, we the players, who are about do be fried like potatoes, are hired to fight mr. big nasty dragon guy...were averageing bout 6th level..and the ruler of this land has givin us pretty anything we need....so now what? tactics, seige weapons, sunscreen?
Wizard 01-04-04, 01:26 AM	Dragons are freaking scary. Good saves, very good Con and a d12 HD, way too many attacks per round, a breath weapon, flight, natural armor that will stop tank shells, SR, good BAB, high Strength, and spellcasting. Any party attempting to take on a dragon had better be well-prepared. That said, I've only found two weaknesses: Their elemental subtype and their weak touch AC. The elemental weakness plays a larger role at low levels, where the dragon probably can't compensate for it yet. Double damage goes a long way, effectively doubling spell slots\successful hits. At higher levels, the dragon's Dex hasn't gone any higher, while he or she has gotten a lot bigger. Ranged touch attack spells are the way to go. I find the lowly ray of enfeeblement very helpful. A quickened version plus a non-quickened version for two or three rounds will net you a very weak dragon. Good luck, and be ready to run faster than some other party member.
Crono 01-04-04, 04:03 AM	Tell him you need an epic level wizard, fighter, rogue, and cleric. :D
Mister Mayhem 01-04-04, 04:22 AM	A dragons powers (including its physical prowess) are pretty similar to a whole adventuring party wrapped up into one being. The best advantage you have, then, is the fact that the party can use four different "powers" every round. The advantage the dragon has is that it can do a lot of damage in a very short amount of time, maybe enough to KO party members. This adds up to two general tactics: 1) Spread out. In no circumstances put ourselves in a position where the dragon can attack more than one person at a time. 2) Hammer it! Don't hold back, unleash as much firepower every round as you possibly can. Get it over with as quickly as possible. Beyond that, it very much depends on the dragon and on the terrain on which you will be fighting it. If you can do so without risking an immediate confrontation, spend some time getting as much info on the beast as you can. And why have you been asked to take it down? Maybe because it is raiding villages? If so, you might do well to set a trap of some kind. EG if it is known to snatch cattle, you might be able to force feed a cow a large number of large stones that have been shrunk down with the item spell. The wizard can end the item spell after the cow has been swallowed, which if nothing else should seriously inconvenience the dragon in question. Be warned, however, that the dragon isn't stupid. Any trap set needs to be something that would fool an intelligent foe, not a dangerous animal.
kami 01-04-04, 04:24 AM	I'm guessing you're quite out of luck. But you should know what kind of dragon we're talking about here. And preferably size. Some of the smaller dragons haven't developed Spell Resistance yet. However, a CR 8 White Dragon has. Such a dragon finds it very difficult to save against a scroll of Lower Spell Resistance (from Draconomicon). One such scroll, and you can use Scorching rays (4d6 * 1.5 for vulnerability)to bring him down. Scorching rays don't allow for reflex saves, like Fireball does. And with a SR of 6, your 6th level casters will have to roll a 1 or higher on a d20... Or go with Ray of enfeeblement. Five of those and he is at 1 STR (reduced his to hit with 9 and damage with an equal ammount). Buy some 3 or 4 Scrolls of Lower Spell Resistance in case he does have SR. Just my 2 cents.
Derren S. 01-04-04, 04:26 AM	Any dragon which give a king (or other ruler) headaches is likely to strong for a 6th level party. Ask the King to give you about 300 archers each one armed with 2-3 magical arrows. Du to the weak DR dragons have now and the 20 autohit rule it sould be possible to kill the dragon before he comes near you (And sends the archers running)
Yoho1.5 01-04-04, 01:15 PM	Numerous posters suggested multipule RoE, but I don't think that would work in 3.5. RoE strikes the target with a strenght penalty not ability damage, so it doesn't stack with itself. See PHB pg 269 for spell discription, and PHB pg 171 under the the heading stacking effects. I DM, so I don't visit the players board offen, but I believe that players should really read your PHB. If any of you missinterpreted RoE addicts were at my game table my dragons would mop the floor with you. :smirk:
Wizard 01-04-04, 05:27 PM	:blush: You're right. I was under the impression that RoE did strength damage, rather than imposing a penalty..
underpantsgnome 01-04-04, 06:11 PM	Have a Fighter ans rouge flank the thing giving bonuses to both and letting the rogue sneak attack the thing. Then have the cleric cast "Shield Other" on both of them BEFORE COMBAT starts and load him up with potions of cure serious wounds; keep those suckers going down until he cant do it anymore, dismiss the spells and then and only then will the ftr and rogue take damage. Yes, dragons have high saves and SR, but try any way. have the spell caster cast true strike etc before battle and at least try to damage the thing.
prospero63 01-05-04, 12:25 AM	Go find some other mission...
