Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMonk 11-07-07, 06:11 AM	Ok so, I was reading this thread where someone wanted to make drizzt as a character. Everyone told him not to do it etc etc, and that it basically sucks or something. People were even preparing themselves for some serious flaming. Many just flat out stated "no" to this idea. So what's the deal with this character anyway? Why do people even downright refuse to help and just say one should not make him actually? I mean what's the story behind the whole drizzt thing? What's actually SO bad about making a char like that, that people tell you not to do it all the time? I'm kinda ignorant on this character so you must excuse me :)
Fatalis_902 11-07-07, 06:44 AM	Drizz't is the main character in the R.A. Salvatore FR novels (I believe). He is a CG Drow who wields dual scimitars in battle and has a panther as an animal companion. He has turned his back on his race (can't blame him), and managed to make enemies of some very powerful entities, including Lolth and two major fiends. He has some friends and allies in the surface world, but he always feels bad about the danger his presence puts them in. In short, he's a guy that has the potential for some good roleplaying if done once. Just once. Unfortunately, some people don't seem to get that. They think that Drizz't is so cool, and that he is so powerful, and they decide to play him. Not a character like him, but different weapons and race, etc., but Drizz't himself, or a distant relative thereof with the same story. Now, if you can get past this and look at the fact that someone wants to play Drizz't from a mechanical poiint of view, his build is awful. Fighter 10/ Ranger 5/ Barbarian 1, IIRC. The fact is, Drizz't is copied and used far too often, and what was once a pretty cool character has been turned into a taboo name. The drow were already like this, so they don't count.
Black Kitten 11-07-07, 06:45 AM	http://www.answers.com/topic/drizzt-do-urden?cat=technology This is a description of his character. Now, Drizzt is a rarity. Even more, he is so unique, the likeliness of a second like him walking the face of Faerun is next to nothing. However, he is very popular due to the stories written around him, so some people like to be like him, just like people make Leonidas, Gandalf or Aragorn look-a-likes. Because Drizzt is unique, this is often seen as a bad thing. This leads, in some groups, to a number of Drizzt clones. (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050710.html). This is rather unrealistic and annoying to some people, as it leads to hogging the spotlight and in many other ways deteriorates the game-play. Making a Drizzt character is therefore widely frowned upon. I hope that explains.
TheMonk 11-07-07, 06:48 AM	Ah yes I see now. Thank you black_kitten :) And fatalis as well :) So I guess it's the same as trying to make legolas the elf ranger. I thought as much, I just wasn't sure :)
br13 11-07-07, 07:32 AM	That and some other things I think, originality being a major factor here. When I was younger and a beginner to d&d (15-16yo), I was the type of guy who everybody has heard of here I suppose. You know, the phase when every character you create is dark, brooding, unfriendly.. That struggle for uniqueness (strange word) which turns out to be just lame. Did I ever try to play a Drizzt clone? Probably. Now I'm 23 and I love playing "normal characters". A LN bookworm mage, a NG over-zealous cleric. Nothing that stands out too much. I guess this is just another phase you go through in life. Teenagers are mostly rebels in nature and when you get older, you lean more towards stability and consistency.
Black Kitten 11-07-07, 07:35 AM	That and some other things I think, originality being a major factor here. When I was younger and a beginner to d&d (15-16yo), I was the type of guy who everybody has heard of here I suppose. You know, the phase when every character you create is dark, brooding, unfriendly.. That struggle for uniqueness (strange word) which turns out to be just lame. Did I ever try to play a Drizzt clone? Probably. Now I'm 23 and I love playing "normal characters". A LN bookworm mage, a NG over-zealous cleric. Nothing that stands out too much. I guess this is just another phase you go through in life. Teenagers are mostly rebels in nature and when you get older, you lean more towards stability and consistency. Perhaps it's that years of role-playing learns you that uniquness is found in your character, not in what you are trying to copy. Once you get further up the line in playing, copying the greatness of others withers compared to your own discovery of power. I personally learned this because people in my group made very 'illogical' and 'underpowered' characters (in my naive sense of the game), but came out to be very powerful, multifunctional characters.
Kobold_Avenger 11-07-07, 07:55 AM	A more cynical reason is that it's something people can be put down with. We all know how popular.
