Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neomonk21 02-23-07, 04:32 PM	I am playing a Shapeshifting variant Druid (level 9) and want to take the Monster Manual feat Improved Natural Attack (Bite). This will take my Bite attack from 1d8 to 2d6. Everyone in my group is up in arms about me even suggesting that I am going to take it. They say that PC's, under no circumstances, can take Monster Manual feats. According to them, it says it in the book but I have yet to find it written in there. How can I convince them that it is a legal feat for my Druid? To me, the restriction of having to be in a form to benefit from the feat makes it no where near overpowered. I don't even know if that is why they oppose it.
odinsmightytoad 02-23-07, 04:35 PM	Have you taken Natural Spell yet? If not do so and see how bent out of shape they get when you can rain down spells from above in the shape of a hawk.:D
Neomonk21 02-23-07, 04:38 PM	Have you taken Natural Spell yet? If not do so and see how bent out of shape they get when you can rain down spells from above in the shape of a hawk.:D The Shapeshifter variant (from PHB2) doesn't allow Natural Spell to work when in shapeshift form. It is one of the trade-offs. The other one being that I don't get an animal companion.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 04:41 PM	Do you meet the requirements for the feat? (Yes) Does the feat fall under some overarching rule, such as having the [Monstrous] tag? (No) Is there ANY text in the monster manual that says those aren't for PCs? (No) Therefore, you are correct, and can take it. Warlocks often do the same with the meta-spell-like-ability feats. Do note that Improved Natural Attack (Bite) won't pay off in the long run with the shapeshift druid since the later forms have claws and slams, but no bites.
bonethug0108 02-23-07, 04:43 PM	Eh, I've nowhere read that it says you can't. I think this is one of the designers "DOH!" moments, in either they didn't think about the druid's wild shaping or that they just didn't want to repeat it in the phb. I think the first is what it is. That said, there is nothing stopping you other than your dm or the fact that the other players might be upset. I they think it is overpowered, do what odin said and take natural spell. That is far more powerful. Edit: I see that you can't take natural spell.
Neomonk21 02-23-07, 04:44 PM	Do note that Improved Natural Attack (Bite) won't pay off in the long run with the shapeshift druid since the later forms have claws and slams, but no bites. Thats a very good point, however, we're playing the Ravenloft campaign so my character should max out around level 10. I will never get to 12 to get the next form which has the slam attacks. Thank you for replying and giving me something to present to them before tonight's session.
Sareld 02-23-07, 04:47 PM	Well... Where does it say that MM feats are not allowed for PCs? PCs recieve skills, so why on earth wouldnt they be able to recieve MM feats? What if a four armed creature became a PC, would he have to select his way through the TWF tree twice? Because the multi weapon fighting tree is printed in the MM, and if PCs cant access them, that four armed PCs are simply incapable of using their last two appendages. How did this make sense again? I always get the multiattack feat for my druids, and Ive never had a complaint. A feat is a feat, no matter where it is printed.
DreadArchon 02-23-07, 08:57 PM	Eh, I've nowhere read that it says you can't. I think this is one of the designers "DOH!" moments, in either they didn't think about the druid's wild shaping or that they just didn't want to repeat it in the phb. If you mean "It was a mistake that they didn't put monster feats in the PHB," I somewhat agree. If you mean "It was a mistake that Druids can qualify for monster feats, maybe they just forgot to specify it as illegal," I disagree, given that taking monster feats is actually suggested (for Warlocks) in Complete Arcane.
Rerecros 02-23-07, 09:36 PM	The Eberron campaign setting treats the INA as feat for PCs.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 10:04 PM	The Eberron campaign setting treats the INA as feat for PCs. Actually, it was reprinted there because it DID get a minor mechanical change -- it got the [Shifter] tag, which has ramnifications for shifter characters. It could always be taken by PCs. But good point -- if they protest it because it's in the monster manual, point to it in the EbCS.
draco1119 02-24-07, 03:59 AM	But good point -- if they protest it because it's in the monster manual, point to it in the EbCS. Or point to the first question in the Skills & Feats Forum FAQ. "Can monks take Improved Natural Attack?" Yes. If a monk can, why not a druid?
