Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shaitan0.2beta 03-07-05, 11:44 AM	Druid build out of a all dungeon crawl, no role play adventure, a friend got involved in. They actualy hal very little points for point buy, but their DM allowed them to lower their stats down to three. The Druid made a character with 18 (20) CON and 18 WIS. I think his DEX was big as well but am not sure. Everything else was a 3. Video game style. They started at level 10 or so. The druid didn't need the party for combat. They just stalled the enemies untill he cast all his buffs and whildshaped. Then he just destroyed everything in his path. Honestly, if a characer with four stats at 3 can take out an entire party of same level adventures... It's either a dumb DM or is Natural Spell just a bit too powerfull?
karthos 03-07-05, 11:46 AM	It's a dumb DM and a metagaming player, that character is all but unplayable and is easily crippled.
cambric 03-07-05, 11:52 AM	With CHR and INT at 3, there was an excellent discussion being done about another PC that was this way...this Driud here wouldn't survive. Personally, as a DM and Player, I wouldn't expect the druid to have the intelligence to "know" how to cast spells...I don't care what the wisdom is, you have to have some type of "smarts" going on that you can "know" what to cast...how to cast...we're talking near animal intelligence here. "Instincts", sure...but a Charisma of 3!! You have no social skills...anyhow, very stupid dm that couldn't wipe this PC off the map.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-07-05, 11:54 AM	Even so, just think about it. They don't have to be 3's. What about a druid with four six-es. Or eights? He could still kick ash?
cambric 03-07-05, 12:27 PM	Even so, just think about it. They don't have to be 3's. What about a druid with four six-es. Or eights? He could still kick ash? Now you're talking a different way to Role Play...and Roll Play. First, if he has 8's instead of 3's, he would be more powerful, considerably! But if I'm dm, and the enemy spots ANYBODY "buffing", they are targeted immediatley!! I do that as a PC and my players know that if they "stand around and buff", they are main targets. So, an 8 instead of a 3, for Intelligence first: You know "better" about how to cast and what to cast...you can think it out much better and you're no longer on "instincts". 8 in Charisma has you with "poor" social skills, but definitely douable...not worried about strength, even with a 3...sure, you probably have trouble carrying your spell components, but that can be worked around. Forgot about dex: a 3, he couldn't have walked in there... SO if we move the stats to : 8, 8, 18, 8, 18, 8...still not overly powerful, but can be worked with. As a matter of fact, this has power gamer all over it. As a dm, even if you're at 10th level, I could definitely give the druid more problems with a BBEG: 10, 10, 16, 10, 16, 10 then he would at his scores. I believe, Fixxxer (believe spelled correctly) for sure!, and I've read other DM's on these boards, would wipe this druid out faster than you could imagine! No, not overpowered and the DM is stupid if he still can't win this battle rather easily.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-07-05, 01:54 PM	The player is also stuipid for putting points into constitution. When you wildshape, it replaces your constitution. Including HP. (Don't argue, the sage says it does, and as his fanboys are prone to point out, he's word is official.) Since few animals have 18 con, his HP will drop. What I would have done is put points into int and charisma, as really that's more important for the druid as written than any of the normal stats. Take the core Wild Spell, and he can eb in wildshape most of the day to do so. However, it's too easy to knock out a character with a 3 in any score. Far too easy, any score that drops to 0 either incapacitates the character, or kills him in the case of constitution. My opinion: Crappy power gamer, unimaginative DM. In a normal game, Mr. Druid wouldn't perform as expected.
Thorak 03-07-05, 02:10 PM	The player is also stuipid for putting points into constitution. When you wildshape, it replaces your constitution. Including HP. (Don't argue, the sage says it does, and as his fanboys are prone to point out, he's word is official.) Just a nitpick; while I'm in no way the Sage's fanboy, he's right on this one. The only thing suggesting otherwise in 3.5 is an Errata for the DMG, which is not the primary source for the spell. The 3.5 Polymorph doesn't say at any point, or suggest in any way, that you wouldn't adjust your HP based on the new Con it explicitly says you get, just like you would any other Con change. Which includes changing HP. Edit: Not so much a nitpick of you, but a clarification to keep the crazy ones quiet.
