Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solamnic 12-04-04, 01:59 AM	A friend and myself were discussing the advantages/disadvantages of playing Druids and Wizards at say around 11th level or so...What are your opinions on playing one or the other? What are your favorite abilities?
The Man from Uncle 12-04-04, 02:55 AM	I think that the druid is underrated at pretty much every level. I'd be surprised if there would be many advocates of it here (in terms of power at least) over an 11th level wizard, but for my its all about the tree huggers. By 11th level you've got decent offensive spells (next best to the mage classes at that level), healing spells (next best to a cleric), you've got better than average melee combat abilities if you throw in shape changes too, reasonable hit points, probably below average AC (but still better than a Wizard), good skills, an animal companion (which could be anything from a melee fighter to a useful tool with wings).....the list goes on.
Cold Napalm 12-04-04, 03:19 AM	Umm druids are the second most powerful core class behind the cleric... Course the wizard is third so...nah nah hehe :) .
The Man from Uncle 12-04-04, 03:38 AM	I didn't know that was so widely accepted. I have met a good many die hard wizard fans, but very few such druid lovers. Personally i have always prefered divine magic users.
Draco Strang 12-04-04, 03:56 AM	I'd have to give it to the wizard. All he really has to do is cast "blink" and of course, mage armor, shield, blur, etc. Anything to minimize the druid's chance to hit him. Then, start hammering maximized magic missiles and empowered lightning bolts at the druid. Granted, the druid can heal, but if he's casting a heal spell then he's not doing anything to harm the wizard. The wizard would have to cast a hold animal or otiluke's sphere on the animal companion to keep it out of the fight at first, (Unless the raven wanted to rumble with the dire tiger)
Board_Rider 12-04-04, 10:58 AM	You know I like questions like these. There really are two many variables too consider on mock battles such as these. At a straight up fight I gotta go with a slight nod to the wizard because he has access to decent spells such as Tensors Transformation to equal out any melee discrepancies and most likely would have scrolls and such of some good offensive spells. Now having said that, I think that a battle like this would certainly depend on too many things. HP, Feats, who goes first, wizards spell selection..... yadayadayada
SilverFoxKnows 12-04-04, 12:33 PM	Are they they really more powerful than the wizard? Maybe. But I'm much more acquainted with the druid's abilities. In my hands the druid will be a fair threat, while I'd probably get the wizard killed. YMMV Frank p.s. There are too many variables to say objectively who is stronger. Is the battle in the woods or a city? Is the Wiz specialized and if so what school? What magic items do they have? Can the druid score a crit with a scimitar and bull's strength? Are they both human? Too many questions.
Garith Dragonborn 12-04-04, 03:24 PM	well.... wizards are used for melee, and backup. they are the best at spellcasating, with some exeptions to clerics, but I've never seen one with a dire tiger AND healing his companions. Druids are superior due to the companion and class abilities. I mean come on! a Druid could KILL a fighter, let alone a wizard with his animal companion alone! I mean a druid can have a T-Rex! a T-Rex! my fighter would **** his pants if he saw a T-rex charging towards him. of course my fighter is an elf (I am a huge elf activist but it's true that elves, except drow, have wm{wussie meters}) Druid hands down. Hey, what are you doing with that wand of fire ball?!? Noooooooo......................... :mage:
rusdrake77 12-04-04, 09:18 PM	Druid is stronger on average, but optimized Wizard (for this and only this fight) will beat him.
The Man from Uncle 12-04-04, 09:43 PM	I don't think its much of a test to ask which one would do better in a stand-up fight. Firstly, Board Rider is right, there are too many variables, but secondly and more importantly....who cares who'd win? It wouldn't go very far to proving which class was better, it would just prove which one could be best optimised for a single fight against the other. When i make a druid i tend to prepare him for a long adventure, maybe underground, maybe on a montain, maybe in a city, maybe combat, maybe a long journey; very rarely do prepare him for show-down with wizard of equal level, equal oportunities to shop and equip and equal starting funds and time. For me, a comparison like that is what powergamers get off on....but to each their own.
