Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Madmartigan 02-16-04, 07:14 PM	Well, let me begin with a little bit of background to this dilemma. My PC is a NG Ranger/Barbarian and his cohort a NG Druid. I'm just not sure how to rp a NG Druid or PC at this moment. If you want the short story, just skip down to the italics and the bold sections (I know that it's a bit long, so if you're interested you can then read the fuller story). Our party was about to enter onto the pinwheel of Limbo, just comming off of Yggdrasil - if you're unfamiliar with these locations, don't worry, they really arn't the problem. The problem is, we are in a large group (almost 8 people at times) and one character is starting to out power the others (with almost 130k gp in magical items at 8th level, a problem I know, but of another topic). To the point. We are about to head into a huge jungle like area that we know if full of dangerous and intelligent animals that we need to pass through to get to a "safe" area on the pinwheel. Our current plan had been to use invisibility sphere to try to get through. Right before we entered the jungle, we encountered an intelligent monkey. Seeing the monkey watching us and then move away from us, my PC (a ranger/barbarian) with his cohort (a druid) both run at full speed (not to catch the monkey, but to out run it to where it might be going). When they asked me why I was doing that (as if I was being stupid at the time) I told them in longer words than this, that the monkey was probably a scout going to warn about our arrival. Unfortunatly, there was a monk in our party who decided to go grab the monkey. To make a long story short, it was intelligent and was yelling at us to leave - I attempted to use wild empathy on it (weither this could work or not was moot as you will soon see). Anyhow, they gagged the monkey twice, once for when it was saying to go away, a second time for when it started to call for help. The monkey did not survive the rough handling as the monk kept my character away from it (I was not attempting to grab it or anything, they just didn't want me near the monkey). Anyhow, to make a long story short: The monk (whom is disliked quite a bit by my character now, and some before then as somewhat craven in character) and another ended up killing the monkey right in front of my druid as he was talking to the monkey - as the monkey was calling out for help! Now I am not sure what to do, as both my characters found that act quite evil and shocking - perhaps on the verge of murder. We fled the rest of the party, ran into some other intelligent animals who questioned me, I told them that "they killed the monkey" as my cohort is weeping over it. And then, if you havn't guessed it yet - the monkey had a name. At that point, I told them the truth of what happened and described the monk's character. They let me pass peacefully. Now, I know that my actions could be questionable, but please, if you doubt them, ask me my reasoning first before any accusations arise. In the end, we all made it to the safe area safely and will be staying there for a couple days. My Question Is: So now I'm not sure what I should do now? If I were evil, I'd probably kill the monk in his sleep, perhaps as nature's judge, but I'm not evil and that action seems to be more suitable for a LN druid. Furthermore, my PC does things more honorably and I would challenge him, except he has an item that could instantly immobilize my character. I'd almost go and ask what punishment is suitable for him from the animals as the jungle, but I know they'd say kill him. Further more, our party is composed of almost all neutral morally aligned PC's and those of Evil disposition almost out number those of good alignment (two PC's total, myself and a Paladin who at this point is considering becoming a Black Guard because he's fed up with several things). So how would a NG druid act in this situation? Or NG in general who deeply respects nature and intelligent creatures? Any advice would be great! Thanks, -Mad.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-16-04, 08:16 PM	By telling the animals, you have made them judge and jury. If they come hunting the monk, I'd say you would act as witness, and abide by their judgement, but not act as executioner. This is the hard part. A character such as yours would have a hard time continuing to associate with the others, unless some over riding greater good had to be acomplished and they are the only ones willing to help you. Honestly, your character might choose to leave the party, maybe returning to the animals, to make reparations and live with them. Good luck, you're going to need it.
Zerelde 02-16-04, 09:19 PM	If you're enjoying the game and just need to have a solid reason for the druid to continue with the party, then think about it in a long-term scheme rather than short term. What purpose do you have for travelling with the group in the first place? There should be one. I think some of the best roleplaying can come from characters having to make difficult moral decisions, and this could be one for your druid. What greater good are you trying to achieve? If you can find one, then perhaps it's a reason for your druid to continue on with the group at this point.... ....anyway, it's just a thought. Good luck; that's a toughie.