NightHawkFalconis 11-07-07, 11:29 AM	I dunno about the whole "clones of someone" thing... I don't really mind if a character pulls out a cliche character concept from the ol' book, as long as he does it well. It's when I get people with characters who are like, "Oh, woe is me! I am the forgotten half-second-ex-thrice-removed-bastard cousin of the great Drizzt Do'Urden! I must follow in his footsteps, blah, blah, waahhhh," when I impose some "creativity rules." But if someone wants to play a CG drow rogue/ranger/wizard/whatever, I don't really care. Also, keep in mind that, at least in the Forgotten Realms, there is a whole slew of drow devoted to good (read: Eilistraee). So the concept isn't one that is wholly unbelievable. Just six of Drizzt's long-lost relatives who all managed to escape by the skin of their teeth from Menzoberranzan >.>
Dog_O_War 11-07-07, 11:36 AM	I would like to mention the anoyance that the fan-base also provides on this subject. A story for you. A friend of mine is riding the bus. With him is a copy of one of the R.A. Salvatore books with Drizz't in it (don't remember what title). My buddy likes the character. He plays D&D as well, but would never recreate said character despite really liking the drow. Enter super-fan. Super-fan, spying my buddies' book sits close and makes a comment on how cool the series is. Not a bid deal until.... He mentions that his favorite character is Drizz't, or as he so gratingly pronounced it, "Drizzit". This is very harsh on the ears, trust me. After about the fourth time saying Drizzit, my buddy goes into that far off place people go when drowning out others on the bus. Then this guy goes on to mention that he's infact made said character in numerous online games, such as WoW and Neverwinter Nights, and how cool it is. I'm sure if asked, the super-fan probably plays D&D and has an incarnation of "Drizzit" there too. I'd never even heard of the series until then (I read dragonlance - only, ever, and nothing else. Fav. character will for ever be Kagonos). But from this tale, as well as the others we'd looked up that day online, I probably never will read it. This character is not the one to ruin the drow, but rather his legion of cheer-leaders.
Rania 11-07-07, 11:36 AM	... Now I'm 23 and I love playing "normal characters". A LN bookworm mage, a NG over-zealous cleric. Nothing that stands out too much. I guess this is just another phase you go through in life. Teenagers are mostly rebels in nature and when you get older, you lean more towards stability and consistency.My character's a rebellion against sanity! Man, I love crazy characters. And I don't mean "mental disorder" crazy, I mean "off the wall" crazy.
Rania 11-07-07, 11:40 AM	But you know what would be really fun? Make a rebel drow who narrowly escaped from where he lived, double-wielding scimitars, panther as an animal companion, hates his race, etc. His alignment? Chaotic Evil. He worships another CE deity, not Lolth; it was religious conflict, not moral, that led him to the surface.
br13 11-07-07, 01:13 PM	Well, I still play crazy characters from time to time. Back when Vampire the Masquerade was a stand-alone thing (now its just World of Darkness with werewolfs/mages/etc combined, I stopped following that system) I very much liked Malkavians for their chaotic nature. Still, something has changed. About 5-7 years ago I loved assasin types, lonely hunters, outcasts and I was always looking for a way to make my character a cripple in one way or the other. Now, my greatest love is the wizard - any type/variety. Back then, my favorite alignment was CN (or chaotic stupid to be exact), now - NG/NE. I don't care whether it's from depravity or simply a good heart as long as my hero gets to do what he believes in despite all the rules/regulations and as long as he is consistant in what he's doing =) I don't really fancy chaos that much, cause I'm all too chaotic in reality and I like to see a sense of order and devotion to their own goals in people I create. That was mostly off-topic. About Drizz't now.. All the fans mentioned by Dog_O_War is probably what drives most sane people away from that concept. And when you see for a hundreth time somebody with a CG Drow, you simply can't help it.. your mind just tells you that this person is another such annoying fan.
Salla 11-07-07, 01:26 PM	My usual problems with clone characters (in any game system or genre) is that the person creating the character often doesn't realize that his version isn't going to be as powerful as the original, doesn't have his connections, his reputation, and won't be able to do what the original character does. I suppose it could be said that I dislike clones, but don't mind an homage. I wouldn't actually stop someone from playing a Drow Ranger with (etcetc), except that I don't use animal companions, familiars and all that stuff in my games. The problem would be if he starts expecting to be able to do the things the character in the book does without game mechanics precedent. I've never read the books, but if, say, Drizzt has killed a demon with a single attack, and he expects his PC to do the same, there will be troubles. If he expects his PC to start rubbing elbows with Drizzt's buddies (especially since I don't run FR), he's going to be disappointed.
