Druid Wildshape + Feral Template? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Druid Wildshape + Feral Template? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maliseth Tyranis
03-28-05, 08:25 AM If you are a Druid with the Feral template and use your Wildshape ability, do you retain the Feral template in your animal form?
MrkGrismer
03-28-05, 10:31 AM No.

Wildshape is as polymorph (except as noted), which functions as Alter Self (excpet as noted under polymorph) and:

You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
Maliseth Tyranis
03-28-05, 11:27 AM No.

Wildshape is as polymorph (except as noted), which functions as Alter Self (excpet as noted under polymorph) and:

Well, it says you can't take the form of a creature with a template but my question was do you retain any templates of your own or do you lose them once changing?
Thorak
03-28-05, 11:47 AM Well, it says you can't take the form of a creature with a template but my question was do you retain any templates of your own or do you lose them once changing?
Of course not. You're changing your shape. Why would you retain part of your shape when you're completely changing it?
MrkGrismer
03-28-05, 12:37 PM You keep the abilites that you would otherwise keep, and loose the abilities you would otherwise loose.

You gain the Strength, Dex, and Con scores of the form, but retain the Druid's Int, Wis and Cha. You gain all extraordinary special attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities, or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived by class levels, but you loose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels (such as those from race or templates). You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. This includes natural size (as limited by Wildshape), mundane movement capabilities (with flight limited to 120 feet and a limit of 60 feet for non-flying), nautural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonsus, racial bonus feats and any gross physical qualities.

As far as the template goes, any modification it makes to something that you keep the same when changing, stays, any modification it makes to something that is overridden by the change is still overridden by the change. Generally speaking, anything that is physical in nature is going to be overridden by the new physical form, while anything that is mental in nature is going to be retained.
Maliseth Tyranis
03-28-05, 02:26 PM You keep the abilites that you would otherwise keep, and loose the abilities you would otherwise loose.

You gain the Strength, Dex, and Con scores of the form, but retain the Druid's Int, Wis and Cha. You gain all extraordinary special attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities, or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived by class levels, but you loose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels (such as those from race or templates). You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. This includes natural size (as limited by Wildshape), mundane movement capabilities (with flight limited to 120 feet and a limit of 60 feet for non-flying), nautural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonsus, racial bonus feats and any gross physical qualities.

As far as the template goes, any modification it makes to something that you keep the same when changing, stays, any modification it makes to something that is overridden by the change is still overridden by the change. Generally speaking, anything that is physical in nature is going to be overridden by the new physical form, while anything that is mental in nature is going to be retained.

Thank you, someone with an informative reply instead of...

Of course not. You're changing your shape. Why would you retain part of your shape when you're completely changing it?

If I knew why, I wouldn't have posted this.
MrkGrismer
03-28-05, 04:38 PM No prob.

I think sometimes somepeople (not necessarily Thorak, grumpy as he can be;)) see the word template and it triggers their +3 Reactionary Kneejerk.

:D :D
BW0222
03-28-05, 07:31 PM Yes.

A vampire can't polymorph into a bat to avoid being destroyed by sunlight, a werewolf altering form into a wolf doesn't loose DR/silver, a pixie druid could wildshape into an eagle and still to invisible and have DR/cold iron, etc.
Thorak
03-28-05, 09:06 PM Yes.

A vampire can't polymorph into a bat to avoid being destroyed by sunlight, a werewolf altering form into a wolf doesn't loose DR/silver, a pixie druid could wildshape into an eagle and still to invisible and have DR/cold iron, etc.
From Alter Self , page 197 of the PHB, upon which Polymorph and thus Wildshape is based;
"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."

The important part being that all Ex attacks/qualities derived from the form, which includes templates, and all Su or Sp ones requiring a body part you now lack, you lose when changing shape.

Some DR you keep, if it's Su, and some you lose, if it's Ex. And so far as I know, Feral is an entirely natural template, no Su or Sp abilities. Ergo, you don't retain any of it.

And, specifically, BWO222 is incorrect when he says a Lycanthrope retains it's DR. Lycanthrope DR is Ex, and is thus lost when changed into a non-lycanthropic form. Of course, it retains it's shapechanging ability, since that's Su, and it'll only last until next round, but turning a werewolf into a chicken and then whacking it while it's DR is gone is a valid tactic. Pixies I am unsure of, since their DR isn't classified as either. DM call.