Vanigo 12-04-04, 09:52 PM	Straight wizard vs straight druid, I'd say druid has the edge. Their spellcasting abilities are roughly comparable (although the wizard has a significant edge in utility spells), plus druid has lots of nice class abilities and a better BAB and hit die. When you bring prestige classes into the mix, however, things get much more interesting. A wizard basically has no reason not to take a PrC, and there are some very nice ones out there. Druids, on the other hand, have quite a bit to lose. Every PrC level they take costs them class abilities, and there aren't as many that are really good for them.
RobTzu 12-05-04, 08:00 PM	The thread question is not who would win a fight, he was asking: What are your opinions on playing one or the other? What are your favorite abilities? In that vein I say the Wizard is more flexible, due to the large amount of spells available. However the druids scouting ability is undeniable. Change into a rat or a dog and be able to scout in the city almost unmolested. An eagle is a small animal, and perfect for outdoor scouting. The wizard at lvl 11 has lvl 6 spells available, and use a whole host of good lower lvl spells to help the party. Improved Invisiblity, Haste jump out at me.
Talanall 12-05-04, 08:12 PM	I've never actually played a Druid as a PC. It's on my list of things to do, though. I'm somewhat waiting for a chance to play one in a politically-orientated campaign, since a brief examination of a druid's class abilities and spell list indicates that they're inordinately good at precisely the sorts of activities that could influence a "medieval" economy on the macro scale. A druid, adept as it is at both large-scale and small-scale combat, nature-related magic, and spying, is a significant power in that sense. If a druid decides to curtail logging, mining, farming, or grazing in a region, there will be consequences. The same goes for a druid's decision to aid any such efforts. At the original poster's target level of "at or near 11th" I would have to say that I think a druid is probably much more interesting than a wizard, if only because I think that the roleplay opportunities afforded by the class's ideological underpinnings and its class abilities are not explored as often as those associated with a wizard.
Board_Rider 12-05-04, 08:28 PM	The thread question is not who would win a fight, he was asking: What are your opinions on playing one or the other? What are your favorite abilities? In that vein I say the Wizard is more flexible, due to the large amount of spells available. However the druids scouting ability is undeniable. Change into a rat or a dog and be able to scout in the city almost unmolested. An eagle is a small animal, and perfect for outdoor scouting. The wizard at lvl 11 has lvl 6 spells available, and use a whole host of good lower lvl spells to help the party. Improved Invisiblity, Haste jump out at me. :eek: By god your right! Damn I really must learn to read and pay attention. I would probably go with wizard in this case. I like the Druidic abilities but IMO the Wizard can be so versatile, in many situations, but of course it depends on a lot of factors. At 11th level...I would take Wizard.
was_fired 12-05-04, 10:31 PM	There really are too many variables: 1. Did the wizard cast freedom of movement before the fight? 2. Did the druid wildshape or does he have rapid wildshape and natural spell? 3. Can the druid's companion be used to grapple foes? 4. Is the wizard flying out of reach of the druids companion? 5. Did the wizard cast resist elements (fire) before the fight? 6. Does the druid have energy substitution? 7. Is the wizard blinking? 8. Did the druid prepare dispel magic, and if so does it hit the wizard? 9. Did the wizard prepare dimension door? ... The list goes on. In the end it comes down to which of the two is played better, and that is what balance really means.
The Man from Uncle 12-05-04, 11:53 PM	You are a funny man was_fired. I am looking forward to what moral question you posped that was no rabidly responded to yesterday. I agree with Talanall, the druid for me has a less explored personality and lot of potential. But its all about personal taste. Abilities for abilites...well...different people appreciate different things.
RobTzu 12-06-04, 12:50 AM	umm, Was_Fired did you read the original post or mine? This is not a who would win a fight question. While you are not alone in that mistake, it is pretty clear: A friend and myself were discussing the advantages/disadvantages of playing Druids and Wizards at say around 11th level or so...What are your opinions on PLAYING one or the other? What are your favorite abilities?