Mock26 11-07-07, 01:29 PM	I would say that it is because some people are arrogant enough to think that they're superior to those who lack the imagination to create an original character but they (the arrogant ones) are just so stupid that they have to attack others in order to try and make themselves feel superior. In other words, it boils down to immaturity.
Mercurius 11-07-07, 01:30 PM	Now, if you can get past this and look at the fact that someone wants to play Drizz't from a mechanical poiint of view, his build is awful. Fighter 10/ Ranger 5/ Barbarian 1, IIRC. Of course, he should have levels of Dervish instead of Fighter, really. And barbarian. It would make dual-wielding scimitars a lot more efficient, allow him to mechanically cleave through orcs a lot better than rage, and overall seems almost tailor made for the guy. But the Dervish didn't exist when he was statted for 3e. In general, I outgrew the "I'm going to build a character exactly like this fictional character I like" period a long time ago. I like to consider how to use the rules to build a character like I like, and I've considered doing some crazy stuff (I contemplated building a rogue/paladin aiming for vigilante in a recent Eberron game and basically building an Eberronian Batman), but I seldom really play those characters.
Prince_of_Parkness 11-07-07, 01:34 PM	But you know what would be really fun? Make a rebel drow who narrowly escaped from where he lived, double-wielding scimitars, panther as an animal companion, hates his race, etc. His alignment? Chaotic Evil. He worships another CE deity, not Lolth; it was religious conflict, not moral, that led him to the surface. Heres another one: Driz'zt kiiller! And while its not that relevant, arent drows NE?
Rania 11-07-07, 02:05 PM	Heres another one: Driz'zt killer! And while its not that relevant, aren't drows NE?No, I'm pretty sure they're CE.
Mock26 11-07-07, 02:09 PM	Glorious, cruel, beautiful, fickle, and twisted Lloth thrives on Chaos.
Salla 11-07-07, 02:15 PM	Heres another one: Driz'zt kiiller! And while its not that relevant, arent drows NE? Oh, you ever wanna tick of a FR Fanboy DM? Wait 'til he introduces Drizzt to the game. He'll get stuck between the 'everybody likes Drizzt as a player' thought and the 'nobody trusts Drizzt as a character' thought, and his head will explode when the party refuses to listen to him or let him tag along. :)
Prince_of_Parkness 11-07-07, 02:35 PM	No, I'm pretty sure they're CE. Just checked: Usually neutral evil
Voran 11-07-07, 05:23 PM	Ahh Drizzt. Good story character, find the books about him to be entertaining, as a character template/clone, I dislike him. He's not alone, over the years I've seen the various: I want to make Conan! ZOMG I want to make Raistlin! ZOMG Lestat is UBER KEWL, need stats! Plus the various "Look a new Final Fantasy game came out and there's 15 new threads asking how to build the main char" Haven't seen too much of the LotR stuff, largely because to a degree they've all already been done in previous editions, almost the iconic variants. Even the new movies didn't have as much of a forum storm of build requests, largely cause heck, I had a elf ranger dude pretty much like Pretty Boy Legolas back in college 10+ years ago. And the Aragon style ranger dude is fairly 'old hat' too. And Gandalf, I mean, that's like half the caucasian wizards in all games anyway. I think the problem stems from things like: 1)People not willing to search for the previous threads 2)People acting like they're the first one to think of it 3)just the idea that people can't come up with their own original ideas. Look, the Drizzt thing is fine, I've used that background angle a few times pre and post Driz novel stuff, I mean its almost cliche, "The loner who casts aside his upbringing to champion good, and lead by strength of character...blah blah blah." Heck, that's most Half-Orc chars that haven't gone down the Barbarian SMASH route.
Salla 11-07-07, 05:35 PM	Ahh Drizzt. Good story character, find the books about him to be entertaining, as a character template/clone, I dislike him. He's not alone, over the years I've seen the various: I want to make Conan! ZOMG I want to make Raistlin! ZOMG Lestat is UBER KEWL, need stats! Plus the various "Look a new Final Fantasy game came out and there's 15 new threads asking how to build the main char" And don't forget the unending 'how would you build (random anime character)?'.