Board_Rider 03-07-05, 02:23 PM	Is this some new kinda genre of gamers that D&D is getting? "Lets lower every stat and max those primary stats!!!" "Screw Roleplaying!!!" It is a good thing that this PC began at 10th level...it's the only way he would have ever seen it. Goblins and Orcs at lower levels would run all over this guy. But, yeah, Druids kick bu-tay. Some of the COpt Boards guys say that this and the Monk class are the only two core classes good from 1-20.
cambric 03-07-05, 02:35 PM	Is this some new kinda genre of gamers that D&D is getting? "Lets lower every stat and max those primary stats!!!" "Screw Roleplaying!!!" It is a good thing that this PC began at 10th level...it's the only way he would have ever seen it. Goblins and Orcs at lower levels would run all over this guy. But, yeah, Druids kick bu-tay. Some of the COpt Boards guys say that this and the Monk class are the only two core classes good from 1-20. Given "normal" stats, the druid does totally rock! I would add "cleric" to the core classes, depending on the domains taken, that are good from 1-20. But the "role" playing value on the first scores is a joke.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-07-05, 02:35 PM	Is this some new kinda genre of gamers that D&D is getting? "Lets lower every stat and max those primary stats!!!" "Screw Roleplaying!!!" It is a good thing that this PC began at 10th level...it's the only way he would have ever seen it. Goblins and Orcs at lower levels would run all over this guy. But, yeah, Druids kick bu-tay. Some of the COpt Boards guys say that this and the Monk class are the only two core classes good from 1-20. that's not a new genre of gamers, they've been around, it's just that they're public now. And if the COpt people say monks are good from levels 1-20, they're wrong. Furthermore, I'd say that Rogues are good from 1-20 as well. And really, as far as non-insane combos go, even the druid pales before a well-played wizard, despite their lack of class features other than magic, Wizards are capable of awesome things, without relying on rules wrinkles. (and if you include them, then they're godlike.)
Tyusk 03-07-05, 05:07 PM	i played a Commoner 2/Druid 1 who was about 75 years old.. he had 6's in str con and dex. but he was great! haha, i diedin the first combat, with a peppermint striped giant bat :) but he was old, which was so cool :) great chracter to roleplay. The first combat wasn't until the 3rd game anyway, so i got to play him a bit
thugpoetry 03-07-05, 05:17 PM	Ahh..but those same wizards aren't nearly as fun to play 1-20 as when you can start from level 11 or so. :) That darn d4 just isn't really forgiving! Granted, at high levels, the wizard owns all. That's a good thing. Makes it worth him having survived all the way up to the highest levels.
Lincoln Hills 03-07-05, 05:45 PM	One of my players once decided she'd run an elf druid. The dice were being especially fickle that night: her results included an 18... and a 4. Ouch. Otherwise, one 10 and a bunch of solid 13s and 14s. She put the 18 in Wisdom (natch!) and the 4 in Intelligence. Since her character was created at the same time as her RL boyfriend's, and his intelligence was OK, they had a working character dynamic. But then, she had decent Charisma to help her out. The general impression one got was of a somewhat befuddled Mowgli type: she knew the wild, but she had trouble with other, more civilized concepts like making correct change for a gold piece, or - most fiendishly complex! - how to unlock and open a door. Other elves always looked upon her with gentle pity ("That girl needs to be put in a home." She spent her every-4th-level stat boosts on Intelligence, to the party's joy, and when the group raided the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and found a tome of clear thought +2, even the party wizard said, "No, please: you first." (Her low intelligence had regularly bought the group woe, but not so often that they weren't willing to forgive her.) I allowed that character - you play 'em as they lie. But if I were doing a point buy system, I would have shot the character down in a hot minute. ;)
Super Guy 03-07-05, 07:06 PM	Hm... yeah, his HP would suck when he shifted. And, also, if I wanted to kill him, I'd use anything I could to negate shifting (not that hard to do for 10th level PCs) and then have a Shadow hit his Touch AC (which is god-awful). He's dead, a shadow, and under the Shadow's control.
Moon-Lancer 03-07-05, 08:19 PM	there is a level 5 magic of fearun spell that does int drain. Its a druid spell so if other druids were to get ticked off at this powergamer, they would use that spell and it would eat his 3 int and then what would happen???? what does happen if you loose all int. Do you die becuse the connection to the soul and the mind are all but nill? would he be in a coma? i know something bad whould happen to a int -3 or so charicter.
Arrowhen 03-07-05, 08:30 PM	what does happen if you loose all int[?] From the SRD: A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.