was_fired 12-06-04, 01:09 AM	That had largely been covered already. So if you want me to: Druid (Pro): 1. More Hitpoints due to a higher hitdice and the ability to use wildshape to go into forms with 19+ con. 2. Healing 3. Animal companion can act as a powerful tank. 4. With wildshape a druid can fight as a secondary melee combatant without much effort, or a primary combatant with the right feats and buffs. 5. Spontanious summons 6. A more powerful base defense due to immunities and higher saves. 7. No spellbook Wizard (Pro): 1. A larger array of damage types without using energy substitution. 2. Damaging spells are gained sooner. 3. More spells which harm foes without dealing damage. 4. More feats and scribe scroll is a bonus feat. 5. Larger capacity to increase your AC or make you harder to hit due to miss chances. 6. With eschew materials and spell mastery you are actually harder to disarm since most druid spells require their divine focus.
spasheridan 12-06-04, 06:14 PM	I think the druid has more flexibility. Wildshape into a polor bear or dire ape and a few buff spells and you make a decent 2nd line fighter. Good skills and a high wis so you can spot/listen well. Spells for defense, offense, and buffs. No need for those pesky spellbooks or scribing costs. Wiz has the great nukes, but as soon as you start tapping into the complete X lines the druid spell lists starts to cover all the bases as well, and you don't have to worry about getting that pesky new spell scribed into you book. As far as which one to play, go for the one that's more fun.
Solidcobra 12-09-04, 07:59 AM	2nd line fighter my butt. This is teddy, Druid extraordinare. (Enemies: :rofl: ) This is teddy, Dire ape extraordinare. (Enemies: :rofl::rofl: ) This is teddy, dire ape extraordinare, now with the GMW+spikes+brambles club of doom, and his animal companions, enlarged, of course. (Enemies: :shocked: :tantrum: , Team fighter: :banghead: ) The divine casters are EASILY the most fun and powerful classes in the game.
EvilDuck 12-09-04, 08:29 AM	There are many, many advantages to being a druid. 1- 9th-level spells. Yay! 2- Wild shape. Also yay! 3- Unlike some cleric builds, you don't have to worry about whether your DM will let you take a certain PrC*cough*Dweomercheater*cough* because Druid 20 is the best anyways! 4- Versatility. You can fight like a fighter, you get some awesome blasty spells, and a bunch of other cool crap. 5- Animal companion. Yay!
XArchangelX 12-09-04, 10:11 AM	I would have to come in strongly on the side of the Druid on this one. You can take the class straight, at 11th level you can summon creatures from the 6th level in addition to having that slot with another spell. In addition to the animal companion, the Druid can summon a Dire Bear, a Megaraptor, any Huge Elemental, an average Salamander, or 1d3 5th level creatures, or 1d4+1 lower level creatures. The Druid would simply overwhelm with sheer numbers i.e. 1d4+1 Dire wolves or unicorns or brown bears or tigers. The 11th level druid has Greater Dispel Magic, Flamestrike does 11d6 damage, and some pimped out buffing spells i.e. Mass Bull's strength for all the summoned creatures. Also, the Fireseeds spell can make some grenades that also do 11d6 damage. Also, at 11th level, the druid can wildshape into Large and Tiny creatures, which makes for some serious roleplaying versatility. I am huge fan of the Druid, in case you couldn't tell. Also, quick question, I have been reading about the Energy Substitution feat here on the boards. What book is that out of? I have Complete Warrior and Divine, Masters of the Wild (just got it last week), in addition to the PHB3.5 and I don't see it anywhere in that group.
angryman 12-09-04, 10:31 AM	Flavour wise, I dislike druids- it doesn't make sense. "I like nature. FIRE! FLAMESTRIKE! MUHAAAHAA!! I can turn into an elemental for no apparent reason!" It seems like the class was designed by a 15 year old kid who wanted everything...combine this with wild dragonscale armour...oh my. And if the GM's easily tricked, the monk's belt... However, I like wizards, they are conceptually nice and well-made. A nicely built wizard is a thing of beauty. So I'm going to say the wizard will win because he deserves to, and because I don't like druids.
