Dual Magic Class Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dual Magic Class Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RedTopHat
06-11-07, 08:56 PM I'm trying to find a good prestige class that wields two mage classes at the same time. My DM doesn't like Mystic Theurge and Fochlucan Lyrist(CA) so I'm looking for more alternatives which me may be fine with. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be happy.
Salla
06-11-07, 08:57 PM The only other one I'm immediately familiar with his the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage.

What doesn't he like about the Mystic Theurge or the Fochlucan Lyrist?
RedTopHat
06-11-07, 09:18 PM He thinks of them over powered because they allow the PC to have to two spells lists, or that's what he has led me to believe from what he has told me.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-11-07, 09:26 PM Yes, they do. However, you have two spell lists in which you're effectively set back by three caster levels, which is an enormous power reduction (you're always one or two full spell levels behind, and have relatively few spells of your best levels compared to those single list casters who have lots of those and some of higher level). You're also dealing with the need for two casting stats, which is very costly compared to maintaining just one.

The end result is that the Mystic Theurge is ultimately a much weaker character than the pure cleric or wizard. I don't know whether the bard variant was bolstered a bit to deal with this, but if he's concerned about you being overpowered, then the Mystic Theurge is more apt to ensure that you're not than to cause you to be.
Salla
06-11-07, 09:28 PM ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Take a peek over at the Character Optimizaton boards sometime. The mystic theurge is a perennial joke to the heavy-duty powergamers. :)
RedTopHat
06-11-07, 09:37 PM ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Take a peek over at the Character Optimizaton boards sometime. The mystic theurge is a perennial joke to the heavy-duty powergamers. :)

I just feel as if I am kind of getting limited, but I respect what he is trying to do, so I'm searching for another class.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
06-11-07, 09:48 PM Wont he just have the same problem with any Dual caster? choose your battles.
Candin
06-11-07, 09:50 PM Ultimate Magus.

Of course, if he has a problem with two spell lists, you're probably wasting yoru time.
StevenO
06-11-07, 11:05 PM Besides the Ultimate Magus to combine spontaneous and book based arcane magic the Complete Mage also has two "theurge" classes for the Warlock if you DM is open to that.

As long as the truly exploitive builds of MT and F'Lyrist are avoided (you know the ones using other PrCs that grant 9th level spells) they aren't that powerful. If building from level one survival for those characters is often challenging as there those PrCs take a few levels to bring the character back up to speed. Actually, an Ultimate Magus using Practiced Spellcaster gives up the least.
RedTopHat
06-11-07, 11:39 PM Wont he just have the same problem with any Dual caster? choose your battles.

I'm going to try and persuade him, and i it does come down to it, I might just go 10 and 10 but it seems like such a waste.
Salla
06-12-07, 12:40 AM I'm going to try and persuade him, and i it does come down to it, I might just go 10 and 10 but it seems like such a waste.

If it comes down to that, play Cleric 20 with the Magic domain ... you can use scrolls, wands, and staves like a wizard of half your level, so you can at least play 'wizard in a stick'.
RedTopHat
06-12-07, 12:56 AM That sounds like an interesting solution, but I really like the class for some reason. Mystic is pretty cool for a Prestige.
Salla
06-12-07, 12:58 AM That sounds like an interesting solution, but I really like the class for some reason. Mystic is pretty cool for a Prestige.

Cool, but weak. I've played one before, and believe me, I very soon sat there thinking, "If I were a single classed wizard, I'd have fireball right now ..."
RedTopHat
06-12-07, 09:01 PM Cool, but weak. I've played one before, and believe me, I very soon sat there thinking, "If I were a single classed wizard, I'd have fireball right now ..."

He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc?
windscar18
06-12-07, 09:15 PM ULTIMATE MAGUS, BLAAAAAARG.

Well, as for a good arcane PrC, there's a couple. The most immediate one that jumps to mind is the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, as it is annoying as hell for DM's to deal with (DM: The Dragon charges. IotSV: I raise a Warding. DM: @#)$(*)(@*#$, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO :( ). Gishes are ALWAYS fun (with Abjurant Champion and Swiftblades...mmmmmm.....)
Everdreaming
06-12-07, 11:22 PM If psionics is allowed you can go Cerebremancer, or Psychic Theurge(Minds Eye). Also, I particularly like the warlock theurge classes(Complete Mage).
RedTopHat
06-13-07, 08:01 AM We don't play psionics. Everyone in the group agreed it would be best to use the play types we already have, although most of us agree psionics is nice and balanced.
JellyPooga
06-13-07, 08:15 AM Book based or Spontaneous?

