Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dreconeo 08-10-06, 10:52 AM	If someone has any advice, or could point me in the proper direction, I`m looking to create a Dragon pc for a campaign my DM is running but although i have the Draconomicon as reference, any other helpful tidbits, sugestions, and/or example(s) of a dragon character sheet would be extremly helpfull.
metamind 08-10-06, 10:54 AM	Your DM is letting you play a dragon?
archerpwr 08-10-06, 11:28 AM	wouldnt you get hungry and just roast and eat the other party members? and how are you going to battle and level? jus use racial hit dice and continue as a dragon monster? Doesnt sound party friendly to me. but if your DM is actually allowing it jus make it on a standard character sheet. treat the dragon char sheet much like the char sheet of an animal companion.
Dreconeo 08-10-06, 12:04 PM	Under the condition i can suply the neccesary character information, character background, and beleivable reason to be interested in his quest (i.e like you said, not turn around and eat the other party members), yes my DM is alowing me a dragon character, and or dragonish character. Where can i find the information for doing a char sheet of an animal companion?
archerpwr 08-10-06, 12:19 PM	i just always used another regular char sheet for animal companions because they tend to have special abilities but no class special abilitys you have plenty of room on a reg char sheet. and using a half dragon template would be a lot easier (its in MM 1) only has like a +3 LA and no racial HD plus you get hands! having a dragon that was ECL close to an early party (im assuming your not starting above 10) means you have to have a pretty young dragon and be stuck with the young age penalties (low natural armor, low con, low str, vulnerabilitys to magic etc.) and generally would not be worth it. if you dont like the template and insist on playing a dragon the story is as follows: Some random BBEG came into ur parents lair to take it for himself (BBEG is like an ECL 60 lich or something suitably high). BBEG sees 2 dragons. Parent dragons usher you out a secret escape tunnel small enough for only you. BBEG uses finger of death or some other suitable necromancy spell to kill your parents. then he uses animate dead on them and has them replace half his zombie horde as his personal body gaurds. you got out of sight through the tunnel just as he started to animate your parents and run out into the wilderness. two years late and 200 miles away a paladin or druid (something good or into nature) finds you caught in a bear trap with a chaotic evil barbarian about to kill you for your scales. said hero rushes to your aid and pwns LBEG and frees you. you travel with said good guy and explain your plight and become close friends. other party members join you at various places. Jus an idea off the top of my head. Try to use it as a spring board to create your backstory because i probably left a few plot holes.
Kyle_the_wizard 08-10-06, 12:23 PM	Be a half dragon or somethin. And if your going to advance advance in sorcer so be a juvenile/young adult.
Derren S. 08-10-06, 12:41 PM	At www.paizo.com you can buy the back issue of the Dragon magazin 320 (only as PDF) and 332. Issue 320 contains a level by level progression for metallic dragons and 332 the same for chromatic dragons. If you can't get those issues then you have to first decide which dragon at which age category you want/can play. Best post which dragon you want to play and at what level the group starts, then we can help you better. A word of advise, if you are new to D&D stick to normal characters at first untill you know the game better.l
Dreconeo 08-10-06, 01:02 PM	Thx, great background story. Ill definetly be using it! I`m thinking of going with a Copper or Bronze dragon, possibly wyrmling or very young as our group lvls will start at about 5 for our newer players. i vaguely understand that there are young age penelties involved with a young dragon, not only do except such penalties i welcome them to better balance out what would otherwise be an overpowering character that would unbalence the game. My goal is to play as a dragon, not a powerhouse character.
Derren S. 08-10-06, 01:40 PM	Don't worry, dragons are not very powerfull, but rather weak. But lvl 5 is too low to even play a wyrmling so you or your DM has to downgrade wyrmlings considerably to make them playable by lvl 5. The best bet is to get the Dragon issue 320 (only $5 as pdf) which has stats to play dragons from lvl 1.
Dreconeo 08-10-06, 01:52 PM	The issue of Dragon will prove most helpful and i thank you gratiously.
TarlSS 08-10-06, 03:26 PM	Dragons as presented in Dragon Magazine are a teeny bit on the weakside as far as classes go, but they're dragons. They're not CODzilla, but they're better than say..fighters.
