Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aki Warren 04-26-05, 08:01 PM	My party is about 9-10th level in power. I really want to play a dragon pc as I just got the dragon book (I will not ATTEMPT to spell it). The problem is, my dm thinks I overpower everything. I am conerced that a dragon would be overpowered. Anyone have any thoughts on how to make my DM see that a dragon isn't overpowered? Or are they actually so?
Encard 04-26-05, 08:18 PM	You'd have to play a wyrmling (or very young, depending on the type; some dragons are too high ECL for you to use at all) dragon if you wanted to fit with that level. You'd have a few nice things, but honestly, I think you'd be much closer to underpowered than to overpowered. If you want convince your DM of this, just compare the dragon to a normal character. When layed out point-by-point, I doubt he'll find small or tiny size, low HP, low attack bonus, low attack damage, low breath weapon damage, a few decent to unimpressive special abilities, a nice fly speed, and inability to wear/use a lot of equipment to be all that impressive.
fallabel 04-26-05, 08:33 PM	Yeah, you'd be fine in the power department. However, there'd be major problems with a few things: -Backstory. Why is the party adventuring with a dragon? Why would a regal, omnipotent dragon ever want to frolic around with a group of wimpy humans? -Party interaction. Your character would have to be very arrogant towards the rest of the party. Maybe this isn't a problem for you guys, but you'd have to be comfortable making all the decisions. -Immaturity. Dragons mentally mature much more slowly than humans do. So, even a 30 year old dragon will behave in a very juvenile manner. -Growing up. Your character will soon be too old to fight with the party. Obviously the dragon is still very capable of fighting, but he'd soon be too powerful for the group. He'd also have no reason to associate with them.
JabberWocky 04-26-05, 08:43 PM	Dragons are tough. You may come out thinking you're too weak in comparison to the rest of the party, mechanic-wise, and they're very hard to integrate story-wise. Given that you'll literally be playing a baby at this point, everyone will be better than you. Fighters will fight better than you, wizards will cast better than you, and rogues will sneak better than you. In essence, you're basically saying "I don't mind being on the low end if I get this great roleplaying opportunity." ...Which you should be doing anyway, dragon or no. That's my opinion, at least. Dragons aren't overpowered. They're balanced at best, and a half step behind the party at worst. Don't expect to be lord of all you survey just because you have "Dragon" in your species name and type.
Aki Warren 04-26-05, 09:01 PM	I don't want to be overpowered. The problem mainly is that I have 11 years expeirence, one person has 2 years, and the other have a month. So I come off as overpowered cause I know what I'm doing. Also, we are working for 3 epic level characters in the campigian. I believe treasure or them threatening me is reason enough. The Party will continue to level. And yeah, I'm in love with Dragons. They are what got me into this game. I'd play one if at level 20 all I could do was fly and shoot my breath weapon. Also, where are the +stats for a dragon?
Derren S. 04-27-05, 02:11 AM	1. Dragon PCs are underpowered compared to normal PCs because of their LA. 2. Backstory is no problem. Some dragon species often follow humans. 3. Dragons are fully grown (mentally) when they hatch. So that is no problem. My suggestion is to build a ECL 9 dragon and a ECL 9 fighter and wizard and compare their stats against each other and show your comparisation to the DM.
Morwen 04-27-05, 05:05 AM	Also, where are the +stats for a dragon? That depends on what Dragon you use. Take the Monster Manual, figure out which Dragon type you want, and subtract 10 from each even ability score and 11 from each odd ability score to determine the ability modifiers. For instance, a Wyrmling Copper Dragon has 11 STR, 10 DEX, 13 CON, 12 INT, 13 WIS and 12 CHA. Subtracting 10 from the even ones and 11 from the odd ones bring us to: +0 Str, +0 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha. Remember that Dragons tend to have a large LA and numerous Hit Dice, so as a Wyrmling Copper Dragon you will only get 3 class levels if you make a 10th level character.
