Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Envisioned 04-01-06, 11:28 AM	Alright, my friend and I were having a discussion about which of the two core classes is the better--Druid or Wizard? Effectively, it was brought down to direct combat, and how the two would perform against each other at equal levels. We chose to eliminate factors such as how effective each class would be against the average opponent, because that usually varies from DM to DM. Anyway, his initial argument was that Wizards are more effective than Druids because they have Fireball--this is for early levels--and then Delayed Blast Fireball. He pointed out that this spell has at least a 400 ft. range, making it amount to great damage amounts for the Wizard. However, Druids get Ice Storm (as do Wizards, of course), which is a 4th level spell with no save, though it does 5d6, and this, too, gets that same 400 ft. + 40 feet per level range increment. Fireball has a Reflex save for half damage, and the maximum damage for it is 10d6, but Delayed Blast Fireball is something I just hadn't considered until he brought it up--maximum for that is 20d6. Now, Druids can make "acorn bombs" that do 20d6, as well, but those have a maximum range of 100 ft. I grant that Fireball is the better of the ranged attacks. The Druid's Wild Shape is the next subject. Of course, this is a fantastic ability, and when combined with Natural Spell it is even better, but my friend pointed out that a Quickened Hold Person (assuming that any abilities either one uses are made simultaenously) would stop this. Also, he said that a simple Polymorph spell would effectively counter the Druid's Wild Shape ability. Of course, the Wizard can cast this on the Druid and the Druid will not be able to act, but the Druid can make a Will save to negate that effect, and Wisdom is the Druid's primary ability. Now, there is Spellcraft. Spellcraft relies on Intelligence, as does the Wizard, whereas the Druid relies on Wisdom. This one, I'll admit, has me stumped. Druids also rely on the d8 for their HP, while the Wizard must rely on the d4. This can effectively mean that the Druid will have twice the HP of the Wizard. Finally, I cannot say exactly where I stand on Epic-level Druids, simply because I have neither played one nor read any Epic books about them. I do know, however, that Wizards are capable of some dynamic spells at Epic level that are, frankly, overwhelming. What are your opinions of who would win in a fight? Remember, this is assuming anything they do occurs at exactly the same time, and that neither has initiative over the other. The differences in stats will be considered only between Intelligence and Wisdom, because all the others are common, equally vital stats for the two classes (except for Strength, but that doesn't factor in). EDIT: This is a refinement of the rules due to a request to have them. TIME TO PREPARE Consider that both the Druid and the Wizard have maximum spell capacity at whatever level they both are at. Therefore, the Druid has meditated her necessary amount of time, and her animal companion is with her (not dead). The wizard's familiar is also there (again, not dead). Both are fully rested and at full health. SPELLS CAST BEFORE BATTLE None--absolutely no spell may be taken into consideration before the battle. This is based largely on impromptu fighting. EQUIPMENT Basic. Basic. Basic. Or, if you want, optimal, optimal, optimal. Considering that you give the Wizard all mithril armor, then the Druid would maximize her armor, as well, to a cost approximately equivalent. So, in other words, whatever you spend on one, you spend on the other. NOTE: This cost may be transferred over to the familiar or animal companion in case of unavailability. STATS Their stats will be considered relatively the same, except for Intell and Wis, their differing primary stats. As far as a basic format, it's hard to say (especially since this is not a specific level comparison, and rather a multi-level comparison). I'd just go with a few points higher--both will, likely, wear accessories to increase their primary stats. So, if the Wizard's initial Wisdom is 11 for a level, the Druid's would be 16 or perhaps higher. 18 is a nice place to go, as it is the highest possible number to roll for a stat (before applying racial modifiers). SPELLS PREPARED: As both can prepare whatever spells that are available at their particular levels, it will be assumed that they can cast them. There is no need to restrict the number of spells cast, because the battle is going to be pretty short (and since, at higher levels, the number of spells over the duration of one battle shouldn't matter). RACE: Both may be any race possible; whatever gives them the largest advantage. I would ask that the LA be +0, however, and that, preferably, it remains largely among the Races found in the PHB (though Frostburn races are, for the most part, fine). MULTI-CLASSING No; this should remain a comparison at core classes. FEATS Any feats may be taken from any books. It is assumed that both will take Epic Spellcasting at Epic levels so as to be able to cast the other's spells (naturally). Other than that, Eschew Materials, Natural Spell, and Nature's Bond are three feats very important to one or both classes. INITIATIVE There will be no initiative--both are acting at exactly the same time (the only way for it to be left up to the casters themselves rather than the dice rolls). HP HP will be counted as average, with a common Constitution modifier (it does not matter what this is). Thus, for whatever level it is, it will be assumed that the Druid rolled a 4.5 and the Wizard rolled a 2.5. I realize this is impossible to roll, but it will be an effective average counter. For example, at 2nd level, a Wizard would have 5 HP + his CON modifier, according to this. If, on the other hand, you were to go for optimal rolls, then that's fine, as well. Therefore, the Druid would roll all 8s and the Wizard would roll all 4s. AC As appropriate, the Armor Class will differ only depending on the armor, not on the Dex modifier, because they will have equal Dex modifiers. ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY Because it is usually a player's decision, AoO will be left out, for the most part. Both can do Defensive Casting, and it is unlikely they would incur AoO very often against each other at most levels (unless they're shapechanged or in close-quarters combat). However, if either combatant takes a "risky" move, or one that is huge and, well, perhaps a little overpowered, then AoO shall apply, because it WILL make a difference in such a case. Otherwise, I leave it to the judgment of those deciding. WILD SHAPE It shall be assumed that the Druid can Wild Shape into any animal possible, depending on her level, whether or not she comes from a temperate environment. DISTANCE APART I would like there to be two comparisons--one where they start off close enough for a Medium Range Spell to be cast, and one where they start off far enough that only a Long Range Spell could be cast. Perhaps a Short Range can also be done, though I feel that the Druid would possess an advantage in that situation. DICE ROLLS Dice Rolls will be taken as the average, most of the time. It will be assumed that, on a saving throw or such, both rollers rolled a 10.5 on the d20. This can be altered to either 10 or 11 if the change is drastic enough. The range of "average" for the d20 is rather wide, and can actually be considered to be 9-12, or, for a narrower limit, 10-11. Any of these rolls are acceptable--if the combatant would succeed their saving throw by rolling an 11 instead of a 10, then you can assume that they rolled an 11. OTHER RESTRICTIONS Anything may be used--Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Spell Compendium, or, if you wish for a more straightforward comparison, stick to the core rulebooks. LEVEL As stated, it does not matter as long as they are at the same level exactly. I hope that covers most of it.
Radijs 04-01-06, 12:07 PM	If they are going to slug it out my money is going to be on the druid. If the druid wins initiative the best thing it can do is send its animal companion to grapple the wizard and he himself will cast a spell that will render the wizard unable to cast a spell himself. But from a roleplaying perspective. Well its obvious that wizardry, good proper wizardry with the robes, the staff, the pointy hats, mercury insence and a good old fashioned Octagram is far superior to those silly superstitions mucking about in forests and talking to animals. I mean they are animals what can they possibly know? If they are going to slug it out my money is going to be on the Wizard. If the wizard wins initiative the best thing it can do is cast improved invisibility and move away. Then the next rounds its free to cast any kind of spell that will let him keep away from the druid and its animal companion. (fly is the obvious choice) And use so much magic on them they will be looking for a princess with a frog fixation. But from a roleplaying perspective. Well its obvious that good old druidic practis is far better then wizardry. No mucking about with demons and the occult. Just helping nature and everything strive. Isn't that a lot better then going about in a dress and a silly hat while your brain rots away from the mercury fumes?
Moon-Lancer 04-01-06, 12:48 PM	Well really it comes down to what level SPECIFICLY are you talking about, and Are source books allowed. But just to demonstrate what happened when My druid faces a wizard... and keep in mind this was even without his animal companion. The First round of combat, I blasted him with a spell, did some damage, the wizard made his save for half damage. Then, he blasted me with fireball, I did not make my save. What i should have done was cast energy resistance fire the very first round, it would have made things easier, but anyway. The next round I cast meld into stone. The arena was made entirely of stone because it was in a city built into a cliff. Then I the druid buffed. Energy residence, Bark skin, Embrace the wild (blind sight would have worked now, the spell was later errataed). Well after healing and buffing, my druid removed himself from the wall, and wild shaped. The wizard had cast spider climb and was high above my character, also during the druids buff session, the wizard had cast Displacement, and Mirror Image. He fell on the druid and cast Touch of Idiocy. My druid lost some spells (determend by the dm). The druid then blasted the Wizard with another spell. The wizard made his save. The wizard then did something, I forget, and then my character blasted him with produce flame. Things of note: This wizard had a level adjustment of 3. It was the spell warped template (mm3). His con was way above average, as was his reflex save. He had more hit points then a normal wizard of 3 levels higher then himself, but he had lower level spells then normal. He also had spell resistance. If I failed to break through his SR, then he could have given himself temporary hit points because of the templit. If this had been a normal wizard, The wizard probably would have fallen during the first attack. The spell I used most was sudden stalagmite from SC. Now we were playing with more then just core, but this is just one example of were the druid won. I am sure that others exist were the wizard won. Also It was a purly magic fight, so the druid couldn’t attack with his claws. It got really intense because I was running out of damage spells.