Thanqol 08-10-06, 08:48 PM	Dragons from the Draconomicon definately seem balanced. Your breath weapon is more a utility-blast for burning down doors/objects than a real combat ability, though. Multiattack and Improved Multiattack, keep taking Dragon HD, and flight feats. Hover is exellent.
Tylerhanlon 08-11-06, 05:57 PM	Play as a half dragon. So look in the monster manual.
Archmage Atrus 08-11-06, 06:22 PM	Let me tell you this, honestly. I let one of players play a dragon once. I even lowered the Level Adjustment as presented in the book, because it seemed too high. He retired the character in two sessions. He was nowhere near as powerful as the other PCs. And this wasn't a drow "boohoo I'm two levels behind mwah!" whine. No, this was a "God, my hit points suck, my hit die suck, my attacks suck, my AC sucks, my spells suck." About the only thing that he didn't complain about were his skills. I knew it was going to happen. But he'd been wanting to play a dragon a while now, so I let him. Dragons are best played with other dragons, where everyone is on (more or less equal) footing. (Those who say "It's ok, you have breath weapon," think about this a moment. The DC of your breath weapon is going to be low. Your enemies will make the save over 75% of the time. Your damage will also be low. So even if they fail their saves, they'll barely be hurt. It might look and sound impressive, but in practice, it's a bit of a let down.)
Iry 08-11-06, 07:58 PM	The basic way to play a Dragon and not be underpowered is to play by CR. Basically, take the CR of the Dragon and give it +2. (Because Dragons were intentionally under CR'ed to make them more frightening opponents) That is the level of dragon that is appropriate for contributing evenly to a party. For example, a CR 10 dragon is an appropriate party member for a group of three other level 12 adventurers, rounding the number to 4 total players. This is the only way to resonably play a Dragon. Dragon Hit Dice are nice enough, but Dragon Class abilities are truly hideous compared to the class abilities of any other class in the game. See the rules in Draconomicon for giving dragons actual PC Classes and how they integrate with Dragon Hit Die. Even then, playing a very young dragon probably won't warrant the CR+2 Clause until they reach Huge size.
Nived 08-11-06, 09:07 PM	Actually HP with the Dragon Monster Levels from Dragon isn't that bad (mind you I only have the chromatic issue) 20 levels, 13-15 or so HD(depending on the species).... d12 HD... with massive Con bonuses... it should equal out with a ranger or monk really. Less feats sure but you'll be able to use feats out of the Draconomicon.... the article even suggests taking PrCs for dragons out of the draconomicon, breaking the usual no multiclassing monster level rules. And even though Copper is my favorite dragon, I gotta say Silver looks super sweet with its Alternate Form at 2nd level ability.
Quintessence 08-12-06, 01:47 AM	I've been playing a gold dragon (from dragon magazine 320) for a few years now and have just recently reached 12th level. I'll share what information I've learned by playing one; hopefully you'll find something useful in there. All in all dragons have an interesting set of abilities but it's hardly a combat monster. I've found that when teamed up with a group of humanoid PCs it's best to think of a dragon as filling the role of a dual-wielding ranger. Your combat abilities will most likely never surpass a straight classed fighter but you make up for it with a few nifty class features. Eventually the dragon takes on the role of the party's advanced scout, watchman and secondary fighter; like a ranger usually would. The dragon's skill list is already very good. The most important thing to max out is your Use Magic Device skill. With it you can keep a stock of low level spells (from any spellcasting class) on scrolls to use whenever you want without having to hassle your fellow party members to keep buffing you. Keep a good roster of useful spells that bolster your natural abilities close at hand. Since they're class skills, max out your Listen, Search and Spot skills to take full advantage of your superior senses. All Knowledges are class skills for you, so take advantage of your many skill points and become a sage of sorts in your chosen field(s). I keep my Knowledge (Arcana) maxed out to be the party's dragon expert as well as to identify magic items (DC 30). Eventually you'll get a superior land and fly speeds and will quickly and easily be able to reach your opponents which is good. The thing to remember though is that by that time you'll have multiple attacks and that's where your strength will be so don't waste time moving around too much when you'd be better off performing full attacks to get the best millage out of all your natural weapons. Of course, there is the humiliating option of being ridden by a Small creature like a gnome or halfling; if they have the Mounted Combat feat they can ward off blows against you. This isn't a bad idea if you've got a amenable