Mindolin 11-07-07, 05:49 PM	Hey, it's not a problem with buildling the characters, it's a problem with them trying to hog the spotlight because they think that since their character is the main character of a book series, they should be the focus of the campaign. Luckily, most of the people I have don't try to hog the spot light, even if they are playing as an anime character/Link/Drizzt Do'urden. Anyway, a lot of the anime characters can be done easily, I made a level Six version of Sasuke Uchiha from the beginning of Naruto before, so it can be done at low levels.
snakeman830 11-07-07, 09:33 PM	Everyons else would build Drizzit. I would go for Ertu.:evillaugh :devil: :evillaugh :devil: :evillaugh He looks much more fun.
happy_fuzzy 11-07-07, 10:00 PM	I see it as everyone being fed up with the execption to the rule becoming the rule, or pretty much whatever all posters above said. Kind of like how warforged were originally meant to be melee characters but now their favored class might as well read: Psion.
happy_fuzzy 11-07-07, 10:02 PM	I see it as everyone being fed up with the execption to the rule becoming the rule, or pretty much whatever all posters above said. Kind of like how warforged were originally meant to be melee characters but now their favored class might as well read: Psion.
Endarrion 11-07-07, 10:03 PM	I read dragonlance - only, ever, and nothing else. Good for you my friend. On topic though, I've always wanted to read the Drizzt series, but never have. I'm too busy catching up on all my Dragonlance books. I've always wanted to try out a build based on a fictional character but never have. It's probably for the same reason I've never actually played a build based on my namesake (a character in a novel I'm writing): I know it won't be "right." I just know that, no matter what I do, no matter how perfect the class choices, feats, etc are, something will be off with the character. Not just mechanically, but in all aspects. I mean, I think it would be hard trying to come up with original Batman one-liners in conjunction to being badass all the time. And playing a half-naked spear wielding greek is just ... weird. So, while cool in concept, most characters based on fictional personalities probably just end up really stupid. There's a thread on the CO forum (I think) where people are statting out builds for comic book characters and stuff. Tempest was working on a Samus Aran (Metroid) build last I heard. Who would actually want to play a character exactly like Samus? It just sounds corny. Now, a warforged with an attached wand and boots of striding and springing...
CryoSilver 11-07-07, 10:19 PM	I had aplyer in one of my games who wanted to play as a drow ranger. I had read one of the books in the series, so I groaned inside, but let him do it anyways. His character walked up to a city with the rest of the party and was shot dead by the city watch. The player should have known that the drow were at war with the humans: it was in the campaign packet I handed out. It was in, like, the third paragraph, so even if he didn't read all 5 pages, he'd have seen it. But his need toplay Drizzt asserted itself, and gave me the opportunity to demonstrate that I do not like rip-off characters (at least pick an OBSCURE character to rip off; something I haven't read, you know?). That said, he could have ripped almost any character on TV, since I watch less than an hour of TV per day. Anyone from any show except Invader Zim, The SImpsons or Cowby Bebop, and hedhave been fine, because I'd have been clueless.
Mock26 11-07-07, 11:11 PM	I had aplyer in one of my games who wanted to play as a drow ranger. I had read one of the books in the series, so I groaned inside, but let him do it anyways. His character walked up to a city with the rest of the party and was shot dead by the city watch. The player should have known that the drow were at war with the humans: it was in the campaign packet I handed out. It was in, like, the third paragraph, so even if he didn't read all 5 pages, he'd have seen it. But his need toplay Drizzt asserted itself, and gave me the opportunity to demonstrate that I do not like rip-off characters (at least pick an OBSCURE character to rip off; something I haven't read, you know?). That said, he could have ripped almost any character on TV, since I watch less than an hour of TV per day. Anyone from any show except Invader Zim, The SImpsons or Cowby Bebop, and hedhave been fine, because I'd have been clueless. In this case you are just as much to blame as the player. As the DM you should have either actively discouraged this player from playing a drow or should have outright told him, "No." Why would you even bother to waste his time and yours by teaching him the lesson tht you don't like so-called "rip-off characters"? Why didn't you just do the mature thing and tell him "No"?