Hariman 04-01-06, 01:57 PM	The druid has a major edge in HD, Armor and the Animal Companion. A wizard has better offensive spells (Opinion only, not backed up by research.) for the most part. Whoever get the initiative will have the advantage. But I'm willing to bet that the Druid would win many a battle because the animal companion can harass the wizard while the Druid casts. Not to mention that the edge in HD is pretty much double hit points for the druid AND the wizard has to off the animal companion while at it. AND the druid gets more healing magic than the wizard. It all comes down to spell choice and initiative. But I'm leaning toward Druid. Also, consider that D&D isn't designed for one on one combat, it's designed for parties versus varying numbers and strengths of enemies.
Kresalak 04-01-06, 08:51 PM	Druids are widely regarded as the single best Core class. However, in a duel at high levels, it will ALWAYS come down to who wins initiative. So the winner is whoever takes Improved Initiative. Also, direct damage isn't very good at high levels. Comparing classes in a duel setting, especially in who can blast better, isn't a very good way to do it.
Maerdash 04-02-06, 01:08 AM	I will state at the begining that I am a biased player who loves wizards. In my opinion the wizard wins. Generally speaking wizards are able to do much more damage than their divine counterparts, not because of a lack of damaging spells on the divine casters part but because wizards usually have more meta magic feats and slightly better attack spells, (Though destruction is particularly nasty) The wizard may be taking 5d6 damage with no save when he's hit by Ice storm, but the druid is likely going to take 8d6 x1.5 damage from a empowered Scorching ray. Thats the edge I've experienced in my spell duels. It only get worse in my opinion at level 15+ when a wizard is likely to have moment of prescience prepared for the fight, +15 to initiative (My dm's have always ruled that init was an opposed ability check) gives the wizard init and all but wins the battle for him before the first spell flies. On the Animal companion. Yes they are nasty, but a wizard can still cast on the defensive (greater invis works well) to get away and buy some time to take stock of the situation. Just my humble opinion.
was_fired 04-02-06, 01:44 AM	I would give the average fight to the druid at nearly every level. The druid has 2 more hp per level on average due to using a d8 as opposed to a d4. The wizard has more offensive spells at a lower level than the druid, but at high levels druids use the same damage cap as wizards even if they have fewer spells. In a straight out fight the number of spells means very little since even a few will be enough to end it. The MAJOR edge the druid has over the wizard is as follows: 1. Death Ward (immunity to death effects, wizard's cannot cast this) 2. Fort/Will as good saves (if the wizard acts first and uses a save or die odds are it will fail since nearly all use these saves) Both sides have save or dies, but only druids can block them. Both sides have shapechange at epic levels, but druids have more base HP and a higher attack bonus. A wizard has invisibility but both sides true seeing (if 13th level or higher). If your at 7th level or higher a druid's flame strike matchs a wizard's fireball pound for pound, except it has a higher damage cap. Past level 15 the druid has fire storm, and when wizard's get their ultimate (joke) damaging spell (meteor swarm) druid's get to empower fire storm for 20d6 * 1.5 (105) vs meteor swarm's 8d6 * 4 (112). Of course at level 20 both sides should be fighting shape changed into something like a pit fiend in which case the druid has the upper hand as he has better buffs and a higher BaB.
Maerdash 04-02-06, 03:16 AM	1. Death Ward (immunity to death effects, wizard's cannot cast this) No a wizard can't cast this, thats why they need a scarab of protection :D 2. Fort/Will as good saves (if the wizard acts first and uses a save or die odds are it will fail since nearly all use these saves) Id' say 1st round time stop, use the time "stopped" to first cast otilukes resilient sphere, and second round (only sure you'll get two) cast Statue, when you come out of time stop buff until the druid manages to drop the sphere (not likely). Once your ready to fight you should come out strong with spells that allow no saving throw (Otto's Irresiatable dance is nice, Bigby's hand spells are going to severly limit mobility, and enervation and the nastier energy drain can quickly spell doom to the competition) Both sides have save or dies, but only druids can block them. Both sides have shapechange at epic levels, but druids have more base HP and a higher attack bonus. A wizard has invisibility but both sides true seeing (if 13th level or higher). If your at 7th level or higher a druid's flame strike matchs a wizard's fireball pound for pound, except it has a higher damage cap. Past level 15 the druid has fire storm, and when wizard's get their ultimate (joke) damaging spell (meteor swarm) druid's get to empower fire storm for 20d6 * 1.5 (105) vs meteor swarm's 8d6 * 4 (112). Save or dies are virtually useless in a high powered spell duel as both sides usually have something whether an item or a spell in effect that makes them worthless. And while flame strike IS a better spell pound for pound against a single target empowered maximized spells that the wizard should have deal more damage. A quickened magic missle followed by a maximized empowered scorching ray deals 17+72+21(empowered) 110 damage in a single round. It can be increased alot higher but this is really pretty pointless as we will both most likely be able to come up with counters to each others arguments Of course at level 20 both sides should be fighting shape changed into something like a pit fiend in which case the druid has the upper hand as he has better buffs and a higher BaB Wizards shouldn't fight shapechanged....Wizards should cast polymorh any object on that blade of grass to turn it into the Tarrasque then put upo a quickened otilukes resilient sphere LOL
The Simbul 04-02-06, 04:22 AM	Wizards get Wish Druids do not get Miracle The End :mage:
The Simbul 04-02-06, 04:31 AM	Better yet, just compare the Iconics for each class (18th level): Mialee: Female elf wizard 18; CR 18; Medium humanoid; HD 18d4+39; hp 84; Init +6; Spd 30 ft.; AC 30, touch 18, flat-footed 24; Base Atk +9; Grp +9; Atk +9 melee (1d6/18-20, rapier) or +16 ranged (1d8/x3, masterwork composite longbow); Full Atk +9/+4 melee (1d6/18-20, rapier) or +16/+11 ranged (1d8/x3, masterwork composite longbow); SQ elf traits, familiar benefits, spell resistance 18; AL N; SV Fort +12, Ref +16, Will +16; Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 30, Wis 13, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Appraise +13, Concentration +23, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (the planes) +31, Listen +5, Search +22, Spellcraft +33, Spot +5; Alertness, Empower Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Toughnes. Elf Traits: Mialee is immune to sleep spells and effects, and gets a +2 racial bonus to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects. She has low-light vision and familiarity with the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite), and short bow (including composite). She gains a +2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks, and when she passes within 5 feet of a secret door she can make a Search check as if she were looking for the door. Familiar Benefits: Mialee has a raven familiar. She gains the benefit of the Alertness feat whenever he is within 5 feet of her. She also gains the following benefits from her familiar. Empathic Link (Su): Mialee can communicate telepathically with her familiar at a distance of up to 1 mile. The master has the same connection to an item or a place that the familiar does. Scry on Familiar (Sp): Mialee may scry on the familiar as if casting the spell scrying once per day. Share Spells: Mialee may have any spell she casts on herself also affect her familiar if the latter is within 5 feet at the time of casting. She may also cast a spell with a target of "You" on her familiar. Touch: Mialee’s familiar can deliver touch spells for her. Wizard Spells Prepared (4/7/7/6/6/6/6/4/4/3; save DC 20 + spell level or 21 for enchantment, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation spells): 0 -- arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, read magic; 1st -- charm person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon, protection from evil, sleep; 2nd -- bull's strength, cat's grace, darkvision, resist energy (2), scorching ray, see invisibility; 3rd -- dispel magic, fireball, greater magic weapon, haste, protection from energy, suggestion; 4th -- charm monster, greater invisibility, ice storm, polymorph, stoneskin (2); 5th -- baleful polymorph, cone of cold (2), hold monster, teleport, wall of force; 6th -- chain lightning, disintegrate, greater dispel magic (2), mass suggestion, true seeing; 7th -- ethereal jaunt, finger of death, insanity, prismatic spray; 8th -- horrid wilting (2), power word stun, prismatic wall; 9th -- power word kill, time stop, wail of the banshee. Spellbook: 0 -- acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 1st -- charm person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon, protection from evil, sleep; 2nd -- bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, darkvision, daze monster, invisibility, knock, Melf's acid arrow, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web; 3rd -- clairaudience/clairvoyance, deep slumber, dispel magic, fireball, fly, greater magic weapon, haste, hold person, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, protection from energy, suggestion; 4th -- charm monster, confusion, dimension door, greater invisibility, ice storm, Otiluke's resilient sphere, polymorph, scrying, stoneskin, wall of fire; 5th -- baleful polymorph, cone of cold, dominate person, hold monster, overland flight, telekinesis, teleport, wall of force; 6th -- chain lightning, disintegrate, flesh to stone, greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, shadow walk, true seeing; 7th -- delayed blast fireball, ethereal jaunt, finger of death, forcecage, greater teleport, insanity, limited wish, power word blind, prismatic spray; 8th -- greater shout, horrid wilting, mass charm monster, polymorph any object, power word stun, prismatic wall, protection from spells, screen; 9th -- dominate monster, energy drain, etherealness, imprisonment, mass hold monster, meteor swarm, power word kill, time stop, wail of the banshee, wish. Possessions: Robe of the archmagi, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +2, +5 mithral buckler, rapier, masterwork composite longbow, 20 arrows, bracers of health +4, gloves of Dexterity +6, headband of intellect +6, bag of holding (type 1), flying carpet (5 ft. by 5 ft.), tome of clear thought +5, potion of cure serious wounds, scroll of time stop, wand of magic missiles (9th), backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, ink and pen, sack, sheets of parchment (5), spell component pouch, pearls for identify (2), stoneskin dust (6), mirror for scrying, ointment for true seeing (4), ruby dust for forcecage, spellbook, 3 sunrods, 1 day trail rations, waterskin. Mialee's Familiar: Male raven familiar; CR --; Tiny magical beast; HD 1/4 d8 (effective 18d8); hp 42; Init +2; Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 21; Base Atk +9; Grp -4; Atk +13 melee (1d2-5, claw); Full Atk +13 melee (1d2-5, claw); Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; SQ improved evasion, low-light vision, speak Elven, speak with master, spell resistance 23; AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +13; Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6. Skills and Feats: Bluff -1, Concentration +21, Escape Artist +3, Hide +10, Listen +6, Search +11, Sense Motive +3, Spot +6; Weapon Finesse. Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex save for half damage, Mialee's familiar takes no damage on a successful save and half damage on a failure. Speak with Master (Ex): Mialee's familiar can communicate with birds. Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures.Vadania: Female half-elf druid 18; CR 18; Medium humanoid; HD 18d8+54; hp 135; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 27, touch 12, flat-footed 25; Base Atk +13; Grp +15; Atk +20 melee (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar) or +20 ranged (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar); Full Atk +20/+15/+10 melee (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar) or +20/+15/+10 ranged (1d6+6/15-20, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar); SQ a thousand faces, animal companion (dire bear), elven blood, half-elf traits, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure, timeless body, trackless step, venom immunity, wild shape (Tiny to Huge animal or plant 7/day, Small to Large elemental 2/day), woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +23; Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Concentration +24, Diplomacy +1, Gather Information +1, Handle Animal +20, Knowledge (nature) +26, Listen +8, Ride +4, Search +2, Spellcraft +22, Spot +8, Survival +30; Combat Casting, Far Shot, Natural Spell, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll, Track, Weapon Focus (scimitar). A Thousand Faces (Ex): Vadania can change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in her normal form. Animal Companion: Vadania has a dire bear as an animal companion. She gains the following benefits from her companion. Link (Ex): Vadania can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action. She gains a +4 bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding her companion. Share Spells (Ex): Vadania may have any spell she casts upon herself (but not any spell-like ability she uses) also affect her animal companion as long as the latter is within 5 feet of her at the time of casting. She may also cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. Vadania and her companion can share spells even if they normally do not affect creatures of the animal type. Half-Elf Traits: Vadania is immune to magic sleep spells and effects. She has a +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects, a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks, and a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (already figured into the statistics given above). Nature Sense (Ex): Vadania gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Nature) and Survival checks (already figured into the statistics above). Resist Nature’s Lure (Ex): Vadania receives a +4 bonus on saves against the spell-like abilities of fey creatures. Timeless Body (Ex): Vadania cannot be magically aged. She still dies when her time is up. Trackless Step (Ex): Vadania leaves no trail, and cannot be tracked, unless she chooses to. Venom Immunity (Ex): Vadania is immune to all poisons. Wild Shape (Su): Vadania can assume the form of any animal of Tiny to Huge size. She can also assume the form of plant creatures of the same size range. She can assume the form of a Small to Large elemental. She can assume animal and plant forms seven times per day, and elementals twice per day. Woodland Stride (Ex): Vadania can pass through undergrowth at full movement. Druid Spells Prepared (6/7/7/7/6/5/5/4/3/2; save DC 17 + spell level): 0 -- detect magic, detect poison, know direction, light, read magic, resistance; 1st -- endure elements, entangle, magic fang (2), obscuring mist, speak with animals (2); 2nd -- barkskin (2), bear's endurance, bull's strength, delay poison, heat metal, resist energy; 3rd -- call lightning (2), greater magic fang (2), poison, protection from energy (2); 4th -- dispel magic, flame strike (2), freedom of movement, ice storm, rusting grasp; 5th -- animal growth, commune with nature, tree stride, wall of fire (2); 6th -- fire seeds, greater dispel magic, liveoak, stone tell, transport via plants; 7th -- creeping doom, fire storm, true seeing, wind walk; 8th -- finger of death, sunburst, whirlwind; 9th -- elemental swarm, storm of vengeance. Possessions: +5 hide armor, +5 heavy wooden shield, ring of protection +4, +4 keen throwing returning scimitar, belt of giant strength +4, periapt of wisdom +6, cloak of resistance +5, boots of speed, ring of feather fall, bag of tricks (rust), bag of tricks (tan), druid’s vestment, vibrant purple ioun stone (stores 3 spell levels), pink ioun stone (+2 Con), pearl of power (1st), orb of storms, pearl of power (2nd), pearl of power (3rd), pearl of power (4th), pearl of power (5th), potion of invisibility, scroll of barkskin (caster level 6th), backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, holly and mistletoe, sack, 1 day’s trail rations, waterskin. Vadania's Companion: Male dire bear animal companion; CR --; Large animal; HD 16d8+67; hp 139; Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 20; Base Atk +12; Grp +27; Atk +23 melee (2d4+11, claw); Full Atk +23 melee (2d4+11, 2 claws) and +18 melee (2d8+5, bite); Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft.; SA improved grab; SQ devotion, evasion, low-light vision, scent, tricks (attack, come, defend, guard, heel); AL N; SV Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +11; Str 33, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10. Skills and Feats: Hide -2, Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +16; Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (bite). Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Vadania's companion must hit with a claw attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Devotion (Ex): Vadania's companion receives a +4 morale bonus on saves against enchantment effects. Evasion (Ex): Against effects that allow a Reflex save for half damage, Vadania's companion takes full damage on a failed save and no damage on a successful save. Scent (Ex): Vadania’s companion can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
Kresalak 04-02-06, 02:06 PM	If you want this to turn into a "who wins in a duel?" arguement, please give some actual rules. We can argue what could be done until the sun goes down, but without rules (time to prepare, spells allowed to be cast before battle, material available, ect.) this arguement is pointless and worthless.