PlutoniumKnight 03-07-05, 08:40 PM	A smart DM will ego whit you, touch of idiocy, something that will lower any of your 4 low stats, maybe have a enemy appear from behind you and boom you fall unconcious.
mcnoo 03-07-05, 08:59 PM	One int, str, dex or cha lowering effect will most likely take him out. Especially if they're effects that need a reflex save.
Moon-Lancer 03-07-05, 09:31 PM	int would be the best becuse when wildshaped his/her score gets better while the int does not. Cha would work well too. thanks Arrowhen, i should have checked.
Tiddles 03-07-05, 10:37 PM	A character with the 3 and 18 stats would be extremely weak. STR I hope carrying capacity is enforced. A 3 str wilil give you a light load of 10 lbs and a heavy load under 30lbs. INT They would be severely mentally challenged. I'm not talking about special bus students here. I'm talking about people being put in a home because they don't know how to use a spoon. The MM says horses, whales, dogs, and most other animals have an intelligence of 2. CHA A charisma also about average of an amimal. Their charisma is equal to an octopus. An owl, monkey, and horse have more charisma. Not sure if it was changed in 3.5 but in 3.0 a wildshaped druid retains their BAB, hit points, base saves. "The new str, dex, con may affect final attacks and base saves." Therefore the hit points remain at their high level. Just a quick note, a lot of the stat lowering spells will only lower to a minimum of 1.
SnowbearK 03-07-05, 11:36 PM	A single dose of poison will wipe him off the map. One failed save and pop, he's helpless. Coup De Grace from a CR10 opponent, say, the 10th level Rogue with the poison, and he's dead, Jim. Game Over. Ah hell, let's make it a 7th level Rogue. Odds are still damn good that the Druid will fail a fort save against the appropriate poison. Or, better still, a group of two Fighter6's with TWF, light weapons, all coated in poison (Drow, anyone?), with a single 8th level Rogue leading them. Bye bye Druid. Realistically though, as has been stated previously, this guy would never have made it out of 1st level. With 12hp max (15 w/toughness), a max AC of ~11, and a max dmg potential of ~0-4 hp, this guy would be astronomically lucky to survive a single combat, much less the 13 recommended encounters to 2nd level.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-08-05, 05:32 AM	Not sure if it was changed in 3.5 but in 3.0 a wildshaped druid retains their BAB, hit points, base saves. "The new str, dex, con may affect final attacks and base saves." Therefore the hit points remain at their high level. 3.5 changed it, now your change in con changes you HP.
Moon-Lancer 03-08-05, 08:32 AM	Memory rot drains int so I think those go past the one point thing. Also because it is drain its permanent unless a cleric finds him.
Evil Wizard 03-08-05, 12:45 PM	Unless the player is metagaming all the way (which I imagine he is) the druid would be useless in combat because the 3 Int precludes anything resembling intelligent tactics. Buffing your comrades is the smart thing to do. The near-instinctual response of a druid who is barely more intelligent than the animals he favors would be possibly to buff himself, but more likely to use his spells and wildshape to directly attack the enemy head on. The minute he gets flanked, he is doomed. If he's not leaving himself open to attacks of opportunity frequently in his head-on charges, he is cheating. That Int 3 makes him an idiot savant. Wise in the lore of nature, but he should barely be able to even feed himself. With that Cha of 3, he's probably little more than an animal who walks upright; I doubt he'd even wear clothes. I initially thought this topic was about overcoming one or two 3s on your otherwise high-statted character, which is doable. But four 3s is outright unplayable unless the player cheats.
Pfisiar 03-08-05, 01:03 PM	Now that I think about it, any stat below 6 simply does not make sense in a setting like D&D. In a world rife with superstition, disease and such, the need for survival would be utmost. A "sentient" creature with these scores would hinder their parents and societies ability to survive. Most societies would leave such defective infants out in the snow in winter to die. I'm sad to say, but this is how it would be done. So, in my opinion, people with 3 in any stat simply would be unable to survive long enough to make it to the adventurer stat.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-08-05, 02:28 PM	I agree with all of you, but consider the druid with STR, DEX, INT and CHA 6, and 2 18, or make the 6-es 8-s. If the DM doesn't expect the druid, and does nothing specialy targeted to kill him off (doesn't interfere with the pre-made module, for example at a tournament), the damn thing could still be a powerhouse. Basicly, if there is no fear of ability drain, the druid could have 0's everywhere he wants if the were allowed (not incampasitating), as long as he can wildshape. If the player was a powergamer (and I know quite a few very ready to build like that) he really wouldn't care about any other stat but CON (for the HP out of wildshape) and WIS (for the spells) and whatever is vital to the whildshaping. True? I know a lot of people playin Baldurs Gate (and such) like thet. They play the mode that allows them to make an entire party, and then min/max them insanely. Every character but the leader gets CHA 3 (and INT 3 I think) and so on.
