Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nimbus 05-08-06, 07:25 AM	I'd tell you what it is, but unfortunately I don't know myself. And that's why I need help. I currently playing a fourth level dragonborn paladin, taking the racial substitution levels from races of dragon. My first level feat was power attack. The difficulty I'm finding myself in is that I want to go into a certain prestige class later and want to do it as soon as possible. Unfortunately this requires overcoming certain...prerequisites.I have the sacred vow feat and will be taking the vow of obedience feat in two levels. I also have the ranks in the skills I need. My dragonborn ability is heart (breath weapon) and I'm currently paying for a hippogriff to be raised to be my mount next level. The problematic prequsite in question involves the slaying of a juvinile red dragon. And I want to do this at level seven so that I can take my first level of Vassal of Bahamut (from the Book of Exhaulted Cheese) at the earliest possible time. i.e. level eight. So how do you go about killing a CR 10 encounter, specifically, a juvinile red dragon, with a level seven character? I've already thought of a couple of things that might help: One use item of Shield of Law - Bonus to AC, saves, and prevents the dragon from making full attacks. Potion of Barskin +5 - For the bonus to AC Potion of Eagle's Splendour - Boost Divine Grace ability Potion of Bear's Endurance - Boost HP and Fort save Potion fo Bull's Strength - Boost to hit and damage Potion of Haste - Boost to hit, AC, and Speed Enchant weapon with Dragonbane Potion of Fire Resistence 30 Wand of CLW Anyone else have any suggestions on what I can do? Help will be much appreciated.
Kresalak 05-08-06, 07:52 AM	Do you have to kill it alone? Because I garuntee, you will not be able to take out a CR 10 creature, alone, at level 7. With a party it would still be difficult, although doable.
Nimbus 05-08-06, 09:49 AM	Yup, all alone. Damn these difficult prereqs. But that's the reason I need help. I really don't want to wait until I'm about thirteenth or fourteenth level before I go for it.
Throg 05-08-06, 09:51 AM	Yes, the vassel of bahamut has to take out that dragon alone. But there's nothing about letting your party buff you up before the battle at all, they just can't help. Dragon Bane - Weapon Enchant, +2d6 damage, weapon counts as +2 Enchant higher vs Dragons. So that +1 Dragon Bane Long sword does 1d8 + 2d6 +3 + Str in damage. At 7th level, you'd get to attack to do that damage. Arrow of Dragon Slaying! Weeee... Fort save or die..! :D Tactics! Tactics is the main key to taking out a much more powerful creature then yourself. Who says you have to fight it face to face, you just can't have help! A bow with the dragon bane enchantment works perfectly. Find a way to entrap it in a cave so it can't fly away, then find a way to peg it with arrows without it comming towards you.. a powerful casting of Magic Circle against Evil sounds perfect to me, where the Will DC is fairly tough... Or wait!! Mwahaha... Find a way for YOU to entrap it in a Magic Circle against Evil! It's a Medium creature I believe, so it'll fit in the radius.. then just peg it with arrows. And no, that won't be an evil act. That's a smart act by a Paladin who isn't going to charge stupidly into battle with a creature who'd rip out his guts in a few rounds... then bake him to a crisp. Or if you can't get him into a cave.. take Mounted Archery at level 6, then see if you can purchase a gryphon or pegasus. The fly speeds should be somewhat equal to a dragons, the dragon can't get off multiple attacks, you'd just have to figure out how to get your mount a resistance to fire so it won't get fried. It's so deliciously evil it's bound to be good.. :D
Cifer 05-08-06, 11:36 AM	But there's nothing about letting your party buff you up before the battle at all, they just can't help. "Letting your party buff you up before the battle" sounds like helping to me. Do you have a written code of conduct specifying whether you have to fight honorably? If it leaves out this point, dirty tricks are fair game.
BreakfastNinja 05-08-06, 11:55 AM	Take out a loan. You're lawful -- patrons, banks, charities, Bahamut... pay it off with the hoard, maybe with shared trove. You got me? :cool: Money can make the difference between you being able to solo it now, or at higher levels -- your paladin represents Law, your foe, and your foe, Chaos; your paladin represents the Might of Deities of Good and Virtue, your foe is a symbol of Evil and Depravity; even the 7th level vs CR 10 is archetypal of the underdog White Knight against the Proud and Overconfident, the greater devil, and even might be said to be the sum and substance of the difference between Red vs. Blue, however, dear Nimbus, remember that this time when you take up arms, you fight on the side of Capitalism! Down with Draconic Mercantilism (don't sit around on your assets -- fight!) May the Invisible Hand guide you. BN
Werebat troll paladin 05-08-06, 12:01 PM	The target's ac is 24, so make sure you have at least +12 going into the fight. I'm not sure on your build, so how many attacks per round do you have? The sword is going to be important. +1 Frosting is just about as good as bane and costs much less. However, if you find yourself having extra cash, I might take the bump and go to bane. If you still have cash, bane-frost. Another consideration would be wounding. Each 2 hits is going to drop his con-bonus to HP and essentially do 1damage / hd, which in this case is 16. You could look at that as being 8 HP per hit with the added bonus that he'll die after 19 strikes (assuming you survive that long). If you're into the arrows of slaying you're not going to want to bother initially. The save is 20 (or 23 for greater arrows), but this monster sports +14 fort. Maybe consider buying the wounding weapon and whacking away until you've hit 8 or so times and then try the arrows. All things to consider. On the note of your armor class, this particular dragon sports +24, so unless you can get your armor class in the 30's don't even bother. Find a way to be resistant to fire, because he'll be doing an average of 45 with it every 3.5 rounds, and that's if the DM's nice. His full attack will do much, much more damage. Come to think of it, you may want to avoid resistance to fire just to bait him into using it. Lastly, be ready to grapple. It would take longer for him to kill you, but it would rob you of your chance to win, as he's rocking a +29 to grapple, and I doubt you've got anything comparable (though I could be wrong). So maybe rock some frosting armor spikes. That's all I can think of right now.