Aucturos 01-05-04, 01:24 AM	Hire someone else to fight it for you.... Or pout your way into having a higher level good party of adventurers do it because you need it so badly... Other than that, umm... Bring ketchup and a bun big enough for the halflings in your party.
celloshane 01-05-04, 02:06 AM	You mentioned seige weapons and you may have had the right line of thinking there. If you can somehow lure the dragon into a trap, a couple of ballista may be just the ticket. 3d8 damage per person, although you have to hit the thing. Another thing to consider when in melee is reach. Spears and other weapons of the like may be useful. If you can, have someone on a horse that can do a rideby attack with a lance. There is a reason knights could supposedly take on a dragon singlehandedly, lances are freakin' awesome. Like Mister Mayhem said, stay spread out and don't let the dragon use it's breath attack against more than one of you. Will you be fighting in the dragon's lair? If so there is much more to prepare for than simply the dragon itself. Once again, the type of dragon would be useful, as would a rough sketch of your party and it's resources. I'll leave you with this, from the 2nd edition Draconomicon: These two things above all: exhaust his distance attacks, and prevent his flight. Do these things and you will probably triumph. Once he gains the skies and still retains his breath weapon or magic, unless the gods smile upon you, you are lost. Remember strike him greviously from the outset. An injured dragon cannot fly. Do not let him close. Engage in melee only if there are no alternatives available to you. Never accept a surrender from an evil dragon, he will not honor it.
BIG NASTY 01-06-04, 12:36 AM	Good replies guys,to respond to some of the post here. My DM is very aware of our groups experience i alone have been playin since like 96' and we have done sme trully nasty things under many a DM so we have no qualms about him throwing us against something bigger than normal. heck anytime one of us is armed with more than 50 feet of rope were considered to have an additional +2 to our CR. lol i was thinking of using the ballista idea..with some dragon bane enhancment..and the new exit wound feature we found in the fighters guide. maybe some catapults with a huge ass net a few npcs and alot of luck the last idea is a long shot, somthin i saw back in an old edition of Knights of the dinner table..we challange the dragon to a wine tasting test all bottles (clearly labeled) are filled with poisened wine..the last with a polymorph potion.. the dragon may smell the poison, so may drink the polymorph..we change em into a toad and smish em......... but i don't think one can make a polymorph potion poo!
Mitchell 01-06-04, 01:31 AM	Originally posted by BIG NASTY Ok, we the players, who are about do be fried like potatoes, are hired to fight mr. big nasty dragon guy...were averageing bout 6th level..and the ruler of this land has givin us pretty anything we need....so now what? tactics, seige weapons, sunscreen? But we still don't know the type and age/size of the beast. Spreading out and attacking all out are the only general things. The polymorph potion thing won't work because the dragon will control the polymorph ability, and is actually probably not too worried about poison anyway, if it is very powerful.
BIG NASTY 01-06-04, 01:40 AM	Sorry forgot to add that..DM has confirmed it was a red dragon...but he was vauge on the age...prolly large size at least But how could the dragon control the polymorph?..if it fails it's save it'll be turned into a newt or somethin stupid..it can only resist if it passes it's save
kami 01-06-04, 03:11 AM	Originally posted by BIG NASTY But how could the dragon control the polymorph?..if it fails it's save it'll be turned into a newt or somethin stupid..it can only resist if it passes it's save Yes, it seems you are right. If he fails his Fortitude and save, he'll not lose any extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like and spells unless he fails his Will save though. He still won't have any chance of reverting to his usual form. I think Mitchell was thinking of the 3.0 Red Dragon, which could assume alternate form IIRC. I would houserule the Baleful Polymorph to allow Druids and Dragons capable of assuming natural form to be able to revert to the natural form as a standard action. Why only allow shapechanger subtype to do it? Unless he's a huge dragon, you're in luck. For that's when he gains Spell Resistance (21, ouch). Edit: Instead of a Potion of Baleful Polymorph, why not use a Potion of Slay Living? Same chance to get through a Fort save.