Book Based: I've always liked the Geometer myself (Comp Arc)
Spontaneous: Dracolexi and Dragonheart Mage (RotD) are nice and tasty for Draconic based Sorcerers

Have you considered the Geomancer PrC? It is a dual entry requirement, but only progresses one casting level at a time (so if you went into the class with Druid/Wizard levels at 4/4, by the time you max out the PrC, your casting would be as 9/9 if you split it equally) Your DM might be more happy with that. Essentially, it's no different spellcasting-wise from levelling up as 2 Classes alternately.
ZigMover
06-13-07, 09:11 AM He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc?

IMO. He is a bad DM for not allowing you to do that. You are substantially weaker, all the work is up to you, and well he should be able to counter you with high SR monsters. But alas, stuck up DMs ruin the day again.

A great Prc for Arcane that I love is the Elemental Savant, Abjurant Champion, or the Argent Savant. They allow for a lot of specialization on certain types of spells.
northern_bear
06-13-07, 10:04 AM IMO. He is a bad DM for not allowing you to do that. You are substantially weaker, all the work is up to you, and well he should be able to counter you with high SR monsters. But alas, stuck up DMs ruin the day again.

Back off budy. The DM made a judgement call, and restricted a player from taking a class that he felt would be too powerful in his campain.

There's nothing wrong with that. And it doesn't make him a bad DM. You can disagree with his reasoning, but there is nothing wrong with his actions.

In fact, I'd say that's what good DMs do.

If he thought it was overpowered, but he decided to allow it in play anyway, just because it happens to appear in a WoC book, then that would make him a bad DM.
northern_bear
06-13-07, 10:10 AM P.S. And oh ya, I sort of agree with the DM on this one.

Just because it doesn't see a lot of action as a broken build on character optimisation boards doesn't mean it is weak.

Just because the single class wizard or cleric beats it in one on one combat doesn't mean it is weak.

Over the stretch of a campange, and multiple encounters, it gets more spells, and a much more diversified spell selection. This makes it a lot more versatile, and useful to the party, then a single class wizard or cleric.

In my games, I'd consider Mystic Thurge a more useful character class than a single progression caster. So I don't allow it.
JellyPooga
06-13-07, 10:25 AM Though I sort of agree with his DM, it is his call after all, I disagree on the whole because he's banning because he thinks something is overpowered as a general rule, rather than based on the specific character.

I'm a big supporter of allowing players to play whatever they want because very little in any RPG is 'broken', but if a particular character is broken/unbalancing, then I'll disallow that particular character.

Obviously I don't know the specifics of this situation, but I'm in support of the OP on this one (nominally). (Note that my final suggestion was to come to a kind of compromise of a 'weaker' PrC)
RealSorceror
06-13-07, 10:26 AM Has nobody suggested the Arcane Heirophant? I love Druid/Wizard!

Theres also Anima Mage and Noctomancer if you're allowed to use Tome of Magic.

Can you use Magic of Inarnum? Theres some good ones in there, too.

But ya, if you can't take a dual casting class, just take Geomancer. It'll allow the two classes to mesh, but you'll still only be taking one at a time.
RedTopHat
06-13-07, 04:20 PM The Geometer looks nice, and I can Take Fochlucan Lyrist, but if I take it I'll end up with a 40% exp penalty. ( I'm not big on bard spells, but bards are nice.)

I think he has the right to decide what he wants and what he doesn't want in his campaign. House rules for a reason. I have fun in his campaign although I die all the time ( I blame evil campaigns).

I usually play Wizards. I am more fond to them then Sorcerers. More spells and better in my opinion.
Chimaera2000
06-13-07, 04:38 PM He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc?