danielinthewolvesden 02-17-04, 02:33 PM	Let us see. You know you are entering an area of "dangerous and intelligent animals"- and one pC kills one in order to stop it from alerting more & more dangerous animals to the parties presence- which will likely add great danger to the party. How then did your Druid consider that action "evil"? if you were in Giant country, and there was a Ogre scout who was running off & yelling for help - thus alerting the Giants- would it not make sense to silence him- even by killing him? You do have a problem in that your party is far too morally divided. That was a mistake on the part of your DM. You shouldn't have Evils in a mixed party. Well, PC's in general shouldn't play evil, but when they do, having Goods in the same problem will creat problems. No Good character would ever adventure with a Blackguard!:b:
pres_man 02-17-04, 04:18 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Let us see. You know you are entering an area of "dangerous and intelligent animals"- and one pC kills one in order to stop it from alerting more & more dangerous animals to the parties presence- which will likely add great danger to the party. How then did your Druid consider that action "evil"? if you were in Giant country, and there was a Ogre scout who was running off & yelling for help - thus alerting the Giants- would it not make sense to silence him- even by killing him? Or how about if you were going into an area you knew that bandits were attacking in. A human sees you and runs away yelling for help. You kill him, so that he can't warn the others. Later you learn that he was actually a local farmer looking for his sheep and when he saw you, mistook you for the bandits. Was killing him an evil act? Duh!!! Heck yes. Just because somebody goes and warns others against a group of dangerous folk (the party), doesn't mean they deserve to die. The monkey did not survive the rough handling as the monk kept my character away from it (I was not attempting to grab it or anything, they just didn't want me near the monkey). Should of beserked and began attacking the monk, right then. Let the rest of the party show their true colors. You could try to do non-lethal damage to show that you weren't trying to kill the monk only beat his skull in a little. Now I am not sure what to do, as both my characters found that act quite evil and shocking - perhaps on the verge of murder. If the monkey was basically helpless, then this was murder. So how would a NG druid act in this situation? Or NG in general who deeply respects nature and intelligent creatures? I could think of a couple of options. 1. Tie up the monk while he is sleeping, remove all magic equipment, take him back to the forest, untie him and leave him to be dealt with. 2. Leave the party and go your own way. (Probably have to make up a new character to join the party, which might suck.) 3. Leave the party and actively try to get allies to attack the "evil" members. If they have demonstrated that they are evil, then they should be stopped. (Not sure how your other players or DM would feel about this, maybe you could again make up a new character and your DM can change your characters to NPC's that are after the party.)
Madmartigan 02-17-04, 06:26 PM	Well, things have taken a sort of twist against me I would say. After ariving, we meet our contact who is suppose to provide us with transportation to an area in the Fire Plane. Turned out however, he didn't want to talk to me very much and so requested I sit out while he talked to everyone else. Anyhow, our party was basically pumped for info while I couldn't do much about it. Anyhow, I've heard that at least two others in my party (the monk who killed the monkey and a "close" wizard friend) wanted to kill me, primarily because the Contact was telling them I was a danger and might want to kill everyone. So now it looks like I can take any pre-emtive actions against them because it would just be affirming what most the other members think "might" be wrong with my character, and dig me in a hole with them. It also turns out that one of the cohorts of a PC died, an unseen consiquence of what happened, and so I'll probably go to attain a means to raise her. danielinthewolvesden, like I was saying in my first post, I would have liked to have gone further into why I did what I did, but didn't want to take up too much space. However, I'm trying to stay within the bounds of my character as NG and as a Druid. The oger scout and giants example, while correct in some respects, is not the best annalogy to give from my circumstances. I'm just saying, a better analogy would be if I were a cleric of some beligerent territorial deity and we came across a town of people who all didn't want strangers to come in, including myself, and we knew they would attack us if that happened. If you saw, perhaps, an unarmed, non combative commoner who, at first you didn't even realize was important, and then started to just "go away from you" - not explicitly to warn the others, should that person be killed to stop him from going anywhere? What if they wern't even threatening you, just calling for you to "go away," and then when he started getting treated really roughly, called "help! help!" I'm just saying, we never found out for sure if the monkey was going to warn someone, or was just curious and then disinterested (but it was a safe bet to assume so) - no one ever asked it, and no one bothered to (or had the time to, as in my case) Besides the point, we were entering into what they consider their territory, which we knew they were protective of. Anyhow though, I agree with what you say about the moral division in our group, it's rather a missmatch of individuals who for some reason have stayed together this long. Should of beserked and began attacking the monk, right then. Let the rest of the party show their true colors. You could try to do non-lethal damage to show that you weren't trying to kill the monk only beat his skull in a little. I had thought about it, and might have been able to take him on, except he has aprox. 4 times the wealth I have in magical items and a touch ac of 21 and a regular ac of 24. As for your comment on the monkey being helpless - it was; it only struggled against being held, but never attacked or even gave an audible threat, only had time to say "go away" and "help" I had also considered leaving the party, but we are united by a common enough threat that I would be willing to continue on at least until this adventure is finished. Anyhow, thanks for all the advice so far! I'm still not sure what will end up happening, although I'll be making sure to keep an eye open during the next few nights as I rest. Any other Ideas on how to play a NG Druid are well appreciated. -Mad.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-17-04, 09:27 PM	Originally posted by Madmartigan After ariving, we meet our contact who is suppose to provide us with transportation to an area in the Fire Plane. Turned out however, he didn't want to talk to me very much and so requested I sit out while he talked to everyone else. Anyhow, our party was basically pumped for info while I couldn't do much about it. Anyhow, I've heard that at least two others in my party (the monk who killed the monkey and a "close" wizard friend) wanted to kill me, primarily because the Contact was telling them I was a danger and might want to kill everyone.-Mad. What reason would this Contact speak against you? Have you ever met them before? Is the Contact trying to cause the party to fall appart, and there by defeating your efforts in the big picture? I thought Fade had problems.