Kresalak 05-08-06, 12:10 PM	There is one trick you could use. If you can get a custom, one time use item of that spell from Frostburn that deals 3d6 Dex damage with a touch attack, you can tear the dragon apart. His touch AC is 10; if you can get that item, you only need at most a 3 to hit him. Average Dex damage is 10.5, compared to his 10 Dex. He'll be unable to move, and you can take him out.
BreakfastNinja 05-08-06, 12:28 PM	Mechanically, though. Scout, spy, and Sun Tzu 'im. That means (off the top of my head) knowing terrain, the timing, taking the initiative, learning the weaknesses, the lair -- Strategery! (There was a thread about killing dragons. I cannot find it. But from that thread...) The spell compendium provides, "Ray of Clumsiness" for use against dragons. Draconomicon offers "Earthbind" and "Wingbind." One's second level. Mertoran Leaf (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#mertoranLeaf), for 1 Dex damage (which you could make up for with restoration, if your dex is even), for 1 hour gains you a +2 Alchemical Charisma bonus, and is neat. Your character may pick up Mertoran leaf as a quirk -- it's flavorful (ha! double entendre! :P ) Choose the battleground. A tribute of some art/gold with an attached note (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) from an anonymous admirer. Lie in wait. (Other uses of Explosives abound -- buy loads and loads of an Alchemist's Frost (like Alchemist's fire, only dealing cold damage... wire it... BOOM). Ray of Clumsiness decreases his Reflex save and his touch AC (if successful). Um, his touch AC is already 9, so... if you could get Touch attacks, that would save you some trouble. Wraithstrike is the canonical cheesewrought tactic. Any other Dex damage you could do (without saves? :P) would assist, and possibly even (if it stacks) win you the Big Match all by itself. These being somewhat hard to come by, after applying the RoC penalty (and hitting him with Wingbind or whatever, to keep flying from being a problem)... Or, maybe a Ray of Frost, applied with the "Fell weaken" metamagic from Libris Mortis. Orbs of Frost. Frost magic abundant! (taking advantage of his cold vulnerability here) Also -- a Pegasus, by the SRD (MM), is 2000 for an egg, 3000 for young, +1000 to train... so 4000+ for a trained mount. Pegasi are AWESOME. 60 ft land speed, 120 fly speed. I guess having a special mount doesn't mix -- if there was some way to get one AS your special mount before 7th level. Buy support -- war dogs. Trained war dogs... lots of them... expendable, 25 gp each (IIRC), they flank for you -- or any other trained monster! Paladins get Handle Animal, too... I hope that helps. A wingbound, webbed, flanked, clumsy, enfeebled, weakened, frosted, Red may be your match. Hope it works (reply if you use any of this!) :) Also note, the following buffs: Starmantle (BoED), IRON BODY
Tormsskull 05-08-06, 01:04 PM	I'm not familiar with the PrC you are looking for, but have you spoken with your DM? Does your DM know you are going to try to kill an incredibly more powerful than yourself monster? The requirement of this PrC sounds like it is meant to be taken at a higher level, which might be what you want to wait for. Plus, seeking out a creature and killing it for personal power sounds kinda evil. If you ignore everything I said above, or if your DM is assisting you in trying to get this PrC, or if you have a DM that plays with PC_Power, then I suggest (if this is allowed by the rules) taking advantage of the dragon's weakness. Red dragons tend to be aggressive and get into fights with other creatures in their vicinity. Can you attack the dragon after it has been engaged with a more powerful opponent, thus weakening it substanially? If not, get yourself some of the arrows of slaying, and if possible magic that will reduce the dragons fort save. Layer some anti-fort effects on it, and then fire away with arrows of slaying. If you can reduce the dragons fort by even 4 then you have a 50% chance of killing it (or 65% with the greater arrows).
runestar 05-08-06, 01:40 PM	Does the dragon have to be at full strength? Could you come to a compromise with your dm to let you fight a suitable weakened version of said dragon instead? Dragons are already extremely tough for their cr, a single dragon can give a party of the same EL a tough battle already, not to mention a single fighter 3 lvs lower... I am guessing you will have a pick an environment which is extremely to your advantage, or will at least nuillify those of the red dragon...
OGS-Remix 05-08-06, 01:41 PM	My suggestion is to go with the Arrows of Slaying route. If you plink him with 4 Arrows of Slaying, he's got a +14 Fortitude save. So he only has a 25% chance to die; but he needs to make the save 4 times. The chance that he makes all 4 saves is only 31.64%. The more arrows you add, the worse it gets statistically for him. And all you need is 1 failed save. Hm, thinking about it a little more, if you used Greater Arrows of Slaying, 4 arrows would be 12.96% chance that he makes all his saves. This is more cost effective then normal arrows since 4 Greater is cheaper then 8 normal, which also brings his chance to around 10% to make all saves.
bitnine 05-08-06, 02:18 PM	Red dragon, eh? Something that's dragonbane, holy, and axiomatic will end up doing an extra 6d6+2 damage a pop. But even a +1 item with those enchantments is 36,000 gold, which is steep. However, arrows and other forms of ammunition are only 720 gold per - though they might be difficult to get a hold of piecemeal. Still, depending on if you've got an item like boots of haste or something of the like, a flurry of a couple of these can make a good opener, particularly at long range. Also, consider buying a scroll of greater magic weapon with a high CL if you can get someone to cast it for you. [Edit: Seriously, go as crazy with the buffs as you can, particularly if you can get the drop. Find people to buy scrolls from, even if it means tracking down people of note and providing services for them, and have your party members use them on you. Perhaps using a +1 dragonbane bow with a few +1 holy axiomatic arrows, then using a scroll of greater magic weapon to make it a +4 bow for the fight, as well as piling on haste and greater heroism, cat's grace and some freedom of movement. You probably won't kill the dragon before it can reach you, but you'll put a large amount of hurt with any luck. /Edit]
IceFractal 05-08-06, 02:25 PM	I second the Dex-draining idea - low Dexterity is a dragon's biggest weakness. Just drop that Dexterity to 0 and the fight is won. I'd suggest Lahm's Finger Darts, but you're a Paladin, so I doubt using Corrupt spells is a good idea. Alternate idea - far too many Explosive Runes. If you know a 7th level Wizard that will help you, then you're set. Just have them keep casting Explosive Runes every day till they've filled a whole book with them (the spell lasts forever until used). Then take the pages, separate them, and put them in an fragile clay jug. Then all you need is an item of Dispel Magic, single use, as low a CL as possible. Toss the jug at the dragon, then after it shatters, use them item for an area-dispel. Every rune that isn't dispelled will explode for 6d6 force damage. Now if there were a few hundred runes ... well, no more dragon.