David777 01-06-04, 07:14 AM	are you playing 3.0 or 3.5? because 3.0 telikenesis and a barrel full of +1 frost arrows are a nasty combo:smirk:
Mitchell 01-07-04, 12:48 AM	I was actually referring to a polymorph self potion, but now that I look, I don't see any standard polymorphing potions in the DMG. It doesn't really matter, as the dragon is just as likely to save against poison or a potion of any sort. Go cold. Wand of ice storm, staff of frost, icy burst weapons, etc. Another thought is a rod of flame extinguishing. Back this up with whatever fire resistance you can muster... Of course, if you can lay your hands on a talisman of the sphere (and the sphere), all this is wasted effort. :D
Vanigo 01-07-04, 03:27 AM	You've basically got two things to worry about: His breath weapon, and his melee ability. If he's old enough to have spells worth worrying about, you're dead anyway. He probably won't have any spells above first level. Get your hands on some nice rings of fire resistance to take care of the former. You'll probably still take some damage, but not too much. As for the latter: ray of enfeeblement and ray of exhaustion are going to be your best friends for this battle. Both require ranged touch attacks, which should be easy. Both reduce the dragon's strength. Ray of exhaustion allows a save, but even on a succesful save (which is extremely likely) the dragon will be fatigued. A second ray of exhaustion will then automatically exhaust the dragon. Between the two spells, the dragon's strength will be lowered by, IIRC, 1d6+9 points, and his dexterity will be down 6 points, which should be enough to give you a decent chance in melee. This will also lower his reflex save to reasonable levels, so hammer him there. At that point, if you can keep him from fleeing, it'll be a really hard fight, but with proper preparation you should be able to win. Be sure to put all sorts of defensive spells on everyone beforehand to up your odds. His attack bonus will still probably be around 20, but with a large number of potions (say, blink, mirror image, shield of faith, barkskin, shield, cat's grace, and haste, all at high caster level), you should be able to stand up to his attacks decently. Make sure everyone has lots of of healing potions; get the cleric a wand of cure critical wounds. Your biggest problem will be keeping him grounded. Try web spells; with his reduced strength, each one should hold him for a while. Get freedom of movement effects on everyone. It'll be a struggle, but you should have a good chance. Unless the dragon is a young adult or older, that is.
Twilly 01-07-04, 07:06 AM	Ask for a lot of money. Then you go to the dragon and offer him the money (don't give all the money at once). Each year the dragon doesn't bother the king you will bring him some more money. I hope he agrees with you. It could help if all your partymembers would wear some expensive treasure (so the dragon can see it well). The red probably wants to keep the treasure in one peace. He might be more cautious when attacking you (he doesn't want to damage his treasure. If you go for the money-project, don't forget that in those years you're are going to grow more powerfull. When you can handle him stop the payments and go for the kill Hope it helps..
SmoothB 01-09-04, 12:59 AM	Elixer of Baleful Polymorphing It would be a wondrous item, and cost a lot of gold. There are formulas in the DMG to figure these things out. I bet you can even put in a higher price to make the save DC's higher.
Vanigo 01-09-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by SmoothB Elixer of Baleful Polymorphing It would be a wondrous item, and cost a lot of gold. There are formulas in the DMG to figure these things out. I bet you can even put in a higher price to make the save DC's higher. Yes, no, and maybe. Baleful polymorph is a fifth level spell, so you can't make a standard potion of it. You could, as you say, make a wonderous item that did much the same thing, but the price formulas are only hard-and-fast for potions, scrolls, wands, and staves. The actual price is up to the DM. Secondly, by the standard system, the save DC for any spell from a magic item is 10 + 1.5*spell level. (Well, staves are different, but that's neither here nor there.) Under the normal guidelines, the only way to increase the save DC is to heighten the spell. However, since there are no hard rules for wonderous items, you may be able to convince the DM to let you spend extra money for a higher DC. It's up to him/her.