ShadowDragon8685 12-09-04, 11:01 AM	I think everyone is forgetting.. Wizards are capable of casting Fly. This negates about 95% of all the druid's summoned monsters, probably negates his animal companion, and his wildshape ability. And a Flying wizard raining death down upon a druid is a truely awesome thing. :) The druid's melee becomes useless when he can't reach his target, and he's forced to fall back on trying to be a primary caster. And if our Wizard is smart, he's cast some serious energy-absorbing spells. In short: The druid is boned.
kliate 12-09-04, 11:32 AM	There really are too many variables: 1. Did the wizard cast freedom of movement before the fight? From the SRD... Freedom of Movement Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing. Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage. How would the wizard cast Freedom of Movement? 2. Did the druid wildshape or does he have rapid wildshape and natural spell? For (anything) vs. Wizard, I suggest a match with preparation, without preparation, and two matches where only one side gets to prepare (double points if the unprepared side wins). 3. Can the druid's companion be used to grapple foes? Probably - although the real question is whether the Druid's companion is any good at it. 4. Is the wizard flying out of reach of the druids companion? I would assume so, unless the Druid took a flying animal companion (and those aren't usually effective at grappling - especially in midair) 5. Did the wizard cast resist elements (fire) before the fight? See #2 6. Does the druid have energy substitution? Sounds like you've been studying Nash Equilibrium and Game Theory. Only if the Druid took it at early levels - once Wild Shape becomes available, lots of druids aren't going to be able to burn a feat on that sort of metamagic. 7. Is the wizard blinking? Assuming he has eyelids... - er, again, see #2 8. Did the druid prepare dispel magic, and if so does it hit the wizard? At 11th level, Dispel Magic is only 45% reliable (less so if the Wizard has caster level boosting items, moreso if the druid does). If he has Dispel Magic, it had better be in a CL10 wand. 9. Did the wizard prepare dimension door? Assuming the wizard did prepare dimension door, that would simply end the battle in a draw. Besides, a Druid who can locate the Wizard should be able to catch up with Tree Stride. ... The list goes on. In the end it comes down to which of the two is played better, and that is what balance really means. Indeed it does.
XArchangelX 12-09-04, 11:36 AM	I think everyone is forgetting.. Wizards are capable of casting Fly. This negates about 95% of all the druid's summoned monsters, probably negates his animal companion, and his wildshape ability. And a Flying wizard raining death down upon a druid is a truely awesome thing. :) The druid's melee becomes useless when he can't reach his target, and he's forced to fall back on trying to be a primary caster. And if our Wizard is smart, he's cast some serious energy-absorbing spells. In short: The druid is boned. Hmm, what about the summoning of the 1d3 Arrowhawks(adult), or the griffons, or Janni? And with the Natural Spell feat, mandatory at 6th level, the Druid can now wildshape into a Legendary Eagle and cast spells all day. Edit: Oh yeah, and don't forget the Huge Air Elemental.
EvilDuck 12-09-04, 03:44 PM	Flavour wise, I dislike druids- it doesn't make sense. "I like nature. FIRE! FLAMESTRIKE! MUHAAAHAA!! I can turn into an elemental for no apparent reason!" It seems like the class was designed by a 15 year old kid who wanted everything...combine this with wild dragonscale armour...oh my. And if the GM's easily tricked, the monk's belt... However, I like wizards, they are conceptually nice and well-made. A nicely built wizard is a thing of beauty. So I'm going to say the wizard will win because he deserves to, and because I don't like druids. Uh, flamestrike and the elemental shape make sense perfectly. Fire is a force of nature, and the druid would use that force to fight those who would threaten nature, and the druid can eventually transform into forces of nature, the highest of which are the elements themselves. And your basis on wizards winning is entirely opinion, having no factual basis whatsoever.