CryoSilver 11-07-07, 11:15 PM	Because a demonstration is worth a thousand explanations. Eventually this conversation gets really old: "I want to play a character based on (insert character here)!" "No." "Why not?" "Because a little originality would be nice." "But it's REAAAAAAALLY cool."
Mock26 11-07-07, 11:46 PM	Because a demonstration is worth a thousand explanations. Eventually this conversation gets really old: "I want to play a character based on (insert character here)!" "No." "Why not?" "Because a little originality would be nice." "But it's REAAAAAAALLY cool." Ahh, now I get it. Fighting fire with fire.
CryoSilver 11-08-07, 12:08 AM	Yea. I said no to about a billion characters, always rebutted by "But it's really cool!" or something similar. So instead of just letting that pattern continue, I demonstrated my stance.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-08-07, 12:21 AM	That said, he could have ripped almost any character on TV, since I watch less than an hour of TV per day. Anyone from any show except Invader Zim, The SImpsons or Cowby Bebop, and hedhave been fine, because I'd have been clueless. Mental note: Rewrite the character "Lochaber-axe Stu" for the game with Cryosilver this weekend.
Voran 11-08-07, 12:23 AM	Yea. I said no to about a billion characters, always rebutted by "But it's really cool!" or something similar. So instead of just letting that pattern continue, I demonstrated my stance. Yknow, at first I was going to side against you, given the method of "he made the char and I whacked it inside 5 minutes", but the addition of the part where you mention you've already said no a buncha times, and they still didn't get the point, swayed me over to your side. When words fail, sometimes you have to be a little 'obvious/smack the back of their head' willing. I do hope that didn't chase the player away tho.
CryoSilver 11-08-07, 12:26 AM	No, he's far too dependent to run away. It's like he's an addict, and I give him his fix of D&D, so I can smack him around a bit when I have to.
Salla 11-08-07, 02:29 AM	No, he's far too dependent to run away. It's like he's an addict, and I give him his fix of D&D, so I can smack him around a bit when I have to. "First crit's free, the rest'll cost ya."
wordserpent 11-08-07, 12:58 PM	We had the copycat character phenominon way back when I first started playing D&D in 1981. Only back then is was Conan and Rambo (with a repeating crossbow!). Our DM headed all of this off by allowing us all to play a fantasy hero from any novel we wanted. Our party included, Gilgamesh, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Merlin, Conan of Cimmeria, Beowulf and Elric (the last played by me). We got it all out of our system and basically nuked everything in our path including the demon lords and dukes of hell and even a few dieties. We then settled down to more serious characters.
CryoSilver 11-08-07, 01:12 PM	"First crit's free, the rest'll cost ya." "Is CryoSilver gonna have to choke a ****?"
Rania 11-08-07, 02:50 PM	If somebody REALLY wants to play a character like Drizzt, let them; as long as their PC is neither a drow nor a ranger. Heck, they could have a PC with Drizzt's personality and a vaguely-similar history, with a human commoner who's never been more than an hour away from his home.
Shiftkitty 11-08-07, 03:30 PM	I had to ban copyrighted characters from my game because of one player. I didn't mind my players taking these legends of movies, cartoons, and literature and esentially writing their own stories about them via the game. This one guy, however, would not play the character as depicted, he would play the character as he perceived them. Even if the character was clearly NOT a bad-ass type, because he was over-awed by the character, then the character was a bad-ass. If the character pulled off one really clever move in the movie, well, he must be a genius! And if NPCs and the other members of the party didn't respond to the character the way the other cast members in the movie/story/cartoon did, there would be no end to the whining. I finally made the ruling that no copyrighted characters would be allowed for PCs. If you wanted to make a clone, you had to do it strictly by the book. No fudging for legendary characters. Years later, that player is no longer in the circle, and it was a big gain to lose him because I've re-allowed copyrighted characters provided we all agree that the player is playing it correctly or has a good reason for his variation. (I allow historical PCs to suffer some tweaks due to resurrection.)
