Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pagan_Rogue 11-22-06, 01:21 PM	Would a CN druid use a party member's familiar (wizard's cat) to test out a death ward trap while the rest of her party was unable to stop her? Would this be against her class, besides being an over-all sh***y thing to do? (the cat didn't die, but she easily could have. It was a significant risk).
Witch 11-22-06, 01:23 PM	I don't see any problem. Other than not being a very nice guy.
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-22-06, 01:24 PM	No. A NE Druid, maybe. A CN Druid, no. Several reasons: 1) A Druid is supposed to be in tune with/a protector of the wild. 2) The Druid would realize that severing a powerful magical bond (familiar) between an animal and a human(oid?) would be the equivalent to severing a bond with her own Animal Companion. Long and Short, if the Druid wouldn't use her companion that way, she wouldn't use a familiar that way.
TheChilliGod 11-22-06, 01:45 PM	Well, the druid is showing disregard for life (animal life in this case, which is most likely as/more important to a druid as/than human life. Human life too, with the xp drain and everything), which is the whole thing about being Evil. I don't think that this would warrant an alignment change, assuming that it's a one-off offense, nothing bad came of it, and that the druid may plan to... I dunno, pet a puppy sometime later, but it is certainly more evil than chaotic. (Why was I about to mention a CE druid?!)
High Octane 11-22-06, 01:45 PM	Would a CN druid use a party member's familiar (wizard's cat) to test out a death ward trap while the rest of her party was unable to stop her? Would this be against her class, besides being an over-all sh***y thing to do? (the cat didn't die, but she easily could have. It was a significant risk). GET RID OF THAT PLAYER! NOW!
Toloran 11-22-06, 02:14 PM	GET RID OF THAT PLAYER! NOW! Agreed. Expecially considering the penalties that could have resulted to the wizard. That said, It might allowable and still retain druid powers with the reasoning that a familiar isn't natural (it is a magically enhanced animal. Mixing nature magic with arcane magic might be considered obscene to a druid)
DarkNick 11-22-06, 02:29 PM	I don't really have that big a problem with the druid doing that particular act. A familiar is not a natural animal,the wizard creates it. I don't think it would really go against the druid class. But it is a bloody diabolical thing to do to your party member (attacking a familiar is just like attacking a part of that character). This sort of thing generally should result in a direct response from the mage as they would probably view it as an attack on their person and react apporpriately. If that was my familiar it would be "you are going to burn mother ****er - roll initiative", or "I wait till he is sleeping then stick a fireball in his sleeping bag" Now I'm mad at this druid arrhhh
High Octane 11-22-06, 02:46 PM	Agreed. 1 more added to sig.
Haida 11-22-06, 02:58 PM	Signs of a stupid player. Tell him you don't appreciate him messing with your character and acting like he's "roleplaying." That kind of anti-party play will destroy your gaming group. Tell the DM you don't want to play in a player vs player game. Sure you could fireball him next time he's in melee with a bad guy, or smash his most valuable magic item when he's sleeping, but the game and the CR ratings are built around classes cooperating. This kind of immature gaming only causes discord and problems in a game, and will eventually lead to no one having fun anymore. Ask your DM to put a stop to it if anything like this happens again.
Neratos 11-22-06, 02:58 PM	Albeit not nice, but is not evil. A CN can put another in great danger if it keeps himself safe. As long as this isn't a reacuring trend he isn't evil, just a bastard. And a familiar is anything but natural. the druids actions are idiotic but not evil.
Bruunwald 11-22-06, 02:59 PM	You know who might have had a right to have a cow about it, though? The cat. The familiar's Intelligence depends on the wizard's level, if I am not mistaken, meaning the cat might have had the option of running away, depending on who was playing it. Familiars are technically NPCs, which in my game, means the DM controls them. I would likely have bit that druid and run off.
Gahread 11-22-06, 03:19 PM	You know who might have had a right to have a cow about it, though? The cat. Hmm. Middle of the night, while the wizard's on watch.... coup de grace!!! By the time the mage turns around, Fluffy is licking the spray from the druid's jugular off her lips.
Reversefigure4 11-22-06, 03:25 PM	Would a CN druid do it? Well, clearly they did, so that's your question answered. Alignment has little to do with it, as that sort of behaviour shouldn't be any more acceptable in game even if the Druid was Evil. Play characters that work with the party, or go elsewhere. Tell the Druid player if he's going to be like that, the character is unacceptable for party dynamics.
Serrin 11-22-06, 03:31 PM	Never heard hate the game, not the player? It's true. Sorta. You don't know anything about the game (or even if this really happened, he COULD be a druid planning on doing this to his party's wizard, and trying to determine if Bad Things will happen if he does it). We've not even been told that the druid was a PC. Yes, an attack on a familiar is pretty dirty, and would give pretty solid justification to take extreme steps against the druid. That said, I think you're jumping to hasty conclusions if you advocate getting rid of the player (if it is, in fact, a player), tell the OP that he doesn't want to play in a player vs player game (I'm sure he made up his own mind, already), brand the druid as a stupid player, and call all inter-party conflict play "immature gaming". As if there's one right way to play D&D. I personally will wait for more information.