was_fired 12-09-04, 04:46 PM	Freedom of Movement How would the wizard cast Freedom of Movement? Right my bad. I forgot that wizards didn't have that. For (anything) vs. Wizard, I suggest a match with preparation, without preparation, and two matches where only one side gets to prepare (double points if the unprepared side wins). True, but there are still magic items which allow semi-preparedness such as rods of quicken spell and rings of elemental resistance. Probably - although the real question is whether the Druid's companion is any good at it. I mean does the companion have improved grab, and if it does is the wizard somehow imune to it such as from a casting of blink. Sounds like you've been studying Nash Equilibrium and Game Theory. Only if the Druid took it at early levels - once Wild Shape becomes available, lots of druids aren't going to be able to burn a feat on that sort of metamagic. Druids really only need two wildshape feats to be very effective. Natural spell and rapid wildshape. After that highten spell, energy substitution, and craft staff become very nice looking. Assuming the wizard did prepare dimension door, that would simply end the battle in a draw. Besides, a Druid who can locate the Wizard should be able to catch up with Tree Stride. I mean as a means of escaping a grapple which is one of the druid's most potent weapons. Indeed it does. We can at least agree on this. :)
abisai 12-10-04, 04:03 PM	Largely this is an opinion thread, all these scenarios are has been stated, variable. That said, my preference is the flavor of a wizard. I like the concept behind learning a new spell out of a newly found scroll. Big difference is also the wizard does not have the same responsibilities that a druid has to the environment and his/her order (usually). The big anchor is of course the spellbook and having to always secure it. Plus druids get healing and more HP. A straight battle should be interesting.... I just prefer the style of the wizard.
The Man from Uncle 12-11-04, 07:42 AM	How the devil did we move from 'discussing the advantages/disadvantages of playing Druids and Wizards at say around 11th level or so' back to who would win in a fight between a druid and a wizard? Did you gentlemen read the original post? I know was_fired did. Blimey i've never even met someone that would care about who'd win in what type of fight. Its never going to happen, so why choose a character class based on that proposition?
EvilDuck 12-11-04, 12:39 PM	Well the thread title did make it sound like a character showdown, but I still say druid. Why? - d8 hit dice and good saves means you won't be as fragile - quality spell list. Creeping cold, flame strike, fire seeds, and fire storm mean you can blast happily away, cure spells means you can heal your allies and use cure wands, you get all sorts of neat buffs for you and your- - animal companion! This thing is a boon, whether it's a wolf tripping at 1st level or a dire bear squeezing casters at 20th. - spontaneous summoning. You know those wolves and dire bears I was talking about? Let's make more! Oh, and you can also summon creatures for quick transportation, setting off traps, and other stuff - wild shape. Remember those wolves and dire bears? Now you can be one!
holyspy 12-11-04, 05:30 PM	i hate druids my freind played a druid seven times the highest level he got was 3 and thats because we got higher at 5 any way we started putting notches in sticks and drawing dead druids for each one that died :D :D :D
EvilDuck 12-11-04, 05:36 PM	i hate druids my freind played a druid seven times the highest level he got was 3 and thats because we got higher at 5 any way we started putting notches in sticks and drawing dead druids for each one that died :D :D :D Sounds like you need a new friend.
thugpoetry 12-12-04, 01:39 AM	Sounds like your friend needs a lesson in how to play an effective druid. :)
angryman 12-12-04, 09:35 AM	Uh, flamestrike and the elemental shape make sense perfectly. Fire is a force of nature, and the druid would use that force to fight those who would threaten nature, and the druid can eventually transform into forces of nature, the highest of which are the elements themselves. And your basis on wizards winning is entirely opinion, having no factual basis whatsoever. Just like Captain Planet. If only druids could turn into Spirit Elementals(tm), you'd LOVE that wouldn't you? :rolleyes: Sooooo cheeeezy. And for a guy who lives in a forest (and the classical druid does), having a spell that can cause roaring great conflagrations is a little nutty. Also, yes my OPINION that a wizard should win is entirely my OPINION. I'm glad you noticed. Do you know what "self-evident" means? Obviously not. I'm not going to give factual evidence because nobody else has any except, "In favorable situation A, character B would win." So I reiterate- the wizard would win because I like wizards.
