Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siduakal 07-10-05, 04:54 PM	Okay, I play a Paladin. On top of that.. he's a Homebrew world race halfbreed.. A Celestial race that was created by a redeemed Demon to hunt Demons. He's a half-breed of that Celestial race. Including different benefits (Namely, he can only be killed by Holy/Unholy weapons, and they merely banish him to the Twin Paradises for a year and a day. (He can be killed in the outer planes, though) Well, I don't want to be TOO lenient on my looking at evil. But I don't want to be too hard, either. The reason being? I have a permanent detect evil (Has it's drawbacks.. especially if you stumble into some strong auras unexpectedly) so I can see when people are bad, and generally how bad.. Well, the party is my Paladin, a Neutral (True neutral) PsyWar/Monk, a Half-Dragon (Bronze.. He's good, I forget which type), and a Human Necromancer.. Now.. the Necromancer is evil, due to the forces she draws power from.. How do I work with her as a Paladin (She fights evil, she's not an evil person morales wise.. Just by the means she uses..) without being too un-paladin?
Flushmaster 07-10-05, 05:56 PM	I'm not sure about your homebrew setting, but nothing in the core rules say that necromancers are inherently evil. Granted, there are several necromancy spells with the [evil] descriptor, but a character can be of a neutral alignment and still use these spells. She could be a good aligned necromancer and specifically avoid spells with that descriptor. A character who fights evil (because they personally dislike evil) and uses some [evil] spells (but other spells as well) is most likely neutral, not evil.
Siduakal 07-10-05, 05:59 PM	Ah yes, but this character is evil as in.. Can't even come near my character unless he dismisses his protective aura without feeling uncomfortable. I'm not sure why the DM made her this way, but behavioral she's very nice. (It's a DMPC to make balancing encounters easier)
celtredleg 07-10-05, 06:47 PM	I tend to want to kill DMPCs as a matter of course. As a paladin with an evil one, should be no problems!!! Its really a matter for your DM to advise you on as he is the one who set this mess up. I wont let a paladin function with an evil person in the group if they know it. Thats right out of the PHB write up. So if your DM has changed that you need some sort of guideline on how it works. Of course if the necro is really neutral then you have no problems
Siduakal 07-10-05, 07:08 PM	Ah, it's changed Paladins. You just have to be good-aligned. And the DMPC is also the girlfriend of one of the players. Plus, she also saved the Paladins life. (He got finger of death'd, made his throw but went negative from the damage.. she feather falled him before he hit the ground.. he was flying in aerial melee combat)
obrysii 07-10-05, 07:20 PM	Evil DMPC = NPC to be slaughtered :)
Calibron 07-10-05, 07:50 PM	Well since your PC sees she is effectively neutral, maybe even good, and apparently only has an evil aura since her powers a fueled by the negative energy plane I don't see why he would want to attack her. Be suspicious of her and never let your guard down in case she really is evil, perhaps, but not try to kill her.
Siduakal 07-10-05, 07:56 PM	Well.. she's physically incapable of killing my character. None of her magic can do the job. She can banish me to the Twin Paradises.. but that's it.
fallabel 07-10-05, 08:24 PM	Umm...sounds like a bad DM, to me. I mean, the DM has complete control over what the DMPC is. The DMPC is causing a problem that could potentially ruin a player's character concept. The DM should change the DMPC. </rant> Just an aside: How is your character balanced mechanically? I'm curious about what you had to give up in order to be virtually impossible to kill.
Siduakal 07-11-05, 04:24 AM	Well, I can only hit stuff we're fighting on a 20.. lol. I'm having to pay **** LOADS of experience to buy off my LA. (I've so far bought it down by 3.. ) And we're fighting epic enemies for the most part.. (White Slaads are fun..) Trust me.. I pay immense amounts for the power. It's more a long term benefit than a short term one. And with Adamantine not existing in the world, there's no way I can really easily sunder those weapons. Plus, I can be BANISHED like any other outsider to the outer planes.
Calibron 07-11-05, 04:30 AM	Well.. she's physically incapable of killing my character. None of her magic can do the job. She can banish me to the Twin Paradises.. but that's it. ...um...okay, but what about your companions and random innocents? Anyway that wasn't even the main point of my post. Why do you feel that your character should feel compeled to kill this person?
Siduakal 07-11-05, 01:10 PM	Well that's what I'm asking, SHOULD he? Based simply on the fact she has an evil aura? It's my first Paladin.. so I'm not sure how fanatical they are usually.
