Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drow813 02-29-08, 04:07 PM	So I'm starting a fresh campaign tommorow night and I need to come up with a level 4 character. Was thinking of a duel wielding class like swashbuckler and then pick up a sweet prestige class later. My question is how can I turn duel-wielding from a low level gimp into an awesome character?:confused:
Zherog 02-29-08, 04:12 PM	From a mathematical point of view, you'll get the best mileage out of dual-wielding if you have attacks that add bonus damage to any attack you make. Some examples of this that are available at low level are sneak attack and a ranger's favored enemy bonus. So, that's how you get the most out of it. A rogue 3/Swashbuckler 1, for example, would get an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage, which often (but not always) makes the -2 penalty worthwhile.
Talisman 02-29-08, 05:32 PM	The rogue is a classic choice, since it combines a high Dex with the extra-damage-per-attack that makes a TWFer useful. Fighter is not a bad option if you have the Dex for it. I recommend dual-wielding identical weapons...this gets you twice the mileage out of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Power Critical, and all the other "one type of weapon" feats.
Zherog 02-29-08, 05:59 PM	Again, purely from a mathematical point of view... Fighter seems like a good choice because of all the bonus feats. But the damage output for a fighter with a 2-handed weapon and 2 points of Power Attack (so they attack at the same penalty) is actually higher. My search-fu is weak, but there's definitely threads around the forum about the math. To get a mathematical boost from TWF, you need to have bonus damage. Sneak attack is the most common, but there's definitely others.
Drag0nUL 02-29-08, 06:07 PM	I agree. You should never dual wield(from an optimization point of view) unless you have some source to get significant extra damage from sneak attack(I really don;t think that Weapon Specialization or Favored Enemy add enough damage to make TWF worthwhile). I for one prefer Sneak Attack, Arcane Strike or a combination of the two.
Zherog 02-29-08, 08:17 PM	Ranger favored enemy can, but it's a pretty specific scenario. If you know up front that your DM's campaign is going to heavily focus on one creature type - such as undead - then a ranger can do well by making that their favored enemy, and bumping it up every time they gain a new enemy. So, at 1st level it's +2, at 5th it's +4, at 10th it's +6, and so on. It's obviously not as good as sneak attack, since a 10th level rogue (for example) is getting +5d6 (avg 17.5) - and probably against more foes. But, if a ranger can get their best favored enemy around half the time, it's a good deal to choose TWF.
Elsydeon 02-29-08, 09:18 PM	Doesn't mean fighter isn't an ok 2 level dip for feats, though. Which would make it a good starting point, also... Hard to go wrong with fighter levels when you're that low of a level. I guess you might even dip monk 1 for flurry and wield something that works with it...
Anansi 02-29-08, 10:08 PM	Something else to consider is to try using a double weapon, instead of a separate weapon in each hand.
runestar 02-29-08, 10:11 PM	Hard to go wrong with fighter levels when you're that low of a level. Actually, low lv fighter is the easiest to screw up. You get most your feats within the first few lvs (assuming human, 3 at 1st lv, and up to 6 at 4th lv, out of a total of 19 feats over 20 lvs). Thus, the first few fighter lvs are most crucial, because they will determine the path your fighter will take down the road. Screw that up, and you find that you cannot readily qualify for higher tier feats, meaning that you end up even more screwed. Plus, with a ton of feats, it is very easy to go haywire with your selection. Get distracted by anime shows and end up taking monkey grip+TWFing and you are pretty much a gone gander. Especially when you should be taking more utilitarian feats like improved trip, power attack or combat reflexes. Simply put - there is very little room for error.:)
Elsydeon 03-01-08, 12:54 AM	If you're trying to make a decent character your fighter has no path. You're taking 2 levels of fighter for bonus feats to achieve a fighting style quickly, then swapping to rogue. Or, starting at level 4, Rogue 1, Fighter 2, Rogue 1... or Monk 1 if you want to go ahead and get that optional dip out of the way. I'm not sure how useful the flurry is or if it has some armor limitation, but it definitely serves as a save booster. The bonus feats aren't terrible either, whichever you pick.