Pagan_Rogue 11-22-06, 04:08 PM	Never heard hate the game, not the player? It's true. Sorta. You don't know anything about the game (or even if this really happened, he COULD be a druid planning on doing this to his party's wizard, and trying to determine if Bad Things will happen if he does it). We've not even been told that the druid was a PC. Yes, an attack on a familiar is pretty dirty, and would give pretty solid justification to take extreme steps against the druid. That said, I think you're jumping to hasty conclusions if you advocate getting rid of the player (if it is, in fact, a player), tell the OP that he doesn't want to play in a player vs player game (I'm sure he made up his own mind, already), brand the druid as a stupid player, and call all inter-party conflict play "immature gaming". As if there's one right way to play D&D. I personally will wait for more information. Yes, it's a real player. The rest of the party had elected to go into a room that was guarded by a death ward. Myself, the rogue, disabled it momentarily, and everyone went through except the druid who was worried about not having a way out. So there she was, stuck on the other side of all the action. She had been poisoned earlier and had cast delay poison on herself, but time was running out on the spell and our cleric was with us on the other side of the ward. We were having fun exploring the room, when we set off a trap that erased all of our short-term memory. We were having a lot of fun role-playing, trying to figure out where we were, what we were doing and what we were looking for. Then the druid says, out of the blue " I cast handle animal on the wizard's cat", rolls high, and then says she is going to use the cat to see if the ward is safe to pass. She then calls the cat over to her side, while we all sat there with our mouths hanging open. The familiar was ok because the ward is safe to pass out of, but now our wizard's familiar is stuck on the other side with our druid. The point is, she purposefully used the wizard's familiar to her own devices, to see if the ward was safe to pass through. It wasn't her familiar to mess with, it was a rude thing for a player to do to another player, and she knows better. It has less to do with if the mechanics of her actions were ok, and more to do with good game playing and ethics. We are trying to figure out what to do about the situation, because it was rather bad playing and she showed a certain reckless regard for her fellow team members. It was almost as if she did it to spite us because we decided to take up the adventure and she got left behind (by her own choice). Thanks for all the advice!
Cael 11-22-06, 04:20 PM	If she is on the other side of the death ward, I suggest a few Fireballs going her way (once Fluffy is out of the way). If they don't kill her, refuse to heal her, and let that be a consequence of idiocy. Of course, this is just me toning things down for the sake of your party. If I was the Wizard, the Druid will be facing a barrage of save or dies... :D
Righter8 11-22-06, 04:29 PM	If I were the Wiz, I'd cast Charm person on her ass (or similar line of spells) and use her to test for traps. Also, I am not aware of a spell named Handle Animal. There is a skill, but it allows you to have an animal perform a trick it knows. While coming to someone when called could be considered a trick, I suspect the wizards familiar is smarter than that. If you were reffering to Charm Animal as the spell, I would slap your DM. A familiar is not an animal, it is a magical beast and is not a viable target for that spell. Good luck
Pagan_Rogue 11-22-06, 04:52 PM	If I were the Wiz, I'd cast Charm person on her ass (or similar line of spells) and use her to test for traps. Also, I am not aware of a spell named Handle Animal. There is a skill, but it allows you to have an animal perform a trick it knows. While coming to someone when called could be considered a trick, I suspect the wizards familiar is smarter than that. If you were reffering to Charm Animal as the spell, I would slap your DM. A familiar is not an animal, it is a magical beast and is not a viable target for that spell. Good luck You've got me, I'm a rogue and know very little about spells, so I probably have the wording wrong for what she did to get the cat to come to her. Our DM is pretty darn sharp, and it isn't very often that things like that slip his attention.
Cael 11-22-06, 04:55 PM	It is probably Dominate Animal, a level 3 Druid spell. The only problem is... a Familiar is a Magical Beast... Druids have no spells that can Dominate Magical beasts...
Righter8 11-22-06, 05:16 PM	It is probably Dominate Animal, a level 3 Druid spell. The only problem is... a Familiar is a Magical Beast... Druids have no spells that can Dominate Magical beasts... Thats kinda what I was trying to point out. Anything the familiar was subjected to; spell, skill, class ability, whatever, the wizard character would have been aware of the effect it was having on the familiar. Short-term memory or not, a familiar is like a wizards pinky finger. It doesn't get a lot of respect, but you don't want it mangled. Just as a note: Not to criticize Bruunwald. He/she had said that familiars are NPCs in his game. Thats ridiculous. Familiars are a character class ability. Your DM controlling your familiar is like your DM telling you which bonus feats your Fighter or Wizard gets, or when you can use flurry of blows as a Monk.