If I come off grumpy, it's because the answer's right there in Alter Self, in black and white. I can understand if the rules are confusing, but the rules are very clear with regard to this specific question.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maliseth Tyranis 03-28-05, 08:25 AM	If you are a Druid with the Feral template and use your Wildshape ability, do you retain the Feral template in your animal form?
MrkGrismer 03-28-05, 10:31 AM	No. Wildshape is as polymorph (except as noted), which functions as Alter Self (excpet as noted under polymorph) and: You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
Maliseth Tyranis 03-28-05, 11:27 AM	No. Wildshape is as polymorph (except as noted), which functions as Alter Self (excpet as noted under polymorph) and: Well, it says you can't take the form of a creature with a template but my question was do you retain any templates of your own or do you lose them once changing?
Thorak 03-28-05, 11:47 AM	Well, it says you can't take the form of a creature with a template but my question was do you retain any templates of your own or do you lose them once changing? Of course not. You're changing your shape. Why would you retain part of your shape when you're completely changing it?
MrkGrismer 03-28-05, 12:37 PM	You keep the abilites that you would otherwise keep, and loose the abilities you would otherwise loose. You gain the Strength, Dex, and Con scores of the form, but retain the Druid's Int, Wis and Cha. You gain all extraordinary special attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities, or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived by class levels, but you loose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels (such as those from race or templates). You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. This includes natural size (as limited by Wildshape), mundane movement capabilities (with flight limited to 120 feet and a limit of 60 feet for non-flying), nautural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonsus, racial bonus feats and any gross physical qualities. As far as the template goes, any modification it makes to something that you keep the same when changing, stays, any modification it makes to something that is overridden by the change is still overridden by the change. Generally speaking, anything that is physical in nature is going to be overridden by the new physical form, while anything that is mental in nature is going to be retained.
Maliseth Tyranis 03-28-05, 02:26 PM	You keep the abilites that you would otherwise keep, and loose the abilities you would otherwise loose. You gain the Strength, Dex, and Con scores of the form, but retain the Druid's Int, Wis and Cha. You gain all extraordinary special attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities, or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived by class levels, but you loose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels (such as those from race or templates). You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. This includes natural size (as limited by Wildshape), mundane movement capabilities (with flight limited to 120 feet and a limit of 60 feet for non-flying), nautural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonsus, racial bonus feats and any gross physical qualities. As far as the template goes, any modification it makes to something that you keep the same when changing, stays, any modification it makes to something that is overridden by the change is still overridden by the change. Generally speaking, anything that is physical in nature is going to be overridden by the new physical form, while anything that is mental in nature is going to be retained. Thank you, someone with an informative reply instead of... Of course not. You're changing your shape. Why would you retain part of your shape when you're completely changing it? If I knew why, I wouldn't have posted this.
MrkGrismer 03-28-05, 04:38 PM	No prob. I think sometimes somepeople (not necessarily Thorak, grumpy as he can be;)) see the word template and it triggers their +3 Reactionary Kneejerk. :D :D
BW0222 03-28-05, 07:31 PM	Yes. A vampire can't polymorph into a bat to avoid being destroyed by sunlight, a werewolf altering form into a wolf doesn't loose DR/silver, a pixie druid could wildshape into an eagle and still to invisible and have DR/cold iron, etc.
Thorak 03-28-05, 09:06 PM	Yes. A vampire can't polymorph into a bat to avoid being destroyed by sunlight, a werewolf altering form into a wolf doesn't loose DR/silver, a pixie druid could wildshape into an eagle and still to invisible and have DR/cold iron, etc. From Alter Self , page 197 of the PHB, upon which Polymorph and thus Wildshape is based; "You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels." The important part being that all Ex attacks/qualities derived from the form, which includes templates, and all Su or Sp ones requiring a body part you now lack, you lose when changing shape. Some DR you keep, if it's Su, and some you lose, if it's Ex. And so far as I know, Feral is an entirely natural template, no Su or Sp abilities. Ergo, you don't retain any of it. And, specifically, BWO222 is incorrect when he says a Lycanthrope retains it's DR. Lycanthrope DR is Ex, and is thus lost when changed into a non-lycanthropic form. Of course, it retains it's shapechanging ability, since that's Su, and it'll only last until next round, but turning a werewolf into a chicken and then whacking it while it's DR is gone is a valid tactic. Pixies I am unsure of, since their DR isn't classified as either. DM call. If I come off grumpy, it's because the answer's right there in Alter Self, in black and white. I can understand if the rules are confusing, but the rules are very clear with regard to this specific question.