HomebrewedMonster 03-08-05, 02:37 PM	This character has the survivability as an infant on the 666th layer of the abyss. The only thing he can do is swing a club/paw and cast spells. He does not have the mental facilities to know when and how to use spells. So he would memorize simple spells (buff and direct damage) and would only know to cast them on himself or an enemy. He would not know that his flame strike covers a 10 foot circle and would probably blast a party memeber with it. He would not be able to use any detection spell and understand anything he senses, and forget commune with nature or stone shape. There are also too many creatures out there that would completely shut down this horrid excuse for a character. A simple 1st level wizard with a ray of enfeeblement would make him completely useless, since his touch armor class is -5. Any type of strength, dexterity, intelligence, or charisma draining, damaging creature will be able to shut him down in a mere round. That would include incorporeal touch attacks, poisons, arcane and divine spells, and super natural abilities. The only reason this character will survive is because the DM is stupid, which is apparent since he allowed this character to be created.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-08-05, 02:44 PM	A simple 1st level wizard with a ray of enfeeblement would make him completely useless, No he couldn't. A str of 1 isn't that much different than a str of 3, for all intents and purposes. He would need other tactics.
HomebrewedMonster 03-08-05, 02:47 PM	I agree with all of you, but consider the druid with STR, DEX, INT and CHA 6, and 2 18, or make the 6-es 8-s. If the DM doesn't expect the druid, and does nothing specialy targeted to kill him off (doesn't interfere with the pre-made module, for example at a tournament), the damn thing could still be a powerhouse. Basicly, if there is no fear of ability drain, the druid could have 0's everywhere he wants if the were allowed (not incampasitating), as long as he can wildshape. If the player was a powergamer (and I know quite a few very ready to build like that) he really wouldn't care about any other stat but CON (for the HP out of wildshape) and WIS (for the spells) and whatever is vital to the whildshaping. True? I know a lot of people playin Baldurs Gate (and such) like thet. They play the mode that allows them to make an entire party, and then min/max them insanely. Every character but the leader gets CHA 3 (and INT 3 I think) and so on. DnD is not a video game. You are completely useless in almost every aspect of the game, except combat. There is a huge difference between 8's and 3's, the difference being a -5 and -1. Even if you did have 8's in everything but Constitution and Wisdom you would have an uninteresting character that is good at two things. Ok, so there are no ability damaging spells or creatures. What do you do when you are surprised by a reflex save damage spell? Find yourself in an anti-magic zone, keeping you from casting or shifting? There are plenty of situtations where this character would be completely useless. You can also only carry 35 poounds as a light load. With the majority of the the shapes you can change into, you loose quite a few of magic items slots. As a bear, only have bracer, necklace, and rings. Remember, when you shift most of the items are absorbed into your form and loose their magical properties.
HomebrewedMonster 03-08-05, 02:49 PM	No he couldn't. A str of 1 isn't that much different than a str of 3, for all intents and purposes. He would need other tactics. Your light load goes from 10 pounds to 3 pounds, if your wearing more than 15 lbs you cannot move.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-08-05, 03:01 PM	Well, it's true that you would have an uninteresting character. BUT - 1) D&D is strongly combat orientated 2) The mayority of players agree thet combat should be the focus of the game. Furthermore, a LOT of players don't want to have anything with non-combat aspects of the game except buying equipement. 3) The only classes thet are not strongly combat orientated are the rogue and the bard (even if the rogue has great combat abilities). Every other class is combat orientated and is considered quite useless outside of it (Bbn, Ftr, Mnk for one thing) I know that the character would be vulnerable, but it would be neccecary for the DM to create encounters just to nerf him. It would have a great impact on the game. I'm not a fan of this aproach, I play a non-combat rogue/diviner all the time. But it is a fact that the wildshape/natura spell combo allows people to ignore some of the stats completely. There is too much people that don't find any satisfaction in anything but combat, and would consider this a remarkable build. Sad, I know.