There are plenty of good arcane prestige classes. Here are a few:

Incantrix (Magic of Faerun)
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (Complete Arcane)
Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane)
Fatespinner (Complete Arcane)
Master Specialist (Complete Mage)
Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage)
Archmage (DMG)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RedTopHat 06-11-07, 08:56 PM	I'm trying to find a good prestige class that wields two mage classes at the same time. My DM doesn't like Mystic Theurge and Fochlucan Lyrist(CA) so I'm looking for more alternatives which me may be fine with. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be happy.
Salla 06-11-07, 08:57 PM	The only other one I'm immediately familiar with his the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage. What doesn't he like about the Mystic Theurge or the Fochlucan Lyrist?
RedTopHat 06-11-07, 09:18 PM	He thinks of them over powered because they allow the PC to have to two spells lists, or that's what he has led me to believe from what he has told me.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-11-07, 09:26 PM	Yes, they do. However, you have two spell lists in which you're effectively set back by three caster levels, which is an enormous power reduction (you're always one or two full spell levels behind, and have relatively few spells of your best levels compared to those single list casters who have lots of those and some of higher level). You're also dealing with the need for two casting stats, which is very costly compared to maintaining just one. The end result is that the Mystic Theurge is ultimately a much weaker character than the pure cleric or wizard. I don't know whether the bard variant was bolstered a bit to deal with this, but if he's concerned about you being overpowered, then the Mystic Theurge is more apt to ensure that you're not than to cause you to be.
Salla 06-11-07, 09:28 PM	... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Take a peek over at the Character Optimizaton boards sometime. The mystic theurge is a perennial joke to the heavy-duty powergamers. :)
RedTopHat 06-11-07, 09:37 PM	... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Take a peek over at the Character Optimizaton boards sometime. The mystic theurge is a perennial joke to the heavy-duty powergamers. :) I just feel as if I am kind of getting limited, but I respect what he is trying to do, so I'm searching for another class.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-11-07, 09:48 PM	Wont he just have the same problem with any Dual caster? choose your battles.
Candin 06-11-07, 09:50 PM	Ultimate Magus. Of course, if he has a problem with two spell lists, you're probably wasting yoru time.
StevenO 06-11-07, 11:05 PM	Besides the Ultimate Magus to combine spontaneous and book based arcane magic the Complete Mage also has two "theurge" classes for the Warlock if you DM is open to that. As long as the truly exploitive builds of MT and F'Lyrist are avoided (you know the ones using other PrCs that grant 9th level spells) they aren't that powerful. If building from level one survival for those characters is often challenging as there those PrCs take a few levels to bring the character back up to speed. Actually, an Ultimate Magus using Practiced Spellcaster gives up the least.
RedTopHat 06-11-07, 11:39 PM	Wont he just have the same problem with any Dual caster? choose your battles. I'm going to try and persuade him, and i it does come down to it, I might just go 10 and 10 but it seems like such a waste.
Salla 06-12-07, 12:40 AM	I'm going to try and persuade him, and i it does come down to it, I might just go 10 and 10 but it seems like such a waste. If it comes down to that, play Cleric 20 with the Magic domain ... you can use scrolls, wands, and staves like a wizard of half your level, so you can at least play 'wizard in a stick'.
RedTopHat 06-12-07, 12:56 AM	That sounds like an interesting solution, but I really like the class for some reason. Mystic is pretty cool for a Prestige.
Salla 06-12-07, 12:58 AM	That sounds like an interesting solution, but I really like the class for some reason. Mystic is pretty cool for a Prestige. Cool, but weak. I've played one before, and believe me, I very soon sat there thinking, "If I were a single classed wizard, I'd have fireball right now ..."
RedTopHat 06-12-07, 09:01 PM	Cool, but weak. I've played one before, and believe me, I very soon sat there thinking, "If I were a single classed wizard, I'd have fireball right now ..." He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc?
windscar18 06-12-07, 09:15 PM	ULTIMATE MAGUS, BLAAAAAARG. Well, as for a good arcane PrC, there's a couple. The most immediate one that jumps to mind is the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, as it is annoying as hell for DM's to deal with (DM: The Dragon charges. IotSV: I raise a Warding. DM: @#)$()(@#$, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO :( ). Gishes are ALWAYS fun (with Abjurant Champion and Swiftblades...mmmmmm.....)