companion. Just brush up on the particulars of characters as mounts by checking out Skip Williams' Rules of the game articles: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a I think you'll find that your breath weapons are really just for show; they're pretty useless most of the time since the damage is fairly negligible. For instance, the 1d10 fire damage you'll be dealing between 6th and 8th levels is a joke. An average roll is 5.5 damage with a successful save (which at that level is often easy for most opponents) only dealing 2.75 damage on average to each opponent. The only time that it is advisable is when you are facing many opponents in a tight clump. In that case just count how many natural attacks you could do and compare the overall damage of each option. For instance, if you can perform a full attack with your three natural weapons (bite/claw/claw) and assuming you'll hit with all three then you'll be dealing (assuming a 16 Str) on average 16.5 damage during the round (1d8+3/1d6+1/1d6+1). To do similar damage with your 30 ft. cone of fire however, you'd have to have 6 or more targets all clumped together. Even then though it's usually preferable to attack a single target and kill it faster than to slowly damage a large group of individuals. Usually the only times that it's preferable to use your breath weapon are when you're limited to a single attack (during a surprise round or when your opponents are out of reach for a full attack) or when you're flying overhead and your opponent(s) have no ranged attacks (like most stupid monsters with natural weapons). Your weakening gas breath weapon is just not really viable at this low level though. By only dealing a single point of Str damage to several most likely low level creatures you're essentially having no appreciable effect on their combat ability and not really hurting them. It would take five or six consecutive breaths and many failed saves to even start affecting your opponents Strength significantly. Just don't bother. The alternate form ability of the gold, silver and bronze dragons is great; if you choose to play one of those you'd become a great infiltrator. The best part of your special ability is, that unlike a druid, you aren't limited to small or medium sized animals, just anything smaller than medium. That means that, unlike a lower level druid, you can turn into fine sized animals right away. Turning into a field mouse or sparrow is almost like becoming invisible and is, in my opinion the best part of the alternate form ability. A field mouse can sneak in anywhere, including an enemy's backpack and be virtually undetectable. Also, don't forget that some animal forms have natural bonuses to some skills that you can take full advantage of, like eagles and owls for spotting when you're keeping watch. Dragons never have few feats since feats are granted by Hit Dice, which for a hatchling is always lagging behind other PCs. As a gold dragon, you'd get one feat at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 9th and another at 13th; that's it. To get a much needed extra feat, I took a flaw from the Unearthed Arcana book. I chose Shaky since dragons rarely ever use missile weapons. I've taken the Combat Expertise and Improved Trip feat and haven't regretted it. Don't ignore the necessity of getting Multiattack and Improved Multiatttack ASAP to make your secondary attacks as viable as your primary. Having multiple natural weapons is only useful if they all hit. With a high strength, the +4 to opposed Strength checks for the Improved Trip feat and a natural 4 legged defense against being counter-tripped, dragons make great trip-monkeys. Since your BAB will lag behind other fighters a bit, that -4 AC penalty for your prone opponent helps to keep you competitive. With my multiple natural attacks, I can attempt trip attacks with each one, downing my opponent and then follow up with free attack at a significantly lower AC target. My target also suffers a -4 to hit me in return for lying prone. If he ever tries to get up or crawl away I get a free attack of opportunity to hit him again. I usually describe the trip as sweeping an opponent's legs out from under him with a tail sweep and then pouncing on him with tooth and claw. It's fun. For the real hidden power of tripping though you have to try fighting opponents in the air. Check out Skip Williams' article on aerial combat: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a By tripping flying opponents in the air you cause them to stall and fall towards the earth on their turn. With this trick I managed to deal 12d6 falling damage to a medium sized green dragon who charged me in the air. For all this fun though, dragons do have their problems; some of which can be easily resolved while others are more tricky. First off, get yourself a ring of feather falling. It's cheap and it'll ensure that if you ever got knocked below 0 hit points or somehow immobilized or tangled while in the air that you won't fall to your death automatically. This is key if you want to try