Pagan_Rogue 11-22-06, 05:29 PM	So does the wizard play her familiar as a pc? I'm a little unsure of how the familiar is used. Could the wizard play the cat and have it retaliate on it's own for getting called away from it's master? Or is that too far fetched? Just trying to think of a way to cause a little pain to the druid without ruining the relationships of the players (any worse than what the druid did on her own, that is.) Actually, I should just butt out, since it wasn't my familiar and I wasn't the one slighted. But the druid has stepped on my toes once or twice, and I admit I'd like to see her get a little ingame slap.
Righter8 11-22-06, 06:51 PM	IMO, and as I always have seen it played, the PC has full control of their character and its class abilities, including familiars. Unless of course a situation like a mind control comes into play, and then the PC still has control of their character, they just are corraled by the DM if they exceed the bounds of the mind control. As a player, I wouldn't retaliate, regardless of what I said earlier, unless the character showed itself to be constantly posing a danger to my character and others. That said, I have played in groups where an evil character risked the party members uneccesarily, but the PLAYER was and is (i still game with him) a nice guy. In game, the party dealt with the evil character.
Cael 11-22-06, 07:08 PM	So does the wizard play her familiar as a pc? I'm a little unsure of how the familiar is used. Could the wizard play the cat and have it retaliate on it's own for getting called away from it's master? Or is that too far fetched? Just trying to think of a way to cause a little pain to the druid without ruining the relationships of the players (any worse than what the druid did on her own, that is.) Actually, I should just butt out, since it wasn't my familiar and I wasn't the one slighted. But the druid has stepped on my toes once or twice, and I admit I'd like to see her get a little ingame slap. Player should control the familiar. The only problem is that familiars tend to die quite quickly in a stand up fight. Scratching the Druid for her temerity is one thing, but if the Druid decides to fight back and whales on it, the Wizard is staring at an XP loss in the face. Better to just drop a few Phantasmal Killers on her.
DarkRhystar 11-22-06, 07:25 PM	Would a CN druid use a party member's familiar (wizard's cat) to test out a death ward trap while the rest of her party was unable to stop her? Would this be against her class, besides being an over-all sh***y thing to do? (the cat didn't die, but she easily could have. It was a significant risk). I think the better question is "How long until she starts experimenting on people?" She sounds evil and scary. Would you voluntarily travel with someone like that in real life? Perhaps the player feels that she is RPing her character's personality (new goodies... oooh instant guinea pig), but if it's making the game unfun... you should talk to the player openly about it.
TheAnthroDM 11-22-06, 07:37 PM	2) The Druid would realize that severing a powerful magical bond (familiar) between an animal and a human(oid?) would be the equivalent to severing a bond with her own Animal Companion. I agree with this, any Druid(with an Animal Companion) should realize the bond between a familiar and a wizard is equivilent, however since the character is Neutral(on the good/evil axis) it wouldn't warrent an alignment change.. so I while they could, a druid with half a brain, wouldn't. Also a familiar is made purely by the wizard, so its an unatural creature if the druid chooses to see it that way.
TheAnthroDM 11-22-06, 07:42 PM	If she is on the other side of the death ward, I suggest a few Fireballs going her way (once Fluffy is out of the way). If they don't kill her, refuse to heal her, and let that be a consequence of idiocy. Druids can heal themselves....
Pathanus 11-22-06, 07:46 PM	Ya the druid obviously chose to 'use' the cat on purpose (where was this wizard btw...). Druids can spontaneously summon fodder animals from any spell prepared :rolleyes: so why use a 'real' animal when you don't even have to.
Cael 11-22-06, 07:59 PM	Druids can heal themselves.... Only if they have it prepared ;)
Righter8 11-22-06, 08:32 PM	I agree with this, any Druid(with an Animal Companion) should realize the bond between a familiar and a wizard is equivilent, however since the character is Neutral(on the good/evil axis) it wouldn't warrent an alignment change.. so I while they could, a druid with half a brain, wouldn't. Also a familiar is made purely by the wizard, so its an unatural creature if the druid chooses to see it that way. 2 points: 1.An animal companion and familiar are not equivilent. I beleive (i'm away from my books ATM) that a druid can lose its animal companion and loses nothing other than 24 hours to find another. There is no XP lost, no 100gp lost and they don't have to wait a year and a day. 2. A familiar is summoned, not made. Minor point, but true.
_plucky 11-22-06, 09:35 PM	I would personally call it evil, but as always, one evil act doesn't make a character evil. And both points Righter8 makes are true. An animal companion != familiar (no penalties if it dies, go get a new one pretty quick), and familiars ARE real animals, they are just changed (to magical beasts) by becoming familiars (PHB p. 52). As for DMs controlling Familiars? I think it makes perfect sense for a DM to control an Animal Companion. Because of the limitations of communication between the familiar and wizard, I think it also makes for any DM who wants to run the familiar to do so. It would take a very good role-player to handle the problems communicating in game (which are briefly touched upon on p.53), but I think it could be much more interesting to have the familiar at least be somewhat unpredictable. -plucky
Radijs 11-22-06, 11:07 PM	Well, if the situation was like that. The druid was in risk of dying. Thats not something to sniff about. Its not good, its quite nasty but doesn't sound like a player intent on doing PvP stuff. The wizard can get mad over it but it sounds like a situation that should be roleplayed not shunned.