nyysjan 12-12-04, 10:39 AM	I'd take a wizard :D but only because i like books and don't like hiking in the woods :P druids got fuzzy (or not so fuzzy) animals with them thats a plus :D
EvilDuck 12-12-04, 12:24 PM	Uh, flamestrike and the elemental shape make sense perfectly. Fire is a force of nature, and the druid would use that force to fight those who would threaten nature, and the druid can eventually transform into forces of nature, the highest of which are the elements themselves. And your basis on wizards winning is entirely opinion, having no factual basis whatsoever. Just like Captain Planet. If only druids could turn into Spirit Elementals(tm), you'd LOVE that wouldn't you? :rolleyes: Sooooo cheeeezy. And for a guy who lives in a forest (and the classical druid does), having a spell that can cause roaring great conflagrations is a little nutty. Also, yes my OPINION that a wizard should win is entirely my OPINION. I'm glad you noticed. Do you know what "self-evident" means? Obviously not. I'm not going to give factual evidence because nobody else has any except, "In favorable situation A, character B would win." So I reiterate- the wizard would win because I like wizards. Yup, just like Captain Planet without the mullet. Oh, and druids can turn into spirit elementals in epic levels (Improved Elemental Shape :D). Hey, just because a druid can start forest fires doesn't mean he will, and if he does by accident, there's always quench. And as I was saying, you supplied no reason why the wizard would win mechanic-wise.
delroland 12-12-04, 03:15 PM	Disintegrate. Back to the OP's question, why settle for one when you can do both? Play a Wiz3/Dru3/MyT5 and use all those super-cheeseball Theurgic feats from Dragon magazine.
angryman 12-12-04, 11:17 PM	Yup, just like Captain Planet without the mullet. Oh, and druids can turn into spirit elementals in epic levels (Improved Elemental Shape ). Hey, just because a druid can start forest fires doesn't mean he will, and if he does by accident, there's always quench. And as I was saying, you supplied no reason why the wizard would win mechanic-wise. Well, since you were so polite (and I was disturbed to learn that there actually IS a spirit elemental), I'll tell you why I think in an average fight, the wizard would probably have the upper hand. The druid is physically superior -great HPs, 2 useful saves, mid BAB. However this makes little (but certainly not no) difference in a magic duel. The animal companion is not to be ignored, and the druid has a great spell list. Wild shape can really give him some versatility, and combined with wild spell and wild armour, he can really go nuts. However, a wizard has better spell combos-solid fog/cloudkill, limited wish/finger of death, mind fog/dominate, otto's dance/ref spells. My favourite trick is a quickened (empowered) ray of enfeeblement, followed by waves of exhaustion. In one round, any one enemy loses up to 20 STR, 6 dex, half speed and can't charge and the enemies' minions take 6 strength and dex and half speed. And there are no saves, either. This itself might outright stop a druid. (who might not have 20+ STR). Even if he's up, he still takes a -3 to ref saves. But it comes down to initiative, really...I tend to take improved initiative and have high DEX for my wizards.
XArchangelX 12-13-04, 12:13 AM	While it may appear that having spells like Flamestrike may be counter-intuitive, the Druid isn't just about saving the trees. The Druid is about balance. Death is an integral part in keeping the natural world in balance. Sometimes there has to be a controlled burn so that new life may spring up to replace the old. In regards to the ray of enfeeblement and waves of exhaustion use, those would work fine, until the Druid wildshapes into the Legendary Ape, at lvl 13, Str 30, Dex 16, Con 16, which all replace whatever the Druid had been reduced to before he Wildshaped. Wildshaping also replaces hitpoints, which is pretty handy. Besides, even if you win the initiative battle, after your turn, the Druid can summon a max of 5 (if he's really lucky on the 1d4+1 roll) fairly powerful friends plus his companion. It would be six on one, and all the initiative in the world isn't going to help you. At any rate, it would be an interesting fight. Besides, I like to think in terms of what they can do when they are on the same team. Talk about bringing the pain! :cool: I can definately understand why you would like the wizard, it is a very powerful class, and if you know how to play it right, could hold its own in any fight.
Xarian 12-13-04, 12:18 AM	I prefer Wizard over Druid... mostly 'cause you can have just about any personality as a Wizard. It's tough, for example, to be a Druid who hates trees. Further, the Wizards' spells are more versatile than the Druid's - he gets more utility spells, more spells that just ooze power (such as time stop), more 'cool' spells (like Blink), and can do equally as well out of combat due to the afforementioned utility spells as well as more skills (due to being all intelligent-like). Plus, the idea of a master of the arcane seems so much more badass than master of trees and vines and big animals...
