Druid wildshape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Druid wildshape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
e-z0r
12-16-04, 07:10 PM This is probably not the right forum for this question, but I couldn't think of what would've been better. To the point:

Can someone please clarify a few questions about the druid's wildshape:

About HD: Sovelior&Sage's SRD says that wildshape works as the Polymorph spell, except as noted. Well, it doesn't really say anything about HD anywhere in the wildshape description, so how are hd translated? Does the animal have the druid's HD (to a max of 15, as per polymorph's description), with hit die type changed as per animal description(usually d8..)?

If, for example, a medium animal's description says "Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–5 HD (Large)", does this mean that with 4 HD this animal changes to a Large Animal?

Now, if, say, a 6th level druid were to attempt to wildshape into this animal, assuming the animal form's HD becomes the druid's HD (6d8+possible feat bonuses+animal's con mod), is the animal now a Large Animal?

And if it is, can the druid actually wildshape into this animal, since a 6th level druid can only wildshape into a small or medium creature?

Or does the new animal simply retain it's medium size, and then get the 6d8+mods HP?

I'm sure there were other things I meant to ask but I forgot them already. I'll add as they come along. Thanks to anyone who responds. You can also point me to somewhere where this has been clarified previously.
Mr_Smiley
12-16-04, 08:13 PM From what I can tell about Wildshape here is how it works:

The new animal cannot have more HD than your druid caster level. For example an 8th level druid cannot change into an animal with 9 or more HD.

Your hit die type do not change when you change into an animal. Your origional HP stays the same, except that you calculate your HP as if you had the Con mod of the animal.

I don't know if you can actually change how many HD the animal you change into will have, so I don't think you take any of the "Advancement" stuff into account.
e-z0r
12-16-04, 09:05 PM A-ha, so you get the HD of the animal you're changing to, yet your HP stay the same as your own ('cept animal's con mod)?

If this is true, how about when a lvl 6 druid wildshapes into a Hyena, for instance, is he now susceptible to the effects of, for example, the Sleep spell(not accounting the will save and SR), which he otherwise would've been immune to?
Mr_Smiley
12-16-04, 09:21 PM You keep your original number of hit dice. 6th level druid will still have 6 HD, even if he wildshapes into a wolf (which only has 2 HD).
Thorak
12-16-04, 10:55 PM As for Advanced animals, they're generally seen as unique breeds. So a 3HD wolf, instead of the standard "grey" wolf, might be a timber wolf. Same for tigers; there's multiple breeds, and the biggest is significantly larger than the smallest, the smallest would be the 'standard', the largest would be advanced a few HD.

All this means that you can't take the form of a 6HD wolf unless you A> are at least level 6, to meet the requirements, and B> are "familiar" with a 6HD wolf. Which is not a standard creature; advanced animals you would need to encounter or summon during your adventures to become "familiar" with them and have them available as a Wildshape option.

And if you do, you change into a 6HD wolf, with all the (physical) Advancement benefits, including being size Large.
SnowbearK
12-16-04, 10:55 PM Do your HD change if you cast Polymorph on yourself? no.

It really is that simple. 6th level druid Wildshapes into wolf (for this we'll assume both have the same Con modifier).

Druid HD = 6d8 (let's say he has 40hp)

Wolves have 2HD.

Wildshaped Druid has...6 HD (still 40 hp)

Wildshaped Druid is the same size and has the same physical stats and extraordinary abilities of a wolf with 2HD. His advantage is that he has better mental abilities, woodland stride, etc. as well as 40hp.
XArchangelX
12-17-04, 12:21 AM The druid acquires the physical an natural abilities of the creature whose form he has taken while retaining his own mind. Physical abilities include size as wellas Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores.....

So you get the Con score for purposes taking Con damage.

The druid's new scores and faculties are average ones for the species into which he has transformed.

So you can't transform into a huge wolf, just the average wolf.

The druid retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and charisma scores, level and classes, hit points (despite any change in her Con score.), alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. The druid also retains his own type, extraordinary abilities, and spell-like abilities, but not his supernatural abilities. He loses his ability to speak.....

So its basically your character in wolf's clothing. :) This all from the Masters of the Wild guidebook.
SnowbearK
12-17-04, 02:57 AM Unfortunately, Wildshape's been slightly changed since 3rd edition, which is where Masters of the Wild sits.
e-z0r
12-17-04, 08:13 AM Unfortunately, Wildshape's been slightly changed since 3rd edition, which is where Masters of the Wild sits.