Pangeon 03-05-08, 02:32 AM	I'm fond of Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 1, myself. You get int to damage with both of your weapons (which, for you, will likely be as good as, or better than, Weapon Spec, without needing Weapon Focus,) and sneak attack, making for a nice little high damage TWFer. Continue with Rogue for evasion and more sneak attack, and strongly consider taking Daring Outlaw (CS) at 6th level, which will let your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack, grace, and dodge. Past that, continue with Swashbuckler for BAB or Rogue for special abilities, or a full BAB sneak attack class, like Invisible Blade. Another handy variant is the Shield of Blades ability from PHBII, which will give you a nice bonus to AC when TWFing, if I recall correctly. I don't have the book on me at the moment, so I can't fill you in on the specifics, but I'm pretty sure it's a good deal better than your Dodge class feature, which you give up for shield of blades. Good luck with your character, let us know how it works out for you. :D
MergedLoki 03-05-08, 02:38 AM	I personally think it kinda ruins the game (IMO) to think 'well mathimatically i do the most dmg with this so screw everything else' if you wanna power level go play a video game. One reason i've always enjoyed dnd is the roleplaying aspect of it and character development as oppose to 'sweet i do +10 dmg now im a tank' I usually play rangers, w/the 2 wp fighting style. and even at low levels i've never found the -2 penalty that much of problem (assuming ur using a light offhand weapon). Usually my strength bonus, at worst, compensates for the penalty. So ok at level 2, 3, you might miss a bit more than the single handed longsword wielding fighter, but I personally have always liked the (mental) image of the 2 blade wielding ranger (or wahtever class) diving into battle.
Arcanar 03-05-08, 04:25 AM	I personally think it kinda ruins the game (IMO) to think 'well mathimatically i do the most dmg with this so screw everything else' if you wanna power level go play a video game. One reason i've always enjoyed dnd is the roleplaying aspect of it and character development as oppose to 'sweet i do +10 dmg now im a tank' Weird... In my experience, thinking mathematically about things like that is a crucial part of roleplaying. Can you imagine a professional soldier who is NOT trying to be really good at what he/she does? Being good at ones role in the group and taking pride in it is definitely roleplaying in my book. I guess my viewpoint stems from the fact that in our games, adventurers tend to be professionals, people who have knowingly chosen this lifestyle with all its pros and cons. They plan their own growth just like you would plan your career in the military (E.g. OK, I only need Sniper Qualification and four more independent parachute drops - then I can try to pass SOFOR qualifications). In any case - this is all IN ADDITION to having a colorful and memorable personality, goals and aspirations, so in many ways trying to be optimized in game adds to the roleplaying experience, not vice versa. To the OP: Can you use Tome of Battle? If yes, Swordsage/Swashbuckler with Shadow Blade feat is the way to go. Shadow Blade lets you add your DEX to damage rolls with Shadow Hand weapons (all finessable). TWF character these days should usually be DEX-focused. Depending on your DM, you could qualify for Daring Outlaw feat using Assasin's Stance and get many useful maneuvers to boot. If not, Swordsage/Swashbuckler/Rogue is still good. You can also search for the Daring Swordsage build to get further ideas.
Zherog 03-05-08, 07:58 AM	I personally think it kinda ruins the game (IMO) to think 'well mathimatically i do the most dmg with this so screw everything else' if you wanna power level go play a video game. One reason i've always enjoyed dnd is the roleplaying aspect of it and character development as oppose to 'sweet i do +10 dmg now im a tank' Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive? Why can't I have a character who is strong mathematically and well roleplayed?
Wargamer 03-05-08, 08:29 AM	The thing is, people are not mathematically strong. I know, through simple logic, that a sledgehammer will hurt a lot more than a one-handed hammer. However, I also know that, in theory, a warrior with two hammers and sufficient skill to use them together is a lot more dangerous. After all, if a guy comes at you with a sledge, you only need to dodge one weapon. If your opponent is swinging a pair of katana around, then you are in for a world of pain (Tenchu 1... the fourth boss haunts me to this day). There is mathematics, and there's metagaming.
Belkar 03-05-08, 11:25 AM	Things to consider: 1) "Extra" Damage is major plus for TWF. TWF is a very cool, thematic, "role-playing" ;) choice that isn't as effective as two-hand fighters, usually. Maximize it as best you can. 2) High Dex is necessary for TWF feats. As such, Weapon Finesse is brilliant by helping you avoid MAD. As a corollary - you should wield 2 light weapons instead of a double weapon for 2 reasons: Firstly, Weapon Finesse would only apply to the "off-hand" part of the double-weapon, which is the only end considered "light". Secondly, only one double-weapon (quarterstaff) isn't exotic. You're going to be feat poor/feat dedicated, and you don't need to waste one on EWP. Considering these points, here's my build for you (assuming a human): 1 Rogue 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light weapon of choice) 2 Swashbuckler 1 - [Weapon Finesse] gained for free as lvl 1 swashbuckler 3 Swashbuckler 2 - Daring Outlaw 4 Swashbuckler 3 - Pump as much as you can into Dex and Int. Wield identical weapons in both hands (the weapon you chose with Weapon Focus). Daring outlaw will immediately bump your 1d6 Sneak Attack (from 1st level rogue) to 2d6, and this will now scale as your progress in swashbuckler. 3rd level in Swashbuckler gives you Int to damage. Progress with further levels in Swashbucker for the HP and BAB. You may be tempted to dip Fighter levels later on for feats - but each level of Swashbuckler you [I]don't take is one less level that your sneak attack damage improves. Daring Outlaw will keep your Sneak Attack damage scaling with your Swashbuckler levels. ;) From a roleplaying perspective, this is a character who started on the wrong side of the tracks (maybe a thief or gutter-rat) who found himself to be a better (maybe even a dashing) brigand. Maybe a wise and charismatic warrior found him picking his pocket one day, and decided to teach him right from wrong and used his natural inclinations to hone his combat ability. If he's evil - maybe he found brigandry a more attractive choice than a thief. What's the foundation of the character, though, is that he started as a scoundrel, and moved toward a martial bent - though his early history has influenced his fighting style greatly.