Amon_V 11-09-07, 03:43 AM	He has gone from being a heroic exception to the way things work to a 'New Rule'. Essentially, as Drizzt's fan base expanded into the mainstream, he's no longer so fringe as to be novel any more. Now every fanboy (and I know two myself) wants to play their own Drizzt. Although I have not had to be hard in dealing with these requests, I KNOW that they game is going to turn into a 'What would Drizzt do?' game. Besides, my campaign world is slowly extincting the drow. When they can take little refuge together and the rest of the world wants to knock out the pricks who have raided and robbed them for centuries, their numbers wear thin. Anyway, Drizzt is just too mainstream to be cool. It would be like making 'W' The low Intelligence Fighter who often switches or mispronounces words. Might be silly for the first session, but after that it grows very old.
Salla 11-09-07, 04:03 AM	He has gone from being a heroic exception to the way things work to a 'New Rule'. Essentially, as Drizzt's fan base expanded into the mainstream, he's no longer so fringe as to be novel any more. I like to call this the 'anti-cliche'. For example, in comic books, the typical strong guy is not too bright. The Hulk is dumber than a bowl of mice, and while the Thing isn't an idiot, he's not a Rhodes Scholar. Then, someone decides to do 'something different', and they make a strong guy who's pretty smart, like The Beast. A few more of those, and the Smart and Strong Guy becomes its own cliche'.
Nephlite 11-09-07, 12:04 PM	I've never read the books, but if, say, Drizzt has killed a demon with a single attack, and he expects his PC to do the same, there will be troubles. If he expects his PC to start rubbing elbows with Drizzt's buddies (especially since I don't run FR), he's going to be disappointed. Actually, it was multiple attacks as D&D uses hps not as just damage but avoidance.
Rania 11-09-07, 12:11 PM	I like to call this the 'anti-cliche'. For example, in comic books, the typical strong guy is not too bright. The Hulk is dumber than a bowl of mice, and while the Thing isn't an idiot, he's not a Rhodes Scholar. Then, someone decides to do 'something different', and they make a strong guy who's pretty smart, like The Beast. A few more of those, and the Smart and Strong Guy becomes its own cliche'.The opposite of the anti-cliche is the uber-cliche; you make it so cliche-y that it's ridiculous.
Salla 11-09-07, 01:21 PM	Actually, it was multiple attacks as D&D uses hps not as just damage but avoidance. I know, but the books aren't required to follow game mechanics. That's part of the problem. :)
Voran 11-09-07, 05:41 PM	Sometimes it can be a fun game, trying to spot the 'inspiration'. "Oooh! I know! You're trying to see if you can play Batman without me noticing!" "Oooh! Ooooh! Punisher! Am I right?" "Dude, seriously, Tommy the Green Ranger?" "Interesting, I'm not sure I've seen Starscream attempted in a DnD game before" "Hm... Captain Kirk, right?"
Salla 11-09-07, 07:39 PM	"Dude, seriously, Tommy the Green Ranger?" "Hm... Captain Kirk, right?" These two are easy to spot by the vocalizations. Tommy always says 'Aw man' and has a distinctive 'sig-KYAH!' shout when he attacks, and Kirk always ... talks ... so ... slow ... thenspeedsup. :)
Voran 11-09-07, 11:55 PM	These two are easy to spot by the vocalizations. Tommy always says 'Aw man' and has a distinctive 'sig-KYAH!' shout when he attacks, and Kirk always ... talks ... so ... slow ... thenspeedsup. :) Plus he's always banging the green chicks :)
CryoSilver 11-10-07, 01:08 AM	The trick to ripping off characters is to rip off characters that are: a: Complex enough to not be defined by one or two traits, like race or sappy origin story b: From obscure books (like The Damned Trilogy by Alan Dean Foster) or c: Totally unexpected. Every tried playing a character based on Morrie, from "Tuesdays With Morrie"? It's fun, if unusual, and no one ever guesses.
Vaeliorin 11-10-07, 01:13 AM	I'd add that it's generally not a good idea to rip off characters who are 'WTF Uber' even though there's no way that they could be according to the actual rules of the game. That's generally my biggest problem with people trying to rip off Drizz't. He does all these incredible things in the books (and rarely faces a real challenge) that aren't really possible to do with the actual rules. And given the way he's statted, just about anyone could make a character that could slaughter Drizz't with little or no trouble (seriously, 40% XP penalty? I don't know who did Drizz't's build for the FRCS but...wow)