Faragon 07-11-05, 01:22 PM	A good paladin judges someone on their actions and intentions, not wether they're a red dot or a blue dot on their radar. Try and stop the DMPC if she's up to something that clashes with what your character deems is good, possibly killing her if she turns on you. In the meantime, try and redeem the DMPC, get her to notice the error in her (evil) ways and maybe even abandon them. It sounds like the character is a typical "doing good through evil means" type. Don't let it get to the point of swords/magic unless she does something bad enough to warrant it. Until she does, try and redeem her. (ex: using necromancy to save innocent lives vs. cutting out a child's heart for use in a dark ritual)
Pyritefoolsgold 07-12-05, 02:15 AM	Well, first off you were raised by a redeemed demon, so you likely believe in the idea of redemption. Therefore you are probably allowing the necro in the party because you believe that you can convince her to abandon her ways and come into the light. Also, so long as she hasn't hurt any innocents in front of you, you may not feel in your rights to kill her (Because being evil does not mean that you deserve death, so long as you haven't comitted a crime) and yet you believe that she may do evil, so you want to keep her in your sight. Hell, maybe the evil is from some dark past of hers, and she's moving away from it.
Siduakal 07-12-05, 02:31 AM	Actually, he knows it is. She used to be a vampire..
Gedrin 07-12-05, 03:27 AM	I would think the attitude toward a necro would have a whole lot to do with your characters understanding of the impact of her magic. If bringing negative energy into this world acts to destroy the world and life itself as a whole, probably not going to be happy when she's whitling away at the life force of the world. Usually it's seen as a corrupting force that is often used to violate the universal laws of life and death. Breaking the fundamental laws of the universe while participating in the destruction of all life in order to gain power...bad news. If bringing negative energy into the world does nothing other than power those spells, meh. Of course, many of those spells maim, inflict extratordinary pain, and cripple people for life. Some of them directly target the soul, which is generally considered a no-no. Even a lower level spell like Vampiric Touch is basically,"I steal your life energy for myself." So, decide what your character thinks necromancy is. That should give you a good idea of what your character thinks of the necromancer.
Thoronmir 07-12-05, 03:53 PM	Just to be clear, you’re asking us for advice on how to play a homebrew race and homebrew class? I have to ask … have you consulted the brewmaster (the DM)? Since your DM has apparently stripped away the restrictions that distinguish Paladins from other Good characters, the fact that you play a class called “Paladin” doesn’t really matter. If the only class requirement is that you be Good-aligned, then just react to the Necro as any Good-aligned character should.
Archangel_James 07-12-05, 04:31 PM	Well if she saved your life, you should have an debt to repay to her. In this case, overlooking her "evil"-ness until she commits a truly evil act might be fair.
Callista 07-12-05, 06:04 PM	How do I work with her as a Paladin (She fights evil, she's not an evil person morales wise.. Just by the means she uses..) without being too un-paladin? Well, your character won't want to work with an evil character, so the only way for this to work out is if your character doesn't know the other guy is evil. Work with your DM: He should allow the other character to start with something like a ring of misdirection, which will defeat your character's radar. If you're lucky, his character will be able to hide from yours enough that he'll think the necromancer is just a self-interested Neutral. On your own part, giving your character a bit of a naive attitude towards friends should help a great deal: He'll believe the best of the necromancer, rather than being suspicious. Your character is LG, and probably a rather severe LG at that, judging from the background. If you want to be Lawful, you'll have to fight against evil and never, never compromise on your methods. It's a step further from Good, which just fights against evil using any non-evil methods... you also have to be Honorable! That said, you don't want to go to either extreme in dealing with the Evil guy: Fact is, though, eventually you're going to find out he's evil, and then one or both of you may either die or leave the party. If you find out the guy is evil, that doesn't mean he deserves death. In a RAW game, evil characters can be evil without having done anything that you can lawfully kill them for. So don't go smite-happy when he forgets to put on his ring and starts showing an aura. However, that doesn't mean your character (Lawful, remember) can compromise and still associate with the Evil person. If he were Chaotic, yeah, because he'd believe in the importance of individuality... but not a Lawful Good character. Depending on how your character thinks, especially his Charisma and Intelligence scores, he may decide to leave the party, try to kick the Evil character out of it (especially if the rest of the party is Good), or bring the Evil character in to the authorities to be tried. An Evil character working for Good ends is still Evil. You'll have to deal with your party member eventually; and, probably, one or the other of you will end up leaving the party. You should both have back-up characters for that eventuality. So let's say you catch him doing something evil... say he's torturing that guard you just captured. Probably, unless you have INT < 6 or something, you're going to know the guy just did something crazy evil even if he doesn't show an aura. Your first impulse should be to stop the evil (you're Good) and your second to bring him to justice (you're Lawful). If that means you have to kill him, go ahead, but only if you have to. Your character will probably favor a fair trial over frontier justice. Mercy is a big part of many Paladins' codes, and if it's in yours, go for it: When you've got him taken down, demand surrender, tie him up good, and bring him to the authorities. This has the added benefit of "saving" the character to act either as a villain in the same game or in a later game without Paladins in it. There's also the possibility that your character finds out the Evil guy is Evil, and knows that he'll just get killed if he tries to capture/kill him. In this case, I would suggest leaving the party and going for reinforcements (you should have enough connections by then to do this). Above all, make sure you and the other player have agreed that you're both willing to do this, and know that one or the other of you is probably going to end up shelving their character... it's inevitable.