cambric 03-08-05, 03:10 PM	Well, it's true that you would have an uninteresting character. BUT - 1) D&D is strongly combat orientated 2) The mayority of players agree thet combat should be the focus of the game. Furthermore, a LOT of players don't want to have anything with non-combat aspects of the game except buying equipement. 3) The only classes thet are not strongly combat orientated are the rogue and the bard (even if the rogue has great combat abilities). Every other class is combat orientated and is considered quite useless outside of it (Bbn, Ftr, Mnk for one thing) I know that the character would be vulnerable, but it would be neccecary for the DM to create encounters just to nerf him. It would have a great impact on the game. I'm not a fan of this aproach, I play a non-combat rogue/diviner all the time. But it is a fact that the wildshape/natura spell combo allows people to ignore some of the stats completely. There is too much people that don't find any satisfaction in anything but combat, and would consider this a remarkable build. Sad, I know. First, how do you role play an idiot, who's too stupid to know how much of an idiot it is? (no offense meant, but you're asking about ROLE playing...a 3 for INT!!) Even a 6 is low...an 8, ok...possible...but you're also asking about Charisma being low...that's not ROLE playing anymore...you're trying to power-game by putting 18's in 2 stats and the rest nothing. The DM wouldn't have to nerf anything...the PC would've died LONG before 10th level!! OK, *poof* 10th level PC with those stats...wildshape with natural spell...you're still talking about a PC that doesn't "understand" tactics!! And that's ROLE playing. If the DM is "honest" with themselves, and plays every encounter how it should be, the druid wouldn't last long...sorry, this is a "bad" PC to have.
HomebrewedMonster 03-08-05, 03:18 PM	Well, it's true that you would have an uninteresting character. BUT - 1) D&D is strongly combat orientated 2) The mayority of players agree thet combat should be the focus of the game. Furthermore, a LOT of players don't want to have anything with non-combat aspects of the game except buying equipement. 3) The only classes thet are not strongly combat orientated are the rogue and the bard (even if the rogue has great combat abilities). Every other class is combat orientated and is considered quite useless outside of it (Bbn, Ftr, Mnk for one thing) I know that the character would be vulnerable, but it would be neccecary for the DM to create encounters just to nerf him. It would have a great impact on the game. I'm not a fan of this aproach, I play a non-combat rogue/diviner all the time. But it is a fact that the wildshape/natura spell combo allows people to ignore some of the stats completely. There is too much people that don't find any satisfaction in anything but combat, and would consider this a remarkable build. Sad, I know. 1. In your mind 2. Then why has everyone that posted in this thread say otherwise. 3. Actually the fighter is, every other class has these crazy things called "skills", that let them operate outside of combat. The DM would not have to design encounters to nerf him. A single shadow is a good challenge for a 3rd level party. If you enter a dungeon all bets are off. As a DM you should not have to pull your punches because of a player's metagaming. Go to the character optimization board and ask for a build with those stats. Even the min/maxers on the board will remark about how you have an unplayable character.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-08-05, 04:51 PM	. 3. Actually the fighter is, every other class has these crazy things called "skills", that let them operate outside of combat. Umm, are you playing the same fighter that everyone else is? Because I do beleive the fighter skill list sucks ass.
HomebrewedMonster 03-08-05, 04:56 PM	Umm, are you playing the same fighter that everyone else is? Because I do beleive the fighter skill list sucks ass. Thank you for supporting what I said.
LordSin 03-08-05, 06:13 PM	Druid: STR 3, DEX 3, CON 18, INT 3, WIS 18, CHA 3 Unplayable. In reality he would be a crippled retard that would be sitting in a corner of his padded room drooling. The DM should not allow this, and the player is an idiot for wanting to play such a lame character. Period.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-09-05, 11:17 AM	Hey people, I agree that such a character is an abomination and is unplayable. When I said that D&D is combat orientated, I ment that every time I get into such disscussions on the net or in real life everybody (or most of the people) say that they enjoy combat much more then other aspects of the game. You don't think that it's combat orientated, that's why you are replying to this thread, It insults you or irritates you or whatever. As I said, I play a non-combat rogue/diviner ALL the time for the last 5 years. That's why I have an issue with min/maxed powergamer's druids. I've done some research, and "interwieved" people I know that play druids and all of them agree, or MOST of them agree that the druid doesn't need skills or any ability except CON and WIS. Levels 1-8 (or whenever he gets wildshape) he is a healer and summons creatures for distraction. He needs the CON for hp, and never participates in melee or ranged combat. Levels beyond that he wildshapes, and doesn't care about what his original stats were. The most common build of the druid in these parts is a dwarf druid with STR, DEX, INT and CHA 10 or 10-, and CON and WIS 18 (20) if possible.