MJ the Prophet 04-27-05, 08:22 AM	Well, you've got the Draconomicon, but I'll sum up here. I suggest you read in detail the "Dragons as Player Characters" starting on pg. 141. Your possible dragon choices, and I'm going to assume your party is good: Wyrmling or Very Young Brass (5-6 years old, 6-7 HD, LA +3) Wyrmling Bronze (0 years old, 6 HD, LA +4) Wyrmling Copper (3-5 years old, 7 HD, LA +2 or +3) (If your DM is nice) Wyrmling Silver (0 yrs old, 7 HD, +4 LA) The evil dragons give a few more options, but I'm going to guess that you're going metallic. Golds start at ECL 12, so you'd be pushing it with the ECL 11 Silver. Or, you could start lower on the dragon totem pole for Brass or Copper and take some character levels. Basically, reading the "Advancement and Aging" section, you would start at a given age, and improve in racial HD slowly as you continue. For purposes of going up a level, you need experience like a character of your ECL, so you'll have to keep track of it. Every time you age a few years and go up another step on the table (on page 143), you must take a level of "dragon" in addition to the character levels you've been gaining. This gets you (usually) 1 d12 HD, 1 point of NA, and 1 point of BAB. Every two "dragon" levels you take improves your saves by 1, as well as the DC of your special abilities. Watch those tables closely for the "dragon" levels where you just have to increase your LA. As the Draconomicon explains, this helps smooth the transition between age categories. Check your Monster Manual (as the above post said) for your ability score adjustments. Every age category gets you better ability scores, and as the Draconomicon states, you get skill points retroactively for your Intelligence boosts (+1 skill point per dragon HD for every +2 Int). For going epic and becoming an even older dragon, your DM will have to extend the tables, but if you honestly have a campaign that lasts over 22 years of game time, much less 45, I'll be very impressed and I'd like to continue helping.
Aki Warren 04-27-05, 09:14 AM	If you assume our party is good, you assume wrong :D My last two characters were the only good people. With their deaths (the paladin was in love with one) he has become a blackguard obsessed with the destruction of the world. But yes, I see your point...hmmm... Oh, I'm not allowed to look at the monster manual. Not by my DM, I just make it a personal rule that unless I am a DM I will not look at the monster manual. I hate it when someone says "That zombie has about 16 hp and it sucks at reflex saves!". Makes me want to smack them, and I won't be that player. Class levels plus the dragon levels do confuse me just a tad. I would rather just gain levels as a dragon, and not any class whatsoever. If I must, I'll do either fighter or monk, but being a dragon would be much cooler, IMO. Maybe there is some sort of magical rule that with experience I can grow faster? I know in Kyrnn dragons can make a totem to make them much stronger.
fallabel 04-27-05, 09:15 AM	If you don't want to look at the MM, then at least check out the sample dragons in Draconomicon. Those are made with fairly average stats for their age categories. Or, just go to the SRD, and look up dragons. That way you can avoid inadvertantly looking at things that you didn't want to see.
Aki Warren 04-27-05, 09:35 AM	Thanks for the idea. Now it's a manner of picking a dragon to use...hmmm...
Gilean 04-27-05, 12:38 PM	The metallic ones are stronger. But white ones make best scouts with good skill points, stealth and radar-skills.
DemonsOfRazgriz 04-27-05, 02:59 PM	Another one is you could always work out a deal with the DM. I wanted to play a young Adult Gold Dragon, my dm said yes if most of my stats were changed, it had polymorph. when it wasnt a dragon my stats were halved and my AC was practically non-existent, and while in dragon form, I had to roll a percentile for my breath weapon it may not have seem fair but, I had fun, and the other players loved my pc. You can always try for this if the dm allows you to play a dragon, but says your wyrmling is to weak, or doesnt want you to play a wyrmling but a dragon that is very young and up.
fallabel 04-27-05, 04:53 PM	Yeah, things like that are very useful. When I was DMing a game, one of the players wanted a dragon familiar, but didn't have all the prereqs. I allowed it, but she agreed to not use most of its combat abilities.
weasel fierce 04-28-05, 01:57 PM	The DM has to built virtually every adventure around your character, since it is so unusual and difficult to fit into most typical adventure areas. Unless your DM is very skilled, I think there's a good chance of imbalancing the game, by making the other characters left behind, or second role to the dragon.