Siduakal 07-12-05, 06:51 PM	Well it's a homebrew world, so CG is allowed. And the two Deities of the world are the good one, who is the goddess of understanding. And the evil one, who well.. he's a tyrant and a warlord to say the least. That's why any good alignment is okay for Paladins. My character wasn't raised by a Demon, he is close with him, though. His race itself was created by a demon. My character was raised by a full Seluri (The celestial races name) who was created by the Demon and by a Human woman who is a general of his countries armies. (The Seluri is king, he's the only full one who lives on the material plane full time. And his two half-bred kids. my character and his sister) But because of the Goddess of Understanding, I'd think that my character would be able to understand that as long as this necromancer commits no acts of evil, he should not kill her. He also doesn't attack first, ever. We fought a dreadbringer and my character drew a line in the dirt road and stood 20' behind it and told it that it had one chance to change its mind. So he's not a total zealot, I'm just not sure if he should be totally incapable of trusting this girl and watching her like a hawk or be relaxed.
Acefowl 07-12-05, 06:59 PM	I know this is going WAY off topic...but how is it your campaign has a True Neutral Monk PC? Don't they need some Lawful in them somewhere?
Siduakal 07-12-05, 08:04 PM	Er custom monk for the world. This worlds been evolved since 2E. So it has a LOT of custom stuff. The monk type he is draws energies from the plane of negative energy and shadow to do its more unique skills. Actually, instead of the "Native Outsider" most monks become this monk type is absorbed by the plane of shadow if they study it that far.
Darth Doom 07-12-05, 10:00 PM	So, let me get this straight. Your a Palladin that was created via a redeemed demon, who follows the goddess of understanding. You have Detect Evil on continously via a racial ability, and you are immune to the magic's of a Necromaner thus meaning she is a threat level 0 to you. (He got finger of death'd, made his throw but went negative from the damage.. she feather falled him before he hit the ground.. he was flying in aerial melee combat) Finger of Death is a 7th level Necromancy spell. Arent you immune to those? On topic however, There is currently no indication of the Necromancer being evil. From what Ive read she's been the victim of a cruel joke (Being turned into a Vampire, then getting changed back to human), and little more. Being a Necromancer in itself is not evil, it what she does with the power that will decide whether she is good, neutral or evil. While it may seem a bit deep, has your character tried to find out why she is treaded the path she is currently on? Perhaps she wants to unlock the very secrets of death and the afterlife, so that she can return an old Vampire friend back to being a living creature? Possibly she is the brooding type, having spent many nights debating with herself the reason for being alive when death is eternal, and she seeks a way around it? Branding each and every category of spell caster with a certain label - such as Necromancers as Evil, after all, you were created by a redeemed demon, something that is meant to be the epitome of evil - is folly in the long run, as it really depends on the individual case.
Siduakal 07-13-05, 12:38 AM	Thanks Darth. That helps. And no, he's not immune to necromancy per se. She's just incapable of actually KILLING him.. Granted, she could keep him unconscious for an eternity until she found what kills him. But only the Seluri race know what will kill them for sure. But you pretty much answered my question. Which was how to react. It makes no sense to just go blood lust fanatical on her, she's done no wrong to any good creatures or the weak that he's even heard of.
Pyritefoolsgold 07-13-05, 09:45 PM	Then again, the Dm's Character could always do this (http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=202) (look at the bottom panels)