Thaden 02-19-04, 01:01 PM	If your character felt that strongly over it. He would leave the party. (AKA. Retire your characte & remake somthing that gets along better with your party.)
meabolex 02-19-04, 01:32 PM	*sigh* Originally posted by pres_man Duh!!! Heck yes. Just because somebody goes and warns others against a group of dangerous folk (the party), doesn't mean they deserve to die. And I guess the party doesn't deserve to die if the person really was a bandit and the bandits came and overwhelmed the PCs.:rolleyes: Should of beserked and began attacking the monk, right then. Let the rest of the party show their true colors. You could try to do non-lethal damage to show that you weren't trying to kill the monk only beat his skull in a little. Let's hear it for true stupid. (: Beat his skull in a little? Yeah, that's good alright.:rolleyes: If the monkey was basically helpless, then this was murder. Ok, it's not all insanity after all (: I agree. 1. Tie up the monk while he is sleeping, remove all magic equipment, take him back to the forest, untie him and leave him to be dealt with. Evil action. . . rendering someone helpless and allowing them to die. A form of murder actually. Leave the party and go your own way. (Probably have to make up a new character to join the party, which might suck.) The best possible action. Leave the party and actively try to get allies to attack the "evil" members. If they have demonstrated that they are evil, then they should be stopped. (Not sure how your other players or DM would feel about this, maybe you could again make up a new character and your DM can change your characters to NPC's that are after the party.) [/B] Another possible option. I'm sure the druid in question doesn't want to off his character. I think he'll probably not like this idea. My Advice: don't play in evil parties with good characters.
Glak 02-19-04, 01:47 PM	I'm going to assume that the monkey wasn't evil, which is clearly implied but not stated. As a good character it is your moral obligation to hunt down your former comrades. You are an adventurer. It is you job to hunt the bad guys. The monk and crew are the bad guys. That paladin shouldn't be a paladin anymore btw. Your DM basically sucks. So here's what you do: Tell your DM that your characters are going to work with the animals to get revenge. Then make an evil character and have him join the group. That's the best you can do in this situation.
pres_man 02-19-04, 03:37 PM	And I guess the party doesn't deserve to die if the person really was a bandit and the bandits came and overwhelmed the PCs.:rolleyes: Deserves to die? No, they don't, but the bandits are probably evil, so what does derserving matter to them. For good characters it should matter though. Let's hear it for true stupid. (: Beat his skull in a little? Yeah, that's good alright.:rolleyes: Actually it is. It is a way to get someone's attention and to show you are serious. It is also something a fighter type (which a barbarian is) would naturally feel at home with versus say a long talk about their feelings. You might be surprised as to how much a good smack in the mouth does to set someone on the straight and narrow. Evil action. . . rendering someone helpless and allowing them to die. A form of murder actually. Here try it again: 1. Tie up the monk while he is sleeping, remove all magic equipment, take him back to the forest, untie him and leave him to be dealt with. Just because he doesn't have any gear does not mean he is helpless, especially a monk whose unarmed strike is usually better than most characters armed strikes.