Zherog 03-05-08, 11:47 AM	Secondly, only one double-weapon (quarterstaff) isn't exotic. You're going to be feat poor/feat dedicated, and you don't need to waste one on EWP. Yes and no. Remember that racial weapons (such as the urgrosh) are considered martial rather than exotic to members of that race. So that presents a few alternatives (assuming, of course, you can gain Martial Weapon Prof. ;) ). 1 Rogue 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light weapon of choice) A rogue doesn't qualify for Weapon Focus at first level, due to the BAB pre-req. Otherwise, I agree with your post.
Sunic_Flames 03-05-08, 12:06 PM	And the same simple logic says that being hit with one weapon that really freaking hurts is worse than two weapons that each inflict minor wounds. Which is more of a threat? The guy with an RPG, or the one dual wielding BB pistols? Arcanar: :cookie: for you sir!
Belkar 03-05-08, 12:09 PM	Yes and no. Remember that racial weapons (such as the urgrosh) are considered martial rather than exotic to members of that race. So that presents a few alternatives (assuming, of course, you can gain Martial Weapon Prof. ;) ).This is very true. But the main turnoff isn't the feat - it's the fact that Weapon Finesse is only usable with one half of the weapon. ;) A rogue doesn't qualify for Weapon Focus at first level, due to the BAB pre-req. Otherwise, I agree with your post. Hot Shot! You're right! [why do I always forget about that? lol...] OK. An ammended build: 1 Swashbuckler 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light weapon of choice), [Weapon Finesse] 2 Rogue 1 - [Sneak Attack +1d6] 3 Swashbuckler 2 - Daring Outlaw, [Sneak Attack +2d6] 4 Swashbuckler 3 - What you'll have here is a 4th level character that can TWF in a full round (Assuming a +3 in Dex and Int and a +1 in Str) at +5/+5 - or +7 for a single attack. Get into flanking for sneak attack, and it's +7/+7 or +9 and 3d6+4 in damage [I]per strike (1d6 light weapon + 2d6 SA + 3 Int +1 Str). Max out ranks in tumble to get into flanking with less risk.
MergedLoki 03-05-08, 02:25 PM	Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive? Why can't I have a character who is strong mathematically and well roleplayed? I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, cut me some slack. i posted that while half a sleep (nightshift, around 2 - 3 am lol). *shrug* I just personally know (wel knew now) a few players who would basically just attempt to powerlevel, get the highest stats/scores in whatever they could, and after a while it got annoying (as a dm) to come up w/any challenges that could well.. challenge them. it was a half comatose rant feel free 2 ignore it.
Zherog 03-05-08, 02:30 PM	No sweat. :) You just happened to strike pretty close to a pet peeve of mine that seems to come up way too much -- the idea that "roleplaying" and "strong mechanics" are mutually exclusive. There's a difference between players getting the best combination out of two classes that synergize well (such as rogue and swashbuckler), and players who attempt to bring Pun-Pun to the table.