Max the Immortal 11-23-06, 02:02 AM	I see two solutions to this situation: A) If you haven't played beyond this situation, do a quick rewind-remind. Inform the DM and the druid that even if the druid could cast a spell to control a magical beast, she could use that spell slot to cast a spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally to summon a trapspringer than can be slain without repercussions (since slain summoned creatures don't actually die). Also remind the druid that a familiar has a very close bond to its master, and the wizard will interpret the action in question as a betrayal. Bearing all that in mind, give the druid another chance to decide what to do. B) If you can't/won't rewind, I suggest you roleplay the situation. The wizard should go ballistic at the druid. I don't mean go straight to spell-slinging, I mean lots and lots of yelling. Almost killing a wizard's familiar is like almost cutting one of his hands off. When the wizard realizes that the druid endangered his familiar on purpose and unnecessarily, he should be very, VERY angry. The druid's place in the party is definitely in jeopardy.
bazookanator 11-23-06, 12:19 PM	Alright, so here I am. I am the one whose kitty was lured away from her. There are several things that kept me from reacting properly. 1. I am admittedly a noob. :embarrass This is my first campaign, and I've taken over someone else's character who had to quit the game. I have been playing my character for a bit now, but I still feel a bit new to the whole D&D world. 2. I had just been blasted with something that had taken away a lot of my memory. :confused: 3. I was right in the middle of searching a desk and finding new scrolls while she did this, therefore I was completely distracted. I usually keep my kitty hidden from danger because I realize that if she dies, I am so much weaker. The druid says she didn't know it could harm my character by doing this, but I highly doubt that's the case. Everyone else in the campaign knew this! I think Pagan Rogue is correct in saying that it was meant to be a malicious retaliation for us "leaving her behind" and for having fun in this room without her, even though she was the one to refuse to enter the room. Now, the druid is the DM's GF, so attacking her with a fireball isn't probably the best way to resolve the issue. I still haven't decided what I'm going to do in our next gaming session (should I do something to her animal companion?), but I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks! :D
Shinryouga 11-23-06, 12:51 PM	DM GF? Crap, that probably (hopefully not, but probably) means the truly wounded parties are SOL and the druid gets a light slap on the wrist at worst. Now, if Im wrong, and the DM can actually NOT play favorites, then we might have something. As mentioned by all previous posts, its a team game. If the team has a rogue member, who puts other team members in danger, screws around with their possessions (familiars count, Id say), then that rogue member is likely to be booted. Just flash the example of "Would a professional sports team tolerate this?" If I came into the locker room and found that somebody else took my gear because they liked it better than their own, I'd be somewhere between bemused, irritated, and outright ticked off, depending on how they responded to my questions. And if said player later tackled me, his own teammate, on the field during game, I'd probably call time out and ask the coach to bench him. And that's assuming the coach didn't do it to begin with. One person can destroy a game, without even trying. Thats not to say that this person has their own reasons for their actions, or isn't justified in their own right, just that if left undealt with, it can ruin the game for everyone. Is the druid player one who likes the spotlight? If so, in game or out of game, or both? If the player simply needs to feel like she's a part of the group, then the rest need to make her feel like she is. It did sound like she got bored, which I can understand if the rest of the party is doing something elsewhere. That doesn't justify her action, but it does give explainable motive. Id also remind that CN is not "license to act like a bastard" anymore than LN is "license to act like a human berlin wall". Maybe remind her out of game that even CN people have friends, people they care about and tone their behaviors down around. And, you know, if you're not friends with the people you sleep around at night, you shouldn't be enemies, for your own sake. Just my two coppers.
Cael 11-23-06, 04:10 PM	DM's GF? That is definitely save-or-die territory for me... If nothing more than as a warning that she does *not* get preferrential treatment from me just because she is the DM's GF... Yeah. Had bad experiences with DM GFs before...
angryman 11-24-06, 08:04 AM	If some idiot killed my familiar, I'd likely not be a happy wizard. And if there's one class I don't want to hate me, it would be wizards. (since they can plan exactly the right spells to totally bone you) So, yeah, I'd allow the druid to kill the familiar, then I'd allow the wizard to, ahem, seek compensation.