Ogre Mage 02-19-04, 07:26 PM	Unfortunately, no Neutral Good Druid should stand for such action. They killed a seemingly helpless, defenseless being which did not attack the party. It might be time for a new character. Perhaps at best, you could demand them to make some sort of restitution. We actually had a similar situation happen in our group. Our party was riding a ferry boat to a prison to rescue a fellow priest who had been unjustly imprisoned there. Our CN rogue wondered if the ferryman might secretly be in league with the bad guys who took control of the prison. So while he was ferrying us across the water, he slit his throat. Needless to say, my NG cleric was outraged by this, but did nothing at that moment because we were in the midst of a mission to rescue a fellow priest. After our mission was completed, she told the rogue flat out she would no longer be healing an evildoer like himself and it was time for him to get lost. Unfortunately, this rogue had a very high bluff skill and told her he saw the error of his ways and would make penance with the church. Totally insincere, but she believed him. :(
Madmartigan 02-19-04, 08:06 PM	Well ... I'm sort of in a conundrum. I don't really want to kill the monk, I don't see how I can do it honorably or really the moral backing behind it. I do however like the idea of removing his equipment as he has quite a bit of it. Unfortunatly, I would probably end up giving it to the animals as restitution for what happened, and that would mean less treasure over all for the party and thus a weaker party on the whole. I also don't see a plausable way in which I could take the treasure for myself in such a manner, that just doesn't fit my character in the end. But if I remove his items, I'd need to find a way so that no one knows about it and the monk doesn't wake up. At anyrate, I wouldn't be putting him in the jungle, helpless or not as he'd almost certainly die, but it's an option. Perhaps I should demand restitution, but not do any of it myself.... Anyhow, do you all have any suggestion on how a druid might be able to remove all the monk's items without him waking up, or any other ways to do some leveling of the playing field? I can't really withhold healing, and such and I don't really have any magical items to note.... (lvl 6 Druid, level 8 Barb/Ranger) I'll post as soon as I find out more about this situation, or if I talk to the animals. -Mad.
Glak 02-20-04, 09:40 AM	no, your character is good. Making the monk pay a fine is not sufficient to make up for the fact that he killed an innocent. You have to kill the monk, or at least imprison him for a very long time. This should not be seen as a civil lawsuit, but a criminal matter. The other characters are accomplises, so they should be killed too. Good alignment means you follow through. You can't give him a slap on the wrist. Your characters and his are enemies forever (barring alignment change). You cannot adventure together. Your DM should enforce this by changing your alignment towards evil. It is already neutral now.
Nytmare 02-20-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Glak no, your character is good. Making the monk pay a fine is not sufficient to make up for the fact that he killed an innocent. You have to kill the monk, or at least imprison him for a very long time. This should not be seen as a civil lawsuit, but a criminal matter. The other characters are accomplises, so they should be killed too. Good alignment means you follow through. You can't give him a slap on the wrist. Your characters and his are enemies forever (barring alignment change). You cannot adventure together. Your DM should enforce this by changing your alignment towards evil. It is already neutral now. Being good doesn't mean that he must hunt down all wrong doers, all it has to mean is that he knows the difference between wrong and right and tends to chose 'right'. There are also still reasons why you could adventure with the group, you just have to come up with them. Also I don't see how any of this follows through to the DM insisting that the Druid of all characters should suffer an alignment change. The rest of the party, if they're not there or on their way already, should probably start the slow march to the dark side. The problem I see is that it would appear as though the DM doesn't agree with you and has already "sided" with the other players. Throwing in an NPC to incite the other players to ostracize you is a down right obnoxious thing for the DM to do. And to encourage this type of behavior with the paladin, or at least actively turn a blind eye to it is insane. That doesn't leave many fun options, and I'm not even sure that you making a new "evil" character would solve any of these problems. With the group mindset as it is, I'd be afraid that they'd just carry over the same animosity to the new character and try to intimidate him into exclusion. The best outcome I see is to play it in more of a passive agressive way, maybe tieing your beliefs into more of a 'karmic' system of justice.
Madmartigan 02-20-04, 10:17 PM	Well, several interesting things have come about and spurred me onto a decision. I recently found out that several people, ooc, in my dnd group think of my character as unfair, or unbalanced - something that caught me totally off guard as I've been more worried in the recent events about the weaknesses of my character and developing his personality. Anyhow, these concerns I don't think carry much merit and if I were to guess (out of character), those that are giving complaint the most are most likely the ones who want to kill my PC and are finding it possibly more difficult in theory than they would like. At the moment, I really do not see how I can continue with some of the individuals at the moment and I trust those who trust me back enought to rely upon them to complete the current quest (this was the only thing holding me back from leaving the party). At any rate, I will be having our party cleric Plane Shift me back to the Earth Plane, where I will begin the necessary rituals for my character to become a Stone Lord. My cohort will be comming along as well in order to help boost my chances of survival and what not. Just a few comments to make. Our DM is quite good and most of the problems he might have are more or less connected to the fact our party sometimes consists of 8 players, and more than once of around 11; that and the disparity of alignments in our group. Also, it turns out that my actions, or at least the cumulation of various events have helped to cause the likely event of a split of the party (probably a good thing) occuring after this quest has been finished. I'd also like to defend my own attempts at playing an alignment of NG, and it is in these interests that I've been asking for advice. If my DM were to say because of whats happend I was shifted over towards neutral, I would be quite angry, might not even play with him anymore. But, these comments aside, the advice has been immensely helpful. -Mad.