Lincoln Hills 05-08-06, 02:31 PM	I'll assume for a moment that the local general store does not carry arrows of dragon slaying, but let's not throw away the concept. Expand it backward and you create a couple of adventures which the DM wasn't expecting (but he'll probably jump at the chance to provide them.) If you really want a chance against so great a foe, your best bet is to ask the rest of your party to help you on a little quest called, "Let's get hold of a shield of fire resistance: let's get hold of a dragonbane warhammer: let's not forget a potion of fly." You don't have to plunder crypts or what-not: since you only want these items temporarily, they can even be a loan if somebody out there trusts you that much. In addition to being sensible, this approach lets you get the whole party in on the thing: you share the spotlight, and the rest of the gang feels accomplishment (rather than boredom) when you finally get around to defeating the dragon. Other than that, just the usual: Choose your ground, try to close escape routes, remember that cover is your friend, stick to ranged weapons as long as possible, imbue with spell ability can set you up with a couple of minor buffs, and - most importantly - plan for the possibility of failure. (By which I mean, 'have an escape plan,' not 'arrange for the maid to sweep up your remains.') Oh, one more thing. I'm pretty sure juvenile reds already have SR. Even if they don't, you shouldn't be too positive that this particular red dragon is exactly as advertised. (They don't wear their ages on their foreheads.) So be aware of SR, and avoid depending too much on any one spell. (Shivering touch, for example.)
Commander of Chaos 05-08-06, 02:53 PM	Whatever you do, don't grapple. You WILL lose if you do this. How you kill the dragon really depends upon your DM. If you can get ahold of some arrows of dragonslaying, then that is an excelent rout to take. If not, then I suggest taking the prestige class at a later level.
DarknessEternal 05-08-06, 05:13 PM	Construct a trap that will keep it immobilized and on ground level for several rounds. Then turn it into a kabob by utilizing a lance+horse+Power Attack.
StruckingFuggle 05-08-06, 05:30 PM	Seriously, the easiest way is a few +1 arrows of spell storing with Shivering Touch in them. One's bound to peg the dragon and drop it to zero dex ... it's then helpless. CDG it for four rounds, and if it's still alive, shoot it with another arrow to refresh the duration and continue. :) (I also like the magic circle against ebil idea ... paralyze it with dex damage, then trap it, just in case, or just hit the circle...) But more complex ideas are more fun. ;)
psionichamster 05-08-06, 07:01 PM	note well: Red Dragons are strong, smart, vicious, greedy, and remarkably tough. if you go toe-to-toe, you're a dead knight. instead, trick him. use traps or terrain to limit his maneuverability, and do as much dex damage as possible, right from the start. depending on your dm, poison use may be in order here. cultivate a large number of dex-damage vermin (centipedes IIRC) and use them as your "first wave" of attackers. cast bless weapon, oil of keen edge, greater magic weapon, and any kind of stat/damage/attack buffs you can. GET STONESKINNED...seriously...when a dragon fullattacks you, (not that that's a great idea), you want to be taking 5-10 damage each hit, NOT 15-20 (2d6+9 bite, 1d8+4 claws, 1d6+4 wings, 1d8+13 tail slap), and you're looking at +22 to hit with all 5 attacks...this bad boy WILL get you. from a 7th lvl caster, you're gonna knock off an extra 70 hp. AID gives you temp. hp, as does a bard's inspire heroics...although you're going to have 5 rounds from end of song to the end of those HP (although they're probably gonna be gone by them as well) and, you're going to have to hit ac 24 (minimum...expect Mage Armor or Shield w/ his caster lvl 3). good luck namaste' the hamster
tiercel 05-08-06, 08:54 PM	On the note of your armor class, this particular dragon sports +24, so unless you can get your armor class in the 30's don't even bother.Actually AC is always worth it, since most dragons worth their salt take Power Attack to convert some of that hideous attack bonus into extra damage. (A non-Power-Attacking dragon actually doesn't do that much melee damage... well, per hit anyway.) If you go in at AC 22 and the dragon realizes after a full round of melee that everything is hitting, next round you will be taking something like +5 damage per hit (or more) as the dragon brackets just how easy it is to hit you. Think of AC as "protection from Power Attack." What you really don't want to do is sit trading full-round attacks with the dragon. Since you probably can't completely avoid it, I second psionichamster: GET stoneskin. This is sort of the best possible scenario to have that effect. Your problem is that you can't afford to engage the dragon in the open, since if you DO start to win, it simply flies away -- with a fly speed of 150, a full round of retreating pretty much means it is gone. Not to mention it can strafe you with its breath... resist elements and protection from elements help, but you'll get worn down eventually. In, say, its lair it wont have the luxury of just breathing many times as unreturned attacks (and may even assume that if you are coming to face it in its lair, you already possess magical protection against its breath). Of course, heading into a dragon's lair is full of all sorts of other complications, not the least of which is FINDING it, not to mention guardians and traps installed there (and that any reasonable dragon should be nigh impossible to surprise in its lair). There are a number of feats which are almost "too good" for a dragon to pass up, and at 19 HD, there is not much reason to pass on them: Hover Wingover Multiattack Power Attack I'm not even talking about Draconomicon feats here either -- not to mention items it will have access to from its hoard. You'll need to be prepared for what the dragon is capable of if you want to have any chance of beating it. (Keep in mind that dragons are pretty much universally difficult for their CR -- their CR pretty much assumes that you know there is a dragon and you are fighting it fully loaded for dragon.) The important part of this will be in-game... get information about where the dragon is, what defenses/allies it has, what it is capable of, before you even think about going after it. The other part will be out of game... how devious and effective is your DM? If he plays the dragon like a straightforward stat block, not investing that much time into defenses, preparation, feat selection, and tactics, you can defeat the dragon with some clever tactics, preparation, and a little bit of luck. If your DM plays the dragon to its full potential, though, you're going to need everything and everyone you can lay your hands on just to survive the encounter, much less win it.