Ateth_Istarlin 11-24-06, 08:20 AM	If some idiot killed my familiar, I'd likely not be a happy wizard. And if there's one class I don't want to hate me, it would be wizards. (since they can plan exactly the right spells to totally bone you) So, yeah, I'd allow the druid to kill the familiar, then I'd allow the wizard to, ahem, seek compensation. Ditto, that druid would be living on borrowed time if she did that to my familiar - I don't care who's GF she is!:headexplo :mage:
lord_blackfang 11-24-06, 09:12 AM	Wow, PvP against the DM's girlfriend. That should be a sight to behold. I'm the type to not react immediately but to hold a grudge, so personally I'd have the wizard bide his time until the druid was low on HP and in melee with some big nasty... then it's [your favorite AoE spell here] time. Make it look like an accident :schemes:
angryman 11-24-06, 10:15 AM	Wow, PvP against the DM's girlfriend. That should be a sight to behold. I'm the type to not react immediately but to hold a grudge, so personally I'd have the wizard bide his time until the druid was low on HP and in melee with some big nasty... then it's [your favorite AoE spell here] time. Make it look like an accident :schemes: Or, use his animal companion for "material components". Haha!
High Octane 11-24-06, 02:40 PM	It would be totally in character for the wizard to seek retribution. Stab the animal companion in its sleep until its dead, poison and challenge the druid to a duel. Load up on spells with attack rolls and reflex saves. You will probably lose but maybe you will catch the DMs attention as to how thoughtless his GF is being.
Salla 11-24-06, 05:15 PM	I'm going to add this to my list of why I never take mounts, animal companions, or familiars.
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 06:13 PM	. The rest of the party had elected to go into a room that was guarded by a death ward. Myself, the rogue, disabled it momentarily, and everyone went through except the druid who was worried about not having a way out. So there she was, stuck on the other side of all the action. She had been poisoned earlier and had cast delay poison on herself, but time was running out on the spell and our cleric was with us on the other side of the ward. My you people are judgemental. The druid was poisoned and didn't want to go into the room till it was resolved. But no you guys ignored her real plea of help and concern. To go on. Then you guys were having so much fun in this room you completely forgot(I know it was a trap but how does the druid knows this in game) about your poisoned allied in the hall dying. Hell maybe she tried to take a action to get your attention and was ignored. Yeah you guys are great at ethics and team play here. Just giving a different veiw on how the druid might have saw the situration.
Pathanus 11-24-06, 08:11 PM	Why didn't the druid spontaneously summon a Unicorn with any 4th level spell slot and have it cast Neutralize Poison on him/herself? Also Delay Poison lasts hours and Druids become immune to venoms (not all poisons but some) at lvl 9. My advice: Enervate/Energy Drain then Disintegrate after casting the 50% chance to take action Curse using the cat familiar to deal the touch attack. Mix the leftover dust into a brick you put into your wizard tower's latrine chute.
_plucky 11-24-06, 09:40 PM	My you people are judgemental. The druid was poisoned and didn't want to go into the room till it was resolved. But no you guys ignored her real plea of help and concern. To go on. Then you guys were having so much fun in this room you completely forgot(I know it was a trap but how does the druid knows this in game) about your poisoned allied in the hall dying. Hell maybe she tried to take a action to get your attention and was ignored. Yeah you guys are great at ethics and team play here. Just giving a different veiw on how the druid might have saw the situration. That's all could be very true, but it doesn't make what the druid did any less cruel. The way you have stated it doesn't make the druid any better, it just makes the rest of the party as bad as the Druid, it :) The case where 'the person not actively fooling around with the party gets forgotten' can be more of a problem In-Game than in Real-Life (where it also happens). The problem In-Game is often people just assume your character is there, even when you're not. Because of this, you lose the chance someone looks up and notices someone is actually missing (or just outside), and because of this can miss the 'Eureka' moment of 'Wait, DruidX is dying of poison in the hall, doh!' Why didn't the druid spontaneously summon a Unicorn with any 4th level spell slot and have it cast Neutralize Poison on him/herself? Also Delay Poison lasts hours and Druids become immune to venoms (not all poisons but some) at lvl 9. I don't think we know what level the party is, so that could be one big reason there. Also, I know at 6th level OUR party hasn't run into a unicorn, so summoning one of those, while legal, would be cheesy (at the very least without some sort of Knowledge (Magical Beast) check to know what one is, and that they can cast Neutralize Poison in the first place). -plucky
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 10:19 PM	That's all could be very true, but it doesn't make what the druid did any less cruel. The way you have stated it doesn't make the druid any better, it just makes the rest of the party as bad as the Druid, it :) The case where 'the person not actively fooling around with the party gets forgotten' can be more of a problem In-Game than in Real-Life (where it also happens). The problem In-Game is often people just assume your character is there, even when you're not. Because of this, you lose the chance someone looks up and notices someone is actually missing (or just outside), and because of this can miss the 'Eureka' moment of 'Wait, DruidX is dying of poison in the hall, doh!' Actualy according to the vindictive people who have posted the druid was actualy being kind. If this is the case. Again just trying to say this is impossible to judge. Especialy since we have only gotten one side of the issue. People just judge these situration too harshly. also I have encounter rude players who talk over me in the past with OOG chatter. What I do in such situration is leave it in game. You ignore me I will do something dramatic to get your attention.