Sussin 01-10-04, 04:24 PM	you say you can get ANYTHING? Get Poison. Lots of it in all forms and kinds! Coat a cow in posion and feed it to the thing if you have to! They have good saves but if they get a bad roll it can still work, and hey, its free right? Sadly i don't have my books with me, but i think its called soverieng glue? Get lots of that, smeer the ground with it, if you do manage to lower its strenth lead it onto that. Then kill it with range. And a dragons biggest weakness is that its arrogent and it is overly protective of treasure if it has any. For instance a red dragon may not use its firebreath on you if you are standing right in frot of 10 000 gold coins. Wouldn't want to melt those now would he? and do what ever it takes to keep it from flying
BenjCano 01-10-04, 05:33 PM	Take all the money that you would spend on dragon hunting equipment and use it to bribe an ancient silver dragon to fight the red for you.
FOOL 01-11-04, 05:06 PM	If possible, have one or more of you're party take the dragonslayer or the dragonstalker PrC. Other than that.... someones mentioned everything else I was going to say.
Teamshibi 01-11-04, 05:51 PM	Ho ho ho.... a dragon at level 6? I hope yer not thinking of going in alone. I'd say ya mobilize yer king's army. Take some knights ta die in yer stead while the archers take it down en masse. If yer stuck in it alone I can offer ye several options. Pro'lem is there aint be no easy way to kill a dragon at level 16, much less 6. If ye have a DM that aint too cruel, he may present ya with an alternative to death. Something akin to the solution ye might find in the great stories of Drizzt. Back when Shinti DeMaestro was level 7, we had to take down a dragon. Way we did it was we got beaten, one of us dying, and as we ran for our lives our barbarian had an idea and started punching into the outerwall of the cave. This cave wasnt sturdy by any means and it colapsed upon the dragon. It took our liege's army and our help to unearth the beast but in the end we killed him and i came away with the title "Dragonsbane." Ofcourse without the DM's help or a good bit of luck I cant help you much. I agree with another poster earlier in that a trap may be yer best option. You could wait till he goes out to feed, go into his lair, and plant some delayed blasts of some kind (fireballs most likely) all over the place. If you do this make sure not to worry about hording loot until you know the beast is dead, lest the sly bastard comes back and finds ye mesmerised by his gold. A dragon is one of the most inteligent foes I've ever fought. They are beautiful, cunning, speedy, smart, powerful, and magically gifted and nothing I'd think a level 6 party could take with any ease. Good luck to ye and I prey your backsides aint be singed off in your coming encounter.
Vanigo 01-12-04, 12:28 AM	Originally posted by Teamshibi Ho ho ho.... a dragon at level 6? I hope yer not thinking of going in alone. I'd say ya mobilize yer king's army. Take some knights ta die in yer stead while the archers take it down en masse. If yer stuck in it alone I can offer ye several options. Pro'lem is there aint be no easy way to kill a dragon at level 16, much less 6. If ye have a DM that aint too cruel, he may present ya with an alternative to death. Something akin to the solution ye might find in the great stories of Drizzt. Back when Shinti DeMaestro was level 7, we had to take down a dragon. Way we did it was we got beaten, one of us dying, and as we ran for our lives our barbarian had an idea and started punching into the outerwall of the cave. This cave wasnt sturdy by any means and it colapsed upon the dragon. It took our liege's army and our help to unearth the beast but in the end we killed him and i came away with the title "Dragonsbane." Ofcourse without the DM's help or a good bit of luck I cant help you much. I agree with another poster earlier in that a trap may be yer best option. You could wait till he goes out to feed, go into his lair, and plant some delayed blasts of some kind (fireballs most likely) all over the place. If you do this make sure not to worry about hording loot until you know the beast is dead, lest the sly bastard comes back and finds ye mesmerised by his gold. A dragon is one of the most inteligent foes I've ever fought. They are beautiful, cunning, speedy, smart, powerful, and magically gifted and nothing I'd think a level 6 party could take with any ease. Good luck to ye and I prey your backsides aint be singed off in your coming encounter. All of this is very true, if you're talking about an adult dragon. Fortunately for the party in question, younger dragons are weaker. Much weaker. If the dragon this party is going up against is young or younger, they have a decent chance. Well, they have a decent chance if they prepare properly. They might be able to prevail against a juvenile. Any older and they're toast.