Everdreaming 06-12-07, 11:22 PM	If psionics is allowed you can go Cerebremancer, or Psychic Theurge(Minds Eye). Also, I particularly like the warlock theurge classes(Complete Mage).
RedTopHat 06-13-07, 08:01 AM	We don't play psionics. Everyone in the group agreed it would be best to use the play types we already have, although most of us agree psionics is nice and balanced.
JellyPooga 06-13-07, 08:15 AM	Book based or Spontaneous? Book Based: I've always liked the Geometer myself (Comp Arc) Spontaneous: Dracolexi and Dragonheart Mage (RotD) are nice and tasty for Draconic based Sorcerers Have you considered the Geomancer PrC? It is a dual entry requirement, but only progresses one casting level at a time (so if you went into the class with Druid/Wizard levels at 4/4, by the time you max out the PrC, your casting would be as 9/9 if you split it equally) Your DM might be more happy with that. Essentially, it's no different spellcasting-wise from levelling up as 2 Classes alternately.
ZigMover 06-13-07, 09:11 AM	He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc? IMO. He is a bad DM for not allowing you to do that. You are substantially weaker, all the work is up to you, and well he should be able to counter you with high SR monsters. But alas, stuck up DMs ruin the day again. A great Prc for Arcane that I love is the Elemental Savant, Abjurant Champion, or the Argent Savant. They allow for a lot of specialization on certain types of spells.
northern_bear 06-13-07, 10:04 AM	IMO. He is a bad DM for not allowing you to do that. You are substantially weaker, all the work is up to you, and well he should be able to counter you with high SR monsters. But alas, stuck up DMs ruin the day again. Back off budy. The DM made a judgement call, and restricted a player from taking a class that he felt would be too powerful in his campain. There's nothing wrong with that. And it doesn't make him a bad DM. You can disagree with his reasoning, but there is nothing wrong with his actions. In fact, I'd say that's what good DMs do. If he thought it was overpowered, but he decided to allow it in play anyway, just because it happens to appear in a WoC book, then that would make him a bad DM.
northern_bear 06-13-07, 10:10 AM	P.S. And oh ya, I sort of agree with the DM on this one. Just because it doesn't see a lot of action as a broken build on character optimisation boards doesn't mean it is weak. Just because the single class wizard or cleric beats it in one on one combat doesn't mean it is weak. Over the stretch of a campange, and multiple encounters, it gets more spells, and a much more diversified spell selection. This makes it a lot more versatile, and useful to the party, then a single class wizard or cleric. In my games, I'd consider Mystic Thurge a more useful character class than a single progression caster. So I don't allow it.
JellyPooga 06-13-07, 10:25 AM	Though I sort of agree with his DM, it is his call after all, I disagree on the whole because he's banning because he thinks something is overpowered as a general rule, rather than based on the specific character. I'm a big supporter of allowing players to play whatever they want because very little in any RPG is 'broken', but if a particular character is broken/unbalancing, then I'll disallow that particular character. Obviously I don't know the specifics of this situation, but I'm in support of the OP on this one (nominally). (Note that my final suggestion was to come to a kind of compromise of a 'weaker' PrC)
RealSorceror 06-13-07, 10:26 AM	Has nobody suggested the Arcane Heirophant? I love Druid/Wizard! Theres also Anima Mage and Noctomancer if you're allowed to use Tome of Magic. Can you use Magic of Inarnum? Theres some good ones in there, too. But ya, if you can't take a dual casting class, just take Geomancer. It'll allow the two classes to mesh, but you'll still only be taking one at a time.
RedTopHat 06-13-07, 04:20 PM	The Geometer looks nice, and I can Take Fochlucan Lyrist, but if I take it I'll end up with a 40% exp penalty. ( I'm not big on bard spells, but bards are nice.) I think he has the right to decide what he wants and what he doesn't want in his campaign. House rules for a reason. I have fun in his campaign although I die all the time ( I blame evil campaigns). I usually play Wizards. I am more fond to them then Sorcerers. More spells and better in my opinion.
Chimaera2000 06-13-07, 04:38 PM	He won't be persuaded, so I'll accept his judgement. I really liked the class though. Any good arcane Prc? There are plenty of good arcane prestige classes. Here are a few: Incantrix (Magic of Faerun) Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (Complete Arcane) Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) Fatespinner (Complete Arcane) Master Specialist (Complete Mage) Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) Archmage (DMG)