itwasntme 02-24-07, 04:33 AM	First off a Druid cant take it becouse in his Natrual form he has no Natrual Attacks Monks fist are considerd Natrual weapons for him and thus he can get the feat becouse in his Natrual form he has Natrual weapons Your Druid cant take it becouse you dount have Natrual weapons if you where in your Natrual form To Get Feats you must meet the Reqs in your Natrual form if you can get biteing as a natrual attack (Aka half dragon or something allows it to be a natrual attack) in your Natrual form then yes you could take it Silent Spell dosnt work when you start useing Book like PHB2 and Complete Warrior and other things like that
Frugal 02-24-07, 10:27 AM	First off a Druid cant take it becouse in his Natrual form he has no Natrual Attacks ...snip... To Get Feats you must meet the Reqs in your Natrual form Care to quote a rule that says that? Everything I've read says that if you have abilities that can meet requirements then you can take the feat (or PrC) but you only get the benefits when you meet the requirements. It's no different from wearing a stat boosting magical item to meet the requirements for a feat (say DEX boosting to get the higher feats in the TWF tree). You can do it no problem but if you ever lose the effect of the item you lose the effect of the feat. Similarly, the Druid has an ability that grants him a natural attack, he can take improved natural attack but only gets the benefit while he's in a form that has a natural attack.
Thiez 02-24-07, 10:40 AM	You can use stat-boosting items to qualify for feats? Can you also use, let's say, a potion of bull's strenght to qualify for Power Attack? Ridiculous! (/me whacks the DnD rules with a stick) As DreadArchon said, Warlocks are adviced to take the Ability Focus feat from the Monster Manual. Also, note the first paragraph of Chapter 6 in the MM (page 303): This chapter provides descriptions of one skill, Control Shape, and a number of feats that are typically used only by monsters. Emphasis mine. They're there because they're useless to MOST player characters. Not because they are somehow 'reserved' for monsters.
Frugal 02-24-07, 11:05 AM	You can use stat-boosting items to qualify for feats? Can you also use, let's say, a potion of bull's strenght to qualify for Power Attack? Ridiculous! (/me whacks the DnD rules with a stick) Temporary boosts don't work, items are considered "permanent" because they're always on, but as I mentioned, if you stop meeting the requirements for the feat then you can't benefit from the feat any more (or any other feats/PrC's that require that feat).
Thiez 02-24-07, 11:26 AM	Could you point me to a page where it says so? Since my memory is telling me (don't worry, it's usually wrong) you don't get extra skillpoints for leveling while wearing a headband of intellect. It doesn't make sense to me when ability boosting items wouldn't affect skills, but they would affect feats. Then again, the rules rarely make sense.
jennibert 02-24-07, 12:55 PM	If my memory serves (also spotty, so bear with me), you can qualify for a feat with a stat boosting item, but you don't get skill points for a headband of intellect (or similar int boost). My guess for why? If you lose the item, you lose the benefit. Easy enough for the feat (now just a 16 dex? No Imp TWF for you!), but how do you decide which skill point was the extra one that needs to go away? (I mean, I guess you could designate it in advance or something, but that's something you'd have to work out with your DM....far too complicated to keep track of for a general rules set, at the least....) (BTW, I love the shapeshifter variant! It's so handy to be able to have my elf shift into his various forms whenever he wants...whether for combat, or just because he's meeting someone across the city and flying means he doesn't have to worry about traffic....)
Ventilatory_Threshold 02-24-07, 01:24 PM	Care to quote a rule that says that? He never does. I haven't ever seen him say anything true.
Krusk 02-24-07, 02:29 PM	You can take the feat by the rules. But if the other players and the dm say you cant, dont make a big deal. you cant take the feat simple as that. Take something else.
Cromag 02-24-07, 04:18 PM	You do realize it's not a very good feat, right? Bite is considered a 2handed weapon as it is your only natural attack in the first form. first form is 1d6 +str*1.5 1d6 averages 3.5 damage that would raise it to 1d8 +str*1.5 1d8 averages 4.5 damage That's using 1 feat for 1 damage /attack. That is 1/2 the effect of weapon specialization. If you never hit 12 you manage to get 3 (4 if you'r human). There are so many better feats out there it is crazy. Point this out and if your sure you want to waste a feat you should be able to get it. If they don't like it take weapon focus bite (you are proficient in bite per the druid list) then take power attack. Power attack 1 by 1 and you will gain 2 damage. OMGWTFBBQ!!111 That's 2 damage for 2 feats! Seriously them complaining is lame.