the aerial tripping trick since, without four feet on the ground, you're just as vulnerable to a counter-trip as your opponent is to yours. Another big issue is acquiring magic items and equipment. Improving your natural attacks with items is a pricey endeavour as compared to a fighter who simply has to invest in one magic weapon. Look seriously into getting something akin to an Amulet of Mighty Fists from the DMG to improve all your natural attacks at once but check out Skip Williams' guidelines for creating a slightly cheaper but properly slotted version in his Rules of the Game article on creating magic items: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050111a Also, improving your strength via magic belts is always good for dealing more damage, but also for winning opposed strength checks if attempting to trip like I do. Very Important. Also, as you mentioned, armor is a good if somewhat silly looking idea. Since you don't have any armor proficiencies you'll suffer armor check penalties to all your attacks. The way around this is to simply select armors that have no armor check penalties. So get the best you can afford. Leather at first is dirt cheap, followed by masterwork studded leather and finally a mithral shirt if you can get it. Also, check out the dastana in the Arms and Equipment Guide if you have it. It can offer an extra +1 AC without incurring an armor check penalty and can be worn over a chain shirt. Don't bother enchanting your armor overmuch though since you'll eventually grow out of it and have to replace it anyways. For magic items, I myself at eight level currently have an amulet of natural armor +2, a ring of feather falling, armbands of Ogre Power +2, a pectoral gem of mighty fists +1 (counts as a shirt) and mithral chain shirt barding +1 and a wide selection of potions and scrolls. The only other big issue with playing a dragon is overcoming Damage Reduction. While fighting with natural weapons it becomes particularly tricky to get special material qualities and such. A mighty fists item changes all your natural attacks into magic but everything else is a bit trickier. One solution I've found is to wear a special material tail blade for special opponents (mine is cold iron). The tail blade can be found described in the Savage Species book and is an exotic weapon. I usually wield mine untrained suffering the -4 to hit but compensate for the penalty by first using my other natural attacks to trip opponents. Damage Reduction doesn't affect special combat manoeuvres like trip or bull rush so it's a good alternative to trying to overcome the DR with straight damaging attacks. I also keep potions of silvered weapons (Book of Exalted Deeds) for converting my natural attacks into silvered ones and oil of bless weapon for making them holy in reserve. Oh and don't forget that you have an elemental subtype. That means that clerics with the the appropriate elemental domains can affect you with their special turning abilities. With it they can turn you away or even try to gain control of you and turn you against your allies. Check out which deities in your campaign grant either of the two domains that could affect you and then keep a keen eye open for any signs of activity from those churches in your adventure. The last thing you want is to have an evil fire priest show up and command you. Anyways, this is some of the advice I can offer with my experience in playing a gold dragon hatchling. I hope you find something useful in there somewhere. Let me know what you think. Good luck.
Nived 08-12-06, 02:10 PM	While a Gold's Strength sapping Breath Weapon may not be entirely useful when you're such a young dragon... it occurs to me that a Brass Dragon's "Sleep Breath" could be quite powerful. Having played Enchanters before Sleep and Deep Slumber are powerful spells that can take multiple opponents out of a fight with ease (on a high seas campaign my favorite tactic was casting it while opponents were trying to board the ship... splash). A Brass Dragon's Sleep breath is not limited by HD at all, and effects anyone who fails their save in an AoE. While the Gold's secondary breath weapon is weak (no pun intended), I see the Brass' being quite useful at all levels. By the same token a Copper's Slow Breath would be useful, particularly at higher levels where reducing enemy melee characters to only having one attack per round could be a lifesaver. The problem is that it's a fort based save and the characters most effected by it have good fort saves. And while these two 'lesser' dragons do suffer from being unable to use Alternate Form, they'll end up with more HD and higher base saves and BAB than the other dragons, and one more feat. Also Burrow (for Brass) and Spider Climb (for Copper) could be quite useful.
kelvinaw273 08-12-06, 05:52 PM	I used Savage Species to set up a Dragon PC for my ex-wife .... It worked very well, actually. I spent many hours building an experience progression table for the character, though .... SS has the guidelines on how to do this and many examples.