Max the Immortal 11-25-06, 03:13 AM	I must re-iterate, avoid PvP violence if at all possible, especially since the druid is played by the DM's girlfriend. Have your wizard yell and scream at the druid, hold a grudge against her, or lose respect for her, but don't go straight to exchanging gouts of magical fire. Attacking the druid would be bad for the party, and bad for the game. It would also be one of the least interesting courses of action you could take.
angryman 11-25-06, 05:34 AM	I must re-iterate, avoid PvP violence if at all possible, especially since the druid is played by the DM's girlfriend. Have your wizard yell and scream at the druid, hold a grudge against her, or lose respect for her, but don't go straight to exchanging gouts of magical fire. Attacking the druid would be bad for the party, and bad for the game. It would also be one of the least interesting courses of action you could take. Then the druid's player says, "I am sorry for what I did." What now? Is she being sarcastic or is she sorry? Honestly, if one of your friends went to your house and killed your pet, you'd probably do something drastic, no?
bazookanator 11-25-06, 11:09 AM	My you people are judgemental. The druid was poisoned and didn't want to go into the room till it was resolved. But no you guys ignored her real plea of help and concern. To go on. Then you guys were having so much fun in this room you completely forgot(I know it was a trap but how does the druid knows this in game) about your poisoned allied in the hall dying. Hell maybe she tried to take a action to get your attention and was ignored. Yeah you guys are great at ethics and team play here. Just giving a different veiw on how the druid might have saw the situration. I can see how you could say that. However, she had every opportunity to join us in the room before the magical wall closed shut. She willingly decided not to follow us into the room, even though she knew that she'd be separated from the cleric who could heal her (the rest of us didn't even know she was still poisoned - at least I truly know I didn't). We had no memory of anything that had happened once we were blasted with that memory trap, and she was able to see into the room and told US that we were hit with a memory trap. I didn't know that I could even trust all of what she was saying at first because I had no clue who she was. Out of nowhere, her face turned red, she glared at me (though my character wasn't acting much different than the rest of the confused party), and said, "Here kitty, kitty," and forced my kitty to go through the magical wall. Yes, she's the DM's girlfriend, but luckily he doesn't give anyone preferential treatment. I just don't want to offend her or him personally when I possibly retaliate in some way and don't want to ruin the campaign over my reaction. Thanks again for everyone's ideas!
Pathanus 11-25-06, 12:00 PM	I don't think we know what level the party is, so that could be one big reason there. Also, I know at 6th level OUR party hasn't run into a unicorn, so summoning one of those, while legal, would be cheesy (at the very least without some sort of Knowledge (Magical Beast) check to know what one is, and that they can cast Neutralize Poison in the first place). -plucky That's all fine and good if you like to use house rules for summoning, and yes I assumed the party was of significant level when they are going up against instant death traps. My school of thought on summons is that if you have the knowledge to cast a summon spell, you know what all the options are within the context of the spell as the rules state. I don't really see the difference in summoning whatever you want just as you can create a Wall of Fire that is a straight wall or a ring, you are still casting the same spell and know what that spell can do. I was basically stating that the player with the Druid either wasn't aware of other options during the situation or chose not to use them on purpose to spite the wizard and his familiar.
_plucky 11-25-06, 05:40 PM	My school of thought on summons is that if you have the knowledge to cast a summon spell, you know what all the options are within the context of the spell as the rules state. I don't really see the difference in summoning whatever you want just as you can create a Wall of Fire that is a straight wall or a ring, you are still casting the same spell and know what that spell can do. I can see knowing all the types of animals it can summon (and I'm sure our group would play it that way, even though it seems kind of cheesy), but knowing what all a Unicorn can do just because you can summon one is right out. Also, Death effects can hit at just about any level. Our 6th level party went through one of the Stormwrack modules and met up with Ambraga, Female sea hag sorcerer 2 (CR6). She has a 3/day death gaze attack! The module as a whole has a few more hags (just without the sorcerer levels), so that's 3/day each more of those gaze death attacks in this 5th-7th level moduel. I don't know if a death TRAP would have a higher CR or not, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be any higher than multiple creatures with death-effects. -plucky
High Octane 11-25-06, 07:04 PM	Anybody else wondering why she used the wizards familiar instead of summoning ANYTHING with her own spells and using it?
johnkretzer 11-25-06, 10:59 PM	I can see how you could say that. However, she had every opportunity to join us in the room before the magical wall closed shut. She willingly decided not to follow us into the room, even though she knew that she'd be separated from the cleric who could heal her (the rest of us didn't even know she was still poisoned - at least I truly know I didn't). We had no memory of anything that had happened once we were blasted with that memory trap, and she was able to see into the room and told US that we were hit with a memory trap. I didn't know that I could even trust all of what she was saying at first because I had no clue who she was. Out of nowhere, her face turned red, she glared at me (though my character wasn't acting much different than the rest of the confused party), and said, "Here kitty, kitty," and forced my kitty to go through the magical wall. Yes, she's the DM's girlfriend, but luckily he doesn't give anyone preferential treatment. I just don't want to offend her or him personally when I possibly retaliate in some way and don't want to ruin the campaign over my reaction. Thanks again for everyone's ideas! My suggestion is do what your character would do. Role-play it out. Don't go for the overkill has most people here suggest you do. Make a scene. :) in game that is. Those are always fun and can be enjoyable for everyone.