Moon-Lancer 04-02-06, 02:21 PM	I agree. No rules, not bases for comparison. No argument. Thus no point. I had a argument about how using any source book a druid could beat any archer. Well I posted my build but no archer build ever got posted, and yet the opposition kept saying they could do this or that but NO WAY they could have ever done any of it in a single build (it was way over wealth level), But every point i made was possible in the build i posted. soo... really just make some builds that conform to the rules, No other way really to compare. And even then it’s hard and usually doesn’t accomplish anything.
Envisioned 04-02-06, 02:40 PM	If you want this to turn into a "who wins in a duel?" arguement, please give some actual rules. We can argue what could be done until the sun goes down, but without rules (time to prepare, spells allowed to be cast before battle, material available, ect.) this arguement is pointless and worthless. Personally, I'd take the Druid because of utility value alone, but my friend is a combat-oriented type person, so that's why it became a one-on-one duel (though I still feel that the Druid would win). Rules? Fine. I'll explain that in detail here and in an "Edit" section of my initial post. I'll first cover what you wanted... TIME TO PREPARE Consider that both the Druid and the Wizard have maximum spell capacity at whatever level they both are at. Therefore, the Druid has meditated her necessary amount of time, and her animal companion is with her (not dead). The wizard's familiar is also there (again, not dead). Both are fully rested and at full health. SPELLS CAST BEFORE BATTLE None--absolutely no spell may be taken into consideration before the battle. This is based largely on impromptu fighting. EQUIPMENT Basic. Basic. Basic. Or, if you want, optimal, optimal, optimal. Considering that you give the Wizard all mithril armor, then the Druid would maximize her armor, as well, to a cost approximately equivalent. So, in other words, whatever you spend on one, you spend on the other. NOTE: This cost may be transferred over to the familiar or animal companion in case of unavailability. STATS Their stats will be considered relatively the same, except for Intell and Wis, their differing primary stats. As far as a basic format, it's hard to say (especially since this is not a specific level comparison, and rather a multi-level comparison). I'd just go with a few points higher--both will, likely, wear accessories to increase their primary stats. So, if the Wizard's initial Wisdom is 11 for a level, the Druid's would be 16 or perhaps higher. 18 is a nice place to go, as it is the highest possible number to roll for a stat (before applying racial modifiers). SPELLS PREPARED: As both can prepare whatever spells that are available at their particular levels, it will be assumed that they can cast them. There is no need to restrict the number of spells cast, because the battle is going to be pretty short (and since, at higher levels, the number of spells over the duration of one battle shouldn't matter). RACE: Both may be any race possible; whatever gives them the largest advantage. I would ask that the LA be +0, however, and that, preferably, it remains largely among the Races found in the PHB (though Frostburn races are, for the most part, fine). MULTI-CLASSING No; this should remain a comparison at core classes. FEATS Any feats may be taken from any books. It is assumed that both will take Epic Spellcasting at Epic levels so as to be able to cast the other's spells (naturally). Other than that, Eschew Materials, Natural Spell, and Nature's Bond are three feats very important to one or both classes. INITIATIVE There will be no initiative--both are acting at exactly the same time (the only way for it to be left up to the casters themselves rather than the dice rolls). HP HP will be counted as average, with a common Constitution modifier (it does not matter what this is). Thus, for whatever level it is, it will be assumed that the Druid rolled a 4.5 and the Wizard rolled a 2.5. I realize this is impossible to roll, but it will be an effective average counter. For example, at 2nd level, a Wizard would have 5 HP + his CON modifier, according to this. If, on the other hand, you were to go for optimal rolls, then that's fine, as well. Therefore, the Druid would roll all 8s and the Wizard would roll all 4s. AC As appropriate, the Armor Class will differ only depending on the armor, not on the Dex modifier, because they will have equal Dex modifiers. ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY Because it is usually a player's decision, AoO will be left out, for the most part. Both can do Defensive Casting, and it is unlikely they would incur AoO very often against each other at most levels (unless they're shapechanged or in close-quarters combat). However, if either combatant takes a "risky" move, or one that is huge and, well, perhaps a little overpowered, then AoO shall apply, because it WILL make a difference in such a case. Otherwise, I leave it to the judgment of those deciding. WILD SHAPE It shall be assumed that the Druid can Wild Shape into any animal possible, depending on her level, whether or not she comes from a temperate environment. DISTANCE APART I would like there to be two comparisons--one where they start off close enough for a Medium Range Spell to be cast, and one where they start off far enough that only a Long Range Spell could be cast. Perhaps a Short Range can also be done, though I feel that the Druid would possess an advantage in that situation. DICE ROLLS Dice Rolls will be taken as the average, most of the time. It will be assumed that, on a saving throw or such, both rollers rolled a 10.5 on the d20. This can be altered to either 10 or 11 if the change is drastic enough. The range of "average" for the d20 is rather wide, and can actually be considered to be 9-12, or, for a narrower limit, 10-11. Any of these rolls are acceptable--if the combatant would succeed their saving throw by rolling an 11 instead of a 10, then you can assume that they rolled an 11. OTHER RESTRICTIONS Anything may be used--Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Spell Compendium, or, if you wish for a more straightforward comparison, stick to the core rulebooks. LEVEL As stated, it does not matter as long as they are at the same level exactly. I hope that covers most of it.
