Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fallabel 06-27-05, 11:05 PM	I've never played a druid before, but I was looking over the class abilities today. I'm having trouble finding a worthwhile animal to transform into at higher levels. No animal that I've found in the Monster Manual has a CR over 8 (as far as I can tell). It seems like a 15th level Druid (for example) would be decreasing his effectiveness by wildshaping into one of those animals. Am I missing something?
Encard 06-27-05, 11:13 PM	Eh... Remember, with Natural Spell you can cast spells while Wildshapes, and you keep your own BAB. Now, take a look at the dire animals... Transforming into a Dire Lion/Dire Bear/Dire Tiger gives you very good physical stats and some quite painful natural attacks, along with fun stuff like Improved grab/Pounce/etc. You become a whole lot better in melee than you would be otherwise, get a nice HP boost, and can still use spellcasting.
SnowbearK 06-27-05, 11:14 PM	Yeah. The reason most of those animals are only CR8 is because they're just animals. A Wildshaped Druid has teamwork, spellcasting, magic items, experience, and so on. Not to mention that nobody ever expects the ox pulling the party's treasure wagon to break free, turn into a megaraptor or a dire bear or whatever and rampage over the Evil Dark Lord's troops. Still think it's a might weak? Tell you what, buff the next Dire Bear the party runs into with protective magic, offensive magic, a few magic items that it might be able to use (ioun stones for example), give it Druid Levels equal to it's HD -- but assume it's used all of it's Wildshaping for the day. And then give it an adventuring party to complement it's abilities.
Keenath 06-27-05, 11:24 PM	With wildshape, you can more or less ignore your physical stats at creation time -- if you're getting into a melee situation (or heavy fire), you wildshape into an animal and keep your own mental scores. There's plenty of dires that are great, and their CR doesn't really matter -- it's based on a animal mental scores and a moderate BAB and HP, which you aren't affected by. Some of the splatbooks have added additional dires, like the direhawk and dire elephant, that you might want to look at. Plant forms are not to be sneezed at. You can find some pretty nice abilities in there, even if you don't get a lot of EXs. You don't really lose anything for wildshaping except your spellcasting ability (unless you took Natural Spell). Don't worry about it. It's a benefit to increase your scores -- turning into a dire tiger may only be a CR 8 creature, but it's basically a speed boost, lots of natural weapons, +20 STR, +5 DEX, +7 CON, and so on and so forth. What's the downside? Just whining that there isn't a 15 HD creature to morph into? Don't -- you're powerful enough as it is.
Mirikon 06-27-05, 11:30 PM	And don't forget that if you get to Epic, there is a feat called Dragon Wild Shape. Most excelent.
fallabel 06-27-05, 11:30 PM	I didn't realize that the CR's were based so much upon the mental abilities and (lack of) equipment for the animals. When wildshaping, what abilities/equipment bonuses do you retain? BAB has been stated, what about armor bonuses and effects from magical items?
Polaris 06-28-05, 12:31 AM	fallabel, You retain when wildshaped what an animal of that type could resonably use/wear. This (naturally) is subject to a lot of DM discretion, but Skip Williams (in Rules of the Game: Polymorph) discusses the wildshaped druid. To wit, you generally get to keep: Rings Belts Cloaks You generally lose everything else (including weapons and armor). However there are some exceptions. A lot of people claim that Apes, Dire-Apes and Legendary Apes are close enough to humanoid to wear human equipment. If your DM agrees, then Legendary Ape is one of the best animal forms your Druid can take. In addition, there are some special magical properties (like the Wild enchantment on armor) that permits you to retain the item when wildshaped even if you normally would not. -Polaris
ILL34GL3 06-28-05, 07:58 AM	Wildshape+Summon Nature's Ally+Animal Growth on yourself, animal companion and summoned animals=pwnage Druid's are awesome man. Check out the Druid's handbook in the character optimization forum.
fallabel 06-28-05, 08:03 AM	One other thing: If you wildshape, take damage, and then turn back to normal form, what happens to your hitpoints? I.e., if you've got 70 hp normally, and then wildshape into something that has 100 hp, subsequently take 70 points of damage, and then turn back, what happens?
was_fired 06-28-05, 08:10 AM	You have zero hitpoints. Bonus HP due to con are not lost first. Your in just as poor shape as a barbarian who ended his rage after taking a load of damage.
Knight_019 06-28-05, 08:25 AM	Which is why, in general, once most druids hit level 5 they're constantly wildshaped
fallabel 06-28-05, 08:47 AM	Just an aside: Is this stuff covered somewhere in the PHB and I'm just not seeing it? I hate to be asking simple questions about things that are covered in core materials.
Lord Schpungus 06-28-05, 10:38 AM	I'm sure it is, but polymorph, and wildshape (because it's based on polymorph), are easily the most convoluted issues in D&D.
yonman 06-28-05, 01:01 PM	Don't forget fallabel that at 15th level you are able to turn into Plants and Huge creatures. Take a look at the Tendriculous.