Pathanus 11-25-06, 11:34 PM	I can see knowing all the types of animals it can summon (and I'm sure our group would play it that way, even though it seems kind of cheesy), but knowing what all a Unicorn can do just because you can summon one is right out. Also, Death effects can hit at just about any level. Our 6th level party went through one of the Stormwrack modules and met up with Ambraga, Female sea hag sorcerer 2 (CR6). She has a 3/day death gaze attack! The module as a whole has a few more hags (just without the sorcerer levels), so that's 3/day each more of those gaze death attacks in this 5th-7th level moduel. I don't know if a death TRAP would have a higher CR or not, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be any higher than multiple creatures with death-effects. -plucky Unicorns speak Common and Sylvan. An unused 4th level spell slot at the apparent lvl of the PC's is probably a reach to even use the option of summoning a Unicorn. I hope the druid repents and becomes best friends with the wiz though, for her own safety ;)
RellenMarn 11-26-06, 02:59 AM	Personally I would chalk this one up to a misunderstanding of the rules. Let the DM know that the Druid cannot effect the Wizards familiar with in the way she did, as mentioned before Familiars are magical beasts. Tell the Druids player that you feel her use of the familiar was very rude. Ask her how she would feel about you charming/dominating her animal companion. Then explain the damage loss of a familiar can cause and tell her that in game a Wizard is aware of this and (after the Wizard warns her in game) will consider any further action against his familiar as an attack upon his person which will be responded to in kind. Perhaps show the Druid's Player this thread? It will show her the depth of feeling this engenders, etc. Hope everything turns out well!
Max the Immortal 11-26-06, 03:04 AM	Then the druid's player says, "I am sorry for what I did." What now? Is she being sarcastic or is she sorry? Honestly, if one of your friends went to your house and killed your pet, you'd probably do something drastic, no? If the druid sounds sarcastic, then the wizard shouldn't forgive her. Violence is not necessary. After all, if someone killed my (hypothetical) cat, I wouldn't go so far as to attack him or her. I'd yell and scream, and our friendship would be over, but I wouldn't resort to violence. Bazookanator, if you do continue to adventure with the druid, I suggest you bear a sort of grudge. Considering that the druid didn't realize her options for tripping the trap, consider adopting the following attitude: Wizards spend years studying magic, and have a complete understanding of what their spells can do. Divine spellcasters are granted their spells by a higher power, and often don't know how to put their magic to good use. So while I (the wizard) am an expert at manipulating the supernatural, she (the druid) is just a stupid girl who prays to trees and is granted powers that she doesn't understand and doesn't deserve. Try to show her up as often as possible. Don't let her live down the fact that she almost killed your familiar. You have plenty of options (and better ones than I can think up). Please, please, please don't resort to violence.
Aegeu 11-26-06, 08:57 AM	How about just freaking out the druid instead of killing her. Kitten walks up to druid while they're asleep. Wakes up druid. Master uses ventriloquism to make the kitten say something suitably creepy, like "I'm here to settle the score" or something. Druid runs screaming. Kitten and master look innocent when the rest of the party shows up to see what the trouble is. No bloodshed, but the druid is going to be edgy around the kitten for a while.
Roland the Crownbreaker 11-26-06, 10:14 AM	It almost sounds as if the alignment is Chaotic-I-wanna-be-evil-but-not-suffer-the-consequences, I mean Chaotic Nuetral. (I'd normally be a bit kinder, but since I have yet to ever see chaotic nuetral played any other way, I tend to see this every time someone writes "CN" on a character sheet)
Another_Poet 11-26-06, 10:43 AM	My answer is two-fold. 1. Not against his class, nor necessarily evil. I have met a fair share of people who _love_ nature and accordingly feel a strong sense of disgust or pity toward pets and tamed animals. The druid may look at the animal companion as an equal and the familar as an abused servant of the wizard. Why not end its pitiful existence? It isn't natural! 2. I agree with those above. This sounds like a problem player. ap
Pagan_Rogue 11-26-06, 01:03 PM	My you people are judgemental. The druid was poisoned and didn't want to go into the room till it was resolved. But no you guys ignored her real plea of help and concern. To go on. Then you guys were having so much fun in this room you completely forgot(I know it was a trap but how does the druid knows this in game) about your poisoned allied in the hall dying. Hell maybe she tried to take a action to get your attention and was ignored. Yeah you guys are great at ethics and team play here. Just giving a different veiw on how the druid might have saw the situration. And this is a very good point. However, since I was there, I can assure this stand, if correct, would be both trivial and immature. Our party spends quite a large amount of time debating what to do in risky situations, which gets old pretty fast. I understand wanting to preserve a character instead of sending them into danger and possibly death, but it's a game and one that isn't much fun if you never take any risks. This particular character (and bazookanator will agree with me) is anti-risk taking in nearly every situation. We constantly are having to leave potential threads behind because one particular character *cough* druid *cough* doesn't want to have to roll up a new character if she dies. We were seeing a thread through instead of turning around leaving (yet again) because