angryman 12-13-04, 04:47 AM	Sometimes there has to be a controlled burn so that new life may spring up to replace the old. That's exactly what I told the police, but did they listen? Nooo... In regards to the ray of enfeeblement and waves of exhaustion use, those would work fine, until the Druid wildshapes into the Legendary Ape. Unless his strength is 0, at which point he's a vegetable and the wizard could kick him to death if he really wanted. (and I've seen few druids with more than 16 strength because as you said, you can turn into a Legendary Ape, so why would you normally need strength?) Besides, even if you win the initiative battle, after your turn, the Druid can summon a max of 5 (if he's really lucky on the 1d4+1 roll) fairly powerful friends plus his companion. It would be six on one, and all the initiative in the world isn't going to help you. The wizard has almost exactly the same spell...yay! While he can't spontaneously convert, he can just keep out of their way with superior movement magics, then kill them with area effects.
ShadowDragon8685 12-13-04, 06:00 AM	Opening Round: Quickened Greater Invisibility Disintigrate the Animal Companion. You might also look into a Quickened Cat's Grace + Maximized Ennervation combo. -4 instant levels is going to put a major crimp on anyone's day, but especially on a primary spellcaster's, like a Druid's. As a bonus, Ennervation has no save, only SR. Also, if you're confident in your druid failing his fortitude save, you can try a Flesh to Stone spell, which (by my reading,) shoulden't be stopped by any sort of death ward. :)
EvilDuck 12-13-04, 07:20 AM	Yup, just like Captain Planet without the mullet. Oh, and druids can turn into spirit elementals in epic levels (Improved Elemental Shape ). Hey, just because a druid can start forest fires doesn't mean he will, and if he does by accident, there's always quench. And as I was saying, you supplied no reason why the wizard would win mechanic-wise. Well, since you were so polite (and I was disturbed to learn that there actually IS a spirit elemental), I'll tell you why I think in an average fight, the wizard would probably have the upper hand. The druid is physically superior -great HPs, 2 useful saves, mid BAB. However this makes little (but certainly not no) difference in a magic duel. The animal companion is not to be ignored, and the druid has a great spell list. Wild shape can really give him some versatility, and combined with wild spell and wild armour, he can really go nuts. However, a wizard has better spell combos-solid fog/cloudkill, limited wish/finger of death, mind fog/dominate, otto's dance/ref spells. My favourite trick is a quickened (empowered) ray of enfeeblement, followed by waves of exhaustion. In one round, any one enemy loses up to 20 STR, 6 dex, half speed and can't charge and the enemies' minions take 6 strength and dex and half speed. And there are no saves, either. This itself might outright stop a druid. (who might not have 20+ STR). Even if he's up, he still takes a -3 to ref saves. But it comes down to initiative, really...I tend to take improved initiative and have high DEX for my wizards. Thanks, and for the record, you're prolly right, a wizard would beat a druid in a straight-up duel. A wizard beats anything in a straight-up duel(oh yeah, and don't forget moment of prescience for the initiative roll). However, I don't think a straight-up duel is an accurate measure of the classes' relative power.
angryman 12-13-04, 07:33 AM	Thanks, and for the record, you're prolly right, a wizard would beat a druid in a straight-up duel. A wizard beats anything in a straight-up duel(oh yeah, and don't forget moment of prescience for the initiative roll). However, I don't think a straight-up duel is an accurate measure of the classes' relative power. True...most X vs Y class duels assume it's a gunslinger-style showdown. It's just not how it happens... You might also look into a Quickened Cat's Grace + Maximized Ennervation combo. Why the quickened cat's grace? At that level I usually have a +4 DEX item anyway. A quickened grease then a maximised enervation would be better imo...he loses 4 caster levels then falls on his butt with his horrible ref save. *teehee*
GooseOfMercy 12-13-04, 07:35 PM	Back on to the original question... I think that a Druid is much more versatile. You can be a scout, healer, entraping-spell caster, damage-spell caster, great melee combatant, infiltrate with thousand faces, and be a great hippie. I think Wizards are so dependent on their spells/spellbook that if one thing goes wrong their whole plan will fall apart. On a hour by hour or minute by minute basis, druids are more versatile and more capable while on a day by day basis wizards can prep exactly what they need for the situation and dominate. A prepared Wizard is the scarriest thing in D&D. An unprepared Wizard is simply ****.