Pangeon 03-05-08, 04:27 PM	3 Swashbuckler 2 - Daring Outlaw Also, you need 2d6 sneak attack for Daring outlaw. Maybe fit Weapon Focus in at third level, something like Improved Buckler Defense or Improved Initiative at first. Other than that, all great advice. :D
Belkar 03-06-08, 09:40 AM	Also, you need 2d6 sneak attack for Daring outlaw. Maybe fit Weapon Focus in at third level, something like Improved Buckler Defense or Improved Initiative at first. Other than that, all great advice. :D Yeah crap. Not that great advise, apparently...lol... yeah I got home last night and whipped out Complete Scoundrel, and was like, "2d6? Aaaaw, crap..." Ammended, ammended builds: Version 1: For when damage is more important. 1 Rogue 1 - [Sneak Attack +1d6], [Massive Skill Points at lvl 1], Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative 2 Swashbuckler 1 - [Weapon Finesse] 3 Rogue 2 - Weapon Focus (light weapon of choice) 4 Rogue 3 - [Sneak Attack +2d6] Full Attack*: +5/+5, 3d6+4/3d6+3. AC: 17 (10 + 4 [chain shirt] + 3 [Dex]) Version 2: For when HP are more important. 1 Swashbuckler 1 - Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light weapon of choice), [Weapon Finesse] 2 Rogue 1 - [Sneak Attack +1d6] 3 Swashbuckler 2 - Improved Initiative 4 Swashbuckler 3 - [Int to Damage] Full Attack*: +5/+5, 2d6+4/2d6+3. AC: 17 (10 + 4 [chain shirt] + 3 [Dex]) And just for the heck of it, because I was inspired even more by complete scoundrel ;) : Version 0: The duelist. Non-TWF, focusing on precision damage and combat defense. 1 Swashbuckler 1 - [Weapon Finesse], Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (rapier/shortsword) 2 Rogue 1 - [Sneak Attack +1d6] 3 Swashbuckler 2 - Deadly Defense 4 Swashbuckler 3 - [Int to damage] This isn't a TWF, so he can afford to take -2 to hit with combat expertise (and getting a nice AC bump as well) to use deadly defense. It also won't cost you a full round to maximize your damage potential. Single Attack*: +5, 2d6+4. AC: 19 (10 + 4 [chain shirt] + 3 [Dex] +2 [Combat Expertise]) *assuming a weapon that deals 1d6 of base damage, and a score of 16 in both Int and Dex, and a 12 in Cha.
pmurray@bigpond.com 03-06-08, 10:40 AM	Consider dual wielding Kukris (or rapiers), grabbing 3 levels of rogue, and taking Telling Blow from the PHB. Telling blow allows you to add your sneak attack damage whenever you score a crit. Power Crit and Improved crit after that. Then grab one level of a martial adept class and "Blood in the Water" stance. +1 each crit, and it stacks indefinitely.
Belkar 03-06-08, 11:35 AM	Consider dual wielding Kukris (or rapiers), grabbing 3 levels of rogue, and taking Telling Blow from the PHB. Telling blow allows you to add your sneak attack damage whenever you score a crit. Power Crit and Improved crit after that. Then grab one level of a martial adept class and "Blood in the Water" stance. +1 each crit, and it stacks indefinitely. This is a good suggestion - but recall that if you dual wield rapiers, you'll be at a -4/-4 instead of -2/-2. Rapiers (though usable with weapon finesse) aren't light weapons. They're one-handed. And you need a light weapon weapon in your off-hand to be at -2/-2.
Zherog 03-06-08, 12:03 PM	This is a good suggestion - but recall that if you dual wield rapiers, you'll be at a -4/-4 instead of -2/-2. Rapiers (though usable with weapon finesse) aren't light weapons. They're one-handed. And you need a light weapon weapon in your off-hand to be at -2/-2. However... there's a feat in Complete Adventurer called Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, that allows you to treat a one-handed weapon in the off-hand as though it were a light weapon. Of course, now we're turning the build into something that's very feat intensive. ;)
runestar 03-06-08, 07:01 PM	Depending on how you interpret daring outlaw, you can substitute rogue lvs with swordsage lvs. There is a 3rd lv shadow hand stance which grants 2d6 sneak attack (this also paves the way for the shadow blade feat).
Moosh Nailo 03-07-08, 01:34 AM	What about ToB's Crusader? With Furious Counterstrike active, the penalties aren't so much of an issue anymore. Also, with the martial spirit stance, you're healing extra with every additional hit, no?
kelvinaw273 03-07-08, 08:18 AM	Personally I would say WF is worth it if you aren't going for a Power Attack fighter. Sometimes it's worth it if you ARE. Sure, you lose on the chance to hit, but then you get two rolls, so unless you are fighting something that you need an unadjusted 19-20 to hit without TWF, your chances of scoring a hit and inflicting damage are always better with two attempts. Even if you aren't going for a DEX based fighter, TWF can still be good - use two medium weapons and Power Attack and against most low-to-moderate AC foes your average damage is still better. A few feats and you can change your second weapon to a defensive bonus (suddenly, Defender weapons look good!) on the occasions that you meet a foe with high AC you can instead boost your AC and clobber them with the other weapon with no penalty.
Zherog 03-07-08, 11:12 AM	Even if you aren't going for a DEX based fighter, TWF can still be good - use two medium weapons and Power Attack and against most low-to-moderate AC foes your average damage is still better. Except you need a 15 Dex to take the first TWF feat (unless you grab two levels of ranger, of course). Barring rolling extreme stats, if you're going to bump your Dex up to 15, you might as well make it your primary stat.