Aki Warren 04-28-05, 02:43 PM	I am confused as to how you see it that way. I am not a adult dragon, I'm about the size of a gnome or dwarf. A human possibly later on, but that's it. Yes I can fly, but what high level player can't? Heck, I could be a tiefling and with one feat fly. Half Dragon too. It's not that hard. In what way will I steal the show?
DarkWarriorKarg 04-28-05, 04:05 PM	I am confused as to how you see it that way. I am not a adult dragon, I'm about the size of a gnome or dwarf. A human possibly later on, but that's it. Yes I can fly, but what high level player can't? Heck, I could be a tiefling and with one feat fly. Half Dragon too. It's not that hard. In what way will I steal the show? I agree... you're basically playing a large bat. :D You might also want to think of the pseudodragon... I had a concept once of a "Familliar for Hire"... a nasty-minded pseudodragon with Rogue & assassin levels who'd pose as a wizard's familiar... Uses a ring of invisibility & an amulet of non-detection... :D
weasel fierce 04-29-05, 01:24 AM	well, if its a baby dragon, then the size wont be an issue. However, even a baby dragon may change a lot of things, unless your DM is prepared. Local peasants might not be coming to you for help with the dragon eating their cattle ;) Just saying that it can be tricky.
Vaelan 04-29-05, 03:27 AM	If you want to play a dragon, I would suggest coming up with your own numbers for LA. A wyrmling dragon is by no means equivalent to a level 12 character. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I think a dragon could be balanced without a level adjustment. They don't get the qualities that make dragons truly formidable. Most PC dragons will never pass Large size, their spellcasting and SR are trivial, and they never really achieve the obscene natural armor bonus that we normally associate with dragons. Their only real strength lies in their fly speed and their full attack. This may sound bad, but these two strengths do not compliment each other, which is a significant disadvantage. Their fly speed is impressive, but their maneuverability is poor, which is a huge disadvantage. It takes a dragon four rounds to turn around in the air. Further, they need a great deal of space to ascend any significant distance. Also, if they can't fly 100 feet, they don't get to fly at all. Their full attack could definitely be problematic. However, a dragon has weaknesses that could compensate for this strength. They are unable to use most magic items, their elemental weakness can be deadly, and they have no real way to overcome damage reduction. Overall, a dragon's performance in an array of combat situations would vary more wildly than a PC class's would. They could make a number of encounters pretty much trivial, but there are many common situations in which a dragon would be somewhere between sub-par and worthless. It seems to me that a decent balance could be worked out, with careful planning.
Carn Vandoril 04-29-05, 07:21 AM	well, if its a baby dragon, then the size wont be an issue. However, even a baby dragon may change a lot of things, unless your DM is prepared. Local peasants might not be coming to you for help with the dragon eating their cattle ;) Just saying that it can be tricky. I agree, maybe your parent gave a ring of polymorph (once a day)? (no hp restoring)
fallabel 04-29-05, 07:24 AM	Some dragons can polymorph 3/day (no hp restore) right from the time that they're a wyrmling. Pick one of those.
Carn Vandoril 04-29-05, 07:29 AM	Wow missed that one! oeps. :ayyyy!:
Aki Warren 04-29-05, 11:27 AM	Yeah, I picked a Copper Dragon. An Evil one (My DM is one of those guys that doesn't believe in a pre-determined alignment being written in stone). The polymorph is useful. My DM has also agreed to lower the LA. I told him if he didn't want me playing a dragon I'd play a bard. He immediatly let me play a dragon :D I plan on using my breath weapon and full attack. Also make use of some skills and at higher levels my sorceror spells. Our party relies on melee a lot with very little casting, so I'll take spells that aid in that. I won't be the best, my bard would have been better, but I'll love him all the same
Derren S. 04-29-05, 02:06 PM	Copper dragons can't polymorph....
DemonsOfRazgriz 04-29-05, 05:29 PM	Copper dragons can't polymorph.... Damm. Then I have a book with a bunch of mis-prints every single breed of true dragons in my MM1 says they all have polymorph. No Joke. Which dragons have polymorph or alternate form?