Nithendil 03-09-05, 11:29 AM	Why would you boost CON to 18? In almost every case when you shift you would lose hp.... When you shift you keep your mental stats and lose your physical. And past level 5 you will be shifted nearly all the time. So if you're min/maxing you would boost WIS CHA and INT and not care too much about STR DEX and CON (except if you want to survive early levels).
Count Arioch the 28th 03-09-05, 04:08 PM	Nith, I've said that twice, and no one paid any mind to it. We true min-maxers are a rare breed, too many are obsessed with damage dealt, when a true min-maxer knows that there are other things that are equally important.
Nidair 03-09-05, 06:23 PM	Let me first say that I'm surprised by the maturity level in this thread, and the fact that negative replies are not followed by an offensive meteor swarm of words. Congratulations. But really, taking such a druid out should not be a real hassle. I bet any sane DM knows how...
Shaitan0.2beta 03-10-05, 07:37 AM	Count Arioch sees the point of CON 18 rightly. :thumbsup: You need it to survive to level 8 (low AC and all that, need hp to soak up damage) I've finaly talked to the player who build the ridiculous druid and wouldn't you know it, he doesn't even know what min/max means. Never been to any RPG gamer forum. Doesn't own any books. Played only Fallout 1 & 2 and tried Planescape: Torment. Didn't like Torment. Played a lot of MtG. The guy has gamed pen & paper for about 2-3 months. The guy is a newbie! And he didn't start out with a druid with all those 3's. The story is quite interesting, and there is a lot to learn and conclude from it. Goes something like this: -The guy wanted to play something powerfull, and he prefers combat to other elements. The other guys told him that the Druid is the best and he made a druid with normal stats, not even "optimized". They started at level 1. -He ended up being the band-aid factory, since the party had no cleric, and he was geting bored, because he rarely got into any combat so the points he put in STR and DEX didn't pay off much. He had fair INT and CHA but he (player) isn't very imaginative, and the DM didn't offer many options so that was useless as well. -Afther a few sessions he asked a moderately expirienced player (who sometimes checks out the optimization boards, just to get a laugh) why was the druid so good, because he was becoming bored to death. The expirienced player explained wildshape to him, and proceeded with explaining natural spell. -The druid player then borrowed my PHB and read the Druid description carefully. He asked me if there was a core race that get's bonus WIS. I said no. Then he settled for the dwarf. Next character he played had STR, DEX and INT 10, CHA 8, CON 20 and WIS 16-18 (not sure). They started at hier level (not enough for wildshape, but they got there eventualy), and he felt smug, because he figured out in just a couple of sessions that he realy doesn't need anything but CON and WIS, and he was starting to wonder if he need's a high WIS if they were going to start over again soon. -Next time they started over he shyly lowered everything but CON and WIS to 8. He had a great time and kicked ass. He didn't even feel bad about non-combat parts being too long anymore, because he was very pleased with his combat capabilities, and didn't feel the least bit interested in anything else. -Then he made the all 3's but CON and WIS, just to check if the druid was that powerfull. It is if the game is a pen & paper videogame, if you apply common sense to it, then there are restrictions. Now. What have I learned? Even though the build from the title of this thread is unplayable, a build with all 8's but CON and WIS isn't. A CORE build. There is a class among the eleven core classes that can succesfully ignore 4 of the basic stats and still rock (unless the DM takes special action just to prevent that, and that is still braking the game). I've read dozens of topic's about how Monk sucks (is the worst class) because he need's 4 (or three) rather high stats. What about the core, 1-20 class that needs only 2 high stats, and guess what, they are the ones that give him Fort and Will saves, and the dude casts spells, and kicks ass if he can work out the AC? And a total newbie could figure the essence of this out after about 7-8 sessions? :confused:
cambric 03-10-05, 08:36 AM	Count Arioch sees the point of CON 18 rightly. :thumbsup: Even though the build from the title of this thread is unplayable, a build with all 8's but CON and WIS isn't. That was mentioned, in one of my earlier posts, it is playable...but it will depend on WHO is in your party...does the party work together? What other classes are in the group? Those type of answers will aid in how well the druid survives too.
devinmdp 03-10-05, 11:40 PM	This thread is about the best argument for why I make my players roll their stats and not do a point buy. Devin
Nithendil 03-11-05, 01:25 AM	This thread is about the best argument for why I make my players roll their stats and not do a point buy. Except in point buy you cannot go below 8, unless the DM for an odd reason houserules otherwise, so there is no reason why this would occur under normal pointbuy conditions.