Darko 04-02-06, 02:54 PM	I'm quite new to D&D so I don't know how to pull this off mechanics-wise, but could a wizard teleport away, summon a horde of allips, bring them back into arena and teleport away once again? Repeat as many times as necesary.
Moon-Lancer 04-02-06, 03:03 PM	if two different players are going make different builds, its important to know what level. I say 20, just because it’s max and not epic. I also think that any spell of 1 hour/ level and 1 day/level should be allowed as a pre buff, just because if they prepared a 1 hour/level spell or 1 day/level spell, then they are going to have cast the moment they wake up.
Envisioned 04-02-06, 03:10 PM	Ah, of course, LOCATION. This is to be decided....hmmm....I hadn't thought of that. Well, at any rate, I would be willing to fulfill the Druid requirement, if someone would take the Wizard? However, I am also perfectly willing to allow someone else to make the Druid (if no one else does, then I will).
Moon-Lancer 04-02-06, 04:49 PM	sure go for it. In this case i think the druid is going to be disadvantaged. Some classes work well with prep time. Like traps and whatnot. The wizard is probably better one on one attacking at the same time, becuse of quicken. However now that i think of location... It would be intresting to see how a druid would handle a wizard tower and how a wizard would handle a druid forest. Alot of the power of the druid comes from allys and preperation. Like spells that make treants and such. And what about shadow terrain? and for a wizard, what about his undead army? definitly things to consider. Now if we are talking 1 druid+companion and 1 wizard walk along the road, and see each other, and attack and who is left standing? that really cant happen in d&d and inititaive has to become a factor, becuse what about time stop. If the wizard casts time stop and the druid attacks, what happens? they are happening at the same time so does the druid pull off his attack and the wizard time stops after the attack or before? D&d doesent work with things like that. so initive must take place. If thats the case and initivie is all that counts, well the druid can wildshape all day, then lets assume he is in legondary eagle form. Thats a +10 initive. If the wizard cannot have a prebuff that can meet that, then the druid will win most of the initive counts and thus win. really i think haveing a druid and wizard pick a time and place really works better. I say give them 1 nights rest before the fight, so they can prep with spells the night before then rest, and get new spells the next day and lets say they fight 7 hours later. Other then that i really dont know how to evalute a fight.
sneak_Blast 04-02-06, 05:47 PM	You would have to do a scenario where the druid won initiative AND the wizard won initiative. I will propose rules for the people who are making druids and/or wizards. These are just an example of what could be done. There are, of course, a nearly infinite number of possibilities. Here I go: Stats: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 -This allows a full spectrum of ability bonuses. Put whatever score into whatever ability you desire. Level: 20 -Both characters have reached their full potential at this point. It is also somewhat standard for BAB, saves, etc. Preperation Time: 1 day -This will allow for any spells that a caster wishes to cast, be cast. Also, when the characters start, they have just prepared spells. Items: 760,000 gp -Both characters should have only standard items listed in the DMG with a total gold value of the above amount Terrain: A field stretching an infinite distance. -I know that this will rarely be the case, but for the purposes of the duel, it is not bad. Other than that, make the druid/wizard according to Envisioned's description. I can playtest some if anyone wants me to do so.