MJ the Prophet 04-29-05, 09:26 PM	Well, in terms of alternate form, not many dragons actually have or get it. As in, gold and silver. They get it as wyrmlings, every other dragon is out of luck. At least, so it is in 3.5. I don't have anything older at hand right now. Polymorph? Well, all dragons get a sorcerer casting level. As soon as that number says 9th, they can polymorph, like any sorcerer who takes the spell.
Derren S. 04-30-05, 03:24 AM	Which dragons have polymorph or alternate form? Gold and Silver at wyrmling age, Bronze at young age. Song dragons also get it from the beginning (and bard would fit them perfectly)
MJ the Prophet 04-30-05, 10:04 AM	Oops, I missed bronze entirely. Yeah, they get it at young. And they're darn cool dragons, too.
Gilean 05-01-05, 09:15 AM	Vaelan, take a good look at the HD dragons get. They should have reduced LA (form the current one) or much more HD.
obrysii 05-01-05, 10:19 AM	If you want raw power, a Pyroclastic Wyrmling would be nice. It's got a Line of Disinigration breath weapon...nice mobility, and immunities to sonic and fire. Just pump your con as much as possible.
Arkidisey 05-28-05, 08:46 PM	where are the +stats for a dragon? Draconomicon.
Arkidisey 05-28-05, 08:50 PM	[QUOTE=Gilean]The metallic ones are stronger. hardley at all. it always depends on WHO they are, it depends on how a DM created it. metalics aren't just born better.
Arkidisey 05-28-05, 08:55 PM	Yeah, I picked a Copper Dragon. An Evil one (My DM is one of those guys that doesn't believe in a pre-determined alignment being written in stone). The polymorph is useful. My DM has also agreed to lower the LA. I told him if he didn't want me playing a dragon I'd play a bard. He immediatly let me play a dragon :D I plan on using my breath weapon and full attack. Also make use of some skills and at higher levels my sorceror spells. Our party relies on melee a lot with very little casting, so I'll take spells that aid in that. I won't be the best, my bard would have been better, but I'll love him all the same well, the correct term would be corrupted copper dragon :D sorry, just had to make sure you knew that :)
Disme 05-28-05, 11:03 PM	Also, the dragon magazine has a nice 20 lvl progression for dragons. 1-20 all balanced nicely. You can get the pdf for the good cheaply, bout $9. I got it an im liken it. Don't know about the bad tho.
snowlynx 05-29-05, 09:04 AM	Dragons.....despite their seeming weaknesses, they can be made as powerful as a PC of the same ECL. The easiest way to do this is to pick a dragon that has a lower ECL then the group and give it some class levels; keep in mind your dragon may turn out to qualify for prestige classes too merely based on hit die levels. A dragon PC who gains armor proficiency through class can wear armor, which goes a long way toward making them tougher. The metallic dragons' high int, wis, and cha mean that they can often do some really nice things with some of the class abilities or feats that improve combat based on one of these (the only one I can think of right now is the swashbucker's insightful strike, but I also remember a feat that uses turn undead attempts and transfers them into some sort of smite).
Talinna 05-29-05, 03:44 PM	Coppers can't poloymorph? Where is this stated?
Derren S. 05-29-05, 03:57 PM	Coppers can't poloymorph? Where is this stated?In the MM where they don't have an alternate form SQ. From the MM dragons only golds, silvers and bronzes have alternate form. Coppers can of course still polymorph by casting the spell.
Talinna 05-29-05, 04:18 PM	Ok... don't know why but for some reason I was thinking that all dragons could morph by the age of young adult....(this is a sad thing for I own a copy of the Drac and have spent much time develing in it! .... currently playing a half-dragon(brass) cleric) I'm glad that she got her dragon though.... I've been trying to talk the people I play with into letting me play a dragon cohort or mount for somebody but we never make it to that high of a lvl. That and everyone plays all of these exotic races anyhow (like right now my halfdragon is traveling with a tefling, drow and yhantee <spell check on all of those!> )
Wilds 05-29-05, 05:27 PM	i would use the dragon classes from dragon magazine, they are built decently enough and are designed to be of the same ecl as other characters at that level. i tryed to make a fang dragon character class but it is still being looked at. teh classes from the dragon magazine are decent enough though