Vaelan 05-09-06, 01:02 AM	Two spells... Hide from Dragons (Draconomicon) Shivering Touch (Frostburn) You win.
Need_A_Life 05-09-06, 08:20 AM	Drain his dexterity score... Collapse his cavern while he is inside... Book of Exploding Runes... (force damage with no save) Force saves vs. massive damage... Arrows of Slaying... Wand of Planeshift (Plane of Elemental Water)... The last one is particulary nasty... it'll survive for a while before either getting killed or drowned.
Nimbus 05-09-06, 11:20 AM	I shouldn't have too much trouble getting my AC up high, the potions and items I listed in my first post will get my AC up to 29 (I'm wearing full-plate and have a +1 dex bonus) aswell as boosting my attacks up to 12/7. If I abuse the magic item creation rules for all they're worth I should be able to make my masterwork heavy pick dragonbane +1 at a cost of about 3,200 gp. (Useable by paladin only, usable by LG characters only). Abusing the same rules I can make that single use item of shield of law for about 2,400. As I've already said, I have a hippogriff and next level I'll be using it as my mount. Anyone have any ideas on how to deal with the breath weapon? I thught a potion of rife res 30 but I'm pretty sure I've heard of a spell that prevents a dragon from using it's breath weapon.
Werebat troll paladin 05-09-06, 12:18 PM	Dealing with the breath weapon depends on how you intend to attack him. If you're doing the charge thing, then yes, go with potions of decent level fire immunity or armor of fire resistance. If you intend to stand up in melee and do full attacks, then you really shouldn't be fire resistant at all, as you'll want him to waste his rounds using it as often as possible, since it deals substantially less than his full attack. Your mount is a different story. Make sure he's restant regardless of what you do.
STAT 05-09-06, 12:19 PM	Well the requirement for vassal of bahamut is that he must, "single handedly slay a juvenile red dragon." Now I think that phrase can be interpreted either to mean you have to do it completely on your own or you just have to face the dragon alone but can be aided by others before going in. I'd clear this up with your DM and see which interpretation he wants to take. As for actually doing the dead I think there are a load of great suggestions and it might also be worth waiting until you're level 9 or 10 to get some extra HP and BAB. Waiting means you could also really deck out your dragon slaying equipment.
Nimbus 05-09-06, 12:21 PM	If you intend to stand up in melee and do full attacks, then you really shouldn't be fire resistant at all, as you'll want him to waste his rounds using it as often as possible, since it deals substantially less than his full attack. Ah, but he won't be able to make full attacks. Shield of Law causes any chaotic creature that strikes it to be slowed, as the spell.
Werebat troll paladin 05-09-06, 12:32 PM	Holy Cow, I must have missed that. There's no save? If that's the case, you can almost expect him to grapple. It's really his only option at that point. Maybe consider potions of something to increase your size.
Nimbus 05-09-06, 01:04 PM	There is a save, but it's a DC 22 minimum.
Werebat troll paladin 05-09-06, 01:35 PM	Where is it and how much does it cost?
Nimbus 05-09-06, 03:20 PM	PHB and SRD. Though I think I may have misunderestimated the cost. Looking back over it, there's a 500gp material componant.
Need_A_Life 05-09-06, 03:28 PM	Someone really didn't think clearly when they decided to reduce the cost of items usable only by specific classes/races. Hey, I'd pay extra just because it'd mean no untimely lootings of my corpse (what can I say, I'm well-liked). Instead I get discount... :looloo: DM: "Great, so now when your enemy is defeated and their items identified you find them to be using "+1 keen vorpal magebane swords (of doom)" but since they're attuned to their former master you can wield it as a regular +1 sword." Player: *mumbling* "...hammergun..."
turalisj 05-09-06, 07:42 PM	I think the one thing everyone is forgetting is that he is a dragonborn. This means he has a breath attack usable as a dragons, and can use it as a frost breath. Take maximise breath and quicken breath. Start off the fight with a quickend maximized icy breath, then go in chopping with your +1 frost weapon. When your breath weapon comes up again, rinse and repeat. Apply several times for best results. In the end, you'll have one chilled dragon and be on your way to the PrC. (and at level 6, your maximised breath weapon should be about 18)
Edwind 05-09-06, 07:58 PM	I'm actually doing the same thing. Vessel I mean. I've been thinking on a way to kill one, but unlike you I think I have a semi better chance. AC:27 HP:88 Helps out lots. 31 if I go Full Defencive. He also has some great saves though. 12/9/7(?) So I can withstand his breathweapon. The Dragonbane sounds like a really good idea, I think I'll try for it. Although my DM is a pretty big ass, so it will most likely be harder then it should be...Soooooo impossible? I'll check in here every onceinawhile. Good luck.
tiercel 05-09-06, 11:42 PM	If I abuse the magic item creation rules for all they're worth I should be able to make my masterwork heavy pick dragonbane +1 at a cost of about 3,200 gp. (Useable by paladin only, usable by LG characters only). Abusing the same rules I can make that single use item of shield of law for about 2,400.No offense, but if he is going to let you get a ~8300gp weapon for only 3200gp, and a "potion" of an 8th level spell (i.e. something functionally identical to a potion, but ignoring the restriction on potions) for less than the cost of a scroll of that same spell (3000gp), then one of two things is likely true: Your DM will stick to the rules while allowing you to twist, bend, fold, and abuse them at will, at which point, you probably don't really need our help, or he will twist, bend, fold, and abuse the rules as much for the dragon as he lets you do, which means the dragon is likely to kill your PC so hard that his death will travel back in time and make him drop dead while still riding around looking for the lair.