it seemed a little risky. Remember, the DM had put a lot of throught into this path we were taking, we knew we were after an important artifact that was most likely where we were, and what were our other choices? Run away again? Myself, being the rogue, knew that I would risk disabling the trap to get what we needed. I also knew that if we got in, the DM wouldn't trap us there so that we died. So why would we NOT go in? But no.... the druid (yet again) stays behind the action. And she makes this choice against the rest of the party often. She hangs herself out in the wind, alone without the safety of the rest of her party, and puts herself at greater risk. She had cast delay poison on herself, had several more hours left on the spell (which she could cast again, btw, with enough time to get back to a temple if she needed to. SHE made the decision to hang back away from the cleric (who is a NPC, btw) and stay behind. No sympathies from me if she died out there alone. So yes, one should always look at the other side of the story. It is important to be fair and critical of everyone's role in the party. But she made a decision, and then took it out on the wizard (who had nothing to do with it) for absolutely no reason. Yeah, we were ignoring her. Know why? We had been hit twice by a memory loss trap and were role playing the situation. We didn't know who we were ourselves, let alone each other. Why would we be paying attention to her out in the hall? She got herself in her position, no one else. If she had done it to me as the rogue, I would have put a dagger between her shoulder blades the next time it was my turn.
Cael 11-26-06, 04:51 PM	And this is a very good point. However, since I was there, I can assure this stand, if correct, would be both trivial and immature. Our party spends quite a large amount of time debating what to do in risky situations, which gets old pretty fast. I understand wanting to preserve a character instead of sending them into danger and possibly death, but it's a game and one that isn't much fun if you never take any risks. This particular character (and bazookanator will agree with me) is anti-risk taking in nearly every situation. We constantly are having to leave potential threads behind because one particular character *cough* druid *cough* doesn't want to have to roll up a new character if she dies. We were seeing a thread through instead of turning around leaving (yet again) because it seemed a little risky. Remember, the DM had put a lot of throught into this path we were taking, we knew we were after an important artifact that was most likely where we were, and what were our other choices? Run away again? Myself, being the rogue, knew that I would risk disabling the trap to get what we needed. I also knew that if we got in, the DM wouldn't trap us there so that we died. So why would we NOT go in? But no.... the druid (yet again) stays behind the action. And she makes this choice against the rest of the party often. She hangs herself out in the wind, alone without the safety of the rest of her party, and puts herself at greater risk. She had cast delay poison on herself, had several more hours left on the spell (which she could cast again, btw, with enough time to get back to a temple if she needed to. SHE made the decision to hang back away from the cleric (who is a NPC, btw) and stay behind. No sympathies from me if she died out there alone. So yes, one should always look at the other side of the story. It is important to be fair and critical of everyone's role in the party. But she made a decision, and then took it out on the wizard (who had nothing to do with it) for absolutely no reason. Yeah, we were ignoring her. Know why? We had been hit twice by a memory loss trap and were role playing the situation. We didn't know who we were ourselves, let alone each other. Why would we be paying attention to her out in the hall? She got herself in her position, no one else. If she had done it to me as the rogue, I would have put a dagger between her shoulder blades the next time it was my turn. It was pretty clear from your post from before that the Druid was in danger only because of her own actions. Colour me cold, but I refuse to pull people out of trouble if they are the ones that put themselves in there to begin with. Knowing that you are poisoned, and moving away from the only person in the party that can cure you of it is a death-by-suicide situation, IMO. I don't feel sorry for such a person. If that person keeps trying to tell everyone else that she refuses to go along with the party into danger, I would have asked real early why she is even in the party of *adventurers*. If she wants to do the hippy thing with her trees, that is fine. Go find a tree and do the hippy thing. Me? I'm here to *adventure*. It's sort of in the job description, y'know. The bit before the "rs"? I am feeling less and less sympathetic towards the Druid (not that I was really sympathetic to begin with). I say you let her die-by-cop (or in this case, die-by-very-angry-Wizard) and let that be an object lesson in why you don't try to molest a Wizard's familiar...
Thunder Dragonbane 11-26-06, 06:18 PM	Playing CN is the same as saying that you wanted CE but the GM would not let you. Having said that if I was playing that mage I would have been rather upset, and would have probably spelled the druid to death.
the_fenris_wolf 11-26-06, 07:35 PM	I think it is a out of character for a normal nature hippy c**p Druid, but i think it sounds great for an Urban druid, as Urban druids aren't that in touch with nature.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-26-06, 10:15 PM	That said, It might allowable and still retain druid powers with the reasoning that a familiar isn't natural The section on familiar clearly states that familiar's type changes to "magical beast". Having said that: yes, get rid of that player.