Envisioned 04-02-06, 07:18 PM	sure go for it. In this case i think the druid is going to be disadvantaged. Some classes work well with prep time. Like traps and whatnot. The wizard is probably better one on one attacking at the same time, becuse of quicken. However now that i think of location... It would be intresting to see how a druid would handle a wizard tower and how a wizard would handle a druid forest. Alot of the power of the druid comes from allys and preperation. Like spells that make treants and such. And what about shadow terrain? and for a wizard, what about his undead army? definitly things to consider. Now if we are talking 1 druid+companion and 1 wizard walk along the road, and see each other, and attack and who is left standing? that really cant happen in d&d and inititaive has to become a factor, becuse what about time stop. If the wizard casts time stop and the druid attacks, what happens? they are happening at the same time so does the druid pull off his attack and the wizard time stops after the attack or before? D&d doesent work with things like that. so initive must take place. If thats the case and initivie is all that counts, well the druid can wildshape all day, then lets assume he is in legondary eagle form. Thats a +10 initive. If the wizard cannot have a prebuff that can meet that, then the druid will win most of the initive counts and thus win. really i think haveing a druid and wizard pick a time and place really works better. I say give them 1 nights rest before the fight, so they can prep with spells the night before then rest, and get new spells the next day and lets say they fight 7 hours later. Other then that i really dont know how to evalute a fight. I'm willing to toy around. Anyone interested in either the Druid and/or the Wizard? You would have to do a scenario where the druid won initiative AND the wizard won initiative. I will propose rules for the people who are making druids and/or wizards. These are just an example of what could be done. There are, of course, a nearly infinite number of possibilities. Here I go: Stats: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 -This allows a full spectrum of ability bonuses. Put whatever score into whatever ability you desire. Level: 20 -Both characters have reached their full potential at this point. It is also somewhat standard for BAB, saves, etc. Preperation Time: 1 day -This will allow for any spells that a caster wishes to cast, be cast. Also, when the characters start, they have just prepared spells. Items: 760,000 gp -Both characters should have only standard items listed in the DMG with a total gold value of the above amount Terrain: A field stretching an infinite distance. -I know that this will rarely be the case, but for the purposes of the duel, it is not bad. Other than that, make the druid/wizard according to Envisioned's description. I can playtest some if anyone wants me to do so. As far as the stats, they should have the exact same stas in the same categories (except for Intell and Wis), or we throw in another variable. Might I propose 18 PRIMARY ABILITY 16 CON 14 DEX 12 NON-PRIMARY ABILITY 10 STR (for carrying capacity) 8 CHA
Delfedd 04-02-06, 07:31 PM	Er... several words. Elemental shape: Fire elemental. This negates the fireball. Of course, if it's a clever wizard, he'll realize this weakness and take another spell. But then the druid'll just use a different elemental wild shape
Elimelech 04-02-06, 08:30 PM	I think in a one-to-one kind of duel a druid probably wins most of times. Reasons: better saves, base attack, hps, can heal himself. In fact, in a battle such as this, the one who wins the initiative has 99% of chance to win the fight ( my guess) But the real thing is, this kind of battle would never happens in a real game... so, it would say nothing about the issue.
Moon-Lancer 04-02-06, 10:51 PM	darn it. I had a really good vop druid build laying around (in a old forum). It was a fourm about how a order of the bow initiate could beat a druid or something like that. So i will post the tactics i used in that build but not the build as I dont have it, or time to remake it. If anyone wants to make a build out of it, fine by me. semi build Feats. exalted wildshape, dragon wildshape, vop, intuitive strike, green bound summoning (if allowed) Spells the day before. Shadow Terrain, Spell Staff, any other day/level spell *edit* live oak spells cast the day of. 5 energy immunities resistance 2 or 3 phantom stags (spys of the forest) 2 or 3 scry’s death ward storm rage personally though, I want the wizard to win so I can play my overpowered druid in peace.
sneak_Blast 04-03-06, 01:59 AM	For the wizards, power word stun. Once the druid is down to at least 150 hp, use a PWS and Coup de grace him ten times over. A power word blind works for 200 hp or less and will prevent him from using targeting spells. Battle will be auto over when druid reaches 100 hp. Power word kill.
runestar 04-03-06, 02:14 AM	My money's on the wizard, as he is more likely to win initiative(skittish nerves). :D Whoever wins initiative effectively wins... ;)
Balor von Balorvitch 04-03-06, 12:04 PM	Both have anti magic field and both are almost crippled by it. The difference is 2 fold A: A wizard has to make up his spells before hand, sure their are spells that get around ant magic field but is unlikely to have picked them. B: The druids animal along with limited armor and weapons can chase down the wizard. So thus i think the druid could put up an anti magic field even 2nd and still pull off a victory.
lycanthrope0 04-13-06, 12:45 PM	okay you alf to have init or you cant do this (to the OP) and i have one word for the druid winning almost everytime Miasma if all source books from WoTC is alloud no save hold your breath for minutes per level or die and a wizard cant counter it. the easy way to do this is shape into an air elemental and cast ( incase of spell turning ) cast again and again till he runs out of turning. or the druid can just shape into a large cat and pounce leaving the wizard more than likly dead from damage my 2 cents