That's not really quite useful since you don't say what's been changed and what hasn't.

I noticed at least this, though: MotW says that you can't wildshape into a dire animal. 3.5 says, according to the Sovelior&Sage SRD that you can change into any creature with the animal type(with the limits of size and such). And dire animals are simply animals, at least, according to the same SRD.
XArchangelX
12-17-04, 09:10 AM Sorry about the 3.0/3.5 thing, MotW doesn't have a version number on it anywhere, and I haven't been playing very long.

I will tell you how my DM is ruling it. I can change into any animal and into anything in any of the monster books that has animal listed as the type of creature. Dire Animals are listed as animals in the 3.5 Monster Manual, as opposed to Magical Beasts, which is what I thought they were at first. I use the above rules for hit points, BAB, etc. I am not allowed to shape into large versions of the animals until I have the minimum Hit Die for a large size of that creature according to the HD advancement line in the description of that creature. Also, I have to reach 8th level before I can change into a large anything.
e-z0r
12-17-04, 02:37 PM The 8th level size restriction and the max HD = class level is standard issue as per Polymorph.

But I wasn't questioning whether you could turn into a dire animal, as I don't think it stands to question. It specifically says that you can turn into any creature with the animal type. And that's also dire animals. That was just a notice I had about something indeed being different between 3.0 and 3.5.

I wonder what else is different, though.
SnowbearK
12-17-04, 11:01 PM e-z0r>> I don't know if you're doing this intentionally, but it seems that you're trying to overcomplicate the ability.

Read Wildshape.

Read Polymorph.

Compare.

Where the two conflict or differ, Wildshape takes precedence.

That's all there is to it. You can't turn into Advanced animals because they aren't "average" members of their species.

If your DM uses the Advanced animal stats for a completely different species of animal, then that's different, as all members of that species have those stats -- they're not Advanced Animals, they just happen to have the same stats as the Advanced version of the animal they're based on. Whether or not such species exist however, that's purely for the DM to decide.

(as a side note, you can turn into Dire animals and even Dinosaurs in 3.5, so long as their HD and Size are compatible with your current Wildshape parameters)
Thorak
12-18-04, 12:19 AM That's all there is to it. You can't turn into Advanced animals because they aren't "average" members of their species.

If your DM uses the Advanced animal stats for a completely different species of animal, then that's different, as all members of that species have those stats -- they're not Advanced Animals, they just happen to have the same stats as the Advanced version of the animal they're based on. Whether or not such species exist however, that's purely for the DM to decide.
Got any proof for any of that? I haven't seen anything stating what an Advanced animal is. It's probably not due to experience. It probably is either separate breeds, as I suggested, or magical/whatever mutations. If you choose the former, they're Wildshape options, but only after you've encountered them. If the latter, they never are, since they're atypical by definition.

But I haven't seen anything official which declares which one's "right".
SnowbearK
12-18-04, 12:58 AM You mean aside from Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual?

Off the top of my head, MM pg 290 has an entry on increased hit dice and how they relate to superior specimens.

Not to mention that every monster listed in the Monster Manual is considered the "norm" for it's type. (aside from clearly Unique ones, such as the Templated NPCs)

By definition, anything outside that norm is not an average member of the species.

I'm also fairly certain (I don't have my books with me at the moment) that there's a suggestion in either the DMG or the MM about creating new monsters by taking the stats from existing ones. Taking the stats from an Advanced Wolf (a non-average member of Wolf) and flatly applying them to a new, non-unique monster we'll call a Moor Hound, we now have a new species (technically not, but for D&D the word works), all members of which have these stats, thus a Druid wildshaping into a Moor Hound would have the same stats of an Advanced Wolf, but would not be an Advanced Wolf, rather the Druid would be an average member of the Moor Hound species.

Since it's entirely up to the DM to introduce new monsters, this method is again, purely for the DM to decide on.
e-z0r
12-18-04, 04:59 AM SnowbearK, semi-intentionally, I would call it.