Insanit 05-10-06, 12:21 AM	he will twist, bend, fold, and abuse the rules as much for the dragon as he lets you do, which means the dragon is likely to kill your PC so hard that his death will travel back in time and make him drop dead while still riding around looking for the lair.[/list] :rofl:
Darth Sephiroth 05-10-06, 01:52 AM	I killed one solo at level 5 with one really good weapon (Pair of Scimitars enchanted with a keen, Dragonbane, Icy Burst, Holy, and Axiomatic) and used a potion of Fire Immunity and a satchel full of Alchemists Ice. Remember you can Smite Evil the sucker as well. I also had a smashing flask full of a potion for the spell that removes flight.
Koretsu 05-10-06, 02:24 AM	When fighting a dragon at any level, tactics is key. Potions and Magic items help, though they can be prohibitivly expensive (Unless you find some way to get around the cost... Find a Red Dragon that is raiding a local city. If you can convince the leaders to assist you in taking it down, you may have a fighting chance. For that one, you'd best work on your diplomacy skill. Even so, being a paladin, you are able to honestly offer to return the items once you succeed, which will help.) The book of exalted deeds is all about taking paths that the average man would not take, or even consider taking. Dragonslaying is a good example. The dragon, though a fierce foe, has numerous weaknesses. His biggest, however, is his paltry dexterity score of 10. In fact, I know of a brilliant method to kill a red dragon without rolling inititive. (I'd be mean not to give credit where credit is due. This idea was inspired by the story of Codey Lightfoot, on page 57 of Races of the Wild.) All you need is enough money for a couple water skins, a large horse (I hate to say it, but your hippogriff would do nicely), and some 35 doses of Tarinav Root (Page 98, complete adventurer). If your party has some way of getting ahold of a poison crafter, you may be able to talk him in to making you the poison in exchange for some sort of quest, or perhaps promise of half the dragon's horde. Again, Diplomacy is key. What you do once you have these items is, you first remove all your armor. You may want to have your party buffer do something about your move silently score. From there, wait until the dragon is asleep in his lair. Bring in your horse, loaded up with the water skins, which are filled with your poison. Once the dragon awakens, he'll find some poor adventurer's lost horse, and devourer it, before leaving to seek out said adventurer. At that point, the dragon, suddenly in contact with the massive amounts of Tarinav Root, needs to make 35 fortitude saves. The DC is 16, but the law of averages dictates that he'll roll a natural 1 on at least one of them. At which point, the dragon takes (at least) 1d6 Dexterity damage. A minute later, 35 more fortitude saves should result in a natural 1 for at least another 2d6 Dex damage. If you can manage to get (at least) 3d6 to total 10, you have a dragon that is paralysed for the next 24 hours, immobile. You have 24 hours to make a coup de grace. Congratulations. You're a dragon slayer.
prozacman 05-10-06, 03:19 AM	you wont outgrapple it.. forget that, need something to grant you freedom of movement... if it grabs you you need to auto-escape. in races of dragon there are a bunch of spells that weaken dragons. ones that remove the breath weapon and make them incapable of flying. then buy as many dragonslaying arrows as you can afford, and make sure your mount gets the hover feat. fly above the dragon in place and pelt him with greater slaying arrows until it fails a save. pray that he fails the saves for the spells... dont get eaten
kelvinaw273 05-10-06, 02:58 PM	When fighting a dragon at any level, tactics is key. Potions and Magic items help, though they can be prohibitivly expensive (Unless you find some way to get around the cost... Find a Red Dragon that is raiding a local city. If you can convince the leaders to assist you in taking it down, you may have a fighting chance. For that one, you'd best work on your diplomacy skill. Even so, being a paladin, you are able to honestly offer to return the items once you succeed, which will help.) The book of exalted deeds is all about taking paths that the average man would not take, or even consider taking. Dragonslaying is a good example. The dragon, though a fierce foe, has numerous weaknesses. His biggest, however, is his paltry dexterity score of 10. In fact, I know of a brilliant method to kill a red dragon without rolling inititive. (I'd be mean not to give credit where credit is due. This idea was inspired by the story of Codey Lightfoot, on page 57 of Races of the Wild.) All you need is enough money for a couple water skins, a large horse (I hate to say it, but your hippogriff would do nicely), and some 35 doses of Tarinav Root (Page 98, complete adventurer). If your party has some way of getting ahold of a poison crafter, you may be able to talk him in to making you the poison in exchange for some sort of quest, or perhaps promise of half the dragon's horde. Again, Diplomacy is key. What you do once you have these items is, you first remove all your armor. You may want to have your party buffer do something about your move silently score. From there, wait until the dragon is asleep in his lair. Bring in your horse, loaded up with the water skins, which are filled with your poison. Once the dragon awakens, he'll find some poor adventurer's lost horse, and devourer it, before leaving to seek out said adventurer. At that point, the dragon, suddenly in contact with the massive amounts of Tarinav Root, needs to make 35 fortitude saves. The DC is 16, but the law of averages dictates that he'll roll a natural 1 on at least one of them. At which point, the dragon takes (at least) 1d6 Dexterity damage. A minute later, 35 more fortitude saves should result in a natural 1 for at least another 2d6 Dex damage. If you can manage to get (at least) 3d6 to total 10, you have a dragon that is paralysed for the next 24 hours, immobile. You have 24 hours to make a coup de grace. Congratulations. You're a dragon slayer. All assuming that the dragon does item (1) and eats the horse. Most dragons, not being stupid, will look at this and say "a horse in my lair? So where is the adventurer?" Dragons are known for their poor dex. They are alos known for their humngous int and wis scores. What if decides to prod arouns those skins to see what is in them? What if it tastes bad, or he gets suspicious? What if he 'shells' the meal first?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 05-10-06, 03:47 PM	All assuming that the dragon does item (1) and eats the horse. Most dragons, not being stupid, will look at this and say "a horse in my lair? So where is the adventurer?" Dragons are known for their poor dex. They are alos known for their humngous int and wis scores. What if decides to prod arouns those skins to see what is in them? What if it tastes bad, or he gets suspicious? What if he 'shells' the meal first? Also, would leaving an animal as a sacrifice to paralyze the dragon and kill it when it's helpless violate the Paladin's code of honor? Depends on the DM. Most would be ok with you killing a Red while it's helpless, but leaving an animal as bait (for poison?!) I don't think so.