FreeTheSlaves 03-11-05, 04:08 AM	By the RAW, if the total modifiers are +0 or less the character is to be rerolled. So an 18,18,18,3,3,3 is an illegal character.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-11-05, 04:59 AM	That was mentioned, in one of my earlier posts, it is playable... Sorry Cambric, you are right! :thumbsup: Since Arcioch declared himself a min/maxer I wanted to end all the "this is unplayable" posts with pointing out that a build with all four 8's strikes a min/maxer as rasonable, or at least aprovable. ...but it will depend on WHO is in your party...does the party work together? What other classes are in the group? Those type of answers will aid in how well the druid survives too. I'm sure there are plenty of parties that could profit from such a druid. As I said I didn't play the character, my friend, or better to say, my aquaintance (not sure if I spelled that right) did. Realy, I'm just a slight bit more mature then posting "Uh I know this powerhamer his name is Uh... Bob?" topics) :) By the RAW, if the total modifiers are +0 or less the character is to be rerolled. So an 18,18,18,3,3,3 is an illegal character. True, true, but imagine that the its 8, 8, 18, 8, 16, 8 or something like that. The fellow who built the one with 3's was half-way joking and half-way experimenting. Well the point of this topic was realy to see what do the people think about there being a class that takes casual amateur min/maxing to new frontiers. Since you need just two stats above 8 to be powerfull if you start pre-wildshape & natural spell. If you start post wildshape and natural spell you might need a WIS 16+ and all other stats coud be 10 or less or even 8 or less, and it would still be playable if not powerfull. Now, I've seen people trying to play Monks witouth the point buy, and it was bad. You need to roll up insanely good rolls to play a core race monk and be powerfull, that's what I've seen. 5d6 - 2d6 character creation maybe, if he is lucky. This is an observation by a non-combat situations fan. The rogue may have similar problems IMH exp. Casual Fighters, Wizards, Sorcerors and whathaveyou can be one stat wonders, with a big CON as well, but none of them is melee, spells and healing powerhouse at the same time. The Drd is plain silly. I wonder if anybody playtests theese things? Did anyone think of the old Time Stop + Haste combo before the printed 3.0? Ok, so that was a wierd spell combo, but this was intentional. I remember a conversation i've had with a local gamer some time before the 3.5 came out. He was going to play a druid in a friend's game, and it was local common knowledge back then that the druid was the worst class to play(that was just a local thing, don't know if it was true). "No, no, no, there is tis feat in this splatbook that makes a Druid shifter insanely powerfull, blah, blah..." he said. I just shrugged, and was smug because I don't allow non-core material in my games. Now I have no choice, since I don't make houserules. O.K. enough of ranting for now. Question is - what got into WotC to give a core class the ability to completely change physical stats, mode of transportation and cast divine spells at the same time?
HomebrewedMonster 03-11-05, 05:34 AM	This thread is about the best argument for why I make my players roll their stats and not do a point buy. Devin You can not point buy a 3.
HomebrewedMonster 03-11-05, 05:37 AM	O.K. enough of ranting for now. Question is - what got into WotC to give a core class the ability to completely change physical stats, mode of transportation and cast divine spells at the same time? Because a Dire bear cannot just waltz into town.
FreeTheSlaves 03-11-05, 06:05 AM	Btw, I take back what I said a moment ago as my PHB uses the word "may". You don't have to reroll if you so wish. Anyhoo... IMX every stat is important, including charisma. This is not just my opinion but occurs during play. Sure charisma 8 is quite common but about 1/4 to 1/2 of a session can be spent talking to NPC's and I find social PC's need to roll for a social skill at least once during this, whether they are capable or not. Sure, this is only my campaign experience but I see players chopping and changing when it come to which stat to make (below)average during character creation. I really like seeing this. I like hard decisions as it indicates real, meaningful choice. Brave indeed would be the player that handled 3 weak ability scores - I know I wouldn't.
Shaitan0.2beta 03-13-05, 03:18 PM	:bump: Well, just to give anyone else a chance to give an opinion, since I'm realy interested in seeing more things pointed out considering the Druid class
Draco Strang 03-14-05, 09:15 AM	I'm suprised at all of the "3 of this stat and 20 of this stat" threads that have sprung up in the last two weeks. I swear people make these characters up and post for a reaction.