I mean, sure, I could take it as simply as possible, but I'm afraid of doing stuff that might unbalance the game. As it was, I felt like wildshape leaves too much unclarified. My gaming group has a problem that nobody really wants to DM, so nobody has practised enough of the rules to do it properly, since no-one has yet been a druid. So I'll want to be able to explain what the mechanics of the ability are when I get to play one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
e-z0r 12-16-04, 07:10 PM	This is probably not the right forum for this question, but I couldn't think of what would've been better. To the point: Can someone please clarify a few questions about the druid's wildshape: About HD: Sovelior&Sage's SRD says that wildshape works as the Polymorph spell, except as noted. Well, it doesn't really say anything about HD anywhere in the wildshape description, so how are hd translated? Does the animal have the druid's HD (to a max of 15, as per polymorph's description), with hit die type changed as per animal description(usually d8..)? If, for example, a medium animal's description says "Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–5 HD (Large)", does this mean that with 4 HD this animal changes to a Large Animal? Now, if, say, a 6th level druid were to attempt to wildshape into this animal, assuming the animal form's HD becomes the druid's HD (6d8+possible feat bonuses+animal's con mod), is the animal now a Large Animal? And if it is, can the druid actually wildshape into this animal, since a 6th level druid can only wildshape into a small or medium creature? Or does the new animal simply retain it's medium size, and then get the 6d8+mods HP? I'm sure there were other things I meant to ask but I forgot them already. I'll add as they come along. Thanks to anyone who responds. You can also point me to somewhere where this has been clarified previously.
Mr_Smiley 12-16-04, 08:13 PM	From what I can tell about Wildshape here is how it works: The new animal cannot have more HD than your druid caster level. For example an 8th level druid cannot change into an animal with 9 or more HD. Your hit die type do not change when you change into an animal. Your origional HP stays the same, except that you calculate your HP as if you had the Con mod of the animal. I don't know if you can actually change how many HD the animal you change into will have, so I don't think you take any of the "Advancement" stuff into account.
e-z0r 12-16-04, 09:05 PM	A-ha, so you get the HD of the animal you're changing to, yet your HP stay the same as your own ('cept animal's con mod)? If this is true, how about when a lvl 6 druid wildshapes into a Hyena, for instance, is he now susceptible to the effects of, for example, the Sleep spell(not accounting the will save and SR), which he otherwise would've been immune to?
Mr_Smiley 12-16-04, 09:21 PM	You keep your original number of hit dice. 6th level druid will still have 6 HD, even if he wildshapes into a wolf (which only has 2 HD).
Thorak 12-16-04, 10:55 PM	As for Advanced animals, they're generally seen as unique breeds. So a 3HD wolf, instead of the standard "grey" wolf, might be a timber wolf. Same for tigers; there's multiple breeds, and the biggest is significantly larger than the smallest, the smallest would be the 'standard', the largest would be advanced a few HD. All this means that you can't take the form of a 6HD wolf unless you A> are at least level 6, to meet the requirements, and B> are "familiar" with a 6HD wolf. Which is not a standard creature; advanced animals you would need to encounter or summon during your adventures to become "familiar" with them and have them available as a Wildshape option. And if you do, you change into a 6HD wolf, with all the (physical) Advancement benefits, including being size Large.
SnowbearK 12-16-04, 10:55 PM	Do your HD change if you cast Polymorph on yourself? no. It really is that simple. 6th level druid Wildshapes into wolf (for this we'll assume both have the same Con modifier). Druid HD = 6d8 (let's say he has 40hp) Wolves have 2HD. Wildshaped Druid has...6 HD (still 40 hp) Wildshaped Druid is the same size and has the same physical stats and extraordinary abilities of a wolf with 2HD. His advantage is that he has better mental abilities, woodland stride, etc. as well as 40hp.
XArchangelX 12-17-04, 12:21 AM	The druid acquires the physical an natural abilities of the creature whose form he has taken while retaining his own mind. Physical abilities include size as wellas Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores..... So you get the Con score for purposes taking Con damage. The druid's new scores and faculties are average ones for the species into which he has transformed. So you can't transform into a huge wolf, just the average wolf. The druid retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and charisma scores, level and classes, hit points (despite any change in her Con score.), alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. The druid also retains his own type, extraordinary abilities, and spell-like abilities, but not his supernatural abilities. He loses his ability to speak..... So its basically your character in wolf's clothing. :) This all from the Masters of the Wild guidebook.
SnowbearK 12-17-04, 02:57 AM	Unfortunately, Wildshape's been slightly changed since 3rd edition, which is where Masters of the Wild sits.