Derren S. 05-10-06, 04:20 PM	I killed one solo at level 5 with one really good weapon (Pair of Scimitars enchanted with a keen, Dragonbane, Icy Burst, Holy, and Axiomatic) and used a potion of Fire Immunity and a satchel full of Alchemists Ice. Remember you can Smite Evil the sucker as well. I also had a smashing flask full of a potion for the spell that removes flight. Oh yes, what a feat using equipment appropriate for a lvl 20 character which also violates the rules. And I bet your DM also played the dragon as dumb as he could to make absolutly sure that you would win.
SilentOne 05-10-06, 04:55 PM	Ya, all this stuff about poison? Goodbye paladinhood. Unlike some of the touchy feely "what EXACTLY is this evil you speak of" stuff, it specifically says no using poison in the code of honor. However, the spells work, as do others' suggestion. Just make sure to roll you Knowledge check to see what you actually know about red dragons, you can't just metagame from the MM.
Ivelios2 05-10-06, 05:11 PM	Well I have to go with one of the major things said above that controlling where you fight and setting it up to your advantage is key. Obviously you cant just walk into its own lair and set things up wihich will probably take days or weeks so you must lure the dragon to a place of your choosing. I would two different ways to do this. First you could spread rumors about a hugley rich caravan traveling in x area x area of course being near but not to near the dragons lair. Any red dragon worth his salt has some ears out for valuable trasures and will seek to plunder this one you appear as any other simple caravan guard and always keep your prepared spot near the caravan as you travel. Hopefully the dragon wont watch you for days beforehand and notice that you arent moving far. Second when the dragon leaves to eat or you bait him away with somthing else you invade his lair and steal a few horde items and red dragon will immediatly notice their missing upon their return use magical means to find them and get them back as soon as possiable. As for how to set up your chosen battlefield may i suggest underwater with a waterbreathing and freedom of movment spell this will nullify both the dragons breath weapon and flight. Another good tactic is one dwarves often imploy against invaders use small caverns limiting the dragons movment and eliminating its flight and simply cave a section in on his head. Even a dragon cant fight 40 tons of rock.
CowMasterTrojan 05-10-06, 06:31 PM	One thing to remember is that you have some spellcasting abilities to back you up. Get a hold of scrolls with holy sword and resist energy. Holy sword costs 700gp and makes your weapon a +5 and deals a additional 2d6 damage. Resist Energy Costs 150gp. It gives you a energy resistance of 10, but you could pay alittle extra to make it 20 or 30. But the key is to still be taking alittle damage from the breath weapon, that way the dragon will still percieve it as effective. Remember, he's young and he's arrogant so even though he's smart he still makes stupid mistakes. As others have said before, its all about the preperation. You can't overpower him, so you have to prepare and out-think him. Someone mentioned luring him out of his lair with the lure of treasure. How you get this information to him could easily be a good role for the other party members to keep them involved. Once he does leave, take all his hoard. Make sure the DM knows your not trying to just steal his treasure though. Leave a note justifying your actions. It could go "you have taken many lives, so I have taken your treasure. In X days or hours (make it a small window but something the dragon could make) I will destroy it all at place Y." What has just happened is the dragon has been tricked, robbed, threatened, and now has a time clock. He's young and hes arrogant. He won't prepare for a fight, he'll barge into wherever you are as fast as he can with a vengence. The lair shouldn't be to hard to come by. The structure needs to be stone so it doesn't burn and solid enough that it doesn't collapse on you. The area where you fight should be a hallway 5ft wide. The Juvenile dragon is large and, as per RAW, can squeeze into such an area by taking on major penalties. If you can get a maze, thats perfect. Spread his treasure throughout the maze, maybe with some "accidental droppings" of it to get him inside. I'd set up a escape route incase this goes bad. Maybe even a series of iron gates to trap him, while you shoot him. He can still rely on spells and breath weapons so this should be considered fair still. Good hunting
Koretsu 05-11-06, 12:09 AM	Oh, right. Paladin. Forgot. Poisons are a no-no... Oh, but I've got it. I know the perfect way to kill a dragon. The total magic item cost? 1,200 GP. :D Go into the dragon's lair, and stand a good distance back. Shout at the dragon some insult, preferably in draconic. Wait for the dragon's attention. Put your 1,200 GP worth of magic items in your hand, and set a readied action for the dragon's fire breath. As soon as the dragon opens it's mouth, throw in the items. The items? Quaal's Feather Token: Tree. :D Quite suddenly, the dragon's mouth is full of 3 50-foot oak trees, each going in a different direction. I would be amazed if anything short of the Tarrasque survived that.
tsuyoshikentsu 05-11-06, 01:25 AM	...That... wow... Here's another one. Throw a decanter of endless water into his mouth and yell "GUSH!"
Koretsu 05-11-06, 01:40 AM	...That... wow... Here's another one. Throw a decanter of endless water into his mouth and yell "GUSH!" Thing is, he can spit the decanter out. :P EDIT: Just checked the item description. My mistake. It's three sixty foot oak trees in the dragon's mouth.