Drachasor 03-14-05, 12:05 PM	Sure a Druid with 8s in 4 of his stats and good con and wis can be very effective...in combat. Outside of combat he is going to have relatively few skill points, which is a shame since a Druid has some many extremely useful (and some absolutely necessary) class skills (spot, listen, Knowledge(nature), survival, concentration, spellcraft, diplomacy, handle animal). With just 3 skill points a level, those skills are going to get relatively worse every level. Also, since he will be spending time in his normal form, his fairly poor carrying capacity is nothing to ignore either, though, unlike the 3 Str guy that started the thread, at least he can wear his armor. Charisma isn't a great stat for almost all classes, so we can ignore the dumpage there (imho, its a game mechanic problem in general, not just with the Druid). Dexterity is a bit of a lost cause too, except in the rare situations the Druid is in their human form...of course they need to be in this form to talk...which is needed when dealing with NPCs...surprise attacks happen (and compounding a bad save with a bad stat leads to bad results). Mechanically there are enough trade-offs, so I don't think it is a point buy problem. Personally, I like having at least some sort of positive int-mod on almost all of my characters, just for the skills. Of course, the DM needs to make sure that skill use, and need for a normal form do come up in the game. If he doesn't and it is largely just hack and slash, then a lot of classes can ignore a lot of stats. Intelligence and Charisma can be ignored by almost everyone, for instance. -Drachasor
alexanderwales 03-14-05, 01:30 PM	Well I'm making a druid with point buy 40 (which I've heard is a little high), and he's going to use Str as a dump stat. And honestly, I don't really see what the problem is with having low intelligence. Animals have a 2 for that, and they can learn all sorts of tricks. I would assume that a 3 Int character would act a lot like an animal. With divine magic at his side, he could in theory survive until he gets wildshape, at which point he can just become a bear for the rest of his life. 3 Int doesn't really mean anything about being a blubbering mass of flesh. It doesn't even mean anything about language. Language is instinctual, not something that takes intelligence to use. Look at studies of language in brain damaged people. There are people who have lost the ability to speak/write/read but can still solve complex differential equations, and those who can speak fully, but can't add two single digit numbers together. 3 Cha is a little more troubling, but that only means reptile/fish intelligence. It means practically no force of will upon others, and reduces the potential character to even more of an animal state. I don't really see that as a problem as long as the party can keep him under their control (much like one feeds a dog so that it won't attack them). 3 Str and 3 Dex aren't really a problem, they only mean that he's weak and slow. A really old commoner has Str and Dex of about 4. Personally, I prefer to play an older druid anyway, so I'm used to low Str and Dex. The only thing you have trouble with is carrying capacity and AC, and that all changes when you go wildshape anyway. A druid who stays in wildshape a lot of the time isn't going to have many possessions anyway (not until high level anyway). That doesn't mean it's not a munchkin build.
cambric 03-14-05, 02:31 PM	A druid who stays in wildshape a lot of the time isn't going to have many possessions anyway (not until high level anyway). Of course you're supposing you'll stay alive that long. If you were in my campaign, or in my DM's campaign, and came in with a 3 in one or more of your stats, the odds that you'll make it to wildshape is pretty low. It does matter on what "type" of campaign you're playing...if you're trying to ROLE play, then a 3 int, 3 charisma, or a 3 wisdom is NOT going to cut it. And I'm no expert, but to see anyone succeed well in those stats would be amazing...that is IF they are ROLE playing. If you're only ROLL playing, yeah, you can do it...shoot, if that's all you're going to do, why not start out at wildshape? :rolleyes: I'm suprised at all of the "3 of this stat and 20 of this stat" threads that have sprung up in the last two weeks. I swear people make these characters up and post for a reaction. I couldn't agree more! Cam
BW0222 03-14-05, 10:47 PM	>Druid: STR 3, DEX 3, CON 18, INT 3, WIS 18, CHA 3 This is too stupid to be considered. No one would train such as person. They would be in an asylum. They can barely walk, move, understand, or interact with others. They couldn't function in society, nor the wild, gain a skill or practice a profession. They certainly wouldn't be useful to a druid's grove - they aren't likely to survive, can't teach other druids, can't learn skills to be useful, etc., etc. Even meta-gaming, no one would play a 1st-level PC with such stats. They'd be chased out of town, would be useless in combat, could get the party into trouble, etc., etc. AC 5, unable to wear armour (due to weight), unable to wield weapons, and no useful skills to the party? What party is going to want useless creature like this?