e-z0r 12-17-04, 08:13 AM	Unfortunately, Wildshape's been slightly changed since 3rd edition, which is where Masters of the Wild sits. That's not really quite useful since you don't say what's been changed and what hasn't. I noticed at least this, though: MotW says that you can't wildshape into a dire animal. 3.5 says, according to the Sovelior&Sage SRD that you can change into any creature with the animal type(with the limits of size and such). And dire animals are simply animals, at least, according to the same SRD.
XArchangelX 12-17-04, 09:10 AM	Sorry about the 3.0/3.5 thing, MotW doesn't have a version number on it anywhere, and I haven't been playing very long. I will tell you how my DM is ruling it. I can change into any animal and into anything in any of the monster books that has animal listed as the type of creature. Dire Animals are listed as animals in the 3.5 Monster Manual, as opposed to Magical Beasts, which is what I thought they were at first. I use the above rules for hit points, BAB, etc. I am not allowed to shape into large versions of the animals until I have the minimum Hit Die for a large size of that creature according to the HD advancement line in the description of that creature. Also, I have to reach 8th level before I can change into a large anything.
e-z0r 12-17-04, 02:37 PM	The 8th level size restriction and the max HD = class level is standard issue as per Polymorph. But I wasn't questioning whether you could turn into a dire animal, as I don't think it stands to question. It specifically says that you can turn into any creature with the animal type. And that's also dire animals. That was just a notice I had about something indeed being different between 3.0 and 3.5. I wonder what else is different, though.
SnowbearK 12-17-04, 11:01 PM	e-z0r>> I don't know if you're doing this intentionally, but it seems that you're trying to overcomplicate the ability. Read Wildshape. Read Polymorph. Compare. Where the two conflict or differ, Wildshape takes precedence. That's all there is to it. You can't turn into Advanced animals because they aren't "average" members of their species. If your DM uses the Advanced animal stats for a completely different species of animal, then that's different, as all members of that species have those stats -- they're not Advanced Animals, they just happen to have the same stats as the Advanced version of the animal they're based on. Whether or not such species exist however, that's purely for the DM to decide. (as a side note, you can turn into Dire animals and even Dinosaurs in 3.5, so long as their HD and Size are compatible with your current Wildshape parameters)
Thorak 12-18-04, 12:19 AM	That's all there is to it. You can't turn into Advanced animals because they aren't "average" members of their species. If your DM uses the Advanced animal stats for a completely different species of animal, then that's different, as all members of that species have those stats -- they're not Advanced Animals, they just happen to have the same stats as the Advanced version of the animal they're based on. Whether or not such species exist however, that's purely for the DM to decide. Got any proof for any of that? I haven't seen anything stating what an Advanced animal is. It's probably not due to experience. It probably is either separate breeds, as I suggested, or magical/whatever mutations. If you choose the former, they're Wildshape options, but only after you've encountered them. If the latter, they never are, since they're atypical by definition. But I haven't seen anything official which declares which one's "right".
SnowbearK 12-18-04, 12:58 AM	You mean aside from Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual? Off the top of my head, MM pg 290 has an entry on increased hit dice and how they relate to superior specimens. Not to mention that every monster listed in the Monster Manual is considered the "norm" for it's type. (aside from clearly Unique ones, such as the Templated NPCs) By definition, anything outside that norm is not an average member of the species. I'm also fairly certain (I don't have my books with me at the moment) that there's a suggestion in either the DMG or the MM about creating new monsters by taking the stats from existing ones. Taking the stats from an Advanced Wolf (a non-average member of Wolf) and flatly applying them to a new, non-unique monster we'll call a Moor Hound, we now have a new species (technically not, but for D&D the word works), all members of which have these stats, thus a Druid wildshaping into a Moor Hound would have the same stats of an Advanced Wolf, but would not be an Advanced Wolf, rather the Druid would be an average member of the Moor Hound species. Since it's entirely up to the DM to introduce new monsters, this method is again, purely for the DM to decide on.
e-z0r 12-18-04, 04:59 AM	SnowbearK, semi-intentionally, I would call it. I mean, sure, I could take it as simply as possible, but I'm afraid of doing stuff that might unbalance the game. As it was, I felt like wildshape leaves too much unclarified. My gaming group has a problem that nobody really wants to DM, so nobody has practised enough of the rules to do it properly, since no-one has yet been a druid. So I'll want to be able to explain what the mechanics of the ability are when I get to play one.