Archangel62 05-11-06, 01:54 AM	Prep is key, best reccomendation I can give is this dragonslaying is tough as a team alone it's almost impossible but it doesn't have to be. Talk to the party about getting help, not even in spells necessarily, but to help get information and also to help pool to get gear. My reccomendation is focus heavily on potions and speed buffs. Basically play the alchemical warrior, well that and there is one possibility involving explosive runes but I'm not sure if you could survive the end results either...that or the explosive chicken trick if you have the gp for the potions.
StruckingFuggle 05-11-06, 02:59 AM	Oh yes, what a feat using equipment appropriate for a lvl 20 character which also violates the rules. And I bet your DM also played the dragon as dumb as he could to make absolutly sure that you would win. Which of those items "violates the rules"? Well I guess the potion might, but if it was an oil, and you took the standard action to apply it to the dragon (nothing says you can't)...
Archangel62 05-11-06, 03:13 AM	I think what was meant was that the weaponry used was far out of the reach of a fifth level character, pretty much the gp level might not have been 20th level but it was far beyond 5th. The standard rules are pretty much that you shouldn't have that much damn treasure at that low of a level.
Dahil 05-11-06, 04:16 AM	Hmmm....normally i love this type of challenge, but i'm exhausted after a long day of work. So instead of a slew of ideas, all i have is one. Sorry. (I'm known in my group for finding very unusual and surprisingly effective solutions. I'm not saying that this one is, but hey, it takes a lot of wierd/stupid stuff to sort through to find a brilliant idea.) One possible solution: -Use some money to buy a dragon egg/very young dragon -Wait till it becomes the right age category (this might require storyline excuses or chronomancy) -Kill your pet (Much easier than killing some wild dragon, man, those things are dangerous!) Joking aside, your absolute best bet is to: 1-find where the dragon is 2-Get some good cover at medium ranges 3-Full attack with your bow, using Dragonslaying arrows (Natural 1s happen, you just need enough chances!) If you are having trouble with his AC, get a Ring of Spell Storing with Wraithstrike in it, or at least True Strike. 4-Run away if necessary (Have a good escape route) 5-Wash, rinse, repeat
Archangel62 05-11-06, 04:18 AM	Well, it technically violates the spirit but this could work... 1) find location of dragon and learn what you can about the geology of the area. 2) Do what you can to scout the area with whatever you have available. 3) Collapse and/or flood the lair, this will restrict it usually as well as partially injure it, move in and fight it with you prepared for the new arena with the Dragon having to react to you.
MongooseWarrior 05-11-06, 12:36 PM	rock to mud then mud to rock BOOM 1 trapped dragon
darth_blitzkrieg 05-12-06, 10:22 AM	Combine the underwater fight with a narrow cave for best effect. Or have a small cave and a way to flood it after the dragon gets inside. If you fight him airborne, bring a sling and use the marbles created from dust of dryness. On impact, up to 100 gallons of water, in the face. Catch the dragon when he is flying at high speed and you have the same effect as him flying into a wall. A 800 lb wall of water. (Consult your DM in advance to get best effect). Only thing better would be a way to insta-freeze the dragon immediately afterwards. (Frost/Icy Burst sling?)
WarColonel 05-12-06, 05:35 PM	Tanglefoot bags. Sovereign glue. Anything that can be used to decrease the dragon's ability to move. Of course, if the society you live in is advanced enough (or you have a PC who likes to experiment), black powder is fun. May not be so useful in the hurting of the dragon, but is an easy way to make his lair nothing more then his tomb.
Derren S. 05-12-06, 06:53 PM	Which of those items "violates the rules"? Well I guess the potion might, but if it was an oil, and you took the standard action to apply it to the dragon (nothing says you can't)... Yes, the potion. The maximum spell level for Potion and oils is lvl 3 and energy immunity is much higher then that. Also alchemist ice doesn't exist to my knowledge. With all the advantages your DM gave you he could also simply have said "You killed the dragon", skipping the fight entirely, so please spare me with your "I killed a red dragon at lvl 5" boasting. I hope you aren't proud of that feat because it is nothing to be proud of. 3-Full attack with your bow, using Dragonslaying arrows (Natural 1s happen, you just need enough chances!) If you are having trouble with his AC, get a Ring of Spell Storing with Wraithstrike in it, or at least True Strike. Wraithstrike only works in melee combat.
Ziggaraut 05-12-06, 10:22 PM	Some people seem to be forgetting that juviniles don't often have their own lairs yet, unless I am mistaken...
Derren S. 05-13-06, 04:42 AM	Some people seem to be forgetting that juviniles don't often have their own lairs yet, unless I am mistaken... That depends. Either the dragon grew up in the wilderness where it would have its own lair or grew up with its parents and stays in their lair or in a lair close by. As you want slay the dragon and want to live you should search a dragon of the first kind.
Wargamer 05-13-06, 09:19 AM	Easy... Go in, act tough. When the dragon readies itself to fight you, suddenly look puzzled and say "are you feeling alright?". No matter what, persist in acting curious, suggesting the dragon is in some way sick. Make it bad. Really bad! Anything from bubonic plague to a rare breed of syphilis that turns your gonads into a gelatinous cube. Next, point out you heard about this... but the cure is very rare, and very expensive. As a Paladin, you are sworn to help those in need (remind him of this), so long as they have done you no harm... so you are, in effect, duty-bound to help him. The cure should, naturally, be bad for him. Anything that will make him weaker, preferably dealing some Con-damage on the way. Continue to re-assure the Dragon throughout treatment that, whilst he might feel like he's dying, he's actually getting better and that without the aid received thus far, he'd be dead (or worse). Finally, when the poor bugger's got feth-all ability to fight left, put him out of his misery with a coup-de-grois, having poisoned him so badly the only alternative left is to allow him to die an agonising death as his stomach explodes. You might be stretching the old allignment here and there... but hey, Paladins are Lawful Good, not Bloody-Stupid. ;)
Derren S. 05-13-06, 10:40 AM	You might be stretching the old allignment here and there... but hey, Paladins are Lawful Good, not Bloody-Stupid. ;) And dragons are? (If theye aren't this plan has not a good chance of succeeding)
Nimbus 05-13-06, 11:16 AM	Possiby I could use a ravage instead.