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 04:51 PM	Could you point me to a page where it says so? Since my memory is telling me (don't worry, it's usually wrong) you don't get extra skillpoints for leveling while wearing a headband of intellect. It doesn't make sense to me when ability boosting items wouldn't affect skills, but they would affect feats. Then again, the rules rarely make sense.The rules make sense more often than you think. When you change an ability, it changes for all purposes that the source of the change does not explicitly rule out. For example, the increase granted by Fox's Cunning does not give additional bonus spells or skill points, even if you find a character of high enough CL to cast a spell with a duration of 24 hours or more - because the spell says it does not give spells or skillpoints. A headband of Intellect says it gives no skillpoints, but says nothing of bonus spells. Therefore you can gain extra spells but not skillpoints - because the Headband's rules say you get no skillpoints. I'm of the opinion that a character with a Str of 12 who takes a potion of Bull's Str could qualify to take Power Attack. On the OP's question; all that is necessary is to meet the prereqs. A Wiz 5 can meet the prereqs for Flyby Attack, so long as the Fly spell is running. By the rules, he can take the feat (well, once he's taken the spell).
Cromag 02-24-07, 05:47 PM	Short term loss makes feats/abilities non useable. a Str drained fighter base 18, drained to 10 would not be able to use power attack. A sorcerer Cha drained from 18 to 9 would no longer be able to cast any spells as he is required to have 10+ spell level. A temp bonus should make feats useable as well. -Fox's cunning/eagle splendor/owls wisdom do not give spells because spells are memorized/energy channeled after 8 hours of rest. you will not have the opportunity to rest and regain spells with those temporary effects.
DreadArchon 02-24-07, 06:18 PM	I'm of the opinion that a character with a Str of 12 who takes a potion of Bull's Str could qualify to take Power Attack. Except that you have to have the prerequisite Str of 13 to take Power Attack. Now, if you do it MMO style and say "DING! You're level 6! Choose your abilities!" that could work. Generally, though, the increases from leveling are assumed to have been trained in over down times in the story, even if the DM doesn't schedule any down time (the PHB even states this explicitly). Now, I usually do schedule downtime, so that one potion of Bull's Strength wouldn't do any good for you while leveling in my game because it doesn't last six weeks. :P That said, if I had a player who wanted to arrange for a buff to be up continually for that six weeks (which would probably be expensive), then I'd let him use it as a prerequisite. Of course, with this specific example, that's pretty unlikely, but you get the idea (I hope).
wizard of Newfoundland 02-24-07, 06:29 PM	First off a Druid cant take it becouse in his Natrual form he has no Natrual Attacks Monks fist are considerd Natrual weapons for him and thus he can get the feat becouse in his Natrual form he has Natrual weapons I always assumed that just because your fist does nonlethal damage doesn't mean it isn't a "natural weapon."
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 08:28 PM	Except that you have to have the prerequisite Str of 13 to take Power Attack. Now, if you do it MMO style and say "DING! You're level 6! Choose your abilities!" that could work. Generally, though, the increases from leveling are assumed to have been trained in over down times in the story, even if the DM doesn't schedule any down time (the PHB even states this explicitly). Now, I usually do schedule downtime, so that one potion of Bull's Strength wouldn't do any good for you while leveling in my game because it doesn't last six weeks. :P Unfortunately for this argument, there is nothing in the rules that specify how long it takes to level up. Barring some sort of houserule, there is nothing beyond "You get the xp : you level up". There is no extended training period. None. You want to houserule, that's fine. I have a far less draconian one in my game, but it is a houserule.
danielinthewolvesden 02-24-07, 10:57 PM	Being as I think that the Shapeshifter variant nerfs the Druid, and there is no reason not to, then sure. Take the feat.
Tetsubo 02-25-07, 02:56 AM	I wouldn't play a Druid with the Shapeshifter variant class ability WITHOUT taking both INA (Bite) and INA (Slam). How is it unbalancing? It isn't...
draco1119 02-25-07, 03:17 AM	I always assumed that just because your fist does nonlethal damage doesn't mean it isn't a "natural weapon." It's more the question of "Why can a monk take INA if his fists are considered manufactured weapons, also?" Answer: Because they are considered both natural and manufactured, whichever is more beneficial.
Dm_Farble 02-25-07, 02:34 PM	I saw some sort of feat in some random book that states that in order to qualify for the feat you have to have access to a form with said qualities. For example, a feat that involves some sort of flying requires you to have access to a form with wings. I think it was a feat in the playing savage species book.
odinsmightytoad 02-26-07, 12:40 PM	The Shapeshifter variant (from PHB2) doesn't allow Natural Spell to work when in shapeshift form. It is one of the trade-offs. The other one being that I don't get an animal companion. I stand corrected! Thank you for pointing out my folly of not reading things before I post.:)