Teamshibi 01-12-04, 09:07 PM	Bump, This thread intrests me.
Asmodeous 01-12-04, 11:15 PM	well, may not be too relevant, then again, the base tactics worked, so here it is. at our last gaming session, our party had to fight two dragons, a green and a red. the red was adult, the green one size bigger i think. Yeah, we are a high level party. Anyway, my cleric has some contact with dragons, worshiper of a home bake patheon, an air elemental god, arkadi. a couple of young silver dragons hang around the temple which my cleric is high whirlwind (high priest). so i asked the silver about this alliance between a red and a green and learnt about the deep hatred between red and silvers. basically, silver would join us in the fight, eager to bring down a larger red than itself with our help and get its claws on its fair share of the two dragons loot. so he loaded the party wizard on on the silvers back hoping to tangle with the red and the wizards polar rays should even the fight to our favor. we hoped the red would head for the silver and the green for us. silly us, never second guess a good dm. Both dragons headed for the silver. i ended up dimensioning door/fly spell to the silver for mass heal spells and blasted all four of them with chain lightnings (silver immune, wizard major lightning resist ring) we finally bought the red down, so the green swooped our ground bourned party, hoping for a quick kill and ran into our flying fighter wizard who critted it with his only attack at it as it tried to take him but only did him 104 points of damage (a scratch!). hurt badly the green was forced to flee eventually teleporting away when we chased it on the back of the silver. protection from energy spells is a good idea. i doubt that you party cleric would have enough 3rd level spells to cover the entire party at 6th level. The dragon will fight from the air unless it sees an advantage to closing to melee. if your party is all castors for example. So, revise long and medium range spells, avoid fire damage and arm your fighters with bows. if you can hide your fighters and hope to lull the dragon into landing for melee but it can easily fly again if it looses that fight. Dragons are very smart and if this isnt a very tough fight for you, your dm isnt playing the dragon correctly. Or, find a silver dragon, offer it the red dragons horde while you take the kinga payment. Very likely that your party will experience casualties in this one.
Teamshibi 01-13-04, 06:18 PM	What about containing the dragon? A few prismatic walls thrown up around it, then you can keep it out of the kings hair and still alive. Sure you miss out on the treasure but you'll get it out of your liege lords' hair and he'll probably still pay you... Best of all you could start a zoo around him! lol, just a thought.
kami 01-13-04, 06:33 PM	Originally posted by Teamshibi What about containing the dragon? A few prismatic walls thrown up around it, then you can keep it out of the kings hair and still alive. Sure you miss out on the treasure but you'll get it out of your liege lords' hair and he'll probably still pay you... Best of all you could start a zoo around him! lol, just a thought. A Prismatic Wall has duration 10 min/level. Permanent Prismatic Walls cost 4000 XP each. You'll need 5 of those and at least casterlevel 16th. It also takes two turns to bring one wall up (permanent), and if you're able to cast it there's a slight chance the dragon knows Cone of Cold, Gust of Wind, Disintegrate, Passwall, Magic Missile, Daylight and Dispel Magic. That, or he will fly through it hoping for SR to kick in. Or, intelligent as he is, he knows either Dimension Door or another teleport spell.
Teamshibi 01-13-04, 07:34 PM	I was really just trying to find an excuse to post again and keep this thread working ^_^ Bumps are fun.
Akbar 01-14-04, 09:58 AM	If you have a rogue that can sneak it in, Dust of Sneezing and Choking is the best way to go. No matter if he makes his FORT save, you get 5d4 rounds to beat on the dragon where he can do nothing but choke. Repeat as needed. If he fails the save you get CON damage too.:b: :b:
Raven Dark 01-14-04, 11:44 AM	Dust of Choking and Sneezing in easy to throw bags, Empowered Maximzied Ray of Enfeeblement scrolls, and Ray of Exhaustion scrolls can all be a huge benefit to your party. The dust's effects are immedietly obvious while the ray spells are likely to work really well at taking the bite out of the dragon (so to speak).