Gleddon 05-13-06, 12:09 PM	Easy... Go in, act tough. When the dragon readies itself to fight you, suddenly look puzzled and say "are you feeling alright?". No matter what, persist in acting curious, suggesting the dragon is in some way sick. Make it bad. Really bad! Anything from bubonic plague to a rare breed of syphilis that turns your gonads into a gelatinous cube. Next, point out you heard about this... but the cure is very rare, and very expensive. As a Paladin, you are sworn to help those in need (remind him of this), so long as they have done you no harm... so you are, in effect, duty-bound to help him. The cure should, naturally, be bad for him. Anything that will make him weaker, preferably dealing some Con-damage on the way. Continue to re-assure the Dragon throughout treatment that, whilst he might feel like he's dying, he's actually getting better and that without the aid received thus far, he'd be dead (or worse). Finally, when the poor bugger's got feth-all ability to fight left, put him out of his misery with a coup-de-grois, having poisoned him so badly the only alternative left is to allow him to die an agonising death as his stomach explodes. You might be stretching the old allignment here and there... but hey, Paladins are Lawful Good, not Bloody-Stupid. ;) I would recommend not following this plan of action. I'm not certain is using a poison would truly violate your paladin code, but the fact that you're using deceit in order to kill an unexpecting target certainly should. If you're DM lets it slide past the paladin code, then there's still the question of your exalted status, which could just as easily be voided by this (putting a halt to all atempts to obtain the desired PrC). I'm not sure what type of DM is running this campaign, so who's to say that he or she would even let something like this work? It's a unique plan, but is the dragon going to fall for it? Would it take the time to even listen to someone that just walked in "acting tough", and then changed his course of action so wildly? Does the dragon have any ways of telling you're trying to pull a fast one (magic item, spell, sense motive)? ...or was this suggestion merely a joke?
STAT 05-13-06, 01:38 PM	You might be stretching the old allignment here and there... but hey, Paladins are Lawful Good, not Bloody-Stupid. And dragons are? (If theye aren't this plan has not a good chance of succeeding) Well a juvenile red dragon only has an Int of 14, smart but not epicly smart either. I think some people are playing up the dragon a bit in here. No doubt the dragon wont be a mental push over but with 14 int, 15 wis, 14 cha he's not going to be incredible either. A juvenile dragon is between ages 26-50, that's human adult age range. Outsmarting the dragon is a valid option and shouldn't be impossibly hard. That being said wargamer's plan has flaws as others have pointed out.
Derren S. 05-13-06, 03:36 PM	You forget that humas only have and int of 10. A juvenile dragon with int 14 is much smarter then every normal human. God I love it when people think everything under 18 is bad...
Nimbus 05-13-06, 04:43 PM	Thankfully my paladin has similar stats to the dragon (other than in str and con.) Maybe a one use item of maximised lesser orb of cold? 60 damage a hit. OR better yet, three of them.
STAT 05-13-06, 10:44 PM	You forget that humas only have and int of 10. A juvenile dragon with int 14 is much smarter then every normal human. God I love it when people think everything under 18 is bad... And you have some people running around here like the dragon has an int of 26. All I was pointing out was that an int of 14 isn't insurmountable. The dragon is not going to intuit every possible trick you can pull out. I'd also like to see where I made the statement that an int of 14 was bad because, that was not my intent. Also, as Nimbus points out, adventurers are not your normal humans (ie: Nimbus has stats similar to the dragon).
Edwind 05-13-06, 11:21 PM	I know for one I don't match the dragon I'm going to eventually fight... 7 Int 9 Wis 16 Cha Sooo....A lizardfolk with the smarts of a 2nd grader plans on taking out a red dragon...How? I'm thinking ravanges. Touch of Golden Icem 2d6 Dex damage. Or I could have taken the feat Touch of Golden Ice, and maybe stand a better chance?
Koretsu 05-14-06, 12:35 AM	Easy... Go in, act tough. When the dragon readies itself to fight you, suddenly look puzzled and say "are you feeling alright?". No matter what, persist in acting curious, suggesting the dragon is in some way sick. Make it bad. Really bad! Anything from bubonic plague to a rare breed of syphilis that turns your gonads into a gelatinous cube. Next, point out you heard about this... but the cure is very rare, and very expensive. As a Paladin, you are sworn to help those in need (remind him of this), so long as they have done you no harm... so you are, in effect, duty-bound to help him. The cure should, naturally, be bad for him. Anything that will make him weaker, preferably dealing some Con-damage on the way. Continue to re-assure the Dragon throughout treatment that, whilst he might feel like he's dying, he's actually getting better and that without the aid received thus far, he'd be dead (or worse). Finally, when the poor bugger's got feth-all ability to fight left, put him out of his misery with a coup-de-grois, having poisoned him so badly the only alternative left is to allow him to die an agonising death as his stomach explodes. You might be stretching the old allignment here and there... but hey, Paladins are Lawful Good, not Bloody-Stupid. ;) Again, the same idea that inspired my origional poison idea. It's from the story of Codey Lightfoot, in Races of the Wilds.
Solidcobra 05-14-06, 09:04 AM	Get the party wizard to find a wand of lesser energy substitute. Cast lots of ice traps (fire traps with ice instead) on dozens of tiny boxes, put them in slightly larger, ice-trapped boxes, put these in one large ice-trapped box. put strings on all that lead to one single string. lay it down next to the dragon. pull string. Many, many, many ice traps in his face. Costly? Yeah. sorta. Win? Yeah. Definitely.